A new way of interpretation HP... VHPIS [Archive] - Wizards Community

A new way of interpretation HP... VHPIS [Archive] - Wizards Community

Post/Author/DateTime Post
Voldar_Mecorthio
01-05-07, 10:09 PM I don't really like the way hit points work in D&D. A perfectly aimed greataxe to the head will kill anyone, be the target a 1st level commoner or a 200th level barbarian, an axe to the skull will kill you. However, at high and epic levels, the average meleer can survive quite a few perfectly aimed greataxes to the head. I don't like that. So I created Voldar's Hit Point Interpretation System.

In VHPIS, 90% of hit points are changed into Evasion Points (EP), which represent you dodging, parrying, or otherwise preventing yourself from being hit. The attack was aimed fine, but your skill prevented it from making contact. The loss of EP reprosent you getting tired, sore, or otherwise unable to parry, dodge, or otherwise avoid getting hit. For every ten points of damage recieved, nine are deducted from EP and one is deducted from HP. (Even if you can parry a blow, if that blow is strong enough you might nick your arm in a parry or have a glancing blow) If EP are completely depleted, you are completely unable to effectivly evade blows and all damage is taken against HP.

Do you like it?
Krusk
01-05-07, 10:32 PM Im not too big a fan of that 10 9 to ep 1 to hp thing. mostly because 99% of attacks do 11 damage, or 9 damage. And thats a lot of math involved.

Maybe say that HP damage heals at a rate of 1 per day, but is otherwise treat everything the same.

or something like for save vs 10+ammount of HP damage each round to stay conscious.

so that once your ep wears down you finally start to get hit.

could also include a parry skill.

Parry (Dex or Str, player choice) - opposed checks are made. if the attacker wins by

Attacker wins by - Result
5 10% chance to ignore EP
10 20% chance to ignore EP
Ect

defender wins by- result
5 attacker looses 2 AC
10 Attacker looses 4 AC
ect

possibly some way to make opponents flat footed.
Tequila_Sunrise
01-05-07, 10:50 PM How do you deal with things like swords of wounding? So the sword doesn't do enough damage to actually draw blood according to your system, so how does it drain Con?
Kintara
01-06-07, 01:54 AM I'm not sure I "get it." Why not just assume that HP works like "EP," until the character reaches 0 HP or below? It seems like all that's needed is just a reinterpretation, like you say in the title, rather than a mechanical change.I view HP precisely like that already. This extra mechanical stuff seems to be unnecessary.
enlightened
01-06-07, 01:55 AM As a DM, I always describe how effective a blow was not by the total of the damage roll but rather by the percent of total HPs lost (based off of their full HP total, not their current HP total).

If a first level fighter with 10 HPs gets hit with an battleaxe for 8 points of damage (in other words 80% of his total HPs), I would describe it as a very brutal blow. "The blade of the axe slams into the left side of your helmet, violently whipping your neck to the side and blood gushes out of your ear."

However, if a tenth level fighter with 70 HPs gets hit with an axe for the same 8 points of damage (in other words about 11% of his total HPs), I would describe it as a glancing blow. "The orc's axe blade whizzes toward your head but you twist at the last moment and take the brunt of the blow on your shoulder protectors. That's gonna leave a deep bruise."

So, for description purposes, the damage total is less important than the percentage of total HP lost.

EDIT: So, even if a 200th level barbarian gets hit with a max damage critical from a 18 STR orc wielding a greataxe (48 points of damage compared with his 2000 HPs is only a loss of 2.5%) it should be described as only a glancing blow. (Actually his damage resistance would negate it completely but....you get the idea)

Basically, after PCs get a certain amount of hit points, unless you tie them down and coup de grace them, you just can't even hit them squarely and cleanly in the head.
Ra-Tiel
01-06-07, 08:18 AM [...] Basically, after PCs get a certain amount of hit points, unless you tie them down and coup de grace them, you just can't even hit them squarely and cleanly in the head.
And even that becomes tendius at best. Ever had an evil thaumaturge try to sacrifice the king's son (a low level paladin) with his mighty 1d4-1 dagger? Against the paladin's Fort save of perhaps +10 or +12, and his 50 something HPs?

BBEG: *slit* DIE PALADIN HARHARHAR...
Paladin: No.
BBEG: :uh-huh: Wh... What?
Paladin: You did too little damage and I made my Fort save.
BBEG: :doh: Ok... *slit stab slit*
Paladin: Still not enough. See, the Fort save DC is only 14 or 16 for me, I'll make that in around 70% of all cases.
BBEG: :tantrum: DAMNIT! *stab stab stab slit* Will you already die!?! :mad:
Paladin: Nope.
BBEG: :banghead:
...

@OP: Have you already considered Vitality and Wound Points (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/variant/adventuring/vitalityAndWoundPoints.htm)?
Voldar_Mecorthio
01-06-07, 04:04 PM For your coup de grace effect, I rule that it's insta kill 100% of the time. No save. If you're helpless and your enemies are attacking you, you WILL die. They just slit your throat, hack off your head, cave in your skull, or otherwise fatally injure you. There's no concievable way anyone could survive that, even a 40th level paladin with a charisma of 60 and a constitution of 40.
Voldar_Mecorthio
01-06-07, 04:06 PM That vitality/wound point system is very similar, and I like the idea. I don't have a campaign going right now, but once I start one I'll let the players pick between V/W and VHPIS.
Ra-Tiel
01-06-07, 05:10 PM For your coup de grace effect, I rule that it's insta kill 100% of the time. No save. If you're helpless and your enemies are attacking you, you WILL die. They just slit your throat, hack off your head, cave in your skull, or otherwise fatally injure you. There's no concievable way anyone could survive that, even a 40th level paladin with a charisma of 60 and a constitution of 40.
It's your game, and I don't want to interfere with your style of DMing, but that's a tad harsh imho. Considering that there are many effects that can reduce a character to "helpless" (basically any poison that deals ability damage other than Con, hold X spells, shivering touch, ego whip, ...) and that your AC drops by 5 (for being treated as having Dex 0) it seems that not even allowing a save is over the top.

I mean, the same reasoning could be applied to fireballs and lightning bolds, couldn't it?

And my example was just an exaggerated pun on the clonky rules regarding that area of combat. ;)

That vitality/wound point system is very similar, and I like the idea. I don't have a campaign going right now, but once I start one I'll let the players pick between V/W and VHPIS.
It's just that I personally find VP/WP being easier and more clear than your variant. *shrug* Whatever floats your boat. :D
Voldar_Mecorthio
01-07-07, 07:08 PM That's why I'm giving players a choice. If they like mine better, we'll use mine. If they don't want either, we'll use normal HP. If they like V/W we'll use that. I am strongly in favor of letting the players choose between varient systems.
Behaigo
01-07-07, 08:18 PM This is somewhat similar to this (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/variant/adventuring/vitalityAndWoundPoints.htm). I recommend using it.
Thelon Fairblade
01-09-07, 02:13 PM Another idea is to instad shift compeltely away from HP and use sometihng like the Toughness Save implemented in Mutants and Masterminds. Your average Axe blow is a DC3 attack. Your average Thug type has a Toughness save bonus of +3. the base DC of any toughness save is 15; make it = no effect, fail by 5 = bruised/wounded, fail by 10 = stunned and bruised/wounded, fail by 15 = KO'd/disabled. so average Thug usually gets bruised by each attack, which imposes a -1 to all his actions each time. But on a bad save (a 3 or less) ... the axe goes through his skull, dead.

NEcromancer stabbing king's son... dagger is DC +2, helpless target = critical hit = +5 bonus. Necromancer uses Extra Effort to "power attack", -5 to hit, +5 DC. King's Son is a rowdy fighter type with Toughness +6. Save DC is 15+2+5+5 = 27, and king's son has 1d20+6 to make the save... on average, he's dead. a good roll will result in just bruising.

Of course, in D&D the necromancer should also be doing a critical hit (6 pts), and could use GM fiat to Power Attack, or Sneak Attack, or Fell Strike, or something. Perhaps a level of ranger for "favored Enemy: anything on my scrificial altar"... :-)
starfire311
01-09-07, 04:20 PM NEcromancer stabbing king's son... dagger is DC +2, helpless target = critical hit = +5 bonus. Necromancer uses Extra Effort to "power attack", -5 to hit, +5 DC. King's Son is a rowdy fighter type with Toughness +6. Save DC is 15+2+5+5 = 27, and king's son has 1d20+6 to make the save... on average, he's dead. a good roll will result in just bruising.

I loved the toughness mechanic at 1st, but after playing with it for awhile I ahev begun to dislike it, and anyway in your example on average he would get a 16.5 and fail by 10.5 be wounded, need to fail by 15 to die, actually there is only a 30% chance that the necromancer suceeds on his 1st try.
Egarb
01-10-07, 11:01 AM HP already represents this if you think about it in the right way, its Hit points not Health points. I always thought of HP as a measure of how much combat you could take due to your experience, not all of it actually "Being to withstand being shot in the face" . A first level person gets hit with an axe and takes 11 damage, he dies. A fifth level person would live, why? He dodged and took only a grazing wound. Still 11 damage, but that 11 damage means somthing different to the fifth level person.
starfire311
01-10-07, 12:56 PM HP already represents this if you think about it in the right way, its Hit points not Health points. I always thought of HP as a measure of how much combat you could take due to your experience, not all of it actually "Being to withstand being shot in the face" . A first level person gets hit with an axe and takes 11 damage, he dies. A fifth level person would live, why? He dodged and took only a grazing wound. Still 11 damage, but that 11 damage means somthing different to the fifth level person.

unfortunatly this does not hold water, when dealing with falling damage, or submersion in acid or lava damage.
Kursk
01-10-07, 03:44 PM Mechanically how does this change a/g. I have 100 HP or whatever, I take 90 dmg, I still have 10 hp or whatever. So what's the diff?
Voldar_Mecorthio
01-11-07, 02:01 PM Mechanically how does this change a/g. I have 100 HP or whatever, I take 90 dmg, I still have 10 hp or whatever. So what's the diff?
It's mostly a flavor thing.
Kintara
01-12-07, 03:28 AM unfortunatly this does not hold water, when dealing with falling damage, or submersion in acid or lava damage.It's an abstraction broad enough to forgive those inconsistencies. Yes, a Barbarian of high enough level can technically be locked in a blast furnace for a minute or two and survive, or even fall from the back of a dragon into a blast furnace. I suppose if you really wanted to, you could fix this by making those effects to lots of Con damage, or something, but I'm willing to live with the simple abstraction that HP gives me. And if I really want to, I can resort to calling it dumb luck that they survive (there are stories of people surviving free falls from thousands of feet by miraculous chance).
starfire311
01-12-07, 11:56 AM It's an abstraction broad enough to forgive those inconsistencies. Yes, a Barbarian of high enough level can technically be locked in a blast furnace for a minute or two and survive, or even fall from the back of a dragon into a blast furnace. I suppose if you really wanted to, you could fix this by making those effects to lots of Con damage, or something, but I'm willing to live with the simple abstraction that HP gives me. And if I really want to, I can resort to calling it dumb luck that they survive (there are stories of people surviving free falls from thousands of feet by miraculous chance).

another inconsistancy would be with cure spells, a 1st level cure spell can heal a fatal wound completly at 1st level, while it won't even heal a small scratch at level 20.

it would be a like a 1st level cleric healing people after a battle comes upon a 1st level warrior with a very nasty chest wound(he is down say 75% of his HP, and using a 1st level cure spell to heal it completly, then coming upon another serverly wounded character with teh exact same wound, being down about 75% HP, and he is like I will use the same spell,a nd it has nearly no effect, because this time ti is someone that is down 150 HP out of 200 HP.

Another crazy thing is that it would be possible to accuratly determine how many HPs someone has in game by using inflict minor and cure minor.

Post/Author/DateTime	Post
Voldar_Mecorthio 01-05-07, 10:09 PM	I don't really like the way hit points work in D&D. A perfectly aimed greataxe to the head will kill anyone, be the target a 1st level commoner or a 200th level barbarian, an axe to the skull will kill you. However, at high and epic levels, the average meleer can survive quite a few perfectly aimed greataxes to the head. I don't like that. So I created Voldar's Hit Point Interpretation System. In VHPIS, 90% of hit points are changed into Evasion Points (EP), which represent you dodging, parrying, or otherwise preventing yourself from being hit. The attack was aimed fine, but your skill prevented it from making contact. The loss of EP reprosent you getting tired, sore, or otherwise unable to parry, dodge, or otherwise avoid getting hit. For every ten points of damage recieved, nine are deducted from EP and one is deducted from HP. (Even if you can parry a blow, if that blow is strong enough you might nick your arm in a parry or have a glancing blow) If EP are completely depleted, you are completely unable to effectivly evade blows and all damage is taken against HP. Do you like it?
Krusk 01-05-07, 10:32 PM	Im not too big a fan of that 10 9 to ep 1 to hp thing. mostly because 99% of attacks do 11 damage, or 9 damage. And thats a lot of math involved. Maybe say that HP damage heals at a rate of 1 per day, but is otherwise treat everything the same. or something like for save vs 10+ammount of HP damage each round to stay conscious. so that once your ep wears down you finally start to get hit. could also include a parry skill. Parry (Dex or Str, player choice) - opposed checks are made. if the attacker wins by Attacker wins by - Result 5 10% chance to ignore EP 10 20% chance to ignore EP Ect defender wins by- result 5 attacker looses 2 AC 10 Attacker looses 4 AC ect possibly some way to make opponents flat footed.
Tequila_Sunrise 01-05-07, 10:50 PM	How do you deal with things like swords of wounding? So the sword doesn't do enough damage to actually draw blood according to your system, so how does it drain Con?
Kintara 01-06-07, 01:54 AM	I'm not sure I "get it." Why not just assume that HP works like "EP," until the character reaches 0 HP or below? It seems like all that's needed is just a reinterpretation, like you say in the title, rather than a mechanical change.I view HP precisely like that already. This extra mechanical stuff seems to be unnecessary.
enlightened 01-06-07, 01:55 AM	As a DM, I always describe how effective a blow was not by the total of the damage roll but rather by the percent of total HPs lost (based off of their full HP total, not their current HP total). If a first level fighter with 10 HPs gets hit with an battleaxe for 8 points of damage (in other words 80% of his total HPs), I would describe it as a very brutal blow. "The blade of the axe slams into the left side of your helmet, violently whipping your neck to the side and blood gushes out of your ear." However, if a tenth level fighter with 70 HPs gets hit with an axe for the same 8 points of damage (in other words about 11% of his total HPs), I would describe it as a glancing blow. "The orc's axe blade whizzes toward your head but you twist at the last moment and take the brunt of the blow on your shoulder protectors. That's gonna leave a deep bruise." So, for description purposes, the damage total is less important than the percentage of total HP lost. EDIT: So, even if a 200th level barbarian gets hit with a max damage critical from a 18 STR orc wielding a greataxe (48 points of damage compared with his 2000 HPs is only a loss of 2.5%) it should be described as only a glancing blow. (Actually his damage resistance would negate it completely but....you get the idea) Basically, after PCs get a certain amount of hit points, unless you tie them down and coup de grace them, you just can't even hit them squarely and cleanly in the head.
Ra-Tiel 01-06-07, 08:18 AM	[...] Basically, after PCs get a certain amount of hit points, unless you tie them down and coup de grace them, you just can't even hit them squarely and cleanly in the head. And even that becomes tendius at best. Ever had an evil thaumaturge try to sacrifice the king's son (a low level paladin) with his mighty 1d4-1 dagger? Against the paladin's Fort save of perhaps +10 or +12, and his 50 something HPs? BBEG: slit DIE PALADIN HARHARHAR... Paladin: No. BBEG: :uh-huh: Wh... What? Paladin: You did too little damage and I made my Fort save. BBEG: :doh: Ok... slit stab slit Paladin: Still not enough. See, the Fort save DC is only 14 or 16 for me, I'll make that in around 70% of all cases. BBEG: :tantrum: DAMNIT! stab stab stab slit Will you already die!?! :mad: Paladin: Nope. BBEG: :banghead: ... @OP: Have you already considered Vitality and Wound Points (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/variant/adventuring/vitalityAndWoundPoints.htm)?
Voldar_Mecorthio 01-06-07, 04:04 PM	For your coup de grace effect, I rule that it's insta kill 100% of the time. No save. If you're helpless and your enemies are attacking you, you WILL die. They just slit your throat, hack off your head, cave in your skull, or otherwise fatally injure you. There's no concievable way anyone could survive that, even a 40th level paladin with a charisma of 60 and a constitution of 40.
Voldar_Mecorthio 01-06-07, 04:06 PM	That vitality/wound point system is very similar, and I like the idea. I don't have a campaign going right now, but once I start one I'll let the players pick between V/W and VHPIS.
Ra-Tiel 01-06-07, 05:10 PM	For your coup de grace effect, I rule that it's insta kill 100% of the time. No save. If you're helpless and your enemies are attacking you, you WILL die. They just slit your throat, hack off your head, cave in your skull, or otherwise fatally injure you. There's no concievable way anyone could survive that, even a 40th level paladin with a charisma of 60 and a constitution of 40. It's your game, and I don't want to interfere with your style of DMing, but that's a tad harsh imho. Considering that there are many effects that can reduce a character to "helpless" (basically any poison that deals ability damage other than Con, hold X spells, shivering touch, ego whip, ...) and that your AC drops by 5 (for being treated as having Dex 0) it seems that not even allowing a save is over the top. I mean, the same reasoning could be applied to fireballs and lightning bolds, couldn't it? And my example was just an exaggerated pun on the clonky rules regarding that area of combat. ;) That vitality/wound point system is very similar, and I like the idea. I don't have a campaign going right now, but once I start one I'll let the players pick between V/W and VHPIS. It's just that I personally find VP/WP being easier and more clear than your variant. shrug Whatever floats your boat. :D
Voldar_Mecorthio 01-07-07, 07:08 PM	That's why I'm giving players a choice. If they like mine better, we'll use mine. If they don't want either, we'll use normal HP. If they like V/W we'll use that. I am strongly in favor of letting the players choose between varient systems.
Behaigo 01-07-07, 08:18 PM	This is somewhat similar to this (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/variant/adventuring/vitalityAndWoundPoints.htm). I recommend using it.
Thelon Fairblade 01-09-07, 02:13 PM	Another idea is to instad shift compeltely away from HP and use sometihng like the Toughness Save implemented in Mutants and Masterminds. Your average Axe blow is a DC3 attack. Your average Thug type has a Toughness save bonus of +3. the base DC of any toughness save is 15; make it = no effect, fail by 5 = bruised/wounded, fail by 10 = stunned and bruised/wounded, fail by 15 = KO'd/disabled. so average Thug usually gets bruised by each attack, which imposes a -1 to all his actions each time. But on a bad save (a 3 or less) ... the axe goes through his skull, dead. NEcromancer stabbing king's son... dagger is DC +2, helpless target = critical hit = +5 bonus. Necromancer uses Extra Effort to "power attack", -5 to hit, +5 DC. King's Son is a rowdy fighter type with Toughness +6. Save DC is 15+2+5+5 = 27, and king's son has 1d20+6 to make the save... on average, he's dead. a good roll will result in just bruising. Of course, in D&D the necromancer should also be doing a critical hit (6 pts), and could use GM fiat to Power Attack, or Sneak Attack, or Fell Strike, or something. Perhaps a level of ranger for "favored Enemy: anything on my scrificial altar"... :-)
starfire311 01-09-07, 04:20 PM	NEcromancer stabbing king's son... dagger is DC +2, helpless target = critical hit = +5 bonus. Necromancer uses Extra Effort to "power attack", -5 to hit, +5 DC. King's Son is a rowdy fighter type with Toughness +6. Save DC is 15+2+5+5 = 27, and king's son has 1d20+6 to make the save... on average, he's dead. a good roll will result in just bruising. I loved the toughness mechanic at 1st, but after playing with it for awhile I ahev begun to dislike it, and anyway in your example on average he would get a 16.5 and fail by 10.5 be wounded, need to fail by 15 to die, actually there is only a 30% chance that the necromancer suceeds on his 1st try.
Egarb 01-10-07, 11:01 AM	HP already represents this if you think about it in the right way, its Hit points not Health points. I always thought of HP as a measure of how much combat you could take due to your experience, not all of it actually "Being to withstand being shot in the face" . A first level person gets hit with an axe and takes 11 damage, he dies. A fifth level person would live, why? He dodged and took only a grazing wound. Still 11 damage, but that 11 damage means somthing different to the fifth level person.
starfire311 01-10-07, 12:56 PM	HP already represents this if you think about it in the right way, its Hit points not Health points. I always thought of HP as a measure of how much combat you could take due to your experience, not all of it actually "Being to withstand being shot in the face" . A first level person gets hit with an axe and takes 11 damage, he dies. A fifth level person would live, why? He dodged and took only a grazing wound. Still 11 damage, but that 11 damage means somthing different to the fifth level person. unfortunatly this does not hold water, when dealing with falling damage, or submersion in acid or lava damage.
Kursk 01-10-07, 03:44 PM	Mechanically how does this change a/g. I have 100 HP or whatever, I take 90 dmg, I still have 10 hp or whatever. So what's the diff?
Voldar_Mecorthio 01-11-07, 02:01 PM	Mechanically how does this change a/g. I have 100 HP or whatever, I take 90 dmg, I still have 10 hp or whatever. So what's the diff? It's mostly a flavor thing.
Kintara 01-12-07, 03:28 AM	unfortunatly this does not hold water, when dealing with falling damage, or submersion in acid or lava damage.It's an abstraction broad enough to forgive those inconsistencies. Yes, a Barbarian of high enough level can technically be locked in a blast furnace for a minute or two and survive, or even fall from the back of a dragon into a blast furnace. I suppose if you really wanted to, you could fix this by making those effects to lots of Con damage, or something, but I'm willing to live with the simple abstraction that HP gives me. And if I really want to, I can resort to calling it dumb luck that they survive (there are stories of people surviving free falls from thousands of feet by miraculous chance).
starfire311 01-12-07, 11:56 AM	It's an abstraction broad enough to forgive those inconsistencies. Yes, a Barbarian of high enough level can technically be locked in a blast furnace for a minute or two and survive, or even fall from the back of a dragon into a blast furnace. I suppose if you really wanted to, you could fix this by making those effects to lots of Con damage, or something, but I'm willing to live with the simple abstraction that HP gives me. And if I really want to, I can resort to calling it dumb luck that they survive (there are stories of people surviving free falls from thousands of feet by miraculous chance). another inconsistancy would be with cure spells, a 1st level cure spell can heal a fatal wound completly at 1st level, while it won't even heal a small scratch at level 20. it would be a like a 1st level cleric healing people after a battle comes upon a 1st level warrior with a very nasty chest wound(he is down say 75% of his HP, and using a 1st level cure spell to heal it completly, then coming upon another serverly wounded character with teh exact same wound, being down about 75% HP, and he is like I will use the same spell,a nd it has nearly no effect, because this time ti is someone that is down 150 HP out of 200 HP. Another crazy thing is that it would be possible to accuratly determine how many HPs someone has in game by using inflict minor and cure minor.