Post/Author/DateTime	Post
Gargazon 10-27-07, 08:30 PM	Soon I want to start a new campaign with my group, but before I want to iron out some of the annoyances of 3.5 with my own house rules (by using some ideas inspired by Star Wars SAGA). See what you think :P Firstly, saving defences instead of saving throws. My first thought was to basically have saving throws like this: Saving Defence: 10 + normal saving throw modifier And obviously to counter this I would do the reverse for spell and attack DCs - turning them from DCs of X to attack rolls of X - 10. Very easy formula, very easy to work out on the fly from a normal stat block. But it seemed wrong, mainly as some creatures had an insane value for their saving defences, and most spellcasters had to use their highest-level save-forcing spells to be able to affect these creatures more than 5% of the time. So I changed the basic mechanic as so: Saving Defence: 10 + 3/4 HD + 2 if good save + corresponding ability score + miscellaneous bonuses The bonus for a good save is a +2 class bonus, which does not stack with other class bonuses. And bang goes the saving throw advantage of multiclassing. Now for spells (and other abilities) that were normally save-forcers, they are based off the attackers BAB. To make this more balanced all poor BABs are bumped up to average BABs. Save Attack: BAB + normal corresponding ability score + 1/2 spell level (if applicable) or 1/4 HD (if not a spell-like ability) Which should really work out fine... right? Well, with an example... a 5th level Wizard with Int 16 casts fireball at a 5th level Rogue with Dex 16. The Wizard has a +7 attack against a Reflex Defence of 19 (assuming cloak of resistance +1). The Wizard might then cast Charm Person with a +6 attack against the Rogues measly Will of 14 (he has Wis 10 and cloak of resistance +1). The 5th level Dragon Shaman with Con 15 uses his breath weapon on the same Rogue, and he has a +6 attack against the Rogue's reflex. I should also note I'm using Reflex Defence for touch attacks. This creates some weird situations as Rogues are harder to touch than to hit with a blade. ---------- The other rules are relating to full attack actions - or rather, the lack of them. What would normally be a full attack action is now being carried out as a standard action. However, you do not get extra attacks from a high BAB in the same way. When you have a BAB of +6, you may choose as a standard action to make one attack at your full BAB or two at your BAB -5. When you have a BAB of +11, you may choose as a standard action to make one attack at your full BAB, two at your BAB -5 or three at your BAB -10. Essentially, accuracy is being sacrificed for speed. Also, two-weapon fighting and charging is handled exactly as in SAGA: You have a -10 penalty on both weapon attacks if you don't have two-weapon fighting, -5 with two-weapon fighting, -2 with improved two-weapon fighting and -0 with greater two-weapon fighting. Charging is a standard action where you move up to your base land speed (and a minimum of 10 feet) and make an attack action with a +2 bonus on the attack roll, and causing a -2 penalty to AC. Simple. ---------- The other rules I'm using aren't so complicated, so here's a summary: All characters gain a bonus on all hit point damaging rolls they make equal to 1/2 their level in a non-NPC class (note this does not take into account monster HD). This makes villains with PC class levels more of a fight, and dragons no more of a fight. There are no save-or-die spells. The death effect is instead replaced with 2d6/level damage. Druids use the alternate class feature in PH2 instead of Wild Shape and Animal Companion. Thus stopping the lightning-storm casting Tyrannosaurus. And maybe a few more... Anyway, I would appreciate feedback on these ideas, and maybe even some suggestions of better/other ideas to include! P.S. was tired at time of posting, so please excuse any typos :D
Gargazon 10-29-07, 12:06 PM	Wow, 50 views and noone has any comments? I don't know if that's a good sign or not. :(
Rustmonster 10-29-07, 02:26 PM	Wow, 50 views and noone has any comments? I don't know if that's a good sign or not. :( I only have one comment. This just seems really, well, unneccesary. I can understand the save defense thing. But then you just kind of kept adding and and removing and adding and removing, etc. This just seems very confusing. Some of the numbers seem relativly random (1/4, 3/4, etc.) I think few people have commented because this is a very hard to digest post. There is much text, and it isn't very organized. It is also relativly confusing. PS, I beleive UA had a system of giving a seperate "Magic BAB" to every class. Try checking that out.
Gargazon 10-29-07, 07:32 PM	I had hoped my initial explanation wasn't that horrible a block of text, but apparently not... Yes, I have created another text block, but hopefully a nicer one. ---------- To Rustmonster It is unnecessary, yes, but it is a much, much nicer system to run the game by. It requires less book work, and the changes you have to make to existing stat blocks are very small. As for the magic rating system in Unearthed Arcana, it goes against the purposes of this system - which is to create less bookwork and make things that little bit easier to run at a more balanced rate. ---------- More Nasty Rules Text I think I'll explain some of the reasoning behind the numbers, then, and see if that sheds some light on why I chose them. And try to show things in a clearer light. Save Defence = 10 + 3/4 Character Level + Misc Modifier* (such as Ability modifiers) + 2 if good Class save* *Incase it isn't clear, you completely ignore the saving throw columns in the normal class description, except to note which saves are you good saves and your bad saves. Now, in SW:SAGA you get your full character level added to your Save Defence. This doesn't really work out well in the current magic-item orientated 3.5 D&D. However, if I assume every 20th level character has a cloak of Resistance +5 (as I don't believe a higher version is listed in the DMG) then this formula essentially gives the same effect. This has the side-effect of giving you higher saving defences than if you used the Unearthed Arcana method, but it is balanced with my new save attack rules. Save Attack = BAB + Key Ability Modifier* + Misc Modifier** + 1/2 spell level or 1/4 HD (if not a spell-like ability) *The usual ability modifier for that attack, for example Charisma for a Sorceror's spell. ** Abilities that would modify the attacks DC are added as a bonus to the attack. I imagine this is the thing that makes the least sense. Why 1/2 spell level and 1/4 HD? Well, because that works with the formula. A 9th level spell is a +4 bonus which balances out the +5 bonus granted purely by virtue of gear. And as it is now technically an attack roll is balanced out with the buffs the party and monsters will be throwing around. ---------- Examples of How it Works: Take Jim. He's a 20th level Wizard with an Int of 20 (he's not got his gear on :P). Just by looking at him now I can say he'll have base saves of 15, with 17 as his Will due to that being the good save of the Wizard. He'll also have a magic attack equal to +20 + 1/2 the level of any spell he casts. So his 9th level spells are +24. Take Fred. He's a 20th level Rogue with a Dex of 20 (he's also not got his gear on). On inspection I see he also has base saves of 15, with 17 as his Reflex. However, he has 20 Dex so his Reflex Defence is 22. It took about four seconds of simple maths to work out what are probably the more confusing aspects of a character. How is that not a good thing? And, even better, looking at this I can see that while naked the two characters aren't so unevenly matched. If they were fully kitted up the favour would probably swing towards the Rogue dodging any Heightened Fireballs. ---------- Closing Comments: This is probably what my first post should've been, so I might edit it at some point. I hope that explains some of the reasons behind this.
Rustmonster 10-29-07, 09:32 PM	After re-reading the UA spell rating system, yes, it actually sounds a bit silly. To make it a little better, try replacing the A B C catagories with standard BAB catagories (Fighter [1/HD], Cleric [3/4/HD], Wizard [1/2/HD]) Then add key ability. It works out to: "Magic BAB" + Key ability I bet you'll agree that this reduces book keeping as much (and in my opinion more than) your system. This makes "spell ratings" more like BAB, which everyone already understands. It also makes more sense, as in your system, a level 1 wizard/19 fighter with 20 INT has a save attack thingy of 24 as well, which is rather silly. It makes "Magic BAB" different than "Physical BAB". For save defense, that 3/4 still bothers me. It just seems... out of place. Also, it makes that +2 you get from good save eventually pretty arbitrary when you get into the higher levels. I'd say something along the lines of: Good saves: Level + Key ability Poor saves: 1/2 Level + Key ability This goes relativly well, as it makes a good save really mean something, as well as making multiclassing math simpler. It also works well witht he newly increased accuracy of spells.
Gargazon 10-30-07, 01:53 PM	I had considered the seperate BAB idea for magic, but as I've increased the poor BAB of pure spellcasting classes (like Wizard and Sorceror) to average BAB that seemed unnecessary. Wizards cast as good as Clerics and other pure spellcasting classes. I don't agree that it's less book-keeping - you have to record two seperate attack bonuses, while by this system you need only need to keep one ready. The Wizard 1/Fighter 19 isn't much of a problem, as he's only casting 1st level spells at a caster level of 1 (unless he blew feats on practiced spellcaster). However, that does raise the problem of Gish builds, and possibly Duskblades and Hexblades being a bit more powerful then they normally would (though I believe the latter two could use the boost). As for saves, while I like the system you suggested, I don't like the numbers a character will end up with when compared to what the Wizard will have with which to beat them. Perhaps if at, say, level 10 or 11 the character got an additional +2 bonus to the good save of its highest-level class (though this really puts the Favoured Soul and Monk above the rest) this would seem better?
Rustmonster 10-30-07, 04:19 PM	I had considered the seperate BAB idea for magic, but as I've increased the poor BAB of pure spellcasting classes (like Wizard and Sorceror) to average BAB that seemed unnecessary. Wizards cast as good as Clerics and other pure spellcasting classes. I don't agree that it's less book-keeping - you have to record two seperate attack bonuses, while by this system you need only need to keep one ready. The Wizard 1/Fighter 19 isn't much of a problem, as he's only casting 1st level spells at a caster level of 1 (unless he blew feats on practiced spellcaster). However, that does raise the problem of Gish builds, and possibly Duskblades and Hexblades being a bit more powerful then they normally would (though I believe the latter two could use the boost). As for saves, while I like the system you suggested, I don't like the numbers a character will end up with when compared to what the Wizard will have with which to beat them. Perhaps if at, say, level 10 or 11 the character got an additional +2 bonus to the good save of its highest-level class (though this really puts the Favoured Soul and Monk above the rest) this would seem better? It's good to know I've got you thinking. Keep tweaking, do some testing, keep working at it. You've got some good ideas right here. Good luck.