A new way to defeat evil. [Archive] - Wizards Community

A new way to defeat evil. [Archive] - Wizards Community

Post/Author/DateTime Post
SilvercatMoonpaw
06-03-06, 09:20 AM What if during combat with evil creatures instead of harming them your actions drove out the essence of evil? I'm thinking more specifically of making a world where evil is powered by the Taint mechanic, so there is an actual mechanical number to reduce. Things like "smite evil" and other such spells and abilities wouldn't harm the opponent but instead lower the Taint score to the point at which the being was set free and the players have effectively defeated it. What I'm not sure of is how to create a Taint score that scales with HD/levels yet isn't just hit points in another form. I was thinking that maybe Taint points are equal to HD, and that each strike with "good" magic or weapons deals 1 point of Taint cleansing per die of damage + character's Cha modifier. I really think it would be interesting if I could use this as a way to encourage alternatives to killing foes, even one that seem hopelessly evil.
jagggar
06-03-06, 03:29 PM Hmm, another formula could be (HD x 2 - 1)

Or maybe if it was loosely based on the detect evil chart. So an evil cleric would have more taint points than an evil fighter. I'll play around with that idea and see what I come up with.

But yeah, I like this idea. Gives a whole different flavor.
SilvercatMoonpaw
06-04-06, 07:13 AM Hmm, another formula could be (HD x 2 - 1)

Or maybe if it was loosely based on the detect evil chart. So an evil cleric would have more taint points than an evil fighter. I'll play around with that idea and see what I come up with.

But yeah, I like this idea. Gives a whole different flavor.
Thanks for the response. HD x 2 -1 sounds like a good idea for simple monsters (maybe change it to just HD x 2 so there's an easy calculation), but I like the idea of using the detect evil chart. That means that more Tainted people have more points to cleanse. I go back and read over it and see what that can give me.
stargate525
06-04-06, 01:58 PM so what about the people who have willingly embraced evil? Smacking them enough with a holy blade makes them saints?
Drachasor
06-04-06, 03:04 PM I think the taint score needs to be more on the order of the hitpoints of the creature. It should be HARDER to remove the taint from an individual instead of killing him. That way the PCs have to be a choice between the easy way of killing and the hard way of cleansing.

As for purely evil people, I would expect that you could remove taint, but that doesn't make them good. I'd view taint as something that can control and corrupt people, but someone who is already very evil might not notice a difference in his behavior. Cleansing would cause them to lose any advantages their taint gave them, however. Could make a battle quite interesting if the enemy keeps fighting you after you've cleansed him; or perhaps he'll just pretend to be "better." Either way an interesting dynamic.

-Drachasor
SilvercatMoonpaw
06-04-06, 05:33 PM Okay, yeah, it has some really big flaws. It works if everything is based on number of dice, but breaks down when you consider that there a whole lot of ways to add on extra hit damage that messes up the calculation of cleansing. And then there's the fact that I don't know what to do about healing. So let me answer some questions and then propose some alternatives for discussion:

I want to use this system in a world that doesn't have Good and Evil alignments. Note that I didn't say there wasn't good and evil as personalities or interpretations of actions, but there is no way to use the detect evil spell. Evil is something that you have to decide on for your own. That said I don't mind the idea of an evil "force" that makes people a certain kind of evil against their will. Actually, I was thinking that its not all about evil but it's really more about subjigating people's free will. Taint slowly erodes your individual personality until you reach a level at which you become Bound and are now basically a puppet of one of the forces fighting to impose their worldview. So no, smaking someone with a sword doesn't make them a saint. It only gives them their free will back.

Maybe another route to go is the Tarrasque method: you have to knock them out with non-lethal damage and then cast a certain spell or use a certain item that every player could have access to. This still leaves the target alive while allowing combat people to help. I have three problems with the idea: 1) I want the players to have the abiltiy to cleanse even undead and constructs, 2) some things like spells don't come with a non-lethal function, 3) I want the method I use to be easy enough that it doesn't cause players to think that it would be just easier to kill. Unless I can be sure of getting a group of nice people I have the possibility that there are going to be some who just hack their way through the demon horde without even thinking.
Millennium
06-05-06, 08:18 AM This sounds somewhat like the PS2 game La Pucelle Tactics, at least in terms of the basic concept. Am I right?
jagggar
06-05-06, 09:49 AM 2) some things like spells don't come with a non-lethal function, There's a feat called Subdual Substitution (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/divine/divineAbilitiesFeats.htm#subdualSubstitu tion) (if the link doesn't take you straight there, it's the second from the bottom).

For the amount of taint a creature has being based on detect evil, "Evil Creatures" would have a taint score equal to their HD. "Evil Undead" would have a taint score equal to their HD x 2. "Evil Outsiders" and "Evil Clerics" would have a taint score equal to their HD x 4. (Depending on the values of taint being removed, you could half those numbers or double them as needed.)

Now, as far as removal through spells and stuff,
I think you should keep that more or less the way it is in UA, maybe make up new spells so you're not healing them at the same time just incase they're naturally evil.
Smite should probably remove taint equal to something + Cha modifier.
But I think magic weapons should do a set amount of cleansing. Let characters take a feat to add their Cha modifier to the taint points removed.
I think one special weapon ability would be to deal normal damage and remove one point of taint. A different weapon should never deal damage, but remove the amount of taint equal to the damage it would normally deal (but no Str mod to the points cleansed).
SilvercatMoonpaw
06-05-06, 10:26 AM This sounds somewhat like the PS2 game La Pucelle Tactics, at least in terms of the basic concept. Am I right?
Never heard of it. I don't play PS2.

As for the suggestions of jaggar:
Thanks for the reference.

I did plan to have a detect taint spell, just not a detect evil alignment.

The problem with the UA method is that most spells can't reduce taint below 1. That doesn't work here because a character is bound to serve the forces of the taint until they are fully cleansed. So long as they have even 1 point they aren't defeated. The rule I'm using is that Taint does Charisma damage until you've lost half your score. Then the cha damage goes away but the character becomes an unwilling servant of the forces of taint until their taint score is reduced back to 0. The UA method requires too many high-level spells, and they are spells which means that non-spellcasters can't use them. I like your idea about magic weapons doing a set cleansing damage, but the question is how do I scale the amount of taint so that cleansing seems like a viable option alongside just killing people.
jagggar
06-05-06, 12:34 PM Mostly what I mean is that you should keep it to spells that would make sense. Heal curing taint makes sense while a fireball that reduces taint doesn't really. By all means create lower level spells which cleanse taint all the way down to 0. And a metamagic feat that allows you to add a cleansing property to fireball. Just don't add it to fireball right off the bat.

Now how mcuh taint things should cure is a real question. First it depends on how many taint points each creature gets. Then it depends on how much easier or harder you want cleansing the target to be than out right killing it.
SilvercatMoonpaw
06-05-06, 03:22 PM Mostly what I mean is that you should keep it to spells that would make sense. Heal curing taint makes sense while a fireball that reduces taint doesn't really. By all means create lower level spells which cleanse taint all the way down to 0. And a metamagic feat that allows you to add a cleansing property to fireball. Just don't add it to fireball right off the bat.

Now how mcuh taint things should cure is a real question. First it depends on how many taint points each creature gets. Then it depends on how much easier or harder you want cleansing the target to be than out right killing it.
Okay, you make some sense. The problem I constantly worry about is creating something which the players will ignore. A feat that allows you to apply cleansing to a spell strikes me as that (I could, however, see a feat that allows you to apply it to any kind of strike (weapon, unarmed, spell, etc.)). Maybe a spell component that is only moderately pricy (more than your average person can afford, but low enough that adevnturers would use it). As for number of points I'd still like to try and make it a viable option next to hit points, but I'd also like it to scale with HD.
d24478667
06-05-06, 08:34 PM For the subdual thing, there is the drawback of having to be a god.....

Great idea! Perhaps

Purifying (weapon quality)
The weapon does 1.5x normal damage, but can only go to taint.
+1?2?
SilvercatMoonpaw
06-06-06, 05:55 PM Okay, so far what people have said makes me thinks that this is going to be very tricky. I still like HD x 2 for the reason that it makes classes like Wizard and Sorcerer about as hard to cleanse as Fighters and Barbarians. Somehow that just fits. My first instinct is to have 5 points of hit point damage convert to 1 point of taint cleansing (round down, minimum of 1 unless the attack deals no damage).

However I sort of wonder if I shouldn't base it on another factor to distance hurting people from cleansing taint. I still like "deal non-lethal damage => use magic item or special substance to cleanse taint". I think I wouldn't worry about constructs and undead, just saying that their forms become inhert at 0 hit points instead of being destroyed so you can still "save" them.

Maybe combine the two? HD x 2 taint, but you can only cleanse it with 5 points non-lethal damage per 1 point taint and real damage actually heals the creature. Violence = taint. I like that. :D Unless anyone can see a problem and tell me about it I'm going to go for that one.

Post/Author/DateTime	Post
SilvercatMoonpaw 06-03-06, 09:20 AM	What if during combat with evil creatures instead of harming them your actions drove out the essence of evil? I'm thinking more specifically of making a world where evil is powered by the Taint mechanic, so there is an actual mechanical number to reduce. Things like "smite evil" and other such spells and abilities wouldn't harm the opponent but instead lower the Taint score to the point at which the being was set free and the players have effectively defeated it. What I'm not sure of is how to create a Taint score that scales with HD/levels yet isn't just hit points in another form. I was thinking that maybe Taint points are equal to HD, and that each strike with "good" magic or weapons deals 1 point of Taint cleansing per die of damage + character's Cha modifier. I really think it would be interesting if I could use this as a way to encourage alternatives to killing foes, even one that seem hopelessly evil.
jagggar 06-03-06, 03:29 PM	Hmm, another formula could be (HD x 2 - 1) Or maybe if it was loosely based on the detect evil chart. So an evil cleric would have more taint points than an evil fighter. I'll play around with that idea and see what I come up with. But yeah, I like this idea. Gives a whole different flavor.
SilvercatMoonpaw 06-04-06, 07:13 AM	Hmm, another formula could be (HD x 2 - 1) Or maybe if it was loosely based on the detect evil chart. So an evil cleric would have more taint points than an evil fighter. I'll play around with that idea and see what I come up with. But yeah, I like this idea. Gives a whole different flavor. Thanks for the response. HD x 2 -1 sounds like a good idea for simple monsters (maybe change it to just HD x 2 so there's an easy calculation), but I like the idea of using the detect evil chart. That means that more Tainted people have more points to cleanse. I go back and read over it and see what that can give me.
stargate525 06-04-06, 01:58 PM	so what about the people who have willingly embraced evil? Smacking them enough with a holy blade makes them saints?
Drachasor 06-04-06, 03:04 PM	I think the taint score needs to be more on the order of the hitpoints of the creature. It should be HARDER to remove the taint from an individual instead of killing him. That way the PCs have to be a choice between the easy way of killing and the hard way of cleansing. As for purely evil people, I would expect that you could remove taint, but that doesn't make them good. I'd view taint as something that can control and corrupt people, but someone who is already very evil might not notice a difference in his behavior. Cleansing would cause them to lose any advantages their taint gave them, however. Could make a battle quite interesting if the enemy keeps fighting you after you've cleansed him; or perhaps he'll just pretend to be "better." Either way an interesting dynamic. -Drachasor
SilvercatMoonpaw 06-04-06, 05:33 PM	Okay, yeah, it has some really big flaws. It works if everything is based on number of dice, but breaks down when you consider that there a whole lot of ways to add on extra hit damage that messes up the calculation of cleansing. And then there's the fact that I don't know what to do about healing. So let me answer some questions and then propose some alternatives for discussion: I want to use this system in a world that doesn't have Good and Evil alignments. Note that I didn't say there wasn't good and evil as personalities or interpretations of actions, but there is no way to use the detect evil spell. Evil is something that you have to decide on for your own. That said I don't mind the idea of an evil "force" that makes people a certain kind of evil against their will. Actually, I was thinking that its not all about evil but it's really more about subjigating people's free will. Taint slowly erodes your individual personality until you reach a level at which you become Bound and are now basically a puppet of one of the forces fighting to impose their worldview. So no, smaking someone with a sword doesn't make them a saint. It only gives them their free will back. Maybe another route to go is the Tarrasque method: you have to knock them out with non-lethal damage and then cast a certain spell or use a certain item that every player could have access to. This still leaves the target alive while allowing combat people to help. I have three problems with the idea: 1) I want the players to have the abiltiy to cleanse even undead and constructs, 2) some things like spells don't come with a non-lethal function, 3) I want the method I use to be easy enough that it doesn't cause players to think that it would be just easier to kill. Unless I can be sure of getting a group of nice people I have the possibility that there are going to be some who just hack their way through the demon horde without even thinking.
Millennium 06-05-06, 08:18 AM	This sounds somewhat like the PS2 game La Pucelle Tactics, at least in terms of the basic concept. Am I right?
jagggar 06-05-06, 09:49 AM	2) some things like spells don't come with a non-lethal function, There's a feat called Subdual Substitution (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/divine/divineAbilitiesFeats.htm#subdualSubstitu tion) (if the link doesn't take you straight there, it's the second from the bottom). For the amount of taint a creature has being based on detect evil, "Evil Creatures" would have a taint score equal to their HD. "Evil Undead" would have a taint score equal to their HD x 2. "Evil Outsiders" and "Evil Clerics" would have a taint score equal to their HD x 4. (Depending on the values of taint being removed, you could half those numbers or double them as needed.) Now, as far as removal through spells and stuff, I think you should keep that more or less the way it is in UA, maybe make up new spells so you're not healing them at the same time just incase they're naturally evil. Smite should probably remove taint equal to something + Cha modifier. But I think magic weapons should do a set amount of cleansing. Let characters take a feat to add their Cha modifier to the taint points removed. I think one special weapon ability would be to deal normal damage and remove one point of taint. A different weapon should never deal damage, but remove the amount of taint equal to the damage it would normally deal (but no Str mod to the points cleansed).
SilvercatMoonpaw 06-05-06, 10:26 AM	This sounds somewhat like the PS2 game La Pucelle Tactics, at least in terms of the basic concept. Am I right? Never heard of it. I don't play PS2. As for the suggestions of jaggar: Thanks for the reference. I did plan to have a detect taint spell, just not a detect evil alignment. The problem with the UA method is that most spells can't reduce taint below 1. That doesn't work here because a character is bound to serve the forces of the taint until they are fully cleansed. So long as they have even 1 point they aren't defeated. The rule I'm using is that Taint does Charisma damage until you've lost half your score. Then the cha damage goes away but the character becomes an unwilling servant of the forces of taint until their taint score is reduced back to 0. The UA method requires too many high-level spells, and they are spells which means that non-spellcasters can't use them. I like your idea about magic weapons doing a set cleansing damage, but the question is how do I scale the amount of taint so that cleansing seems like a viable option alongside just killing people.
jagggar 06-05-06, 12:34 PM	Mostly what I mean is that you should keep it to spells that would make sense. Heal curing taint makes sense while a fireball that reduces taint doesn't really. By all means create lower level spells which cleanse taint all the way down to 0. And a metamagic feat that allows you to add a cleansing property to fireball. Just don't add it to fireball right off the bat. Now how mcuh taint things should cure is a real question. First it depends on how many taint points each creature gets. Then it depends on how much easier or harder you want cleansing the target to be than out right killing it.
SilvercatMoonpaw 06-05-06, 03:22 PM	Mostly what I mean is that you should keep it to spells that would make sense. Heal curing taint makes sense while a fireball that reduces taint doesn't really. By all means create lower level spells which cleanse taint all the way down to 0. And a metamagic feat that allows you to add a cleansing property to fireball. Just don't add it to fireball right off the bat. Now how mcuh taint things should cure is a real question. First it depends on how many taint points each creature gets. Then it depends on how much easier or harder you want cleansing the target to be than out right killing it. Okay, you make some sense. The problem I constantly worry about is creating something which the players will ignore. A feat that allows you to apply cleansing to a spell strikes me as that (I could, however, see a feat that allows you to apply it to any kind of strike (weapon, unarmed, spell, etc.)). Maybe a spell component that is only moderately pricy (more than your average person can afford, but low enough that adevnturers would use it). As for number of points I'd still like to try and make it a viable option next to hit points, but I'd also like it to scale with HD.
d24478667 06-05-06, 08:34 PM	For the subdual thing, there is the drawback of having to be a god..... Great idea! Perhaps Purifying (weapon quality) The weapon does 1.5x normal damage, but can only go to taint. +1?2?
SilvercatMoonpaw 06-06-06, 05:55 PM	Okay, so far what people have said makes me thinks that this is going to be very tricky. I still like HD x 2 for the reason that it makes classes like Wizard and Sorcerer about as hard to cleanse as Fighters and Barbarians. Somehow that just fits. My first instinct is to have 5 points of hit point damage convert to 1 point of taint cleansing (round down, minimum of 1 unless the attack deals no damage). However I sort of wonder if I shouldn't base it on another factor to distance hurting people from cleansing taint. I still like "deal non-lethal damage => use magic item or special substance to cleanse taint". I think I wouldn't worry about constructs and undead, just saying that their forms become inhert at 0 hit points instead of being destroyed so you can still "save" them. Maybe combine the two? HD x 2 taint, but you can only cleanse it with 5 points non-lethal damage per 1 point taint and real damage actually heals the creature. Violence = taint. I like that. :D Unless anyone can see a problem and tell me about it I'm going to go for that one.