Post/Author/DateTime	Post
Pellanor 10-27-06, 05:12 PM	I like the VP/WP system, I really do. Unfortunately I feel it has a few flaws, which become more and more obvious at higher levels. The big thing I don't like about it is how easy it is for a character to be one-hit-killed. Some people like the idea that a lucky hit can take out a High Level character in a single blow, killing him in a single blow. I don't. I like the the idea of a lucky hit inflicting large amounts of potentially lethal damage that has a long lasting side effect, even to high level characters. Anyways, I'm looking for some solutions for getting this feeling into the game. Current House Rules: These are what I'm currently working on as my solution, take a look if you like. They're all open to change. * on a d20: 1 = -10 & 20 = 30. No Auto Success or Failure. * Flaws & Traits, as per normal * Weapon Groups (I'm still debating on this one) * VP/WP * Armour as DR and Defence Bonus * Gestalt Characters (using Fractional Saves and Attack bonus). * Limiting Classes to Base Only (Any WotC source). * All characters will receive a few bonus "Flavour" skill points, which will go to things like Craft and Profession. (Haven't figured out an exact number yet) * To Avoid extra paperwork, characters do not down-level due to resurrection or exp loss. They instead gain a number of negative levels equal to the difference between their current level and the level they would be at with their current XP total. As per normal, with the following changes: Death and Dying: - Disabled at 0 - Unconscious and Dying at -Max(Con Mod, Cha Mod) - Dead at -(MAX(Charisma, Con) + Character Level) Healing: - Heal 1 WP per day. If below 0 WP then a Heal Check is required. If above 0 then a Heal check increases the Healing rate to be equal to the character's Con Mod (min 2 per day) - Spells convert WP equal to their level into VP and heal a number of VP as per normal.You apply the better of your Defence Bonus or your Armour bonus to your AC. You don't apply your Defence Bonus to your Flat Footed. You don't apply your Armour Bonus to your Touch AC. You receive your Armour Check Penalty to your Defence Bonus. Armour provides DR = Armour Bonus (Including Enchantment) / 2 (rounded down) - [Stacks with other sources of /- DR] Armour converts Armour Bonus - DR (provided by armour) worth of WP damage to VP, assuming there's VP to be damaged. Here's a few of the key things I'm looking for, some of which I think I've taken care of, others which still need work. - WP damage must not be easy to heal. If you're taking WP damage, you'll have WP damage for a while. - When a character has taken WP damage, they should be penalized in some non-trivial, yet non-crippling way. - It shouldn't be any easier to instantly kill you in this system than it is in Vanilla. Thanks in advance for your feedback and ideas.
Darth Sephiroth 10-27-06, 06:39 PM	You still don't cover the biggest gaps in the VP/WP system. Constructs and Undead
rice830 10-29-06, 10:01 PM	Yes. Constructs and undead are so much more powerful with the VP/WP systems. I believe that the undaed should have some sort of WPs at least, maybe Str or somthing. They use Cha a lot but it is never really making sense in my head. Im not sure how to handle the conflict, but there needs to be someting tobe done with consturcts, undead, and high level instant kills. It makes me mad the the vampire with a 24 Dex doesnt have vitality so that i cant say, "It swings the sword it wields up and swiftly dodges your attack," other than "it stands there and you hit it..."
Pellanor 10-30-06, 07:08 PM	Would giving Constructs and Undead a flat 10 WP, and then normal VP work? That keeps the same feeling, while not actually strengthening or weakening them.
Ra-Tiel 10-31-06, 07:35 AM	Would giving Constructs and Undead a flat 10 WP, and then normal VP work? That keeps the same feeling, while not actually strengthening or weakening them. Why not just give them WPs equal to the bonus HPs they'd otherwise receive for their size? Just a suggestion, of course. On the WP system itself... I am working on a custom campaign setting myself and was looking for a more "dangerous" and "real" system than HPs. My first idea was going with the WP system, but then something occured to me. If you are using the suggested modification of scaling extra damage dice down to a single extra damage point on a critical hit (eg, on a critical hit a flaming longsword deals 1d8 + 1 points of damage instead of 1d8 + 1d6), there are situations when a normal hit is much more deadly than a critical hit. Just think of a character being almost out of VPs and then being hit by a rogue or a weapon with many elemental enhancements. Eg, the character has 14 WPs and 3 VPs left. Then he gets backstabbed by a level 9 rogue with a shortsword. As it is a normal hit, and VP damage bleeds over on a 1-to-1 basis into WPs, the character now suffers 1d6 + 5d6 sneak attack + X = 6d6 + X points of damage, which will most likely reduce him to below 0 WPs. If, on the other hand, the strike was a critical hit, the rogue would have only dealt 1d6 + 5 sneak attack + X points of damage, which the character would probably have no problem surviving. After that I went for the Wound Level system from SSS's Advanced Player's Guide, but then found out that a high-level tank would basically become immune to attacks that equal to 3d8+11 weapons. Also, it poses the problem that there are possibly no attacks that can harm a given character or monster, and on the other hand there was no possible way of a character or monster surviving a certain attack. Now I'm trying to design my own system, building heavily on the Synergy Game System from the Blue Planet RPG. Basically, I do completly away with HPs, and replace that absolute "punishment tracking" with a relative version. A character can suffer 3 differently severe wounds: light, serious, and critical. A light wound merely imposes a cumulative -1 penalty to all action rolls (saves, skills, attacks, ability checks,...). A serious wound imposes a cumulative -2 penalty to all action rolls and requires a successful Will save to remain conscious. A critical wound imposes a cumulative -3 penalty to all action rolls and requires a successful Fort save to remain alive (a failed save indicates that the wound will become lethal in <Con score> rounds, while a save failed by 10 or more indicates an instantly lethal wound) and a Will save to remain conscious. Weapons are also changed for this system. Every weapon now has a base damage rating equal to the average damage (rounded down) it would have using the normal damage die (eg, a greatsword would have a damage rating of 7, since 2d6 = avg 7). To this damage rating the normal damage boosters are added (strength, enhancements, feats, ...). Each character gains a quality called "resiliency", which represents a character's ability to withstand damage. This resiliency is level dependent and reduces the total damage rating of the attack. The character's Con mod is also substracted from the damage rating. Then a "Wound check" is made with 1d20 + the total damage rating vs a DC of 20. This is then used to indicate the wound severity the target suffers on a successful hit. If the damage check fails, the target suffers a light wound. If the check is successful, the target suffers a serious wound. If the check beats the DC by 10 or more, the target suffers a critical wound. To account the differences in threat range and critical multiplier, the "Wound DC" is reduced for more dangerous weapons. For example, every 20/x2 weapon has a Wound DC of 20. A 19-20/x2 weapon's DC would be 19, as would be a 20/x3 weapon's, and so on. Note that there are no inplicit critical hits in this system. A successful attack roll merely indicates that the target was hit at all. The quality of the hit is determined by the Wound check. To sum it up in a single line: 1d20 + weapon base damage rating + all damage enhancing abilities - target's resiliency - target's Con mod vs weapon's Wound DC I'm still working on the details and this is not playtested in any way, but that's my current favorite. This system would also have the side effect of removing all other die sizes from the game, reducing it to a pure d20 system. And no, I have not seen True20. ;) Also no, this was not initially indented by me. :P
Pellanor 10-31-06, 11:42 AM	Why not just give them WPs equal to the bonus HPs they'd otherwise receive for their size? Just a suggestion, of course.Unless I'm mistaken, which I'm sure I'm not, Undead don't get bonus HP due to size. On the WP system itself... I am working on a custom campaign setting myself and was looking for a more "dangerous" and "real" system than HPs. My first idea was going with the WP system, but then something occured to me. If you are using the suggested modification of scaling extra damage dice down to a single extra damage point on a critical hit (eg, on a critical hit a flaming longsword deals 1d8 + 1 points of damage instead of 1d8 + 1d6), there are situations when a normal hit is much more deadly than a critical hit. Just think of a character being almost out of VPs and then being hit by a rogue or a weapon with many elemental enhancements. Eg, the character has 14 WPs and 3 VPs left. Then he gets backstabbed by a level 9 rogue with a shortsword. As it is a normal hit, and VP damage bleeds over on a 1-to-1 basis into WPs, the character now suffers 1d6 + 5d6 sneak attack + X = 6d6 + X points of damage, which will most likely reduce him to below 0 WPs. If, on the other hand, the strike was a critical hit, the rogue would have only dealt 1d6 + 5 sneak attack + X points of damage, which the character would probably have no problem surviving.Great. There's something else that I hadn't thought of... Of course if I don't use min damage for critical hits then it's not an issue. Or perhaps just make it so that no attack can inflict more WP damage than the min damage that attack could have dealt. For example, a 2d6 Sneak Attack with a Greataxe, power attacking for -3 with a 15 Str could only do a max of 12 WP. So if the foe had 3 VP left, and you rolled 22 points of damage, the guy you hit would only take 3 VP and 12 WP. Time for more pondering...
Ra-Tiel 10-31-06, 01:16 PM	Unless I'm mistaken, which I'm sure I'm not, Undead don't get bonus HP due to size. Well, you're right. But for constructs this could work, don't you think? Perhaps you could give undead a number of WPs equal to their Cha score? :thinks: Great. There's something else that I hadn't thought of... Of course if I don't use min damage for critical hits then it's not an issue. Yes, because every critical hit basically kills the character. For example: a +1 flaming frost shock greatsword with strength 14: 2d6(base) + 3(strength) + 3d6(elemental) = avg 20.5, and that counted against the character's WPs? :eek: Or perhaps just make it so that no attack can inflict more WP damage than the min damage that attack could have dealt. For example, a 2d6 Sneak Attack with a Greataxe, power attacking for -3 with a 15 Str could only do a max of 12 WP. So if the foe had 3 VP left, and you rolled 22 points of damage, the guy you hit would only take 3 VP and 12 WP. Time for more pondering... Don't you think this adds unnecessary ingame calculations to combat? But your suggestion could work out. Perhaps worth a try...
Pellanor 10-31-06, 01:46 PM	Well, you're right. But for constructs this could work, don't you think? Perhaps you could give undead a number of WPs equal to their Cha score? :thinks:Hmmm... Let's take a look at this. Skeletons: All have 1 WP. No change in difficulty. Zombies: VP reduced by 3. 4 WP. No change in difficulty. Mummy: VP reduced by 3. 18 WP. Nightwalker: 36 WP. VP unchanged. One issue with just using the Size bonus as WP for constructs is that creatures of Tiny size and smaller have no WP size bonus. Also due to the multipliers for size, you would end up with this:Construct Size Bonus Hit Points Fine Cha * 1/8 Diminutive Cha * 1/4 Tiny Cha * 1/2 Small Cha + 10 Medium Cha + 20 Large Cha + 30 Huge Cha * 2 + 80 Gargantuan Cha * 4 + 240 Colossal Cha * 8 + 640 So the CR 10 Colossal Animated Object would go from 256 HP to 176 VP 648 WP. Ouch. I think the ideal thing to do here would be to make the bonus size WP not multiplied by Size as normal WP are. Yes, because every critical hit basically kills the character. For example: a +1 flaming frost shock greatsword with strength 14: 2d6(base) + 3(strength) + 3d6(elemental) = avg 20.5, and that counted against the character's WPs? :eek: Yeah, that is a fair bit of damage. However I just feel that making it do Min damage automatically Nerfs Rogues. All of their damage comes from Bonus dice, where as a barbarian gets flat +X bonuses. So while a Bararian may lose the whole of 10 damage on a crit, when reduced to Min, a Rogue instead losses 90% of their damage. That's why I'm trying to reduce the auto-death aspect of critical hits in the WP system. Don't you think this adds unnecessary ingame calculations to combat? But your suggestion could work out. Perhaps worth a try...It does add a few extra calculations, but shouldn't take that long. For example, with your sword above, just write down (Min: 8+PA) next to your damage, then when you hit for 17, just say "17 dmg, max of 8 WP".
Xeviat-DM 11-01-06, 04:33 AM	How does VP/WP make undead and constructs more difficult? They have WP equal to their standard HP, and no VP.
Pellanor 11-01-06, 11:42 AM	I don't think it actually makes them any more difficult, but it loses some flavour. VP is supposed to represent a creatures ability to avoid blows, or turn regular blows into glancing ones. A creature without VP is therefore unable to do any of the above. It just doesn't make sense that a character losses that ability simply because they become undead.
Xeviat-DM 11-08-06, 04:40 PM	Pellanor, I believe it is representing that they don't have "Vitality", as they are not alive. Any attack on them that gets through their Natural Armor and DR is physical damage (think about undead and construct DR representing their ability to turn aside blows). Most undead are still trying to dodge, as that's represented by Dex and Dodge to AC. Remember the terms: Vitality is a creature's endurance, Wounds is a creature's structure.
Pellanor 11-08-06, 05:11 PM	Remember the terms: Vitality is a creature's endurance, Wounds is a creature's structure.Vitality points are a measure of a character’s ability to turn a direct hit into a graze or a glancing blow with no serious consequences. Wound points measure how much true physical damage a character can withstand.While you are correct on WP, VP is kinda iffy... I'm going to have to sit down and think up some new house rules, then I'll get you guys to look at em again. Perhaps once I get home tonight. Actually that sounds like a really good idea :)
Ra-Tiel 11-09-06, 02:33 AM	[...] So the CR 10 Colossal Animated Object would go from 256 HP to 176 VP 648 WP. Ouch. I think the ideal thing to do here would be to make the bonus size WP not multiplied by Size as normal WP are. Yes, I was thinking of having the size-based WPs not being multiplied for size, because they are based on the construct's size in the first place. Alternatively, you could take the bonus HPs a medium sized construct gains as a base, and multiply that according to size. Yeah, that is a fair bit of damage. However I just feel that making it do Min damage automatically Nerfs Rogues. All of their damage comes from Bonus dice, where as a barbarian gets flat +X bonuses. So while a Bararian may lose the whole of 10 damage on a crit, when reduced to Min, a Rogue instead losses 90% of their damage. That's why I'm trying to reduce the auto-death aspect of critical hits in the WP system. Why nerf rogues? A sneak-attacking lvl 20 rogue still deals an extra 10 points of WP damage with a critical hit. Considering that most characters will have 14-26 WPs at all, this is quite some damage. Also, my main problem with VP/WP (at least for my setting) is the "bleeding" of VP damage into WP damage on a 1-to-1 basis. A character with say 30 VPs left and 15WPs is hit for 46 points of damage and goes into "splat" form immediately. It does add a few extra calculations, but shouldn't take that long. For example, with your sword above, just write down (Min: 8+PA) next to your damage, then when you hit for 17, just say "17 dmg, max of 8 WP". Another idea: how about an attack cannot inflict more WP damage than the maximum of the die used to roll damage, adding the minimum of all bonus dice? So, a longsword could deal a max of 8 damage, while a greatsword could deal max 12 damage. This would still keep the WP system deadly, but reduce the immediate lethality without having the players/DM to recalculate. A barbarian with Str 18 attacks with a +1 flaming greatsword, Power Attacking for 3 points. His normal damage would be: 2d6(base) + 6(strength) + 1(enhancement) + 1d6(flaming) + 6(pa) = 2d6+13+1d6. On a critical hit he would deal [2d6+13 capped at max(2d6)] + [min(1d6)] = 12+1 = 13 WP damage. A rogue with Str 14 attacks with a +1 longsword, sneak attacking for 4d6. His normal damage would be: 1d8(base) + 2(strength) + 1(enhancement) + 4d6(sa) = 1d8+3+4d6. On a critical hit he would deal [1d8+3 capped at max(1d8)] + [min(4d6)] = 4-8+4 = 8-12 WP damage.
Pellanor 11-09-06, 12:53 PM	Yes, I was thinking of having the size-based WPs not being multiplied for size, because they are based on the construct's size in the first place. Alternatively, you could take the bonus HPs a medium sized construct gains as a base, and multiply that according to size. Why nerf rogues? A sneak-attacking lvl 20 rogue still deals an extra 10 points of WP damage with a critical hit. Considering that most characters will have 14-26 WPs at all, this is quite some damage. Also, my main problem with VP/WP (at least for my setting) is the "bleeding" of VP damage into WP damage on a 1-to-1 basis. A character with say 30 VPs left and 15WPs is hit for 46 points of damage and goes into "splat" form immediately. Another idea: how about an attack cannot inflict more WP damage than the maximum of the die used to roll damage, adding the minimum of all bonus dice? So, a longsword could deal a max of 8 damage, while a greatsword could deal max 12 damage. This would still keep the WP system deadly, but reduce the immediate lethality without having the players/DM to recalculate. A barbarian with Str 18 attacks with a +1 flaming greatsword, Power Attacking for 3 points. His normal damage would be: 2d6(base) + 6(strength) + 1(enhancement) + 1d6(flaming) + 6(pa) = 2d6+13+1d6. On a critical hit he would deal [2d6+13 capped at max(2d6)] + [min(1d6)] = 12+1 = 13 WP damage. A rogue with Str 14 attacks with a +1 longsword, sneak attacking for 4d6. His normal damage would be: 1d8(base) + 2(strength) + 1(enhancement) + 4d6(sa) = 1d8+3+4d6. On a critical hit he would deal [1d8+3 capped at max(1d8)] + [min(4d6)] = 4-8+4 = 8-12 WP damage. Hmmm... some interesting ideas there. One issue I have with the two examples. In #1 average normal damage is 23.5, where as in #2 it's 21.5. Only a 2(8.5%) point difference. Yet if you look at the WP damage, #1 does 13, where as #2 does 10.75, a 2.25 (17%) point difference. Something about that just doesn't seem right to me. It would be interesting to see how that changes at higher levels though. I think it would make enlargement effects and monks really favored. For example, if you were to cast enlarge person on the character in example #1, his damage would go up to 3d6+14+1d6(28 avg), for a 4.5 point increase. WP damage on a crit, however, would go up to 18.97, for a 6.97 point increase. On a similar note, a 20th level Monk with Improved Natural Attack(Unarmed) would have a base damage of 4d8, allowing for 32+ points of WP damage. One change I've been thinking of was to make SA do +1 point of wound damage, instead of +1d6 damage. So even on a non-critical, you do some wound damage. I'm not sure how balanced that would be. It would be good at low levels, but at high levels could get to be nightmarish. Somebody also had a variant SA rule around here somewhere, that improved a rouges chances to crit. I may look at that one too.