A bard with more skill points? [Archive] - Wizards Community

A bard with more skill points? [Archive] - Wizards Community

Post/Author/DateTime Post
Werwoelfin
12-09-05, 08:21 AM Hi,

I´d like to play a bard who´s focused in learning (a bit like a wizard), so I´m searching for a variant with more skill points. Spell casting is part of the character concept, so I can´t take rogue instead of bard.

I thought about give him a W4 instead of a W6 or make his bardic music less effective (as bardic sage in UA). But I´m not sure how many skill points he should get in return.
Minias
12-09-05, 08:35 AM This is not meant to be flippant, but why not just create a human bard with an 18 intelligence? You'd start off with 44 skill points and then 11 skill points per level. If your highest ability score is now intelligence instead of charisma then by default your bardic magic will be weaker.

An iconic Bard recieves a base 6 skill points per level. The iconic Rogue 8 base skill points. In creating a Bard variant, you'd not want to create one that has more skill points then the Rogue, right? Maybe equal to a Rogue? If so, then it is far easier just to create that really intelligent, less-charismatic, human bard.

Anyway, if your true wish was to be creative and make a cool variant then I must say, good luck and have fun. I just wanted to save you the trouble if you really don't want to create a variant class.
FriendoftheDork
12-09-05, 10:11 AM Well 6 skill points per level is great, while the rogue's 8 is maximum. I must agree with Minias, take more int and lower charisma and you've fixed it. Really, your character concept fits nicely in the current class as well, as higher int means better bardic knowledge.

BTW if you're a player why do you post here and not the player forum, or better yet UA house rule forum? This is DM rules counciling.

If you're a DM just raise the NPCs int and play him as a scholar.
Werwoelfin
12-09-05, 12:32 PM I must agree with Minias, take more int and lower charisma and you've fixed it.

We don´t use a point system for character attributs, we roll dices. I already put my highest result on int. It´s a 15.

BTW if you're a player why do you post here and not the player forum, or better yet UA house rule forum?

I once asked something about flaws and they directed me to the UA forum, so I thought variant character classes as described in the UA belong to this forum. Or is there another UA forum I have overlooked?

Anyway, if your true wish was to be creative and make a cool variant then I must say, good luck and have fun. I just wanted to save you the trouble if you really don't want to create a variant class.

I just thought about cutting a bit here and there and giving a little bit extra here and there. It was just a spontaneous idea because I saw that the cloistered cleric has more skill points than the standard cleric, so something like this is generally possible.
Tenzhi
12-09-05, 12:50 PM I think that you might get away with ditching his martial weapon proficiencies for 2 more skill points per level. Dunno how well that goes with your concept, however.
Werwoelfin
12-11-05, 08:00 AM I think that you might get away with ditching his martial weapon proficiencies for 2 more skill points per level. Dunno how well that goes with your concept, however.

This would fit fine but after the first two posts I´m not sure if it is balanced or not...
FriendoftheDork
12-12-05, 01:55 AM We don´t use a point system for character attributs, we roll dices. I already put my highest result on int. It´s a 15.

I once asked something about flaws and they directed me to the UA forum, so I thought variant character classes as described in the UA belong to this forum. Or is there another UA forum I have overlooked?

I just thought about cutting a bit here and there and giving a little bit extra here and there. It was just a spontaneous idea because I saw that the cloistered cleric has more skill points than the standard cleric, so something like this is generally possible.

Well with 15 int you do get 8 skill points per level, 9 if you're human. Not too bad IMO.

Sorry, thought this was the Dm counceling forum, you posted at the right place. My bad.

Yes you are right that it is surely possible to modify classes, or even nerf something for a small boost to another. But this has to be OK'd by the DM, so you should really ask your DM about it.

The golden rule is that you should lose more power than you gain, so that if you're slightly wrong with evaluating a class feature, the character doesen't become too overpowered.

You shouldn't get more skill points than rogues anyway (it's their main strenght), but getting 2 skill points extra per level. As your DM I would say you had to put the extra skill points in knowledge, craft or profession skills or they would be lost.

As a trade off you would either lose martial weapon proficiencies+light armor, a certain amount of spellcasting ability (must check it up), or all bardic music.

That makes it probably not worth it, but that's acceptable if you only want it to better suit your concept and not just improve the character.
Werwoelfin
12-12-05, 10:02 AM Yes you are right that it is surely possible to modify classes, or even nerf something for a small boost to another. But this has to be OK'd by the DM, so you should really ask your DM about it.

My DM worries more about fluff than crunch. He said it might be okay, but he couldn´t say how to edit the bard exactly, so I asked here...

You shouldn't get more skill points than rogues anyway (it's their main strenght), but getting 2 skill points extra per level. As your DM I would say you had to put the extra skill points in knowledge, craft or profession skills or they would be lost.

As a trade off you would either lose martial weapon proficiencies+light armor, a certain amount of spellcasting ability (must check it up), or all bardic music.

That makes it probably not worth it, but that's acceptable if you only want it to better suit your concept and not just improve the character.

Thanks for the suggestions, they seem quite useful. I will ask my DM about this. The ability to cast spells is why I take bard not rouge, so this would be the worst option. Loosing the proficiencies or bardic music would not be that important.

At the moment, I think about taking a level rogue anyway because I saw the bard do not have all the skills as class skills of which I thought he has.

I want this character (a changling) to take the Chameleon PrC later. So he should be as variable as possible - able to masquerade as anyone but with some knowledge about diverse things, too. But after noticing all skills that may be useful - I count 20 or so ;) - I surely have the character to be more specialized in some skills or more dilettante in many skills. (Or maybe I choose to take the changeling rogue substitution level at first level to gain (10+INT-Mod.) x4 skill points :D)
FriendoftheDork
12-12-05, 11:00 AM My DM worries more about fluff than crunch. He said it might be okay, but he couldn´t say how to edit the bard exactly, so I asked here...

Thanks for the suggestions, they seem quite useful. I will ask my DM about this. The ability to cast spells is why I take bard not rouge, so this would be the worst option. Loosing the proficiencies or bardic music would not be that important.

At the moment, I think about taking a level rouge anyway because I saw the bard do not have all the skills as class skills of which I thought he has.

I want this character (a changling) to take the Chameleon PrC later. So he should be as variable as possible - able to masquerade as anyone but with some knowledge about diverse things, too. But after noticing all skills that may be useful - I count 20 or so ;) - I surely have the character to be more specialized in some skills or more dilettante in many skills. (Or maybe I choose to take the changeling rouge substitution level at first level to gain (10+INT-Mod.) x4 skill points :D)

Not bad, not bad. Well in your case I'd drop martial prof and light armor proficiency, it suits alot better that a scholar bard do not train fighting much.
Rogues may have access to a few more skills (can't remember which ones), but remember bards have something rogues don't; knowledge skills as class skills.

20 skills? Hehe, goodluck. Well when you "dilletante" a skill you should have no more 5 ranks, enough to get synergies. Some skills however you can't have enough ranks it, such as spot, listen, use magic device, search (espec. if you rogue as well), possibly disable device. To be effective you should have at least 4 skills maxed out, not necessarily the ones I mentioned.
nonsi
12-12-05, 12:29 PM 1. talk to your DM about trading a feat for Trapfinding.
2. by 4th level you can have an additional skill point / level & fill in the missing slots.
3. what's your CHA score ?
Werwoelfin
12-12-05, 12:50 PM Not bad, not bad. Well in your case I'd drop martial prof and light armor proficiency, it suits alot better that a scholar bard do not train fighting much.
Rogues may have access to a few more skills (can't remember which ones), but remember bards have something rogues don't; knowledge skills as class skills.

And rogue have something bards dont; spot is a class skill ;) ...and search. That skill is really useful in Eberron (investigating) adventures.

20 skills? Hehe, goodluck. Well when you "dilletante" a skill you should have no more 5 ranks, enough to get synergies. Some skills however you can't have enough ranks it, such as spot, listen, use magic device, search (espec. if you rogue as well), possibly disable device. To be effective you should have at least 4 skills maxed out, not necessarily the ones I mentioned.

I thought of these: disguise (-> changeling!), bluff (Have you called for me, a cleric of the silver flame? *g*), concentration (a chameleon is able to cast divine or/and arcane spells) and spellcraft (a chameleon needs a spell book as a wizard to prepare spells).
Spot and listen would be fine, too - but that´s my problem, not, mhm, never enough skill points ;)

To fullfill the prerequisites of the chameleon PrC I have to take the able learner feat, so cross skills do not cost more than class skills.

At the moment, I´m not sure about how the character would normally earn money. It is just certain that he will not have a regular job (= profession or craft in D&D terms). The possibilities I´m thinking of are entertainment as common for a bard or dealing with secret informations and/or thievery making him a little bit more stealthy...

:lightbulb Alchemy and forgery would be very interesting and would fit nice to a changeling chameleon

I began roleplaying with some powergamers, so sometimes I just forget that "only" 5 ranks + ability modifier are pretty good. (Especially in Eberron where NPCs mostly have around 5 levels...) Dilettante skills will make it, too ;)
Werwoelfin
12-12-05, 01:11 PM 1. talk to your DM about trading a feat for Trapfinding.
2. by 4th level you can have an additional skill point / level & fill in the missing slots.
3. what's your CHA score ?

1. It´s not yet sure I will even take a level rogue. It's an alluring option but I want a caster level of 5 before starting with chameleon, so pure bard would be the fastest way to fullfill the prerequisites for the PrC and get the cl as well. Anyway, I dont think that he would allow this.

2. That was exactly what I´ve planned to do. (But unfortunately, unlike a CON-increasing it´s not retroacting.)

3. CHA score is 14.
nonsi
12-13-05, 01:19 AM 1. It´s not yet sure I will even take a level rouge. It's an alluring option but I want a caster level of 5 before starting with chameleon, so pure bard would be the fastest way to fullfill the prerequisites for the PrC and get the cl as well. Anyway, I dont think that he would allow this.

2. That was exactly what I´ve planned to do. (But unfortunately, unlike a CON-increasing it´s not retroacting.)

3. CHA score is 14.

1. Once again, I was talking about trading a feat as a bard for Trapfinding & search as class skill. If you take a human, the loss won't be so fainful. Btw, I'm not familiar with the chameleon PrC. Do you have a link to the statistics? is it truly worth giving up spell levels?
2. Where is it written that skill accumulation is not retroactive ?
3. If you change your mind and decide to go full bard, you'll have to boost it up.
Werwoelfin
12-13-05, 04:15 AM 1. Once again, I was talking about trading a feat as a bard for Trapfinding & search as class skill. If you take a human, the loss won't be so fainful. Btw, I'm not familiar with the chameleon PrC. Do you have a link to the statistics? is it truly worth giving up spell levels?

So, I definitely misunderstood you. Search and trapfinding would be fine but they're not that important. I´m still rasping my concept, so I can change the priorites a little bit.

More about the chameleon (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/iw/20041210b&page=1)

I think chameleon is a very acceptable PrC for a bard.

Arguing with spell levels -
A bard gets 6th level spells at level 16 if his CHA is 22-23.
The earliest level at which you´re able to start with the chameloen PrC is level 6. Using the Arcane Focus, you´re able to cast 6th level arcane spells at character level 14 (if you have a INT of 22-23) and your caster level would be 18. The spells can be taken from any arcane spell casting class, so you´re able to take bard spells but you´re not limited to a few spells known - at least if´re able to get lots of bard spell scrolls to copy them to your spell book. (A chameleon needs to prepare arcane spells like a wizard.)
In addition, you might prepare divine spells, too. As you get "double aptitude" at 7th level (of the PrC).

Where is it written that skill accumulation is not retroactive ?

I just meant, if you raise your INT at level 4 and you have a higher INT-Modifier afterwards, you don`t get an additional skill point for your previous three levels.

3. If you change your mind and decide to go full bard, you'll have to boost it up.

I´ll keep that in mind but I don't think I would decide to go full bard. I like the idea of the chameleon too much.
CaoSlayer
12-15-05, 10:22 AM Low this bab to mage bab and every DM will acept it as balanced.
Werwoelfin
12-15-05, 11:40 AM Low this bab to mage bab and every DM will acept it as balanced.

What if someone plans to take only one bard level? So, if he use this variant he will have no losses but will get two additional skill points...
nonsi
12-15-05, 03:12 PM So, I definitely misunderstood you. Search and trapfinding would be fine but they're not that important. I´m still rasping my concept, so I can change the priorites a little bit.

More about the chameleon (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/iw/20041210b&page=1)

I think chameleon is a very acceptable PrC for a bard.

Arguing with spell levels -
A bard gets 6th level spells at level 16 if his CHA is 22-23.
The earliest level at which you´re able to start with the chameloen PrC is level 6. Using the Arcane Focus, you´re able to cast 6th level arcane spells at character level 14 (if you have a INT of 22-23) and your caster level would be 18. The spells can be taken from any arcane spell casting class, so you´re able to take bard spells but you´re not limited to a few spells known - at least if´re able to get lots of bard spell scrolls to copy them to your spell book. (A chameleon needs to prepare arcane spells like a wizard.)
In addition, you might prepare divine spells, too. As you get "double aptitude" at 7th level (of the PrC).

I just meant, if you raise your INT at level 4 and you have a higher INT-Modifier afterwards, you don`t get an additional skill point for your previous three levels.

I´ll keep that in mind but I don't think I would decide to go full bard. I like the idea of the chameleon too much.

I see. I guess I didn't read it propperly. the way you present thing, the chameleon a really atractive PrC.

and regarding the INT increase I got you the 1st time, I just want to know where it is written specifically, that when INT goes up it doesn't grant you skill slots of previous levels (as opposed to total HP by class, level & increased CON).
Werwoelfin
12-16-05, 07:25 AM I see. I guess I didn't read it propperly. the way you present thing, the chameleon a really atractive PrC.

and regarding the INT increase I got you the 1st time, I just want to know where it is written specifically, that when INT goes up it doesn't grant you skill slots of previous levels (as opposed to total HP by class, level & increased CON).

It is written at the end of chapter 1 in PHB. There´s an example of what happens when your INT increases. It explicitly states that the charcter (in that example Mialee) does not get additional points for their previous levels.
CaoSlayer
12-20-05, 05:48 AM What if someone plans to take only one bard level? So, if he use this variant he will have no losses but will get two additional skill points...

Really actually a single bard level chip isnt almost worth nothing, you just get some cantrips, whip proficient, two good saves,basic bardic knowledge and 1 use of bardic music...
Werwoelfin
12-20-05, 07:23 AM Really actually a single bard level chip isnt almost worth nothing, you just get some cantrips, whip proficient, two good saves,basic bardic knowledge and 1 use of bardic music...

One of my characters have only one bard level. It was a good way to fullfill a special requisitie for a PrC (proficiency with whip), getting song of courage and much more skillpoints at first Level than a sorceress would have got.
Millennium
12-20-05, 01:05 PM Why not just take a rogue level or two every now and then? In addition to getting you some extra skill points, this will help boost your melee combat ability. You'll give up a bit of magical ability in the process, but since you're already focusing on INT rather than CHA it shouldn't be as much of a problem.

Post/Author/DateTime	Post
Werwoelfin 12-09-05, 08:21 AM	Hi, I´d like to play a bard who´s focused in learning (a bit like a wizard), so I´m searching for a variant with more skill points. Spell casting is part of the character concept, so I can´t take rogue instead of bard. I thought about give him a W4 instead of a W6 or make his bardic music less effective (as bardic sage in UA). But I´m not sure how many skill points he should get in return.
Minias 12-09-05, 08:35 AM	This is not meant to be flippant, but why not just create a human bard with an 18 intelligence? You'd start off with 44 skill points and then 11 skill points per level. If your highest ability score is now intelligence instead of charisma then by default your bardic magic will be weaker. An iconic Bard recieves a base 6 skill points per level. The iconic Rogue 8 base skill points. In creating a Bard variant, you'd not want to create one that has more skill points then the Rogue, right? Maybe equal to a Rogue? If so, then it is far easier just to create that really intelligent, less-charismatic, human bard. Anyway, if your true wish was to be creative and make a cool variant then I must say, good luck and have fun. I just wanted to save you the trouble if you really don't want to create a variant class.
FriendoftheDork 12-09-05, 10:11 AM	Well 6 skill points per level is great, while the rogue's 8 is maximum. I must agree with Minias, take more int and lower charisma and you've fixed it. Really, your character concept fits nicely in the current class as well, as higher int means better bardic knowledge. BTW if you're a player why do you post here and not the player forum, or better yet UA house rule forum? This is DM rules counciling. If you're a DM just raise the NPCs int and play him as a scholar.
Werwoelfin 12-09-05, 12:32 PM	I must agree with Minias, take more int and lower charisma and you've fixed it. We don´t use a point system for character attributs, we roll dices. I already put my highest result on int. It´s a 15. BTW if you're a player why do you post here and not the player forum, or better yet UA house rule forum? I once asked something about flaws and they directed me to the UA forum, so I thought variant character classes as described in the UA belong to this forum. Or is there another UA forum I have overlooked? Anyway, if your true wish was to be creative and make a cool variant then I must say, good luck and have fun. I just wanted to save you the trouble if you really don't want to create a variant class. I just thought about cutting a bit here and there and giving a little bit extra here and there. It was just a spontaneous idea because I saw that the cloistered cleric has more skill points than the standard cleric, so something like this is generally possible.
Tenzhi 12-09-05, 12:50 PM	I think that you might get away with ditching his martial weapon proficiencies for 2 more skill points per level. Dunno how well that goes with your concept, however.
Werwoelfin 12-11-05, 08:00 AM	I think that you might get away with ditching his martial weapon proficiencies for 2 more skill points per level. Dunno how well that goes with your concept, however. This would fit fine but after the first two posts I´m not sure if it is balanced or not...
FriendoftheDork 12-12-05, 01:55 AM	We don´t use a point system for character attributs, we roll dices. I already put my highest result on int. It´s a 15. I once asked something about flaws and they directed me to the UA forum, so I thought variant character classes as described in the UA belong to this forum. Or is there another UA forum I have overlooked? I just thought about cutting a bit here and there and giving a little bit extra here and there. It was just a spontaneous idea because I saw that the cloistered cleric has more skill points than the standard cleric, so something like this is generally possible. Well with 15 int you do get 8 skill points per level, 9 if you're human. Not too bad IMO. Sorry, thought this was the Dm counceling forum, you posted at the right place. My bad. Yes you are right that it is surely possible to modify classes, or even nerf something for a small boost to another. But this has to be OK'd by the DM, so you should really ask your DM about it. The golden rule is that you should lose more power than you gain, so that if you're slightly wrong with evaluating a class feature, the character doesen't become too overpowered. You shouldn't get more skill points than rogues anyway (it's their main strenght), but getting 2 skill points extra per level. As your DM I would say you had to put the extra skill points in knowledge, craft or profession skills or they would be lost. As a trade off you would either lose martial weapon proficiencies+light armor, a certain amount of spellcasting ability (must check it up), or all bardic music. That makes it probably not worth it, but that's acceptable if you only want it to better suit your concept and not just improve the character.
Werwoelfin 12-12-05, 10:02 AM	Yes you are right that it is surely possible to modify classes, or even nerf something for a small boost to another. But this has to be OK'd by the DM, so you should really ask your DM about it. My DM worries more about fluff than crunch. He said it might be okay, but he couldn´t say how to edit the bard exactly, so I asked here... You shouldn't get more skill points than rogues anyway (it's their main strenght), but getting 2 skill points extra per level. As your DM I would say you had to put the extra skill points in knowledge, craft or profession skills or they would be lost. As a trade off you would either lose martial weapon proficiencies+light armor, a certain amount of spellcasting ability (must check it up), or all bardic music. That makes it probably not worth it, but that's acceptable if you only want it to better suit your concept and not just improve the character. Thanks for the suggestions, they seem quite useful. I will ask my DM about this. The ability to cast spells is why I take bard not rouge, so this would be the worst option. Loosing the proficiencies or bardic music would not be that important. At the moment, I think about taking a level rogue anyway because I saw the bard do not have all the skills as class skills of which I thought he has. I want this character (a changling) to take the Chameleon PrC later. So he should be as variable as possible - able to masquerade as anyone but with some knowledge about diverse things, too. But after noticing all skills that may be useful - I count 20 or so ;) - I surely have the character to be more specialized in some skills or more dilettante in many skills. (Or maybe I choose to take the changeling rogue substitution level at first level to gain (10+INT-Mod.) x4 skill points :D)
FriendoftheDork 12-12-05, 11:00 AM	My DM worries more about fluff than crunch. He said it might be okay, but he couldn´t say how to edit the bard exactly, so I asked here... Thanks for the suggestions, they seem quite useful. I will ask my DM about this. The ability to cast spells is why I take bard not rouge, so this would be the worst option. Loosing the proficiencies or bardic music would not be that important. At the moment, I think about taking a level rouge anyway because I saw the bard do not have all the skills as class skills of which I thought he has. I want this character (a changling) to take the Chameleon PrC later. So he should be as variable as possible - able to masquerade as anyone but with some knowledge about diverse things, too. But after noticing all skills that may be useful - I count 20 or so ;) - I surely have the character to be more specialized in some skills or more dilettante in many skills. (Or maybe I choose to take the changeling rouge substitution level at first level to gain (10+INT-Mod.) x4 skill points :D) Not bad, not bad. Well in your case I'd drop martial prof and light armor proficiency, it suits alot better that a scholar bard do not train fighting much. Rogues may have access to a few more skills (can't remember which ones), but remember bards have something rogues don't; knowledge skills as class skills. 20 skills? Hehe, goodluck. Well when you "dilletante" a skill you should have no more 5 ranks, enough to get synergies. Some skills however you can't have enough ranks it, such as spot, listen, use magic device, search (espec. if you rogue as well), possibly disable device. To be effective you should have at least 4 skills maxed out, not necessarily the ones I mentioned.
nonsi 12-12-05, 12:29 PM	1. talk to your DM about trading a feat for Trapfinding. 2. by 4th level you can have an additional skill point / level & fill in the missing slots. 3. what's your CHA score ?
Werwoelfin 12-12-05, 12:50 PM	Not bad, not bad. Well in your case I'd drop martial prof and light armor proficiency, it suits alot better that a scholar bard do not train fighting much. Rogues may have access to a few more skills (can't remember which ones), but remember bards have something rogues don't; knowledge skills as class skills. And rogue have something bards dont; spot is a class skill ;) ...and search. That skill is really useful in Eberron (investigating) adventures. 20 skills? Hehe, goodluck. Well when you "dilletante" a skill you should have no more 5 ranks, enough to get synergies. Some skills however you can't have enough ranks it, such as spot, listen, use magic device, search (espec. if you rogue as well), possibly disable device. To be effective you should have at least 4 skills maxed out, not necessarily the ones I mentioned. I thought of these: disguise (-> changeling!), bluff (Have you called for me, a cleric of the silver flame? g), concentration (a chameleon is able to cast divine or/and arcane spells) and spellcraft (a chameleon needs a spell book as a wizard to prepare spells). Spot and listen would be fine, too - but that´s my problem, not, mhm, never enough skill points ;) To fullfill the prerequisites of the chameleon PrC I have to take the able learner feat, so cross skills do not cost more than class skills. At the moment, I´m not sure about how the character would normally earn money. It is just certain that he will not have a regular job (= profession or craft in D&D terms). The possibilities I´m thinking of are entertainment as common for a bard or dealing with secret informations and/or thievery making him a little bit more stealthy... :lightbulb Alchemy and forgery would be very interesting and would fit nice to a changeling chameleon I began roleplaying with some powergamers, so sometimes I just forget that "only" 5 ranks + ability modifier are pretty good. (Especially in Eberron where NPCs mostly have around 5 levels...) Dilettante skills will make it, too ;)
Werwoelfin 12-12-05, 01:11 PM	1. talk to your DM about trading a feat for Trapfinding. 2. by 4th level you can have an additional skill point / level & fill in the missing slots. 3. what's your CHA score ? 1. It´s not yet sure I will even take a level rogue. It's an alluring option but I want a caster level of 5 before starting with chameleon, so pure bard would be the fastest way to fullfill the prerequisites for the PrC and get the cl as well. Anyway, I dont think that he would allow this. 2. That was exactly what I´ve planned to do. (But unfortunately, unlike a CON-increasing it´s not retroacting.) 3. CHA score is 14.
nonsi 12-13-05, 01:19 AM	1. It´s not yet sure I will even take a level rouge. It's an alluring option but I want a caster level of 5 before starting with chameleon, so pure bard would be the fastest way to fullfill the prerequisites for the PrC and get the cl as well. Anyway, I dont think that he would allow this. 2. That was exactly what I´ve planned to do. (But unfortunately, unlike a CON-increasing it´s not retroacting.) 3. CHA score is 14. 1. Once again, I was talking about trading a feat as a bard for Trapfinding & search as class skill. If you take a human, the loss won't be so fainful. Btw, I'm not familiar with the chameleon PrC. Do you have a link to the statistics? is it truly worth giving up spell levels? 2. Where is it written that skill accumulation is not retroactive ? 3. If you change your mind and decide to go full bard, you'll have to boost it up.
Werwoelfin 12-13-05, 04:15 AM	1. Once again, I was talking about trading a feat as a bard for Trapfinding & search as class skill. If you take a human, the loss won't be so fainful. Btw, I'm not familiar with the chameleon PrC. Do you have a link to the statistics? is it truly worth giving up spell levels? So, I definitely misunderstood you. Search and trapfinding would be fine but they're not that important. I´m still rasping my concept, so I can change the priorites a little bit. More about the chameleon (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/iw/20041210b&page=1) I think chameleon is a very acceptable PrC for a bard. Arguing with spell levels - A bard gets 6th level spells at level 16 if his CHA is 22-23. The earliest level at which you´re able to start with the chameloen PrC is level 6. Using the Arcane Focus, you´re able to cast 6th level arcane spells at character level 14 (if you have a INT of 22-23) and your caster level would be 18. The spells can be taken from any arcane spell casting class, so you´re able to take bard spells but you´re not limited to a few spells known - at least if´re able to get lots of bard spell scrolls to copy them to your spell book. (A chameleon needs to prepare arcane spells like a wizard.) In addition, you might prepare divine spells, too. As you get "double aptitude" at 7th level (of the PrC). Where is it written that skill accumulation is not retroactive ? I just meant, if you raise your INT at level 4 and you have a higher INT-Modifier afterwards, you don`t get an additional skill point for your previous three levels. 3. If you change your mind and decide to go full bard, you'll have to boost it up. I´ll keep that in mind but I don't think I would decide to go full bard. I like the idea of the chameleon too much.
CaoSlayer 12-15-05, 10:22 AM	Low this bab to mage bab and every DM will acept it as balanced.
Werwoelfin 12-15-05, 11:40 AM	Low this bab to mage bab and every DM will acept it as balanced. What if someone plans to take only one bard level? So, if he use this variant he will have no losses but will get two additional skill points...
nonsi 12-15-05, 03:12 PM	So, I definitely misunderstood you. Search and trapfinding would be fine but they're not that important. I´m still rasping my concept, so I can change the priorites a little bit. More about the chameleon (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/iw/20041210b&page=1) I think chameleon is a very acceptable PrC for a bard. Arguing with spell levels - A bard gets 6th level spells at level 16 if his CHA is 22-23. The earliest level at which you´re able to start with the chameloen PrC is level 6. Using the Arcane Focus, you´re able to cast 6th level arcane spells at character level 14 (if you have a INT of 22-23) and your caster level would be 18. The spells can be taken from any arcane spell casting class, so you´re able to take bard spells but you´re not limited to a few spells known - at least if´re able to get lots of bard spell scrolls to copy them to your spell book. (A chameleon needs to prepare arcane spells like a wizard.) In addition, you might prepare divine spells, too. As you get "double aptitude" at 7th level (of the PrC). I just meant, if you raise your INT at level 4 and you have a higher INT-Modifier afterwards, you don`t get an additional skill point for your previous three levels. I´ll keep that in mind but I don't think I would decide to go full bard. I like the idea of the chameleon too much. I see. I guess I didn't read it propperly. the way you present thing, the chameleon a really atractive PrC. and regarding the INT increase I got you the 1st time, I just want to know where it is written specifically, that when INT goes up it doesn't grant you skill slots of previous levels (as opposed to total HP by class, level & increased CON).
Werwoelfin 12-16-05, 07:25 AM	I see. I guess I didn't read it propperly. the way you present thing, the chameleon a really atractive PrC. and regarding the INT increase I got you the 1st time, I just want to know where it is written specifically, that when INT goes up it doesn't grant you skill slots of previous levels (as opposed to total HP by class, level & increased CON). It is written at the end of chapter 1 in PHB. There´s an example of what happens when your INT increases. It explicitly states that the charcter (in that example Mialee) does not get additional points for their previous levels.
CaoSlayer 12-20-05, 05:48 AM	What if someone plans to take only one bard level? So, if he use this variant he will have no losses but will get two additional skill points... Really actually a single bard level chip isnt almost worth nothing, you just get some cantrips, whip proficient, two good saves,basic bardic knowledge and 1 use of bardic music...
Werwoelfin 12-20-05, 07:23 AM	Really actually a single bard level chip isnt almost worth nothing, you just get some cantrips, whip proficient, two good saves,basic bardic knowledge and 1 use of bardic music... One of my characters have only one bard level. It was a good way to fullfill a special requisitie for a PrC (proficiency with whip), getting song of courage and much more skillpoints at first Level than a sorceress would have got.
Millennium 12-20-05, 01:05 PM	Why not just take a rogue level or two every now and then? In addition to getting you some extra skill points, this will help boost your melee combat ability. You'll give up a bit of magical ability in the process, but since you're already focusing on INT rather than CHA it shouldn't be as much of a problem.