Post/Author/DateTime	Post
nonsi 12-13-06, 05:29 AM	this wasn't originally my idea, but I really felt it was a step in the right direction, so I took the original post and played with it until it felt just right. so this is how it goes... One part of D&D's stats that has always seemed odd to me was the fact that Dexterity measured speed and coordination. I think the two are loosely tied (much like strength and constitution are loosely tied), there are examples of people who have one but not the other. A marksman is undeniably dexterous, but he may be "un-agile" (it is beneficial to have fast reflexes, but your reflexes don't make you a better shot). Similarly, the fact that Wisdom encompasses your senses and your mental resilience seems odd. I can see some correlation between the two (insane people often have what could be considered a sensory disorder), but I don't think the two are directly linked. Someone could have a lot of experience but still be imperceptive. Strength: This is a measure of a character's physical power. You add your STR modifier to: • Damage rolls when using a melee weapon, a thrown weapon, or a composite bow. Off-hand attacks receive only 1/2 your STR bonus or twice a STR penalty, while two-handed attacks receive 1 1/2 times your strength bonus or 1/2 a strength penalty. • STR checks for breaking objects through force, not an attack (such as bursting chains or bending an iron bar). • Grapple, Trip, Overrun, and Bull Rush checks (both to perform and to resist). Your STR score also determines your carrying capacity, and determines the size of weapons you can wield without a penalty (if you wield a weapon your STR score is not high enough to wield, you suffer a -2 penalty to hit and -1 to initiative (cumulative). Light weapons require a 7 STR, one-handed weapons and short pole weapons require an 11 STR, and two-handed blades / maces / clubs / axes, reach weapons require a 15 STR. Weapon that are exotic for 1H use count as large weapon when held 1H and as medium weapons when held 2H. STR 19 allows wielding any non-polarm melee weapon with 1 hand at no penalties. STR 21 allows wielding any melee weapon with 1 hand at no penalties. You can only utilize 1 side of a double weapon when it's wielded 1H. These numbers are modified by +/- 4 for each size category the character is larger/smaller than medium. Dexterity: This is a measure of a character's hand-eye coordination. You add your DEX modifier to: • Melee and Ranged attack rolls • Disable Device, Hide, Move Silently, Open Locks, Ride, Sleight of Hand and Use Rope checks. Agility: This is a measure of a character's "energy level", his reflexes and his athleticism. You add your agility modifier to: • Armor Class (AC), provided that a character is not flat-footed or helpless; the amount of a character's Agility modifier that they can apply to their AC is limited by the armor they are wearing and their current encumbrance rating. • Reflex saving throws. • Balance, Climb, Escape Artist, Jump, Swim and Tumble checks. • If higher than your STR, checks to resist Bull Rush, Trips and Overruns. • For each +3 agility modifier, increase movement by 5 feet. • All "quick" creatures that gained DEX bonus - using this system, they gain agility bonus instead. Constitution: This is a measure of a character's ability to resist and withstand injury, poison, and disease. You add your CON modifier to: • Fortitude saving throws. • Concentration, Drinking* and Food Tasting* checks. • Endurance checks to resist fatigue, exhaustion, and damage from environmental effects. Intelligence: This is a measure of a character's memory and ability to learn, as well as a character's common sense. You add your INT modifier to: • The number of languages a character knows at 1st level. • The number of skill points gained each level. • Appraise, Decipher Script, Dungeoneering, Forgery and Use Magic Device checks. Wisdom: This is a measure of a character's mental resilience, mental health and application of experience to a variety of tasks. You add your WIS modifier to: • Will saving throws. • Autohypnosis, Craft, Heal, Knowledge, Profession and Survival. Perception: This is a measure of a character's senses and awareness to details. You add your perception modifier to: • Initiative checks. • Listen, Innuendo* (synergy from Bluff), Read Lips* (synergy from Spot), Search, Sense Motive, Spellcraft, and Spot checks. • Can also replace agility for AC purposes if you have Uncanny Dodge. Charisma: This is a measure of a character's force of personality. You add your charisma modifier to: • Bargain*, Bluff (& taunt), Diplomacy, Disguise, Gather Information, Handle Animal, Intimidate and Perform checks. • Certain saves that are checked with CHA modifier. • A d20 check that is based on pure luck. * A new skill to be defined. Note: Under this concept, it would be reasonable to allow ability increase every 3 levels. New skills: BARGAIN (CHA) You manage to get the best possible price, either buying or selling. The DM rolls for the player and NPC to determine the result. The one with the higher score wins. In case of a tie, no one has the upper hand. Note: I know that bargaining is an art that can lead to many different results, but this is enough to keep things simple. DRINKING / FOOD TASTING (CON) DC equals the beverage / poison DC. INNUENDO (PER, Trained Only) You know how to give and understand secret messages while appearing to be speaking about other things. Two people, for example, might seem to be talking about bakery goods when they’re really planning how to break into the evil wizard’s laboratory. You can get a basic message at DC10, a complex message at DC 15, new information at DC 20 and complex new message at DC 25. When trying to discern a message – reverse the DC’s. Retry: Generally, retries are allowed when trying to send a message, but not when intercepting one. "Take 20" – you can take 20 delivering a message, but then any listener takes 10 automatically, even if he scores lower. READ LIPS (PER, Trained Only) You can understand what others are saying by watching their lips. You must be able to see them speak and understand the speaker’s language. The base DC is 10. Add +3 to the DC for complex speech, an inarticulate speaker and for each 10’ distance. You have to concentrate on reading lips for a full minute before making the skill check, and you can’t perform some other action during this minute. You can move at half speed but not any faster, and you must maintain a line of sight to the lips being read. If the check succeeds, you can understand the general content of a minute’s worth of speaking, but you usually still miss certain details. If the check fails, you can’t read the speaker’s lips. If the check fails by 5 or more, you draw some incorrect conclusion about the speech. Read Lips synergizes spellcraft rolls.
Sinaz 12-13-06, 01:32 PM	Hrmm... let's see... Overall, it's a good effort. There are some things that stand out as semantics. Some things I, personally, don't see a need in changing. One issue is Dex vs. Agility. I've often hated the word "dexterity" because it denotes deftness with the hands. Whereas changing it to agility tends to focus it more to control of the body. I've since conceded that the word "Dexterity" is iconic in D&D, yet I consider the ability score to mean overall coordination. That it determines speed is kind of weird - where I would normally attribute short term burst speed to Strength, and long term endurance running to Constitution. The only thing coordination, i.e. Dexterity would attribute to would be making quick changes in direction and twitchy shifts in body position... not unlike running the gauntlet of a zone defense or maneuvering about a basketball court. I would nix Agility, and stick to Dex. I would just move the speed and running stats to more appropriate ability scores. Additionally, Wisdom actually has more to do with observation, and I feel separating out perception is a needless complication. With Spot checks, how do you know what to look for? What to filter out as insignificant? Though your perception is only superficially detached from your wisdom in the first few nanoseconds of sensory input, it is your wisdom that makes sense of them. Afterall, it is your wisdom that converts the wash of ambiguous colors streaming into your eyes as shapes, depth, light, dark, contrast, detail, etc. Wisdom is the collective understanding of all that you have ever perceived, and the science of applying that knowledge against the ongoing act of perceiving the world. Ok, onto the skills. BARGAIN: I don't understand the point of this. A shopper doesn't determine the prices nor the margin of profit for the vendor when he walks through the door. He influences the vendor to change his own ideals about what a good transaction is. This is where pre-existing skills like Diplomacy and Bluff come in. Largely it is a matter of roleplaying and using Diplomacy and Bluff to determine how it effects the disposition of the vendor. In essence, "Bargain" already exists in the game. You've just changed the name. Getting what you want from a vendor is not so different as getting what you want from your boss, or getting what you want from your parents. DRINK / FOOD TASTING: Although this is a nifty idea, I would attribute it more towards a knowledge or profession skill. I don't understand why you would label it CON? Afterall, you don't identify a poison by ingesting it and analyzing the symptoms before you succumb. You sample a minute amount searching for odors, tastes, superficial reactions that alert you to the presence of a poison. This is more of a Wisdom or Intelligence skillset. INNUENDO: is awfully close to sense motive. So close as to persuade me to say this is an overcomplication. READ LIPS: again, going back to my arguments about Wisdom vs. Perception, I'd say that this is well handled as an ad-hoc adjudication of Sense Motive (which is a WIS skill). I might go so far as to put this as a subset to Profession since it may be a trained skill. Ultimately, it is an overcomplication. A "niche" skill.
jeffepp 12-13-06, 02:56 PM	I was writing my own RPG when 3rd ed was anounced, and continued off and on until 3.5 came out. I stopped when I realized that what I had would never compeet with DnD 3.5. I had a total of ten stats. Strength Constitution Dexterity: Local movement. How you moved within your personal space. Covered AC Agility: Movement over space. How fast you could move, dodge while moving etc. The faster you could move, the more damage your charge, the harder you are to hit on the fly. Intelligence Wisdom Force of Will: Psionics. Perception: Your PHYSICAL ability to see, smell, touch, etc. Attractiveness: How pretty/hansom you are. Charisma The problem with adding the stats to DnD is that you would have to write or re-right almost all of the rules to the game. In my RPG, both Dex and Agil had effects on AC, and both could be lowered by heavy armor without training. A fast, heavy character like a centaur could do massive damage in a combat charge in those rules. Its hard to explain here how much you would have to change to make this work. It could be done, and may even look like DnD at first glance, but it would not be DnD as we know it. It would be another game with very different rules.
nonsi 12-13-06, 03:40 PM	I would normally attribute short term burst speed to Strength I seriously doubt any world leading sprinter could rival even an amateur body builder at bench-pressing. They're undeniably strong and flexible in comparison to their body weight – that's agility my friend. The only thing coordination, i.e. Dexterity would attribute to would be making quick changes in direction and twitchy shifts in body position... That would still require muscle tissue to withstand the stress. Again we're talking about horse-power per pound = Agility. That's exactly what the gymnasts are so good at. With Spot checks, how do you know what to look for? What to filter out as insignificant? Though your perception is only superficially detached from your wisdom in the first few nanoseconds of sensory input, it is your wisdom that makes sense of them. Afterall, it is your wisdom that converts the wash of ambiguous colors streaming into your eyes as shapes, depth, light, dark, contrast, detail, etc. That's nice in theory, but I've known several philosophical brainiacs who couldn't spot water if they were submerged in it. The reality is that we're talking about different areas in the brain. You spot with your senses, not your deep insightful analysis. A shopper doesn't determine the prices nor the margin of profit for the vendor when he walks through the door. … This is where pre-existing skills like Diplomacy and Bluff come in. Depends on the campaign and the DM. … You could get away with lying through your teeth and getting the devil's child to like you. That won't make you someone who can get the better deal. DRINK / FOOD TASTING For the second I tend to agree. The 1st is definitely how much you can stomach. INNUENDO: is awfully close to sense motive. INNUENDO is a technique, an art in fact. You have to know the method - what to look for and how to state you mind. READ LIPS: again, going back to my arguments about Wisdom vs. Perception, I'd say that this is well handled as an ad-hoc adjudication of Sense Motive I know some people that could read you like an open book and still wouldn't be able to recognize a word you're saying just by sight (including someone who knows his way with Aikido – THE body language interpretation art). Another added value to my approace, is that there's no more a single "I WIN" ability (STR for fighters, INT wizards, CHA for bards and sorcerers, WIS for druids...)
Sinaz 12-13-06, 05:07 PM	I seriously doubt any world leading sprinter could rival even an amateur body builder at bench-pressing. They're undeniably strong and flexible in comparison to their body weight – that's agility my friend. Well, see, your rebuttal to the argument makes me side more in favor of the generalization of the rules. Sprinting is still largely dependent on the sheer explosive muscle power of the legs, where as bench-pressing in competition is largely dependent of the explosive muscle power of the chest and triceps (greatly imparied by the resistance of the weights.) If we are to dissect the "quickness" of the muscle power from the force then where do we stop? Do we have a stat for twitch muscle reflexes? Do we have a stat for upper-body pushing muscles and one for upper-body pulling? Do we need a stat for fine motor control vs. broad motor control? I also take issue with the use of "Agility" to mean "energy". One who is agile is able to make quick nimble movements with ease. As I mentioned before, I would compare a football player's raw sprint power to Strength, and his ability to successfully juke at such a speed Agility. That would still require muscle tissue to withstand the stress. Again we're talking about horse-power per pound = Agility. That's exactly what the gymnasts are so good at. Again your semantics baffle me. Maybe you mean a different word, but horse-power per pound is raw Strength. Fine motor control and endurance are what allow gymnasts to sustain body positions, their Strength allows them to heave, vault, and hoist their bodies, and their Agility is what allows them to target their movements precisely. Agility would best be described as twitch muscle control and reflexes. That's nice in theory, but I've known several philosophical brainiacs who couldn't spot water if they were submerged in it. The reality is that we're talking about different areas in the brain. You spot with your senses, not your deep insightful analysis. Well, I'm a philosphical brainiac, and part of the modus of being one is taking the stance of Devil's Advocate to illicit an argument. So at least I'm doing something right ;) I fail to believe you have such free thinkers who are that oblivious. Plus, they are real people, not D&D constructs. Just the same contextualizing the Wisdom ability helps to wrap it within the boundaries of a PC's true wisdom and observational skills. I further argue that your friends have high INT scores and lowish WIS scores... their philosophical debating is probably largely rote knowledge and lots of ranks in Diplomacy and Bluff. It's the difference of debating the texts of Plato's writings versus debating your interpretations of them. Depends on the campaign and the DM. … You could get away with lying through your teeth and getting the devil's child to like you. That won't make you someone who can get the better deal. What then does "BARGAIN" do if not represent a way of lying through your teeth and getting the devil's child to like you, in a proverbial sense, to influence the vendor's decisions. Now I'm beginning to visualize the "BARGAIN" skill as one's ability to swipe the pricetag printer and dial in your own prices. Go around marking everything at $2.99. For the second I tend to agree. The 1st is definitely how much you can stomach. Just remember that "testing" for poisons doesn't involve poisoning yourself to sample the symptoms. INNUENDO is a technique, an art in fact. You have to know the method - what to look for and how to state you mind. Hence... "Sense Motive" and "Bluff". It's even in the description of the skills. SENSE MOTIVE ... Discern Secret Message You may use Sense Motive to detect that a hidden message is being transmitted via the Bluff skill. In this case, your Sense Motive check is opposed by the Bluff check of the character transmitting the message. For each piece of information relating to the message that you are missing, you take a -2 penalty on your Sense Motive check. If you succeed by 4 or less, you know that something hidden is being communicated, but you can’t learn anything specific about its content. If you beat the DC by 5 or more, you intercept and understand the message. If you fail by 4 or less, you don’t detect any hidden communication. If you fail by 5 or more, you infer some false information. BLUFF ... Delivering a Secret Message You can use Bluff to get a message across to another character without others understanding it. The DC is 15 for simple messages, or 20 for complex messages, especially those that rely on getting across new information. Failure by 4 or less means you can’t get the message across. Failure by 5 or more means that some false information has been implied or inferred. Anyone listening to the exchange can make a Sense Motive check opposed by the Bluff check you made to transmit in order to intercept your message (see Sense Motive). So, I'm saying that the idea of INNUENDO is a good one, but it's already a part of the core mechanics. They just gave it a different name, a generalized it with some other skill features. I know some people that could read you like an open book and still wouldn't be able to recognize a word you're saying just by sight (including someone who knows his way with Aikido – THE body language interpretation art). Regardless of this argument, this is another thing that is already accounted for in the core rules: SPOT ... Read Lips To understand what someone is saying by reading lips, you must be within 30 feet of the speaker, be able to see him or her speak, and understand the speaker’s language. (This use of the skill is language-dependent.) The base DC is 15, but it increases for complex speech or an inarticulate speaker. You must maintain a line of sight to the lips being read. So, D&D already recognizes that reading lips is a WIS based skill. I see all you did was detatch the skill from WIS to PER, so in that sense, it was a valid decision. But I've already argued that PER should remain a portion of WIS. Another added value to my approace, is that there's no more a single "I WIN" ability (STR for fighters, INT wizards, CHA for bards and sorcerers, WIS for druids...) I don't know what you mean here. But anyrate, are you conceding to any of my arguments at all? Or are you pretty set in your system as is? Anyway, as per your topic title... these are "my thoughts." I'm just trying to give you an opposing point of view here.
Bookwyrm Pendraconis 12-13-06, 08:02 PM	First, for Read Lips and Innuendo . . . gee, didn't those used to be separate skills in 3e? Oh, yeah, they did. And they make much more sense in 3.5e. Of course, I make one change to the "read lips" aspect of Spot in 3.5: for this action, the character uses Intelligence to interperate speech, rather than Wisdom. Int was the key ability of Read Lips in 3e, and it still makes more sense that way. Allow me to demonstrate, since I can read lips. Not perfectly -- no one can read lips perfectly, since lip-movement isn't all that goes into speech -- but I can get by. I had to learn because between dyslexia and tennitus I have a hard time picking out every word of what someone says, especially in a noisy room. In effect, both my wisdom and physical sense of hearing fail me in this area, so my intelligence steps in to see particular patterns. Now, pattern-recognition could easily be a wisdom-based skill, certainly -- but remember, you're not seeing everything when you read lips, so you have to use your reason to fill in the rest. As to whether you "see" with wisdom, I say you do. Think about it; haven't you ever looked at something without realizing what it was, only to suddenly have it "click"? You don't "see" with your eyes, nor "listen" with your ears. Eyes and ears just look and hear, respectively. They collect phantasms, which are images of specific things; your wisdom (refered to in philosophy as the agent intellect) abstracts this to draw meaning from it. My Philosopy of Human Nature professor would wince if he saw that oversimplification I just made, but I'd need to go much longer to explain the details and I don't want to bore anyone. I will say one thing more, though, in case the term "agent intellect" makes you think what I'm talking about would be more appropriate to an Int score. Philosophically, your wisdom informs your intelligence; or, your agent intellect informs your possible intellect. Don't look at me like that. I didn't invent the terms. Plus I'm simplifying something that took a Ph. D. about two months to work up to explaining to his students. I'll explain more if anyone wants, but it's much more than is needed for this discussion.
DragonBringerX 12-14-06, 01:29 AM	Read lips is a spot check...check the PHB And Innuendo is now a sense motive check...also check the PHB Nice try on the agility though...I really like the idea and am all for it. The Perception idea is not as good though. Drop that. (most of my reasons were already covered above) Although I do like the idea of attractiveness...In fact I know somebody who bought the Book of Erotic Fantasies (a 3rd party book) and is all 3.5 ed and added attractiveness as an ability score. Now all joking aside, its not a bad idea...but requires too much rewrite IMO. So if ur up to it, then go for it dude.
Ranger REG 12-14-06, 02:48 AM	this wasn't originally my idea, but I really felt it was a step in the right direction, so I took the original post and played with it until it felt just right. so this is how it goes... One part of D&D's stats that has always seemed odd to me was the fact that Dexterity measured speed and coordination. I think the two are loosely tied (much like strength and constitution are loosely tied), there are examples of people who have one but not the other. A marksman is undeniably dexterous, but he may be "un-agile" (it is beneficial to have fast reflexes, but your reflexes don't make you a better shot). Similarly, the fact that Wisdom encompasses your senses and your mental resilience seems odd. I can see some correlation between the two (insane people often have what could be considered a sensory disorder), but I don't think the two are directly linked. Someone could have a lot of experience but still be imperceptive. Good Lawd, I'm having a traumatic 2nd Edition Skills and Powers subability flashback. :ghosted:
Sinaz 12-14-06, 12:24 PM	...In fact I know somebody who bought the Book of Erotic Fantasies (a 3rd party book).... I saw that ridiculous book at Borders. Lol... it's a spank book for D&D pervs. I scanned through the book and just couldn't even fathom sitting around with my group of players RPing erotica. (gross.) The photochopped photographs range from silly to disturbing.
Ranger REG 12-14-06, 04:25 PM	I saw that ridiculous book at Borders. Lol... it's a spank book for D&D pervs. It's also on MY XXX-mas wishlist. :evillaugh Americanos and their puritannical ways. :nonono:
Sinaz 12-14-06, 04:36 PM	It's also on MY XXX-mas wishlist. :evillaugh Americanos and their puritannical ways. :nonono: Hey, I resent that... I'm not puritan, I just exhibit taste when I play D&D with my boss and co-workers. Like I need to be sitting at a table describing the "Cursed Orgasm" spell to them. Just the same... it's a spank book... especially if you find naked fairies, orcs, and undead chicks spank-worthy.
Ranger REG 12-14-06, 05:33 PM	Hey, I resent that... I'm not puritan, I just exhibit taste when I play D&D with my boss and co-workers. Like I need to be sitting at a table describing the "Cursed Orgasm" spell to them. Hey, aren't you the guy on EN World that wanted to offer carrot cake to the new gaming group? :evillaugh Just the same... it's a spank book... especially if you find naked fairies, orcs, and undead chicks spank-worthy. No, that will be covered in a future supplement, Complete Spank. :evillaugh
Reversefigure4 12-15-06, 03:20 AM	Another added value to my approace, is that there's no more a single "I WIN" ability (STR for fighters, INT wizards, CHA for bards and sorcerers, WIS for druids...) Have I overlooked something here? OK, Fighters now need Dex and Str to hit, plus Agility for AC. Wizards still only need INT, and Agility to AC instead of Dex. Druids still only need Wisdom. The one who's getting truely hosed is the Monk, who now needs Str, Dex, Agil, Con, and Wisdom - one stat more from his already current MAD, plus Perception if he wants to have decent Initiative!
CroBob 12-15-06, 04:06 AM	I saw that ridiculous book at Borders. Lol... it's a spank book for D&D pervs. I scanned through the book and just couldn't even fathom sitting around with my group of players RPing erotica. (gross.) The photochopped photographs range from silly to disturbing. That book has some interesting things in it. I doubt anyone I know would bother using any large volume of material from it, but it does have a few useful ideas for those who like more life-like games, where there are people who exist who, in fact, would make use of some of the material.