A feat per level??? [Archive] - Wizards Community

A feat per level??? [Archive] - Wizards Community

Post/Author/DateTime Post
Bubba333
02-14-05, 04:57 AM I've heard that some have tried this and I was wondering if it worked? As a DM I can see it needing some serious adjudication, but with the OODLES of feats (many of which are very cool yet too specific to warrant taking a precious feat slot for) this seems as if it could work with some player/DM trust.

The one thing that it would do however, is nerf the Fighter. I'd say they'd still get their Fighter feats, but up it to two. Yea, this is powerful but as stated above it might work as long the DM and player worked it out. Maybe even say that the two feats had to compliment each other in some way (such as Two-Weapon Fighting going with Two-Weapon Defense).

Any thoughts (other than "It sucks! Don't do it!" ;))
Elgonn
02-14-05, 05:00 AM It only works if you aren't playing strictly core. A feat every other level is a nice increase without getting nearly as ridiculous. With a feat a level people end up with virtually every single useful feat.
strenoth
02-14-05, 05:05 AM oh, for one game I was running, I did somethign close to this, but threw in that 1/2 the feats have to be non-combat feats (including non item creation)
Bubba333
02-14-05, 09:37 AM I'm definetely NOT using just the PHB, which is why this an issue in the first place.

It's feats such as "Able Sniper" and "Improved Brachiation" that spawned this. They're nice feats and all, but as I stated earlier they're very specific and/or don't have that much "bang for yer' buck".
Braids
02-14-05, 09:52 AM Andy Collins is doing it, (http://www.andycollins.net/Campaigns/Umber/c08_feat_rules.htm) but he's weakened the wealth and plays a low magic world,
Ut-Napishtim
02-14-05, 10:09 AM I know a couple folks that like this and do it in their games. They are powergamers and usually run FR games where the PC's start at at least 5th level with double the PC gear value for their level so they can have oodles of magic items too. I don't play with them any more, in fact I had to kick one out of my group and the other left voluntarily after I wouldn't let him play a race with a +5 LA.
Shadowbane
02-14-05, 03:44 PM I like this topic alot, and it has got me thinking a bit. I think I will make a game and allow everyone to take 1 extra feat at first level and again at 2nd level then a bonus feat ever even level after that, but you must govern the feat type. Make it to where people should take the feats like endurance and skill bonus feats etc...

The one problem is the fighter. I will either just take him out of the game or give him even more feats. Maybe 1 feat every level.

There are so many great feats out there that will never get used because with a normal PC getting 6 feats in 20 levels, you dont have the luxury of taking feats that are not life saving.

I really think feats make the PCs who they are, and having more feats will just make the players that different. You could play a rogue ten times and not have one be anything like the other under this feat system.

The monsters and NPCs will have to be granted extra feats as well to balance this.

Great thread, I'm glad I stopped in to read it! It's got my wheels spinning big time.

Late
Elgonn
02-14-05, 03:45 PM The monsters and NPCs will have to be granted extra feats as well to balance this.

The biggest balance issue is actually Prestige Class access.
Executrix Swordslasher
02-14-05, 04:06 PM Ummm...
nice topic
seriously one of the headaches i get whenever i play a low level game is wut feat, outta the hundred of them out there, to get.

I use 1 feat per 2 levels, plus 1 epic feat per 2 epic levels in my game, we're at level fifty-two and my players STILL dont have enough feat slots! lol. But yeah it works pretty well, as long as you're not the type of DM that complains bout munchkins.
Bubba333
02-14-05, 06:21 PM <<There are so many great feats out there that will never get used because with a normal PC getting 6 feats in 20 levels, you dont have the luxury of taking feats that are not life saving.>>

Exactly!

I like the idea of a feat every odd level which grants only 3 more than normal. Admittedly, I'm not sure about the two feats for the Fighter as it grants 22 feats, as opposed to 11. This reasoning is more for player/DM sanity than PC/NPC power. ;)

So, what's the opinion on a feat every other odd character level, but keeping the Fighter the same? They're still getting 11 more feats than the extra three other classes are. That doesn't seem as nerfing to me, what do you all think?
Ze_Mighty_Vegetable
02-14-05, 07:56 PM <<There are so many great feats out there that will never get used because with a normal PC getting 6 feats in 20 levels, you dont have the luxury of taking feats that are not life saving.>>

Exactly!

I like the idea of a feat every odd level which grants only 3 more than normal. Admittedly, I'm not sure about the two feats for the Fighter as it grants 22 feats, as opposed to 11. This reasoning is more for player/DM sanity than PC/NPC power. ;)

So, what's the opinion on a feat every other odd character level, but keeping the Fighter the same? They're still getting 11 more feats than the extra three other classes are. That doesn't seem as nerfing to me, what do you all think?

You have to weight the fighter'ds advantage (his feats) vs the other classes advantages. Already, the fighter's underpowered at high levels. More feats for everybody would reduce the fighter's advantage without compensating him. a fighter got feats and that's about it (poor save, good BAB, but so's the barbarian). Your idea would nerf the fighter (and he really don't need to be nerfed).
Razoreface
02-14-05, 08:42 PM Collins is a pretty experienced DM though. :)

It's actually possible in Modern, not even extremely hard, to get almost a 1:1 ratio of feats, bonus feats, and class ability feats. But not all of them are extremely useful. Usually feat lists overlap, and you've already got most of the useful things so end up with things like Toughness and +2/+2 skill feats. Of course, in Modern those feats aren't really quite as useless as they've tended to be in normal D&D power level games.
MadBlue
02-14-05, 11:42 PM So, what's the opinion on a feat every other odd character level, but keeping the Fighter the same? They're still getting 11 more feats than the extra three other classes are. That doesn't seem as nerfing to me, what do you all think?In my next campaign, I'm going to grant bonus Feats for high Charisma (http://boards1.wizards.com/showthread.php?t=368471), but I really like the idea of level-based Feats being every odd number level, too.

MadBlue
cainblueriver76
02-17-05, 07:44 PM In one game group I am with we are using as a house rule that your characters get their starting wisdom bonus in additional feats.

We have tried the feat every level, it makes things a little too powerful, a feat every even level works well for us though. (most of us take at least 50% non combat oriented feats)

in a game ran by one of the other GMs in the group humans get 2x normal feats instead of 1 additional feat at 1st level (needless to say this is a powergame)
Ut-Napishtim
02-18-05, 04:30 AM So, what's the opinion on a feat every other odd character level, but keeping the Fighter the same? They're still getting 11 more feats than the extra three other classes are. That doesn't seem as nerfing to me, what do you all think?

That seems fairly balanced to me, Bubba. As you said, that's only three more than normal - and they're spread accross 19 levels. The Fighter's 11 bonus Feats are still more than everyone else's normal total (10), and even though they'll have their own class bonus feats or abilities to compensate it shouldn't be too bad. Most of my players only level dip in Fighter for some BAB and bonus Feats anyway, and since they're the only class that can pursue the weapon specialization chain I think it would work out alright for my group. I'm probably not going to change it in my game since my players have enough trouble keeping the rules straight as it is, but I don't have a problem with it.
:ayyyy!:
Lina_Inverse
02-18-05, 04:39 AM im doing a feat every odd level personally.
of course i rewrote the phb.this makes it so no class has dead levels in a straight run(if they have an ability every even,they always at least get a feat)and of course,i rebalence fighters to adress.actully i rebalenced all the classes but thats not the point.
Bubba333
02-18-05, 05:08 AM <<I'm probably not going to change it in my game since my players have enough trouble keeping the rules straight as it is, but I don't have a problem with it.>>

:D That is SO funny!!! And SO true!!!
sollmn
02-18-05, 09:04 AM If you add a couple skills to the Fighter's Class Skills list, like diplomacy, heal, knowledge (nobility), knowledge (local), profession, and use rope, then give them 4 skill points per level, you make the fighter even more a professional-feeling smart-warrior, even if they have a low intelligence. It also makes them a better natural leader, which a charismatic fighter would not be able to do without diplomacy. Then take away the free fighter feat at 1st level, which discourages the silly fighter level-dipping.

I rule it that way. If you then also have a feat for everyone at every odd level (thus adding three feats over 20 levels) playing a straight fighter ends up being a lot of fun. You get a mess more skill-points, even enouh to buy some cross-class skills, and you end up with exactly 1 feat every single level (plus a bonus human one if you go that route).
Bubba333
02-18-05, 01:06 PM One thing I've also done is make Cross-Class skills 1-for-1 in cost. It always bugged me that it's twice as hard to learn a skill that's Cross-Class, especially if it was at one time a Class Skill. For example, if you were a Rogue and then became a Fighter, why is picking a lock suddenly harder? ;)
Lina_Inverse
02-18-05, 05:13 PM One thing I've also done is make Cross-Class skills 1-for-1 in cost. It always bugged me that it's twice as hard to learn a skill that's Cross-Class, especially if it was at one time a Class Skill. For example, if you were a Rogue and then became a Fighter, why is picking a lock suddenly harder? ;)

its not suddenly harder.its learning to pick a lock while your concentrateing on something besides rogueishness.its that your splitting your ability to learn things between whacking with sword,and sneak attacking+high skills.thus trying to learn things outside of whack with sword is harder.
Morwen
02-19-05, 02:57 AM oh, for one game I was running, I did somethign close to this, but threw in that 1/2 the feats have to be non-combat feats (including non item creation)
That sounds like the best way to keep it balanced.
sollmn
02-19-05, 09:29 AM What criteria would you use to determine if a feat is non-combat or not? For example, Skill Focus could be combat oriented, if it was Bluff, Hide, Jump, Intimidate, Move Silently, Tumble or Use Magic Device. The same could be said for many other on-the-edge feats.

Post/Author/DateTime	Post
Bubba333 02-14-05, 04:57 AM	I've heard that some have tried this and I was wondering if it worked? As a DM I can see it needing some serious adjudication, but with the OODLES of feats (many of which are very cool yet too specific to warrant taking a precious feat slot for) this seems as if it could work with some player/DM trust. The one thing that it would do however, is nerf the Fighter. I'd say they'd still get their Fighter feats, but up it to two. Yea, this is powerful but as stated above it might work as long the DM and player worked it out. Maybe even say that the two feats had to compliment each other in some way (such as Two-Weapon Fighting going with Two-Weapon Defense). Any thoughts (other than "It sucks! Don't do it!" ;))
Elgonn 02-14-05, 05:00 AM	It only works if you aren't playing strictly core. A feat every other level is a nice increase without getting nearly as ridiculous. With a feat a level people end up with virtually every single useful feat.
strenoth 02-14-05, 05:05 AM	oh, for one game I was running, I did somethign close to this, but threw in that 1/2 the feats have to be non-combat feats (including non item creation)
Bubba333 02-14-05, 09:37 AM	I'm definetely NOT using just the PHB, which is why this an issue in the first place. It's feats such as "Able Sniper" and "Improved Brachiation" that spawned this. They're nice feats and all, but as I stated earlier they're very specific and/or don't have that much "bang for yer' buck".
Braids 02-14-05, 09:52 AM	Andy Collins is doing it, (http://www.andycollins.net/Campaigns/Umber/c08_feat_rules.htm) but he's weakened the wealth and plays a low magic world,
Ut-Napishtim 02-14-05, 10:09 AM	I know a couple folks that like this and do it in their games. They are powergamers and usually run FR games where the PC's start at at least 5th level with double the PC gear value for their level so they can have oodles of magic items too. I don't play with them any more, in fact I had to kick one out of my group and the other left voluntarily after I wouldn't let him play a race with a +5 LA.
Shadowbane 02-14-05, 03:44 PM	I like this topic alot, and it has got me thinking a bit. I think I will make a game and allow everyone to take 1 extra feat at first level and again at 2nd level then a bonus feat ever even level after that, but you must govern the feat type. Make it to where people should take the feats like endurance and skill bonus feats etc... The one problem is the fighter. I will either just take him out of the game or give him even more feats. Maybe 1 feat every level. There are so many great feats out there that will never get used because with a normal PC getting 6 feats in 20 levels, you dont have the luxury of taking feats that are not life saving. I really think feats make the PCs who they are, and having more feats will just make the players that different. You could play a rogue ten times and not have one be anything like the other under this feat system. The monsters and NPCs will have to be granted extra feats as well to balance this. Great thread, I'm glad I stopped in to read it! It's got my wheels spinning big time. Late
Elgonn 02-14-05, 03:45 PM	The monsters and NPCs will have to be granted extra feats as well to balance this. The biggest balance issue is actually Prestige Class access.
Executrix Swordslasher 02-14-05, 04:06 PM	Ummm... nice topic seriously one of the headaches i get whenever i play a low level game is wut feat, outta the hundred of them out there, to get. I use 1 feat per 2 levels, plus 1 epic feat per 2 epic levels in my game, we're at level fifty-two and my players STILL dont have enough feat slots! lol. But yeah it works pretty well, as long as you're not the type of DM that complains bout munchkins.
Bubba333 02-14-05, 06:21 PM	<<There are so many great feats out there that will never get used because with a normal PC getting 6 feats in 20 levels, you dont have the luxury of taking feats that are not life saving.>> Exactly! I like the idea of a feat every odd level which grants only 3 more than normal. Admittedly, I'm not sure about the two feats for the Fighter as it grants 22 feats, as opposed to 11. This reasoning is more for player/DM sanity than PC/NPC power. ;) So, what's the opinion on a feat every other odd character level, but keeping the Fighter the same? They're still getting 11 more feats than the extra three other classes are. That doesn't seem as nerfing to me, what do you all think?
Ze_Mighty_Vegetable 02-14-05, 07:56 PM	<<There are so many great feats out there that will never get used because with a normal PC getting 6 feats in 20 levels, you dont have the luxury of taking feats that are not life saving.>> Exactly! I like the idea of a feat every odd level which grants only 3 more than normal. Admittedly, I'm not sure about the two feats for the Fighter as it grants 22 feats, as opposed to 11. This reasoning is more for player/DM sanity than PC/NPC power. ;) So, what's the opinion on a feat every other odd character level, but keeping the Fighter the same? They're still getting 11 more feats than the extra three other classes are. That doesn't seem as nerfing to me, what do you all think? You have to weight the fighter'ds advantage (his feats) vs the other classes advantages. Already, the fighter's underpowered at high levels. More feats for everybody would reduce the fighter's advantage without compensating him. a fighter got feats and that's about it (poor save, good BAB, but so's the barbarian). Your idea would nerf the fighter (and he really don't need to be nerfed).
Razoreface 02-14-05, 08:42 PM	Collins is a pretty experienced DM though. :) It's actually possible in Modern, not even extremely hard, to get almost a 1:1 ratio of feats, bonus feats, and class ability feats. But not all of them are extremely useful. Usually feat lists overlap, and you've already got most of the useful things so end up with things like Toughness and +2/+2 skill feats. Of course, in Modern those feats aren't really quite as useless as they've tended to be in normal D&D power level games.
MadBlue 02-14-05, 11:42 PM	So, what's the opinion on a feat every other odd character level, but keeping the Fighter the same? They're still getting 11 more feats than the extra three other classes are. That doesn't seem as nerfing to me, what do you all think?In my next campaign, I'm going to grant bonus Feats for high Charisma (http://boards1.wizards.com/showthread.php?t=368471), but I really like the idea of level-based Feats being every odd number level, too. MadBlue
cainblueriver76 02-17-05, 07:44 PM	In one game group I am with we are using as a house rule that your characters get their starting wisdom bonus in additional feats. We have tried the feat every level, it makes things a little too powerful, a feat every even level works well for us though. (most of us take at least 50% non combat oriented feats) in a game ran by one of the other GMs in the group humans get 2x normal feats instead of 1 additional feat at 1st level (needless to say this is a powergame)
Ut-Napishtim 02-18-05, 04:30 AM	So, what's the opinion on a feat every other odd character level, but keeping the Fighter the same? They're still getting 11 more feats than the extra three other classes are. That doesn't seem as nerfing to me, what do you all think? That seems fairly balanced to me, Bubba. As you said, that's only three more than normal - and they're spread accross 19 levels. The Fighter's 11 bonus Feats are still more than everyone else's normal total (10), and even though they'll have their own class bonus feats or abilities to compensate it shouldn't be too bad. Most of my players only level dip in Fighter for some BAB and bonus Feats anyway, and since they're the only class that can pursue the weapon specialization chain I think it would work out alright for my group. I'm probably not going to change it in my game since my players have enough trouble keeping the rules straight as it is, but I don't have a problem with it. :ayyyy!:
Lina_Inverse 02-18-05, 04:39 AM	im doing a feat every odd level personally. of course i rewrote the phb.this makes it so no class has dead levels in a straight run(if they have an ability every even,they always at least get a feat)and of course,i rebalence fighters to adress.actully i rebalenced all the classes but thats not the point.
Bubba333 02-18-05, 05:08 AM	<<I'm probably not going to change it in my game since my players have enough trouble keeping the rules straight as it is, but I don't have a problem with it.>> :D That is SO funny!!! And SO true!!!
sollmn 02-18-05, 09:04 AM	If you add a couple skills to the Fighter's Class Skills list, like diplomacy, heal, knowledge (nobility), knowledge (local), profession, and use rope, then give them 4 skill points per level, you make the fighter even more a professional-feeling smart-warrior, even if they have a low intelligence. It also makes them a better natural leader, which a charismatic fighter would not be able to do without diplomacy. Then take away the free fighter feat at 1st level, which discourages the silly fighter level-dipping. I rule it that way. If you then also have a feat for everyone at every odd level (thus adding three feats over 20 levels) playing a straight fighter ends up being a lot of fun. You get a mess more skill-points, even enouh to buy some cross-class skills, and you end up with exactly 1 feat every single level (plus a bonus human one if you go that route).
Bubba333 02-18-05, 01:06 PM	One thing I've also done is make Cross-Class skills 1-for-1 in cost. It always bugged me that it's twice as hard to learn a skill that's Cross-Class, especially if it was at one time a Class Skill. For example, if you were a Rogue and then became a Fighter, why is picking a lock suddenly harder? ;)
Lina_Inverse 02-18-05, 05:13 PM	One thing I've also done is make Cross-Class skills 1-for-1 in cost. It always bugged me that it's twice as hard to learn a skill that's Cross-Class, especially if it was at one time a Class Skill. For example, if you were a Rogue and then became a Fighter, why is picking a lock suddenly harder? ;) its not suddenly harder.its learning to pick a lock while your concentrateing on something besides rogueishness.its that your splitting your ability to learn things between whacking with sword,and sneak attacking+high skills.thus trying to learn things outside of whack with sword is harder.
Morwen 02-19-05, 02:57 AM	oh, for one game I was running, I did somethign close to this, but threw in that 1/2 the feats have to be non-combat feats (including non item creation) That sounds like the best way to keep it balanced.
sollmn 02-19-05, 09:29 AM	What criteria would you use to determine if a feat is non-combat or not? For example, Skill Focus could be combat oriented, if it was Bluff, Hide, Jump, Intimidate, Move Silently, Tumble or Use Magic Device. The same could be said for many other on-the-edge feats.