2 weapon fighting [Archive] - Wizards Community

2 weapon fighting [Archive] - Wizards Community

Post/Author/DateTime Post
Coren
05-01-06, 02:12 AM Can anyone think of a good reason I shouldn't combine all the 2 weapon fighting feats into one? Been thinking of doing that for a while and now that I saw 2 weapon rend for phbII I now have something to give the ranger for his 3rd bonus feat.
Xeviat-DM
05-01-06, 04:10 AM Yes I can: Long ago I once thought that I should do this, but then I began to test it out. First off, as a DM with this option, there was next to no reason not to take it, along with weapon finesse, for any melee rogue. Secondly, as a player, too many players began to take it, and it overshadowed the others. Thirdly, as far as balance was concerned, it wasn't comparable to other feats' damage out put.

The math is around the boards somewhere, but without search it would take me a long time to google it and find it. After two years of working on it, I've recently settled on a new fix; one that is quite simple but solves much of the problems:

Two-Weapon Fighting (no feat): Gain an extra attack with your off-hand weapon when ever you make a full attack with your primary hand.

Two-Weapon Fighting (feat): Gain an extra attack with your off-hand weapon when ever you make a standard attack or a full attack with your primary hand (thus you can move and attack twice).

Improved Two-Weapon Fighting (second feat, BAB +6): Gain a full attack with your off-hand weapon when ever you make a full attack with your primary hand.

Oddly enough, because of the attack penalties, gaining the second off-hand attack actually increases your damage more than gaining the first off-hand attack; this is because the first off-hand attack comes with penalties to the primary hand attack.

To help TWFing even more, I've reintroduced Ambidexterity:

Ambidexterity (Feat, Dex 15 requirement; reduce TWFing Dex requirement to 13): Deal full strength damage with off-hand; no longer suffer additional penalty for wielding a one-handed off-hand weapon.

This feat allows alternate types of TWFers to be created, such as a barbarian or a dervish (like Drizzt); not all TWFers are small weapon users or fencers, nor should people have to wait to take a PrC to gain this ability (since a larger weapon really only increases damage by 1 generally).
Phoenix Knight
05-01-06, 10:55 AM The math is around the boards somewhere, but without search it would take me a long time to google it and find it. After two years of working on it, I've recently settled on a new fix; one that is quite simple but solves much of the problems:

We had a rather long debate about this, huh? I like your new fix. I might consider using that (if I'm not running Iron Heroes).

What do you do for the ranger combat style?
Coren
05-01-06, 02:36 PM I haven't noticed 2wf overshadowing 2 handed weapons at all. I'd personally say that 2 handed weapons have the advantage when it comes to things like power attack and enchanting prices. Furthermore, 2wf takes a big hit when it comes to things like damage reduction.
Xeviat-DM
05-02-06, 01:32 AM We had a rather long debate about this, huh? I like your new fix. I might consider using that (if I'm not running Iron Heroes).

What do you do for the ranger combat style?

I dropped ranger combat style ... moved evasion to 2nd, and added uncanny dodge at 6th, and improved uncanny dodge at 12th (put in improved evasion at 10th).
Steel Cobra
05-02-06, 03:42 PM Makes sence, I really like the new feat and everything, but I have one question for you. Your ambidexterity feat completly removes the penalties for 2 weapon fighting?

So basically what would by saying to the players don't do 2 weapon fighting, I mean in no penalties, becides lower BAB wouldn't 1d8 and 1d6 from longsword and shortsword be better then 2d6 from greatsword? Or would you be able to wield 2d8 since no penalties mans no off hand has to be light?
Vaalingrade Ashland
05-02-06, 04:13 PM So basically what would by saying to the players don't do 2 weapon fighting, I mean in no penalties, becides lower BAB wouldn't 1d8 and 1d6 from longsword and shortsword be better then 2d6 from greatsword? Or would you be able to wield 2d8 since no penalties mans no off hand has to be light?
The 2HF gets to use the three feats you needed to spend to make 2WF viable to take the gloriously broken Power Attack, plus Weapon Focus and a feat of his choice.

So at level 9, when you're doing 2d8+4, the 2HF busts out with 2d6+19 (Power Attack for -5 to attack and +10 damage, plus Strength and a half on your (probably) Str 22 (+6)
Vaelan
05-02-06, 07:47 PM I houseruled away the penalty for Two-Weapon Fighting and ruled that Two-Weapon Fighting allows you to make an off hand attack any time you make an attack with your primary hand. Two-Weapon Fighting can only be used with two light weapons. I've also removed the line from Power Attack about light weapons not benefitting.

Since I ditched the Two-Weapon Ranger, I don't have any problems with this change.

To address the fact that Rogues benefit greatly from these changes, Improved Two-Weapon Fighting is required to apply precision-based damage to attacks made with a weapon in one's off hand.

The overall effect is that Two-Weapon Fighting is basically equivalent to using a two-handed weapon for your average Fighter. The only reason it requires a feat at all is because it gains twice the benefit from flat bonuses to damage. Rogues have to spend an extra feat to use Two-Weapon Fighting optimally, but my games tend to be a bit more lethal to foolhardy Rogues than most other people's, so I can see where some people may want to make Rogues pay a bit more.
Xeviat-DM
05-03-06, 04:37 PM Makes sence, I really like the new feat and everything, but I have one question for you. Your ambidexterity feat completly removes the penalties for 2 weapon fighting?

So basically what would by saying to the players don't do 2 weapon fighting, I mean in no penalties, becides lower BAB wouldn't 1d8 and 1d6 from longsword and shortsword be better then 2d6 from greatsword? Or would you be able to wield 2d8 since no penalties mans no off hand has to be light?

No, my Ambidexterity removes the additional penalty for wielding a one-handed off-hand weapon, and increases your off-hand strength damage to full. So instead of suffering a -4 attack penalty to your attacks when using a one-handed off-hand weapon, you only suffer a -2 penalty.

"Perfect" TWF should remove the -2 penalties, but I wouldn't want to see that as a TWFing feat until 12th level (though Improved Rapid Shot does it sooner).

Post/Author/DateTime	Post
Coren 05-01-06, 02:12 AM	Can anyone think of a good reason I shouldn't combine all the 2 weapon fighting feats into one? Been thinking of doing that for a while and now that I saw 2 weapon rend for phbII I now have something to give the ranger for his 3rd bonus feat.
Xeviat-DM 05-01-06, 04:10 AM	Yes I can: Long ago I once thought that I should do this, but then I began to test it out. First off, as a DM with this option, there was next to no reason not to take it, along with weapon finesse, for any melee rogue. Secondly, as a player, too many players began to take it, and it overshadowed the others. Thirdly, as far as balance was concerned, it wasn't comparable to other feats' damage out put. The math is around the boards somewhere, but without search it would take me a long time to google it and find it. After two years of working on it, I've recently settled on a new fix; one that is quite simple but solves much of the problems: Two-Weapon Fighting (no feat): Gain an extra attack with your off-hand weapon when ever you make a full attack with your primary hand. Two-Weapon Fighting (feat): Gain an extra attack with your off-hand weapon when ever you make a standard attack or a full attack with your primary hand (thus you can move and attack twice). Improved Two-Weapon Fighting (second feat, BAB +6): Gain a full attack with your off-hand weapon when ever you make a full attack with your primary hand. Oddly enough, because of the attack penalties, gaining the second off-hand attack actually increases your damage more than gaining the first off-hand attack; this is because the first off-hand attack comes with penalties to the primary hand attack. To help TWFing even more, I've reintroduced Ambidexterity: Ambidexterity (Feat, Dex 15 requirement; reduce TWFing Dex requirement to 13): Deal full strength damage with off-hand; no longer suffer additional penalty for wielding a one-handed off-hand weapon. This feat allows alternate types of TWFers to be created, such as a barbarian or a dervish (like Drizzt); not all TWFers are small weapon users or fencers, nor should people have to wait to take a PrC to gain this ability (since a larger weapon really only increases damage by 1 generally).
Phoenix Knight 05-01-06, 10:55 AM	The math is around the boards somewhere, but without search it would take me a long time to google it and find it. After two years of working on it, I've recently settled on a new fix; one that is quite simple but solves much of the problems: We had a rather long debate about this, huh? I like your new fix. I might consider using that (if I'm not running Iron Heroes). What do you do for the ranger combat style?
Coren 05-01-06, 02:36 PM	I haven't noticed 2wf overshadowing 2 handed weapons at all. I'd personally say that 2 handed weapons have the advantage when it comes to things like power attack and enchanting prices. Furthermore, 2wf takes a big hit when it comes to things like damage reduction.
Xeviat-DM 05-02-06, 01:32 AM	We had a rather long debate about this, huh? I like your new fix. I might consider using that (if I'm not running Iron Heroes). What do you do for the ranger combat style? I dropped ranger combat style ... moved evasion to 2nd, and added uncanny dodge at 6th, and improved uncanny dodge at 12th (put in improved evasion at 10th).
Steel Cobra 05-02-06, 03:42 PM	Makes sence, I really like the new feat and everything, but I have one question for you. Your ambidexterity feat completly removes the penalties for 2 weapon fighting? So basically what would by saying to the players don't do 2 weapon fighting, I mean in no penalties, becides lower BAB wouldn't 1d8 and 1d6 from longsword and shortsword be better then 2d6 from greatsword? Or would you be able to wield 2d8 since no penalties mans no off hand has to be light?
Vaalingrade Ashland 05-02-06, 04:13 PM	So basically what would by saying to the players don't do 2 weapon fighting, I mean in no penalties, becides lower BAB wouldn't 1d8 and 1d6 from longsword and shortsword be better then 2d6 from greatsword? Or would you be able to wield 2d8 since no penalties mans no off hand has to be light? The 2HF gets to use the three feats you needed to spend to make 2WF viable to take the gloriously broken Power Attack, plus Weapon Focus and a feat of his choice. So at level 9, when you're doing 2d8+4, the 2HF busts out with 2d6+19 (Power Attack for -5 to attack and +10 damage, plus Strength and a half on your (probably) Str 22 (+6)
Vaelan 05-02-06, 07:47 PM	I houseruled away the penalty for Two-Weapon Fighting and ruled that Two-Weapon Fighting allows you to make an off hand attack any time you make an attack with your primary hand. Two-Weapon Fighting can only be used with two light weapons. I've also removed the line from Power Attack about light weapons not benefitting. Since I ditched the Two-Weapon Ranger, I don't have any problems with this change. To address the fact that Rogues benefit greatly from these changes, Improved Two-Weapon Fighting is required to apply precision-based damage to attacks made with a weapon in one's off hand. The overall effect is that Two-Weapon Fighting is basically equivalent to using a two-handed weapon for your average Fighter. The only reason it requires a feat at all is because it gains twice the benefit from flat bonuses to damage. Rogues have to spend an extra feat to use Two-Weapon Fighting optimally, but my games tend to be a bit more lethal to foolhardy Rogues than most other people's, so I can see where some people may want to make Rogues pay a bit more.
Xeviat-DM 05-03-06, 04:37 PM	Makes sence, I really like the new feat and everything, but I have one question for you. Your ambidexterity feat completly removes the penalties for 2 weapon fighting? So basically what would by saying to the players don't do 2 weapon fighting, I mean in no penalties, becides lower BAB wouldn't 1d8 and 1d6 from longsword and shortsword be better then 2d6 from greatsword? Or would you be able to wield 2d8 since no penalties mans no off hand has to be light? No, my Ambidexterity removes the additional penalty for wielding a one-handed off-hand weapon, and increases your off-hand strength damage to full. So instead of suffering a -4 attack penalty to your attacks when using a one-handed off-hand weapon, you only suffer a -2 penalty. "Perfect" TWF should remove the -2 penalties, but I wouldn't want to see that as a TWFing feat until 12th level (though Improved Rapid Shot does it sooner).