A New Multiclassing system, adressing the loss power [Archive] - Wizards Community

A New Multiclassing system, adressing the loss power [Archive] - Wizards Community

Post/Author/DateTime Post
Ismaul
02-05-05, 01:48 AM Those new multiclassing rules are the result of a discussion about Szatany's Ultimate Adventurer, which you can see here (http://boards1.wizards.com/showthread.php?t=368537). They try to adress the loss of power encountered in multiclassed characters, and replace the increasing number of prestige classes released by WotC dedicated to make multiclassing a viable choice, like the Mystic Theurge. This system is experimental at the moment, and there is some aspects I'm not sure about. I guess the important thing would be that characters multiclassed this way are not better than non-multiclassed characters. If you find any balance problem, please let me know.

New Multiclassing Rules
Characters will sometimes evolve working on more than one set of skills simultaneously, compared to others that work one part of their skills at one time and others at another time. When a character separates the learning process for some reason, use the standard multiclassing rules found in the PHB. When this character develops two or three classes at the same time, class features are determined as shown below. Anytime he wishes, a character can stop multiclassing or change the classes he multiclasses in, passing again by the process of determining class features. A character multiclassing with these rules is still subject to alignment and multiclassing restrictions, and multiclassing penalities.

Weapon and Armor Proficiency: A multiclassed character gains his classes' weapons and armor proficiencies at the rate of one class' weapons and armor proficiencies per multiclassed level.

Hit Die: The character's HD is equal to the sum of all his classes' HD divided by the number of classes, rounded normally. If the result is an odd number, the character's HD is the result -1, and he gains +1 HP at every odd level. For example, if a character multiclass between a rogue and a ranger (result of 7), he has a d6 HD and gains +1 HP at every odd level.

Class Skills: A multiclassed character gains his classes' class skills at the rate of one class' class skills per multiclassed level.

Skill Points: The number of skill points per level is equal to the sum of skill points from his classes divided by the number of classes, rounded normally. At 1st level, a multiclassed character gains 4 times that amount, as usual.

Base Attack Bonus: To determine the multiclassed character’s BAB, use the table below.
BAB of 2 Classes Character’s BAB
All the same Stays the same
One poor, one medium Poor*
One poor, one good Medium
One medium, one good Medium*

BAB of 3 Classes Character’s BAB
All the same Stays the same
All different Medium
Two poor, one medium Poor*
Two poor, one good Medium
Two medium, one poor Medium
Two medium, one good Medium*
Two good, one poor Medium*
Two good, one medium Good

*this character gains +1 to BAB every 8 levels,
starting at the first multiclassed level
Saving Throws: To determine the multiclassed character’s saving throws, use the table below. Resolve each saving throw separately.
Save of 2 Classes Character’s Save
All the same Stays the same
One weak, one good Weak*

Save of 3 Classes Character’s Save
All the same Stays the same
Two weak, one good Weak*
Two good, one weak Good

*this character gains +1 to this save every 9 levels,
starting at the first multiclassed level
Spellcasting: If at least two of the multiclassed character's classes have the ability to cast spells, this character develops a certain synergy between the classes. After 7 levels of multiclassing with a particular spellcasting class and every 8 levels of multiclassing thereafter, he is treated as one additionnal level higher for the purpose of determining spells per day, spells known and caster level for this class.

Special Abilities: A multiclassed character gains classes' special abilities, including spellcasting, at the rate showed on the table below. Each time he gains the special abilities of a class, he is considered as having gained a level in that class. If he changes multiclassed classes at some point, he starts anew the progression shown below.

Two Classes Multiclassing
Level Special Abilities
1st 1st class
2nd 2nd class
3rd Both classes
4th+ repeat

Three Classes Multiclassing
Level Special Abilities
1st One class
2nd Both other classes
3rd+ repeat

Thoughts, commentaries, flames? Throw away ;)
Crashy75
02-08-05, 10:04 PM I'm the first to promote Szatany's stuff, but i have a simpler idea. Feats. They offer so many possibilities.... lets say u want a psychic barbarian.
Psychic Rage
You can use your inner rage to strengthen your powers.
Bonus: You can lose one of your rages per day as a free action to +2 to the DC of a psionic power and +4 to your checks to penetrate power resistance. This counts as your rage for the encounter and you are fatigued as normal.
Xeviat-DM
02-09-05, 08:05 PM Crashy, no wonder I don't mind having you haunting my threads (in fact, I appreciate that you do); you feel the same way I do about feats.

Ismaul, without promoting my own magic system, one of the largest flaws in the D&D magic system (one of the things that makes multiclassing the hardest) is that caster levels need to be near equal to character level or they are nearly worthless. If a player is careful to not drop their caster level below half their character level, they tend to be okay as a suport caster, but they fall behind in other areas. UA's prestige versions of the hybrid classes is a great way to help balance this issue. I believe someone on the Psionics board even presents a Psychic Warrior PrC version.

If you were to use those PrCs, and a few other half-caster style PrCs (such as mystic theurge and that rogue one that I cannot remember the name of for one reason or another ...), and encourage players to take those routs if they wish to multiclass as a spellcaster, you will find that multiclass characters are great, if not better than straight classers.

The high level class abilities of classes award characters for remaining single classed. If you're worried about BAB and saves giving you issues, use fractional base attack and save bonuses (and only apply a high save's additional +2 to an ability score once so multiclassers don't have stupidly high saves).

If you feel that you want more class synergies, create feats for them as Crashy has suggested. These sort of things, when done creatively, can add levels of wonder to your games.

Above all else, work with your players on their characters. Don't feel opposed to creating new feats if they want an ability that seems appropriate for a feat (something that someone could learn on their own or be taught), and if they want something that you feel should be a class ability, don't shy away from creating a PrC for them. I am against the creation and use of non-setting specific core classes, but if you need something core for your setting that isn't offered by the core rules, make it; just try to remain consistant, for your player's sakes.
ardalor
10-25-05, 10:42 PM I believe the main issue with the multiclassing rules as written is that the single-classed characters are rewarded so greatly as to punish the multiclassed ones--which isn't the way it ought to be.

What this rule does is even the playing field a bit. It's stronger than the existing multiclass rules, but it's surprisingly well-balanced with the existing core classes. The Cleric/Wizard that takes ten levels in each is out five levels each as compared to the Mystic Theurge; the Cleric/Wizard that uses these multiclass rules ends up with thirteen levels each (effectively)--only two levels behind the MT progression. These rules remove the need for the two-class combo PrCs by making the character a combo in and of itself. For a character who works on his divine and arcane casting at the same time, it doesn't make sense to, every level, choose what class to advance in. It makes more sense to say "I am a person who casts both divine and arcane spells, with equal skill in each" than to say "I am a wizard...no! I'm a cleric! No! I'm a wizard! No! I'm a..."

I think this makes a lot more sense. Sure, you can work with your players to help them create a character that's playable. But the system shouldn't be a barrier that needs to be overcome. The player should be able to say, "I want to play a character that's a cross between a fighter and a rogue", and be able to do that without worrying about his own survival.

Sure, feats are great, but you only get so many of them. Prestige Classes are great, but not everyone is looking for a prestige class. New base classes are always nice, but when there's a better solution, why not use it?
weasel fierce
10-26-05, 12:56 AM Without commenting on the specifics at hand, be carefull that you dont overbalance too much in the other direction, making single classed character unsatisfactory or pointless.

Not saying you have, just a cautionary warning :)
KGodwin
10-26-05, 01:22 AM Personally, I do not think it is really a issue...
Just use the 'magic rating' variant from unearthed arcana (raises caster levels from 'other' classes in the set).

The problem with your system is it would encourage someone to play a fighter/ranger/barbarian just for the abilities.

HD is the same as fighter - d10
Same BAB as fighter
Get the same Fortitude saves a fighter
Get slightly better Reflex saves as a fighter
+ Barbarian Abilities + Ranger Abilities

Yes...you get bonus feats at half the rate. But with all the abilities Rangers and Barb's get it more than counterbalances that.

Over a 20 level progression...
You lose 5 fighter feats.

You gain
DR 2/-
Trap Sense +3
Improved Uncanny Dodge
Rage 3/day
3 Favored Enemies
Track (Feat)
Wild Empathy
Endurance (Feat)
Animal Companion
Combat Style (Feat)
Improved Combat Style (Feat)
Woodland Stride
Swift Tracker
Evasion
and a couple low level ranger spells for self healing between combats.

So thats 4 feats, which means for the price of 1 feat (and slightly less flexibility in feat choices for those 4) you get:
DR 2/-
Trap Sense +3
Improved Uncanny Dodge
Rage 3/day
3 Favored Enemies
Slightly better reflex saves
Wild Empathy
Animal Companion
Woodland Stride
Swift Tracker
Evasion
and a couple low level ranger spells for self healing between combats.

But like everything else in 3.5...

As long as it is applied equally, no matter how imbalanced the rule it balances out.

I just think this will kill single-classing non-magicala characters because you lose 1/2 your caster level for a ton of bonus abilities.

Post/Author/DateTime	Post
Ismaul 02-05-05, 01:48 AM	Those new multiclassing rules are the result of a discussion about Szatany's Ultimate Adventurer, which you can see here (http://boards1.wizards.com/showthread.php?t=368537). They try to adress the loss of power encountered in multiclassed characters, and replace the increasing number of prestige classes released by WotC dedicated to make multiclassing a viable choice, like the Mystic Theurge. This system is experimental at the moment, and there is some aspects I'm not sure about. I guess the important thing would be that characters multiclassed this way are not better than non-multiclassed characters. If you find any balance problem, please let me know. New Multiclassing Rules Characters will sometimes evolve working on more than one set of skills simultaneously, compared to others that work one part of their skills at one time and others at another time. When a character separates the learning process for some reason, use the standard multiclassing rules found in the PHB. When this character develops two or three classes at the same time, class features are determined as shown below. Anytime he wishes, a character can stop multiclassing or change the classes he multiclasses in, passing again by the process of determining class features. A character multiclassing with these rules is still subject to alignment and multiclassing restrictions, and multiclassing penalities. Weapon and Armor Proficiency: A multiclassed character gains his classes' weapons and armor proficiencies at the rate of one class' weapons and armor proficiencies per multiclassed level. Hit Die: The character's HD is equal to the sum of all his classes' HD divided by the number of classes, rounded normally. If the result is an odd number, the character's HD is the result -1, and he gains +1 HP at every odd level. For example, if a character multiclass between a rogue and a ranger (result of 7), he has a d6 HD and gains +1 HP at every odd level. Class Skills: A multiclassed character gains his classes' class skills at the rate of one class' class skills per multiclassed level. Skill Points: The number of skill points per level is equal to the sum of skill points from his classes divided by the number of classes, rounded normally. At 1st level, a multiclassed character gains 4 times that amount, as usual. Base Attack Bonus: To determine the multiclassed character’s BAB, use the table below. BAB of 2 Classes Character’s BAB All the same Stays the same One poor, one medium Poor* One poor, one good Medium One medium, one good Medium* BAB of 3 Classes Character’s BAB All the same Stays the same All different Medium Two poor, one medium Poor* Two poor, one good Medium Two medium, one poor Medium Two medium, one good Medium* Two good, one poor Medium* Two good, one medium Good this character gains +1 to BAB every 8 levels, starting at the first multiclassed level Saving Throws: To determine the multiclassed character’s saving throws, use the table below. Resolve each saving throw separately. Save of 2 Classes Character’s Save All the same Stays the same One weak, one good Weak Save of 3 Classes Character’s Save All the same Stays the same Two weak, one good Weak* Two good, one weak Good *this character gains +1 to this save every 9 levels, starting at the first multiclassed level Spellcasting: If at least two of the multiclassed character's classes have the ability to cast spells, this character develops a certain synergy between the classes. After 7 levels of multiclassing with a particular spellcasting class and every 8 levels of multiclassing thereafter, he is treated as one additionnal level higher for the purpose of determining spells per day, spells known and caster level for this class. Special Abilities: A multiclassed character gains classes' special abilities, including spellcasting, at the rate showed on the table below. Each time he gains the special abilities of a class, he is considered as having gained a level in that class. If he changes multiclassed classes at some point, he starts anew the progression shown below. Two Classes Multiclassing Level Special Abilities 1st 1st class 2nd 2nd class 3rd Both classes 4th+ repeat Three Classes Multiclassing Level Special Abilities 1st One class 2nd Both other classes 3rd+ repeat Thoughts, commentaries, flames? Throw away ;)
Crashy75 02-08-05, 10:04 PM	I'm the first to promote Szatany's stuff, but i have a simpler idea. Feats. They offer so many possibilities.... lets say u want a psychic barbarian. Psychic Rage You can use your inner rage to strengthen your powers. Bonus: You can lose one of your rages per day as a free action to +2 to the DC of a psionic power and +4 to your checks to penetrate power resistance. This counts as your rage for the encounter and you are fatigued as normal.
Xeviat-DM 02-09-05, 08:05 PM	Crashy, no wonder I don't mind having you haunting my threads (in fact, I appreciate that you do); you feel the same way I do about feats. Ismaul, without promoting my own magic system, one of the largest flaws in the D&D magic system (one of the things that makes multiclassing the hardest) is that caster levels need to be near equal to character level or they are nearly worthless. If a player is careful to not drop their caster level below half their character level, they tend to be okay as a suport caster, but they fall behind in other areas. UA's prestige versions of the hybrid classes is a great way to help balance this issue. I believe someone on the Psionics board even presents a Psychic Warrior PrC version. If you were to use those PrCs, and a few other half-caster style PrCs (such as mystic theurge and that rogue one that I cannot remember the name of for one reason or another ...), and encourage players to take those routs if they wish to multiclass as a spellcaster, you will find that multiclass characters are great, if not better than straight classers. The high level class abilities of classes award characters for remaining single classed. If you're worried about BAB and saves giving you issues, use fractional base attack and save bonuses (and only apply a high save's additional +2 to an ability score once so multiclassers don't have stupidly high saves). If you feel that you want more class synergies, create feats for them as Crashy has suggested. These sort of things, when done creatively, can add levels of wonder to your games. Above all else, work with your players on their characters. Don't feel opposed to creating new feats if they want an ability that seems appropriate for a feat (something that someone could learn on their own or be taught), and if they want something that you feel should be a class ability, don't shy away from creating a PrC for them. I am against the creation and use of non-setting specific core classes, but if you need something core for your setting that isn't offered by the core rules, make it; just try to remain consistant, for your player's sakes.
ardalor 10-25-05, 10:42 PM	I believe the main issue with the multiclassing rules as written is that the single-classed characters are rewarded so greatly as to punish the multiclassed ones--which isn't the way it ought to be. What this rule does is even the playing field a bit. It's stronger than the existing multiclass rules, but it's surprisingly well-balanced with the existing core classes. The Cleric/Wizard that takes ten levels in each is out five levels each as compared to the Mystic Theurge; the Cleric/Wizard that uses these multiclass rules ends up with thirteen levels each (effectively)--only two levels behind the MT progression. These rules remove the need for the two-class combo PrCs by making the character a combo in and of itself. For a character who works on his divine and arcane casting at the same time, it doesn't make sense to, every level, choose what class to advance in. It makes more sense to say "I am a person who casts both divine and arcane spells, with equal skill in each" than to say "I am a wizard...no! I'm a cleric! No! I'm a wizard! No! I'm a..." I think this makes a lot more sense. Sure, you can work with your players to help them create a character that's playable. But the system shouldn't be a barrier that needs to be overcome. The player should be able to say, "I want to play a character that's a cross between a fighter and a rogue", and be able to do that without worrying about his own survival. Sure, feats are great, but you only get so many of them. Prestige Classes are great, but not everyone is looking for a prestige class. New base classes are always nice, but when there's a better solution, why not use it?
weasel fierce 10-26-05, 12:56 AM	Without commenting on the specifics at hand, be carefull that you dont overbalance too much in the other direction, making single classed character unsatisfactory or pointless. Not saying you have, just a cautionary warning :)
KGodwin 10-26-05, 01:22 AM	Personally, I do not think it is really a issue... Just use the 'magic rating' variant from unearthed arcana (raises caster levels from 'other' classes in the set). The problem with your system is it would encourage someone to play a fighter/ranger/barbarian just for the abilities. HD is the same as fighter - d10 Same BAB as fighter Get the same Fortitude saves a fighter Get slightly better Reflex saves as a fighter + Barbarian Abilities + Ranger Abilities Yes...you get bonus feats at half the rate. But with all the abilities Rangers and Barb's get it more than counterbalances that. Over a 20 level progression... You lose 5 fighter feats. You gain DR 2/- Trap Sense +3 Improved Uncanny Dodge Rage 3/day 3 Favored Enemies Track (Feat) Wild Empathy Endurance (Feat) Animal Companion Combat Style (Feat) Improved Combat Style (Feat) Woodland Stride Swift Tracker Evasion and a couple low level ranger spells for self healing between combats. So thats 4 feats, which means for the price of 1 feat (and slightly less flexibility in feat choices for those 4) you get: DR 2/- Trap Sense +3 Improved Uncanny Dodge Rage 3/day 3 Favored Enemies Slightly better reflex saves Wild Empathy Animal Companion Woodland Stride Swift Tracker Evasion and a couple low level ranger spells for self healing between combats. But like everything else in 3.5... As long as it is applied equally, no matter how imbalanced the rule it balances out. I just think this will kill single-classing non-magicala characters because you lose 1/2 your caster level for a ton of bonus abilities.