A more sensible crafting system [Archive] - Wizards Community

A more sensible crafting system [Archive] - Wizards Community

Post/Author/DateTime Post
Lord_Mephisto
02-19-06, 10:27 PM I have always hated the idea of xp-penalties for using crafting skills. But some form of limitation is surely needed. Therefore, I have come up with this system:

Crafting Rules 3.5 – Handeland Edition 1.1

Definitions
Researching: The work needed to be done before any crafting may be attempted. Crafting for example a magical staff or a magical ring requires the character to know and understand all the magic involved in creating such items. This applies to all crafting of all items. The character needs to spend one skill point on level up to understand a specific item. The character can not chose to research an item which requirements and prerequisites it does not meet. In addition, the DM might enforce special requirements or prerequisites for researching a specific item.

Crafting: The work needed to create a fully researched item. Crafting a specific item is not possible before all research to the specific item is finished. This applies to all crafting of all items. The character may decide to craft one specific item which has been researched which requirements and prerequisites it meets. All needed materials and a suitable location for crafting must be available to ensure success. Crafting takes at least 1 day / 1000 gold base cost of the item being crafted. When crafting, a character cannot memorize or learn new spells during that period of time. Neither can it be involved in other strenuous activities such as battle, long conversations or many hampering disturbances. If so, crafting will fail and the gold spent. However, a character need not finish all the crafting work in one single period of time. A character can freely craft an item spending at least one full day of its total crafting time in each crafting interval. When the total crafting time has been successfully spent, the item is finished and the work completed.

Scribing: The work needed to scribe a scroll from a known spell of any level. All needed materials and a suitable location for scribing must be available to ensure success. When scribing a scroll, a character cannot memorize or learn new spells during that period of time. Neither can it be involved in other strenuous activities such as battle, long conversations or many hampering disturbances. If so, scribing the scroll will fail and the gold spent. The DM may enforce restrictions regarding suitable locations for scribing. Scribing one scroll takes at least 8 hours / 1000 gold base cost and a minimum of 8 hours.

Brewing: The work needed to brew a potion from a known spell of 3rd level or lower. All needed materials and a suitable location for brewing must be available to ensure success. When brewing a potion, a character cannot memorize or learn new spells during that period of time. Neither can it be involved in other strenuous activities such as battle, long conversations or many hampering disturbances. If so, brewing the potion will fail and the gold spent. The DM may enforce restrictions regarding suitable locations for brewing. Brewing one potion takes at least 8 hours.

Scribe Scroll
Prerequisite: Caster level 1.
Benefit: You can create a scroll of any spell that you know. Any scroll that stores a spell with a costly material component or an XP cost also carries a commensurate cost. In addition to the costs derived from the base price, you must expend the material component or pay the XP when scribing the scroll.
• Scribing a scroll takes at least 8 hours / 1000 gold base cost.
• Gold cost for scribing scrolls is 1/2 base cost.
• When scribing a scroll, a character cannot memorize or learn new spells during that period of time. Neither can it be involved in other strenuous activities such as battle, long conversations or many hampering disturbances. If so, scribing the scroll will fail and the gold spent.
• A character may scribe an amount of scrolls equal to intelligence modifier + 1 / 5 ranks in Spellcraft during each month without any XP-loss. A character may not exceed a number of total spell levels beyond 17 or beyond a total of 10 days per month.
• Scribing more scrolls during a level than above stated limit, adds an XP-loss equal to 1/25 of base cost to all involved party members included scriber not able to continue adventuring.

Brew Potion
Prerequisite: Caster level 1.
Benefit: You can create a potion of any 3rd level or lower spell that you know and that targets one or more creatures. Any potion that stores a spell with a costly material component or an XP cost also carries a commensurate cost. In addition to the costs derived from the base price, you must expend the material component or pay the XP when brewing the potion. Whoever drinks the potion is the target of the spell.
• Brewing a potion takes at least 8 hours.
• Gold cost for brewing a potion is 1/2 base cost.
• When brewing a potion, a character cannot memorize or learn new spells during that period of time. Neither can it be involved in other strenuous activities such as battle, long conversations or many hampering disturbances. If so, brewing the potion will fail and the gold spent.
• A character may brew an amount of potions equal to intelligence modifier + 1 / 5 ranks in Spellcraft during each month without any XP-loss. A character may not exceed a number of days brewing beyond 10 per month.
• Brewing more potions during a level than above stated limit, adds an XP-loss equal to 1/25 of base cost to all involved party members included brewer not able to continue adventuring.

Craft Wand
Prerequisite: Caster level 5.
Benefit: You can create any wand of any 4th level or lower spell that you know. Any wand that stores a spell with a costly material component or and XP cost also carries a commensurate cost. In addition to the cost derived from the base price, you must expend as many times as total charges in either the material cost or the XP cost.
• Crafting a wand takes 1 day / 1000 gold base cost.
• Gold cost for crafting a wand is 1/2 of base cost.
• A character can create a total of 1 wand per 5 ranks in Craft Wand during one level without any XP cost.
• A newly created wand has 2d20 + Caster Level charges. Maximum 50.
• A character must spend 1 rank in Craft Wand to research a specific wand which cannot be changed later.
• Crafting more wands during a level than above stated limit, adds an XP-loss equal to 1/25 of base cost to all involved party members included crafter not able to continue adventuring.
• When crafting, a character cannot memorize or learn new spells during that period of time. Neither can it be involved in other strenuous activities such as battle, long conversations or many hampering disturbances. If so, crafting will fail and the gold spent.

Craft Rod
Prerequisite: Caster level 9.
Benefit: You can create any rod whose prerequisite you meet. (See the Dungeon Master’s Guide for prerequisites and other information about rods.)
• Crafting a rod takes 1 day / 1000 gold base cost.
• Gold cost for crafting a rod is 1/2 of base cost.
• A character can create a total of 1 rod per 10 ranks in Craft Rod during one level without any XP cost.
• A newly created rod has 2d20 + Caster Level charges. Maximum 50.
• A character must spend 1 rank in Craft Rod to research a specific rod which cannot be changed later.
• Crafting more rods during a level than above stated limit, adds an XP-loss equal to 1/25 of base cost to all involved party members included crafter not able to continue adventuring.
• When crafting, a character cannot memorize or learn new spells during that period of time. Neither can it be involved in other strenuous activities such as battle, long conversations or many hampering disturbances. If so, crafting will fail and the gold spent.

Craft Staff
Prerequisite: Caster level 12.
Benefit: You can create any staff whose prerequisite you meet. (See the Dungeon Master’s Guide for prerequisites and other information about staves.)
• Crafting a staff takes 1 day / 1000 gold base cost.
• Gold cost for crafting a staff is 1/2 of base cost.
• A character can create a total of 1 staff per 10 ranks in Craft Staff during one level without any XP cost.
• A newly created staff has 2d20 + Caster Level charges. Maximum 50.
• A character must spend 1 rank in Craft Staff to research a specific staff which cannot be changed later.
• Crafting more staves during a level than above stated limit, adds an XP-loss equal to 1/25 of base cost to all involved party members included crafter not able to continue adventuring.
• When crafting, a character cannot memorize or learn new spells during that period of time. Neither can it be involved in other strenuous activities such as battle, long conversations or many hampering disturbances. If so, crafting will fail and the gold spent.

Craft Wondrous Item
Prerequisite: Caster level 3.
Benefit: You can create any wondrous item whose prerequisite you meet. (See the Dungeon Master’s Guide for prerequisites and other information about wondrous items.)
• Crafting a wondrous item takes 1 day / 1000 gold base cost.
• Gold cost for crafting a wand is 1/2 of base cost.
• A character can create a total of 1 wondrous item per 10 ranks in Craft Wondrous Item during one level without any XP cost.
• A character must spend 1 rank in Craft Wondrous Item to research a specific wondrous item which cannot be changed later.
• Crafting more wondrous items during a level than above stated limit, adds an XP-loss equal to 1/25 of base cost to all involved party members included crafter not able to continue adventuring.
• When crafting, a character cannot memorize or learn new spells during that period of time. Neither can it be involved in other strenuous activities such as battle, long conversations or many hampering disturbances. If so, crafting will fail and the gold spent.

Craft Magic Arms and Armour
Prerequisite: Caster level 5.
Benefit: You can create any magic weapon, armour, or shield whose prerequisite you meet. (See the Dungeon Master’s Guide for prerequisites and other information about these items.)

• Crafting magic arms and armour takes 1 day / 1000 gold base cost.
• Gold cost for crafting magic arms and armour is 1/2 of base cost.
• A character can create a total of 1 magic arms or armour per 10 ranks in Craft Magic Arms and Armour during one level without any XP cost.
• A character must spend 1 rank in Craft Magic Arms and Armour to research a specific such item which cannot be changed later.
• Crafting more such items during a level than above stated limit, adds an XP-loss equal to 1/25 of base cost to all involved party members included crafter not able to continue adventuring.
• When crafting, a character cannot memorize or learn new spells during that period of time. Neither can it be involved in other strenuous activities such as battle, long conversations or many hampering disturbances. If so, crafting will fail and the gold spent.
Soel Griffin
02-21-06, 03:21 AM Nice little twist on crafting. I, too, hate the concept of xp cost.
Loren Pechtel
02-21-06, 01:33 PM So you're changing them from feats to skills?

It also looks like you pay XP unless you have at least 10 ranks in the relevant item.

I also question the research rules. The problem is that how often do you want to create more than one of a permanent item??
Mentar
02-22-06, 12:56 AM Personally, for most items I prefer the XP cost to the old way of doing it.
1st and 2nd edition required the casting of permanency on most magical items, and that cost the caster 1 con each time. Requiring anyone that wanted to make magical items to have access to the wish spell to restore the con, but the year of crafting and year tagged on for casting wish limited the number of items that could be created in a lifetime.

The main thing I would change is the way scrolls are done, crafting a scroll should be similar to scribing the spell, same cost in materials as putting it in your spell book, no XP cost. With the requirment of a skill check (spellcraft or concentration) and requiring 8 hours of work per page. This might be overpowered, but the material cost of scribing should balance it.

The second thing I would really like to see is GP costs listed as items needed in some book. Scribing of a lightning bolt spell requires ash from a (insert type of tree) struck by lightning, or a magic item requiring blood/bone/other matter from a specific type of creature. This would allow adventuring item crafters to collect the needed parts while on an adventure rather then just bringing back gold, and would balance out some monsters that have no treasure by giving non-cash treasure to those with the skills to harvest the items.
If items stated what kind of materials were needed to craft them, as with poisons, why can't I collect the venom from what my group kills and craft the poison rather then paying in gold for things that I should have made a skill check to collect from the monsters I have killed.

The main problem I see with the method here is that no creator of magical items will want to spend 10 hard earned skill points per craft feat, if the skill requirement was DC 10(15?)+caster level+spell level to have a chance at crafting the item without an XP cost (by increasing the material cost and time required for instance) this could be workable without new skills, just use spellcraft checks.
The first level a character could have 10 ranks in a skill is 7th level, and if you tie the gaining of the skill to the feat (start training the skill when you gain the feat) it is only really useful at high-epic levels when you can have skill ranks of 20 or more. This brings to mind the idea of a wizard using this idea to make rings of three wishes (paying only the XP for the casting of wish) in order to wish for items that would have cost more XP to make, or even to wish for another ring of three wishes on each wish of the original ring. Wishing for a magical item usually costs 2X the normal XP cost in creating it +5000XP for the wish, but using a wish from an item does not carry that cost (if it does I can't find it anywhere).
Lord_Mephisto
02-22-06, 12:47 PM It also looks like you pay XP unless you have at least 10 ranks in the relevant item.

I think you have misunderstood something here. With this system, you need to spend 1 rank in the correct Craft skill for researching how to create a specific item. Once you have mastered it, you can create as many of this item you want. Of course, if you start creating simply too many, the overall xp-penalty enters the equation to prevent exploit.

The need to spend a skill point in researching an item is partially the new way of balancing this ability without an xp cost.

I also question the research rules. The problem is that how often do you want to create more than one of a permanent item??

If you want to create a very specific item which would be good to have only one of for only one creature, then the skill rank requirement can be pretty hefty. But if you choose to not limit yourself only to such items, you can get a lot for one skill rank. Other classes than wizards, bards or multiclass wizard/rogues should not expect to be good crafters anyway.

You would have to weigh versitility against specific power.

Having a wizard in the party who could create any item without some form of limitation would be much to powerful, and thus the initial idea with the xp-cost. But paying in xp reduces the value of the crafting skills almost to nothingness for many campaigns where xp isn't found unattended on the ground. And a party is not really well adviced to have their wizard levels lower than the others.

Post/Author/DateTime	Post
Lord_Mephisto 02-19-06, 10:27 PM	I have always hated the idea of xp-penalties for using crafting skills. But some form of limitation is surely needed. Therefore, I have come up with this system: Crafting Rules 3.5 – Handeland Edition 1.1 Definitions Researching: The work needed to be done before any crafting may be attempted. Crafting for example a magical staff or a magical ring requires the character to know and understand all the magic involved in creating such items. This applies to all crafting of all items. The character needs to spend one skill point on level up to understand a specific item. The character can not chose to research an item which requirements and prerequisites it does not meet. In addition, the DM might enforce special requirements or prerequisites for researching a specific item. Crafting: The work needed to create a fully researched item. Crafting a specific item is not possible before all research to the specific item is finished. This applies to all crafting of all items. The character may decide to craft one specific item which has been researched which requirements and prerequisites it meets. All needed materials and a suitable location for crafting must be available to ensure success. Crafting takes at least 1 day / 1000 gold base cost of the item being crafted. When crafting, a character cannot memorize or learn new spells during that period of time. Neither can it be involved in other strenuous activities such as battle, long conversations or many hampering disturbances. If so, crafting will fail and the gold spent. However, a character need not finish all the crafting work in one single period of time. A character can freely craft an item spending at least one full day of its total crafting time in each crafting interval. When the total crafting time has been successfully spent, the item is finished and the work completed. Scribing: The work needed to scribe a scroll from a known spell of any level. All needed materials and a suitable location for scribing must be available to ensure success. When scribing a scroll, a character cannot memorize or learn new spells during that period of time. Neither can it be involved in other strenuous activities such as battle, long conversations or many hampering disturbances. If so, scribing the scroll will fail and the gold spent. The DM may enforce restrictions regarding suitable locations for scribing. Scribing one scroll takes at least 8 hours / 1000 gold base cost and a minimum of 8 hours. Brewing: The work needed to brew a potion from a known spell of 3rd level or lower. All needed materials and a suitable location for brewing must be available to ensure success. When brewing a potion, a character cannot memorize or learn new spells during that period of time. Neither can it be involved in other strenuous activities such as battle, long conversations or many hampering disturbances. If so, brewing the potion will fail and the gold spent. The DM may enforce restrictions regarding suitable locations for brewing. Brewing one potion takes at least 8 hours. Scribe Scroll Prerequisite: Caster level 1. Benefit: You can create a scroll of any spell that you know. Any scroll that stores a spell with a costly material component or an XP cost also carries a commensurate cost. In addition to the costs derived from the base price, you must expend the material component or pay the XP when scribing the scroll. • Scribing a scroll takes at least 8 hours / 1000 gold base cost. • Gold cost for scribing scrolls is 1/2 base cost. • When scribing a scroll, a character cannot memorize or learn new spells during that period of time. Neither can it be involved in other strenuous activities such as battle, long conversations or many hampering disturbances. If so, scribing the scroll will fail and the gold spent. • A character may scribe an amount of scrolls equal to intelligence modifier + 1 / 5 ranks in Spellcraft during each month without any XP-loss. A character may not exceed a number of total spell levels beyond 17 or beyond a total of 10 days per month. • Scribing more scrolls during a level than above stated limit, adds an XP-loss equal to 1/25 of base cost to all involved party members included scriber not able to continue adventuring. Brew Potion Prerequisite: Caster level 1. Benefit: You can create a potion of any 3rd level or lower spell that you know and that targets one or more creatures. Any potion that stores a spell with a costly material component or an XP cost also carries a commensurate cost. In addition to the costs derived from the base price, you must expend the material component or pay the XP when brewing the potion. Whoever drinks the potion is the target of the spell. • Brewing a potion takes at least 8 hours. • Gold cost for brewing a potion is 1/2 base cost. • When brewing a potion, a character cannot memorize or learn new spells during that period of time. Neither can it be involved in other strenuous activities such as battle, long conversations or many hampering disturbances. If so, brewing the potion will fail and the gold spent. • A character may brew an amount of potions equal to intelligence modifier + 1 / 5 ranks in Spellcraft during each month without any XP-loss. A character may not exceed a number of days brewing beyond 10 per month. • Brewing more potions during a level than above stated limit, adds an XP-loss equal to 1/25 of base cost to all involved party members included brewer not able to continue adventuring. Craft Wand Prerequisite: Caster level 5. Benefit: You can create any wand of any 4th level or lower spell that you know. Any wand that stores a spell with a costly material component or and XP cost also carries a commensurate cost. In addition to the cost derived from the base price, you must expend as many times as total charges in either the material cost or the XP cost. • Crafting a wand takes 1 day / 1000 gold base cost. • Gold cost for crafting a wand is 1/2 of base cost. • A character can create a total of 1 wand per 5 ranks in Craft Wand during one level without any XP cost. • A newly created wand has 2d20 + Caster Level charges. Maximum 50. • A character must spend 1 rank in Craft Wand to research a specific wand which cannot be changed later. • Crafting more wands during a level than above stated limit, adds an XP-loss equal to 1/25 of base cost to all involved party members included crafter not able to continue adventuring. • When crafting, a character cannot memorize or learn new spells during that period of time. Neither can it be involved in other strenuous activities such as battle, long conversations or many hampering disturbances. If so, crafting will fail and the gold spent. Craft Rod Prerequisite: Caster level 9. Benefit: You can create any rod whose prerequisite you meet. (See the Dungeon Master’s Guide for prerequisites and other information about rods.) • Crafting a rod takes 1 day / 1000 gold base cost. • Gold cost for crafting a rod is 1/2 of base cost. • A character can create a total of 1 rod per 10 ranks in Craft Rod during one level without any XP cost. • A newly created rod has 2d20 + Caster Level charges. Maximum 50. • A character must spend 1 rank in Craft Rod to research a specific rod which cannot be changed later. • Crafting more rods during a level than above stated limit, adds an XP-loss equal to 1/25 of base cost to all involved party members included crafter not able to continue adventuring. • When crafting, a character cannot memorize or learn new spells during that period of time. Neither can it be involved in other strenuous activities such as battle, long conversations or many hampering disturbances. If so, crafting will fail and the gold spent. Craft Staff Prerequisite: Caster level 12. Benefit: You can create any staff whose prerequisite you meet. (See the Dungeon Master’s Guide for prerequisites and other information about staves.) • Crafting a staff takes 1 day / 1000 gold base cost. • Gold cost for crafting a staff is 1/2 of base cost. • A character can create a total of 1 staff per 10 ranks in Craft Staff during one level without any XP cost. • A newly created staff has 2d20 + Caster Level charges. Maximum 50. • A character must spend 1 rank in Craft Staff to research a specific staff which cannot be changed later. • Crafting more staves during a level than above stated limit, adds an XP-loss equal to 1/25 of base cost to all involved party members included crafter not able to continue adventuring. • When crafting, a character cannot memorize or learn new spells during that period of time. Neither can it be involved in other strenuous activities such as battle, long conversations or many hampering disturbances. If so, crafting will fail and the gold spent. Craft Wondrous Item Prerequisite: Caster level 3. Benefit: You can create any wondrous item whose prerequisite you meet. (See the Dungeon Master’s Guide for prerequisites and other information about wondrous items.) • Crafting a wondrous item takes 1 day / 1000 gold base cost. • Gold cost for crafting a wand is 1/2 of base cost. • A character can create a total of 1 wondrous item per 10 ranks in Craft Wondrous Item during one level without any XP cost. • A character must spend 1 rank in Craft Wondrous Item to research a specific wondrous item which cannot be changed later. • Crafting more wondrous items during a level than above stated limit, adds an XP-loss equal to 1/25 of base cost to all involved party members included crafter not able to continue adventuring. • When crafting, a character cannot memorize or learn new spells during that period of time. Neither can it be involved in other strenuous activities such as battle, long conversations or many hampering disturbances. If so, crafting will fail and the gold spent. Craft Magic Arms and Armour Prerequisite: Caster level 5. Benefit: You can create any magic weapon, armour, or shield whose prerequisite you meet. (See the Dungeon Master’s Guide for prerequisites and other information about these items.) • Crafting magic arms and armour takes 1 day / 1000 gold base cost. • Gold cost for crafting magic arms and armour is 1/2 of base cost. • A character can create a total of 1 magic arms or armour per 10 ranks in Craft Magic Arms and Armour during one level without any XP cost. • A character must spend 1 rank in Craft Magic Arms and Armour to research a specific such item which cannot be changed later. • Crafting more such items during a level than above stated limit, adds an XP-loss equal to 1/25 of base cost to all involved party members included crafter not able to continue adventuring. • When crafting, a character cannot memorize or learn new spells during that period of time. Neither can it be involved in other strenuous activities such as battle, long conversations or many hampering disturbances. If so, crafting will fail and the gold spent.
Soel Griffin 02-21-06, 03:21 AM	Nice little twist on crafting. I, too, hate the concept of xp cost.
Loren Pechtel 02-21-06, 01:33 PM	So you're changing them from feats to skills? It also looks like you pay XP unless you have at least 10 ranks in the relevant item. I also question the research rules. The problem is that how often do you want to create more than one of a permanent item??
Mentar 02-22-06, 12:56 AM	Personally, for most items I prefer the XP cost to the old way of doing it. 1st and 2nd edition required the casting of permanency on most magical items, and that cost the caster 1 con each time. Requiring anyone that wanted to make magical items to have access to the wish spell to restore the con, but the year of crafting and year tagged on for casting wish limited the number of items that could be created in a lifetime. The main thing I would change is the way scrolls are done, crafting a scroll should be similar to scribing the spell, same cost in materials as putting it in your spell book, no XP cost. With the requirment of a skill check (spellcraft or concentration) and requiring 8 hours of work per page. This might be overpowered, but the material cost of scribing should balance it. The second thing I would really like to see is GP costs listed as items needed in some book. Scribing of a lightning bolt spell requires ash from a (insert type of tree) struck by lightning, or a magic item requiring blood/bone/other matter from a specific type of creature. This would allow adventuring item crafters to collect the needed parts while on an adventure rather then just bringing back gold, and would balance out some monsters that have no treasure by giving non-cash treasure to those with the skills to harvest the items. If items stated what kind of materials were needed to craft them, as with poisons, why can't I collect the venom from what my group kills and craft the poison rather then paying in gold for things that I should have made a skill check to collect from the monsters I have killed. The main problem I see with the method here is that no creator of magical items will want to spend 10 hard earned skill points per craft feat, if the skill requirement was DC 10(15?)+caster level+spell level to have a chance at crafting the item without an XP cost (by increasing the material cost and time required for instance) this could be workable without new skills, just use spellcraft checks. The first level a character could have 10 ranks in a skill is 7th level, and if you tie the gaining of the skill to the feat (start training the skill when you gain the feat) it is only really useful at high-epic levels when you can have skill ranks of 20 or more. This brings to mind the idea of a wizard using this idea to make rings of three wishes (paying only the XP for the casting of wish) in order to wish for items that would have cost more XP to make, or even to wish for another ring of three wishes on each wish of the original ring. Wishing for a magical item usually costs 2X the normal XP cost in creating it +5000XP for the wish, but using a wish from an item does not carry that cost (if it does I can't find it anywhere).
Lord_Mephisto 02-22-06, 12:47 PM	It also looks like you pay XP unless you have at least 10 ranks in the relevant item. I think you have misunderstood something here. With this system, you need to spend 1 rank in the correct Craft skill for researching how to create a specific item. Once you have mastered it, you can create as many of this item you want. Of course, if you start creating simply too many, the overall xp-penalty enters the equation to prevent exploit. The need to spend a skill point in researching an item is partially the new way of balancing this ability without an xp cost. I also question the research rules. The problem is that how often do you want to create more than one of a permanent item?? If you want to create a very specific item which would be good to have only one of for only one creature, then the skill rank requirement can be pretty hefty. But if you choose to not limit yourself only to such items, you can get a lot for one skill rank. Other classes than wizards, bards or multiclass wizard/rogues should not expect to be good crafters anyway. You would have to weigh versitility against specific power. Having a wizard in the party who could create any item without some form of limitation would be much to powerful, and thus the initial idea with the xp-cost. But paying in xp reduces the value of the crafting skills almost to nothingness for many campaigns where xp isn't found unattended on the ground. And a party is not really well adviced to have their wizard levels lower than the others.