Post/Author/DateTime	Post
wilbur07 10-25-07, 06:58 PM	Hi! Any and all comments, feedback, suggestion, and development issues are invited for this thread. The lists of abilities are far from complete, I only provide a first few examples to start this thread. I will compile the rules and publish on my own website at geocities.com and start a game here on rpol using these rules. I'm thinking of running a game with new rules to substitute in for the class system of DnD. Instead of picking a generic class like Cleric, you would pay for all of your class dependent benefits using points. Players get 32 points at 1st level, and 16 points at every level after that. Point values will look something like this: here is the latest update on the rules and a brief comparison of base classes. it shows that a lot of work has to be done to rebalance the point value system, or else that clerics are unbalanced anyways hehehe. Here is an update: 20 points allowed per level, except 1st level where you get 30 points To be spent each level -- You must spend at least 1 point on one save category, you cannot spend more than 5 points per category, except at 1st level, where you can spend 10 per category. +1 Save Category 5 points +.66 Save Category 3 points +.5 Save Category 2 points +.33 Save Category 1 point +.25 Save Category Free No good saves or poor saves, all save bonuses must be bought and accrued. You must spend at least 1 point on hit points. 1d4 Hit Points: 1 point 1d6 Hit Points: 3 points 1d8 Hit Points: 5 points 1d10 Hit Points: 7 points 1d12 Hit Points: 9 points 1 Bonus Feat: 5 points 1 Spellcasting Level Wizard/Sorceror/Cleric/Druid: 8 points; each level type is buyable only 1 time per level 1 Spellcasting Level Bard: 6 points 1 Spellcasting Level Duskblade: 5 points 1 Spellcasting Level Paladin/Ranger/Assassin: 2 points starting at 4th level only +1d6 Eldritch Blast: 8 points - cannot buy on consecutive levels +1d6 Sneak Attack/Skirmish: 6 points - cannot buy on consecutive levels Rage 1/day: 4 points - buyable 1 time per 3 levels Bardic Music 1/day: 1 point, requires perform instrument 4 ranks Shapechange 1/day: 7 points, minumum level 4th +1 BAB: 8 points +.75 BAB: 5 points +.5 BAB: 3 points +.33 BAB: 1 points +0 BAB: Free 0 Skill Ranks [not including bonus skill ranks due to Intelligence]: Free 2 Skill Ranks: 1 point 4 Skill Ranks: 2 points 6 Skill Ranks: 4 points 8 Skill Ranks: 6 points Familiar/Animal Companion/Special Mount: 1 point per level of advancement Class Features -- Fast Movement: 4 points for every +5 feet land speed, maximum 10 feet per character level Illiteracy: +1 extra class point per level Uncanny Dodge: 5 points Trap Sense: 3 points - buyable 1 time per 3 levels Improved Uncanny Dodge: 5 points one time only expense Damage Reduction: 5 points plus 1 for every rank already gained in DR, maximum 1 DR gained per 4 levels Greater Rage: 7 points one time only expense, requires rage at least 1/day Indomitable Will: 5 points, minumum 10th level Tireless Rage: 7 points one time only expense Light Armor Proficiency: 1 points Medium Armor Proficiency: 3 points [includes Light Armors] Heavy Armor Proficiency: 5 points [includes Light and Medium Armors] Simple Weapon Proficiency: 1 point Martial Weapon Proficiency: 3 points [includes simple weapons] Exotic or Single Weapon Proficiency: 1 point per weapon Shield Proficiency: 1 points [includes light and heavy shields] Tower Shield Proficiency: 2 points [includes light and heavy shields] Wear Light Armor with no ASF: 5 points Bardic Knowledge: 2 points Countersong: 3 points, requires bardic music Fascinate: 5 points, requires bardic music Inspire Courage: 5 points per +1, requires bardic music, can be bought once per 5 levels Inspire Competence: 5 points, requires bardic music, Perform 6 ranks Suggestion: 5 points, requires Fascinate ability, Perform 9 ranks Inspire Greatness: 5 points per target affected, requires bardic music, Perform 12 ranks, can only be bought once per 3 levels Song of Freedom: 5 points, Perform 15 ranks, bardic music Inspire heroics: 5 points per target, Perform 18 ranks, bardic music, can only be bought once per 3 levels Mass Suggestion: 5 points, Perform 21 ranks, bardic music Cleric Domain: 5 points each, can only be gained at 1st level or every 5 levels, 1 domain required for 1st level of Cleric spellcasting Alignment Aura: 2 points, required for 1st level of Cleric Spellcasting Spontaneous Casting: 5 points, only usable with Cleric Spellcasting Turn/Rebuke Undead: 5 points per level, buyable only once per level The base classes point costs: Fighter, 1st Level - 5 points on armor proficiency, 3 points on weapon proficiency, 2 points on shield proficiency, 14 points on saves, 7 points on hit points, 11/4 points for bonus feats, 8 points on BAB, 1 point on skill ranks for a total of 42.75 points. Fighter, 2nd Level - 4 points on saves, 7 points on hit points, 11/4 points for bonus feats, 8 points on BAB, 1 point on skill ranks for a total of 22.75 points. Barbarian, 1st Level - 3 points on armor proficiency, 3 points on weapon proficiency, 1 point on shield proficiency, 14 points on saves, 9 points on hit points, 90/20 on Barbarian Features, -1 Illiteracy, 24/20 on Rage, 8 points on BAB, 2 points on skill ranks for a total of 44.7 points. Barbarian, 2nd Level - 4 points on saves, 9 points on hit points, 90/20 on barbarian features, 8 points on BAB, 2 points on skill ranks, -1 illiteracy, total of 26.5 points. Cleric, 1st Level - 5 points on armor proficiency, 1 point on weapon proficiency, 1 point on shield proficiency, 29 points on saves, 5 points on hit points, 8 points on cleric spellcasting, 22/20 points on cleric features, 5 points on BAB, 1 point on skill ranks for a total of 56.1 points. Cleric, 2nd Level - 7 points on saves, 5 points on hit points, 22/20 on cleric features, 5 points on BAB, 1 point on skill ranks, 8 points on spellcasting, for a total of 27.1 points. Wizard, 1st Level - 1 point on weapon proficiency, 14 points on saves, 1 point on hit points, 25/20 on bonus feats, 8 points for spellcasting, 1 point on familiar, 1 point on skill ranks, for a total of 27.25 points. Wizard, 2nd Level - 5 points on saves, 1 point on hit points, 25/20 on bonus feats, 8 points for spellcasting, 1 point on familiars, 1 point on skill ranks, for a total of 17.25 points. Any help and feedback is appreciated!
Rustmonster 10-25-07, 10:29 PM	I'd suggest looking at the UA generic classes. They do what you want, without the... confusion. If there are abilties you want to use with a generic class that arn't on the list, just make an appropriate one up (with appropriate pre-reqs, of course).
wilbur07 10-25-07, 10:53 PM	I'd suggest looking at the UA generic classes. They do what you want, without the... confusion. If there are abilties you want to use with a generic class that arn't on the list, just make an appropriate one up (with appropriate pre-reqs, of course). Well, it's another option to use those rules, but I'm thinking of a more comprehensive set of rules to use for multiclassing in place of multiclassing. Here is an update: 20 points allowed per level, except 1st level where you get 30 points To be spent each level -- Each Good Save category: 2 points Poor Saves: Free 1d2 Hit Points; Free 1d4 Hit Points: 1 point 1d6 Hit Points: 3 points 1d8 Hit Points: 5 points 1d10 Hit Points: 7 points 1d12 Hit Points: 9 points 1 Bonus Feat: 5 points 1 Spellcasting Level Wizard/Sorceror/Cleric/Druid: 8 points 1 Spellcasting Level Bard: 6 points 1 Spellcasting Level Duskblade: 4 points 1 Spellcasting Level Paladin/Ranger/Assassin: 2 points starting at 4th level +1d6 Eldritch Blast: 8 points - cannot buy on consecutive levels +1d6 Sneak Attack/Skirmish: 6 points - cannot buy on consecutive levels Rage 1/day: 4 points - cannot buy on consecutive levels Bardic Music 1/day: 1 point, requires perform instrument 4 ranks Shapechange 1/day: 7 points, minumum level 4th +1 BAB: 8 points +.75 BAB: 5 points +.5 BAB: 3 points +.33 BAB: 1 points +0 BAB: Free 1 Skill Rank [not including bonus skill ranks due to Intelligence]: Free 2 Skill Ranks: 1 point 4 Skill Ranks: 2 points 6 Skill Ranks: 4 points 8 Skill Ranks: 5 points Familiar/Animal Companion/Special Mount: 1 point per level of advancement Class Features -- Fast Movement: 4 points for every +5 feet land speed, maximum 10 feet per character level Illiteracy: +1 extra class point per level Uncanny Dodge: 5 points Trap Sense: 3 points - cannot buy on consecutive levels Improved Uncanny Dodge: 5 points one time only expense Damage Reduction: 5 points for every rank in DR, maximum 1 DR gained per level Greater Rage: 7 points one time only expense, requires rage at least 1/day Indomitable Will: 5 points, minumum 10th level Tireless Rage: 7 points one time only expense Light Armor Proficiency: 2 points Medium Armor Proficiency: 6 points [includes Light Armors] Heavy Armor Proficiency: 10 points [includes Light and Medium Armors] Simple Weapon Proficiency: 1 point Martial Weapon Proficiency: 5 points [includes simple weapons] Exotic or Single Weapon Proficiency: 1 point per weapon Shield Proficiency: 3 points [includes light and heavy shields] Tower Shield Proficiency: 5 points [includes light and heavy shields] Wear Light Armor with no ASF: 5 points Bardic Knowledge: 2 points Countersong: 3 points, requires bardic music Fascinate: 5 points, requires bardic music Inspire Courage: 5 points per +1, requires bardic music, can be bought once per 5 levels Inspire Competence: 5 points, requires bardic music, Perform 6 ranks Suggestion: 5 points, requires Fascinate ability, Perform 9 ranks Inspire Greatness: 5 points per target affected, requires bardic music, Perform 12 ranks, can only be bought once per 3 levels Song of Freedom: 5 points, Perform 15 ranks, bardic music Inspire heroics: 5 points per target, Perform 18 ranks, bardic music, can only be bought once per 3 levels Mass Suggestion: 5 points, Perform 21 ranks, bardic music Cleric Domain: 5 points each, can only be gained at 1st level or every 5 levels, 1 domain required for 1st level of Cleric spellcasting Alignment Aura: 2 points, required for 1st level of Cleric Spellcasting Spontaneous Casting: 5 points, only usable with Cleric Spellcasting Turn/Rebuke Undead: 5 points per level, buyable only once per level [to be continued]
Rustmonster 10-26-07, 09:18 AM	I understand what you are getting at, and I say good luck (it's gonna be a tough road). Remember to play test the numbers THOROUGHLY. It is very easy to under/over estimate the power of an ability. Also, just my 2 cents, I would suggest removing the "1d2 HD free" thing. You have an average of 30.5 HP at level 20 if you have no con bonus. No class should have this few HP. That's why in the game the lowest used is d4. I would suggest making d4 free, and changing the other ones cost accordingly.
DrMorganes 10-26-07, 11:13 AM	Ouch. You make no reference as to how you came up with these numbers. Can you explain that a bit? As Rustmonster suggests, it's going to be difficult to balance the relative power of each class at various places with a straight-up point value. Ferinstance, wizards are widely acknowledged to be very, very fragile until Level 5, and a dominant force in the game after Level 15. Fighters, conversely, are pretty dominant up to Level 5 and mostly useless after Level 15. Unless some sort of scaling value is used, point-based progressions are difficult to manage and quickly become unbalanced. Ferinstance, Shadowrun and all of White Wolf's Storyteller games (Vampire, Werewolf, et. al.) are classless point-based systems where the better you get in a given area, the more expensive it becomes to improve. Gaining a new skill or ability is relatively inexpensive. Boosting that skill or ability to moderate levels isn't overly painful, and you can still advance a little in other areas at the same time. Getting really good in a given area requires a major expenditure of your points, which demands that you ignore progression in other areas. This makes sense. Specialization always happens at the expense of versatility. I don't see that happening quite as it should with your fixed-value system. Some issues: You disallow purchasing Rage on consecutive levels. This still allows one to advance in Rages per day at twice the rate of a full-on barbarian! (Rage progression is +1/day per 4 barbarian levels.) No limits on how many levels of spellcasting one can purchase. With this system as presented it's possible for full casters to dump a lot of things at Level 1 and wind up with +0 BAB, Good Will Save, 1d4 hp, and be a Level 3 caster. Sure, skills will suck, but you're giving away 1 rank for free and still giving bonus skill points for high INT. There's not a powergamer on the planet that wouldn't give up 12 skill points in exchange for 2 extra LEVELS of spellcasting power. Obviously this is corrected by adding the appropriate limits on such purchases, but they're not in yet ;)
wilbur07 10-26-07, 09:41 PM	Thanks for the feedback! Those are all good comments and I'd like to add a modification for saves: Modification to saves progression: +1 Save Category 9 points +.66 Save Category 6 points +.5 Save Category 3 points +.33 Save Category 1 point +.25 Save Category Free No good saves or poor saves, all save bonuses must be bought and accrued. Also, only 1 spellcasting level per type is allowed per level of advancement. That is, at 1st level you could buy cleric, mage, druid, and bard spellcasting levels with no other class features, but not say, 3 levels of wizard spellcasting. More clarifications and modifications forthcoming! I guess what I'm asking is help on the point values of various class features. Also, if a feature calls for progressively expensive point values then a suggestion as to how to implement would be helpful. Keep your comments coming!
vorpo 10-27-07, 07:54 PM	Have you tried rebuilding the core/base classes with your point system and see how much points they actually use up? That is the first thing you should do to see how your point system converts.
vorpo 10-27-07, 07:59 PM	Oh, and I suggest you edit your OP with newer versions every time for easier reference. New comers won't have to scroll down or miss your newer version because of that.
wilbur07 10-27-07, 11:43 PM	here is the latest update on the rules and a brief comparison of base classes. it shows that a lot of work has to be done to rebalance the point value system, or else that clerics are unbalanced anyways hehehe. Here is an update: 20 points allowed per level, except 1st level where you get 30 points To be spent each level -- You must spend at least 1 point on each save category, you cannot spend more than 5 points per category, except at 1st level, where you can spend 10 per category. +1 Save Category 5 points +.66 Save Category 3 points +.5 Save Category 2 points +.33 Save Category 1 point +.25 Save Category Free No good saves or poor saves, all save bonuses must be bought and accrued. You must spend at least 1 point on hit points. 1d4 Hit Points: 1 point 1d6 Hit Points: 3 points 1d8 Hit Points: 5 points 1d10 Hit Points: 7 points 1d12 Hit Points: 9 points 1 Bonus Feat: 5 points 1 Spellcasting Level Wizard/Sorceror/Cleric/Druid: 8 points; each level type is buyable only 1 time per level 1 Spellcasting Level Bard: 6 points 1 Spellcasting Level Duskblade: 5 points 1 Spellcasting Level Paladin/Ranger/Assassin: 2 points starting at 4th level only +1d6 Eldritch Blast: 8 points - cannot buy on consecutive levels +1d6 Sneak Attack/Skirmish: 6 points - cannot buy on consecutive levels Rage 1/day: 4 points - buyable 1 time per 3 levels Bardic Music 1/day: 1 point, requires perform instrument 4 ranks Shapechange 1/day: 7 points, minumum level 4th +1 BAB: 8 points +.75 BAB: 5 points +.5 BAB: 3 points +.33 BAB: 1 points +0 BAB: Free 0 Skill Ranks [not including bonus skill ranks due to Intelligence]: Free 2 Skill Ranks: 1 point 4 Skill Ranks: 2 points 6 Skill Ranks: 4 points 8 Skill Ranks: 6 points Familiar/Animal Companion/Special Mount: 1 point per level of advancement Class Features -- Fast Movement: 4 points for every +5 feet land speed, maximum 10 feet per character level Illiteracy: +1 extra class point per level Uncanny Dodge: 5 points Trap Sense: 3 points - buyable 1 time per 3 levels Improved Uncanny Dodge: 5 points one time only expense Damage Reduction: 5 points plus 1 for every rank already gained in DR, maximum 1 DR gained per 4 levels Greater Rage: 7 points one time only expense, requires rage at least 1/day Indomitable Will: 5 points, minumum 10th level Tireless Rage: 7 points one time only expense Light Armor Proficiency: 1 points Medium Armor Proficiency: 3 points [includes Light Armors] Heavy Armor Proficiency: 5 points [includes Light and Medium Armors] Simple Weapon Proficiency: 1 point Martial Weapon Proficiency: 3 points [includes simple weapons] Exotic or Single Weapon Proficiency: 1 point per weapon Shield Proficiency: 1 points [includes light and heavy shields] Tower Shield Proficiency: 2 points [includes light and heavy shields] Wear Light Armor with no ASF: 5 points Bardic Knowledge: 2 points Countersong: 3 points, requires bardic music Fascinate: 5 points, requires bardic music Inspire Courage: 5 points per +1, requires bardic music, can be bought once per 5 levels Inspire Competence: 5 points, requires bardic music, Perform 6 ranks Suggestion: 5 points, requires Fascinate ability, Perform 9 ranks Inspire Greatness: 5 points per target affected, requires bardic music, Perform 12 ranks, can only be bought once per 3 levels Song of Freedom: 5 points, Perform 15 ranks, bardic music Inspire heroics: 5 points per target, Perform 18 ranks, bardic music, can only be bought once per 3 levels Mass Suggestion: 5 points, Perform 21 ranks, bardic music Cleric Domain: 5 points each, can only be gained at 1st level or every 5 levels, 1 domain required for 1st level of Cleric spellcasting Alignment Aura: 2 points, required for 1st level of Cleric Spellcasting Spontaneous Casting: 5 points, only usable with Cleric Spellcasting Turn/Rebuke Undead: 5 points per level, buyable only once per level The base classes point costs: Fighter, 1st Level - 5 points on armor proficiency, 3 points on weapon proficiency, 2 points on shield proficiency, 14 points on saves, 7 points on hit points, 11/4 points for bonus feats, 8 points on BAB, 1 point on skill ranks for a total of 42.75 points. Fighter, 2nd Level - 4 points on saves, 7 points on hit points, 11/4 points for bonus feats, 8 points on BAB, 1 point on skill ranks for a total of 22.75 points. Barbarian, 1st Level - 3 points on armor proficiency, 3 points on weapon proficiency, 1 point on shield proficiency, 14 points on saves, 9 points on hit points, 90/20 on Barbarian Features, -1 Illiteracy, 24/20 on Rage, 8 points on BAB, 2 points on skill ranks for a total of 44.7 points. Barbarian, 2nd Level - 4 points on saves, 9 points on hit points, 90/20 on barbarian features, 8 points on BAB, 2 points on skill ranks, -1 illiteracy, total of 26.5 points. Cleric, 1st Level - 5 points on armor proficiency, 1 point on weapon proficiency, 1 point on shield proficiency, 29 points on saves, 5 points on hit points, 8 points on cleric spellcasting, 22/20 points on cleric features, 5 points on BAB, 1 point on skill ranks for a total of 56.1 points. Cleric, 2nd Level - 7 points on saves, 5 points on hit points, 22/20 on cleric features, 5 points on BAB, 1 point on skill ranks, 8 points on spellcasting, for a total of 27.1 points. Wizard, 1st Level - 1 point on weapon proficiency, 14 points on saves, 1 point on hit points, 25/20 on bonus feats, 8 points for spellcasting, 1 point on familiar, 1 point on skill ranks, for a total of 27.25 points. Wizard, 2nd Level - 5 points on saves, 1 point on hit points, 25/20 on bonus feats, 8 points for spellcasting, 1 point on familiars, 1 point on skill ranks, for a total of 17.25 points.
calronmoonflower 10-28-07, 04:08 PM	You might want to increase the cost of abilities as you purchase higher ranks and increase the points you get with levels.
vorpo 10-28-07, 04:21 PM	Oh, and I suggest you edit your OP with newer versions every time for easier reference. New comers won't have to scroll down or miss your newer version because of that. did you not read this?
Realms Walker 10-29-07, 04:20 AM	did you not read this? Im not sure what your issue is Vorpo. I read back and it looks like he is updating it all though very haphazardly. Then again I glanced so I might have missed something.
wilbur07 10-29-07, 01:49 PM	did you not read this? I read it, sorry, i forgot to do so when i last posted. Will do so from now on. Thanks for at least reading this thread!
BENEVOLENT_DM 10-30-07, 07:08 PM	You are very ambitous. Are you planning on allowing a limited number of feets per level? if not you may have some issues balancing the feets that affect HP, saves, and skills. For example, the cost of 1d10 hit points is 7 points. This will be an average of 5.5 HP. The cost of 1d4 hit dice is 1 point. If you take the toughness feat for 5 points for an average of 5.5 HP for less total cost. Also, to gain the same saves as a 1rst level Monk, it would take 30 points (if I am reading this correctly) this is not even possible with only 30 points to spend. A player could spend the mandatory 1 point in each class, take the feats Great Fortitude, Iron Will, and Lightning Reflexes, Get the same net effect (assuming you round down) for 18 points. The disparety here is pretty great. I think you will find many more instances like this with just the PHB feats, let alone all the supplents available. Good luck, and keep us posted on your progress!
Roog 10-30-07, 08:04 PM	You must spend at least 1 point on each save category, you cannot spend more than 5 points per category, except at 1st level, where you can spend 10 per category. +1 Save Category 5 points +.66 Save Category 3 points +.5 Save Category 2 points +.33 Save Category 1 point +.25 Save Category Free No good saves or poor saves, all save bonuses must be bought and accrued. If you must spend at least 1 point on each save category, why have +.25 Save Category for free?
ArochanoX 10-31-07, 10:14 AM	I've tried this too. http://forums.gleemax.com/showthread.php?t=903629 here's my work for your perusal. You should also check this: http://forums.gleemax.com/wotc_archive/index.php/t-282481 just my 2cp. I hope you succeed.
vorpo 10-31-07, 05:44 PM	So, obviously your point buy has a problem dealing with wizards. Costing only 27.25 pts at lvl 1. Which is significantly lower than the other classes you rebuilt. Yet wizard is up there in the top classes list. I guess the problem lies in spells. Also, spell list is also a problem.
BENEVOLENT_DM 11-09-07, 12:06 PM	You already have a built in system to do this, by comparing skills and feats to the other class abilities. I would multiply your base cost for feat by 6 to leave more room for slightly higher or lower power abilities. 1 Bonus Feat: 30 points +1 Save Category should be: 15 points - This is due to the core feats that increase saves. One feat = +2 to saves. Hit dice: 1d4 Hit Points: 25 point (average 2.5 hit points) 1d6 Hit Points: 35 points (average 3.5 hit points) 1d8 Hit Points: 45 points (average 4.5 hit points) 1d10 Hit Points: 55 points (average 5.5 hit points) 1d12 Hit Points: 65 points (average 6.5 hit points) This is based on the toughness. 3 hit points costing 30 character points. You could have one skill point =6 character points. I believe there is a feat that allows you to buy 5 skill points with a feat. To do this with some other class abilities, especially weapon proficiencies becomes on issue. To follow this same approach there would mean you would have to use 30 character points to buy each weapon, and most people would never do this. Other than this, It is more about assigning values in comparison to Saves, Hit Dice, and skill points.
vorpo 11-09-07, 01:36 PM	You could have one skill point =6 character points. I believe there is a feat that allows you to buy 5 skill points with a feat. The Open Minded feat in XPH
BENEVOLENT_DM 11-12-07, 02:19 PM	Thank you Vorpo. Wilbur07, I think this post is an interesting Idea, but we haven't seen and update in a while. I think you could get more feedback if you explained how you arrived at some of your numbers. I would be interested in how you came up with 8 points for base attack. This is a 60% increase over a feat or saving throw bonus. I am not saying this is incorrect, but I would like to know how you derived it. Anyone else have an idea on what base attack bonus is worth compared with a feat or saving throw bonus? If you could forgo an increase in BAB to gain a feat how often do you think players would do it?
BENEVOLENT_DM 11-13-07, 07:03 PM	this may be to your liking or you could borrow. ideashttp://www.netflash.net/llanade/redleafgames/dliberation20.php
echelon_house 11-14-07, 12:37 AM	I've been working on a universal class system myself for a while now, but I've taken it in a very different direction. In order to symplify the incredibly complex mess that results from trying to play inside of the current D&D rules, I've scrapped a lot of them and relied on a pared-down version in some ways more similiar to the d20 modern rules. It relies heavily on skills, since these are a pre-existing way of allowing players to scale their abilities themselves, without having to create a clunky system that tries to do it automatically. I've completely done away with the concept of BAB, saves, and weapon/armor proficiency, instead folding them all into the skill system. The function of the Reflex save has been added to the Tumble skill, for example, allowing players who want their character to be good at dodging attacks to focus heavily on that skill from level 1. I've turned weapon proficiency into a skill set much like Perform, with different sub-skills based on the weapon type. The Attack skill includes Blunt Melee Weapons (staffs, clubs, etc), Edged Melee Weapons (swords, knives, etc), Ranged Weapons (bows, guns, etc), Pole Weapons (spears, halberds, etc), Unarmed (Martial arts), and an "Other" category for miscellaneous exotic weapons. When a player declares an attack, they roll a d20 just like normal and add their skill modifier to the result based on how good their are with their weapon instead of adding their BAB. This results in class level progressions that are basically just lists of special abilities gained at any specific levels, which can be dealt with by turning class abilities into feats. Everyone gets two free feats at level 1, and sometimes more based on their race. Both skills and feats are bought by spending experience points, forcing players to choose between the two. Spells are also based on feats - each magical school is essentially a feat the character has to buy in order to be able to access those types of spells. They can then cast spells within that school by spending their mana, which replenishes on a daily basis.
Magrus 11-14-07, 10:58 AM	Purchased a PDF call "Buy the Numbers" for about $5 off some website. It breaks down a point system in which to pick and choose all of the PHB classes and DMG PrC's. It provides a brief outline on how to convert class abilities from other sources if you do a little work. From a player and DM standpoint, the system creates characters with no dead weight. Specialists who are damn good at what they do, and should be treated as such. It is possible for you to end up with a spell caster who has crappy saves and HD, bad BAB, and have both full Wizard and say, minor Clerical spell casting both. Then again, it fixes the problems with the fighter so many people have as well. You can toss a bigger HD, less feats, and better saves in there, or something else instead. It may save you quite a bit of work if you can find it.
Daybreaker 11-14-07, 03:59 PM	Mutans & Masterminds uses a classless (and even raceless) d20 system. I'm not sure exactly how compatible it is with D&D but it is very thorough.
AerinIV 11-14-07, 05:11 PM	Yes, I quite like the Mutants & Masterminds system.
Ultima0071 11-17-07, 11:24 PM	I would never give up classes since I am glued to them. Still, your system needs some tweaking. The only real suggestion I can give you is to give them ability requirements. For example, a sneak attack requires a minimum DEX of 13. Plus, as it advances (+2d6, +3d6,+4d6, and so on) it requrires a higher DEX. For that ability, I suggest a DEX of 13 + 1 per 2d6.