Post/Author/DateTime	Post
swanyusd 08-18-07, 11:53 AM	Hey guys. This is my first post on this forum, and I hope i'm in the right place. Here's what I've got. Basically, there are now crunch books coming out all the time detailing different classes with different abilities, but they all boil down to this: caster, warrior, skillful. This is very oversimplified, obviously. However, I was trying to figure out a way to make more customization with characters, and I think I've got the whole picture figured out. 1 - First, classes will be one of the 3 generic classes in U.A.: the spellcaster, the expert, or the warrior. Now, characters will be able to set up their guy as they choose. I was thinking on giving spellcasters 1 more spell per level known the whole way around. So, if it says 1 spell known, they have 2, if it says 3, they have 4. This is due to the fact that favored souls have WAY more spells known than sorcerers, so I wanted to balance this out a bit. I realize that having all the spell lists to work from is in the casters favor, but I don't think this is overpowering. 2 - Any feats acquired along the way can be used for any feats, or class abilities, as shown on page 76 of U.A. Any class ability will be able to be received this way, but of course its the DM's choice as to what prereq's are required. I could limit this to base classes only, but it shouldn't be a problem to allow PrCs in this too. Item creation feats will not exist. 3 - There will be a class defense bonus system, as highlighted on page 110. If a character were to take an armor proficiency, they would move up the defense bonus list. So a caster, theoretically, could use 3 feats to get the best defense bonus. 4 - Everyone will get the equivalent bonuses as per Vow of Poverty, without being required to gain the feats. This is due to no magic items existing in the world. Bonus exalted feats can be used for any feat or special ability. 5 - I was thinking of trying to create a way for characters to add special qualities to their weapons. They get enchantment bonuses to their weapons eventually, but they won't get the "flaming quality". I was thinking of making this the equivalent of a feat/special ability, and requiring the character to be a certain level, ala the Samurai from Oriental Adventures. This would override the VoP bonuses. It works like this: 4th level: +1 8: +2 10: +3 12: +4 13: +5 14: +6 15: +7 16: +8 17: +9 18: +10 So, if I was a warrior, I would get 2 bonus feats at 8th. I could chose "flaming weapon" as one of them. Potentially, I could chose flaming and frost at 8th, and make the choice a swift action before combat to decide which one I want to activate. This could allow for more customization, but use up valuable feat slots. This is all I have right now. Please let me know what you think. I want any and all critiques, but don't be rude please. Thank you. -Swany
Tequila_Sunrise 08-18-07, 03:47 PM	Personally I think the bonuses that VoP grants are pretty awkward (why would every character gain DR/evil?). I came up with a pretty simple system to replace magical items myself: each level (or you might prefer every second level), a character chooses a 'power'. These powers do all of the same things that magical items do, but they advance with level automatically at a steady pace. For example, a warrior might choose the Enhanced Armor power which adds a +1 AC bonus to any armor he wears at 2nd level and every four levels thereafter. If you're interested I can post my current list of powers next week. TS
nonsi 08-18-07, 04:13 PM	If it's not too much to ask, why do you wish to remove magical items from the game altogether ?
Thakowsaizmu 08-19-07, 12:26 AM	Change of pace. I've done it a few times, though I didn't bother changing anything else class wise. Disallowed all of the caster classes though. It makes things a bit more interesting at times, and sometimes it's just fun to have your fighter cover herself in woad and yell "FREEDOM" while charging at the English... wait, that was Braveheart...
calronmoonflower 08-19-07, 03:56 AM	I once heard of a variant that let you enchant charka points (one for each magic item type) on a being's body instead of having magic items. This could be used to replace the Vow of Poverty like effect that you are using and allow for weapon enhancements.
Golem1972 08-19-07, 01:44 PM	It's low magic, not no magic, but you might take a look at the Conan D20 RPG. It seems to be balanced without the magic items needed by every other D20 system. Or, the Game of Thrones sytem is similar. They both still have spell casters, but it kinda sucks to be one.
swanyusd 08-19-07, 02:03 PM	Well, the idea was that there was overwhelming evil ruling the world, except it was intelligent monsters and the like. The heroes will be the first, and they will be the saviors of the human race (who are enslaved). Magic item creation has not yet been invented, so I figured this could be the way around it. Specific classes wouldn't have been invented or specialized yet either, so the generalist classes would take precedent. Basically, I was wondering if that was balanced or not. -Swany
nonsi 08-19-07, 04:18 PM	Well, the idea was that there was overwhelming evil ruling the world, except it was intelligent monsters and the like. The heroes will be the first, and they will be the saviors of the human race (who are enslaved). Magic item creation has not yet been invented, so I figured this could be the way around it. Specific classes wouldn't have been invented or specialized yet either, so the generalist classes would take precedent. Basically, I was wondering if that was balanced or not. -Swany Well, if you're trying to lead your gameworld to eventually get to where the game rules stand at current, you'll have a hard time undoing the ability to buy magical abilities with feats. To avoid underpowering the characters too much in comparison to their opponents you could dictate that all combat buffering spells don't yet exist (actually, I'd suggest to go more in the direction of NEVER), except for Armor AC boost. Anyway, your gameworld characters should not include "civilized" classes like Wizards, Monks, Rogues, Bards or Clerics. I'd use Warlocks, Sorcerers, Druids and Spirit Shamans (maybe even add a Witch class..... something like this (http://boards1.wizards.com/showthread.php?t=119098)) for the spellcasters. For the warrior classes I'd use mostly Barbarians (even though I can't stand this class, but it's appropriate due to the primitive nature of your gameworld) and Rangers (especially the shapeshifting variant, which would allow you to ommit the Druid and avoid game balance issues), and maybe also semi-sneaky Fighter variants. Also consider banning certain skills like Forgery, Knowledge (nobility and royalty), Open Locks, Tumble, UMD, and other skills that are inappropriate for pre-civilized times. That's it off the top of my head..... but just one problem with this storyline: with all the classes that ARE available in the primitive world, how would you excuse the humanoid races being enslaved ?
swanyusd 08-19-07, 07:41 PM	That's it off the top of my head..... but just one problem with this storyline: with all the classes that ARE available in the primitive world, how would you excuse the humanoid races being enslaved ? First, just humans, not humanoids, would be enslaved. Not even sure I would have other races. The idea is this, there was once a huge booming human cosmopolitan nation. High magic, lots of variety, etc. Then something like a demon or a lich or some big bad evil nasty comes into the world, and takes it over with a demon/monstrous army. I don't obviously have anything fully plotted out, but basically the creature could be a demi-god, for added spookiness. He conquers the nation/world, eliminates all the other races due to their refusal to submit and repeated rebellions, and subjugates humans as his slaves. Except one person survives, and sets up events that will lead to a prophecy fulfilled later down the road (say 100-1000 years or so). He transforms himself as ghost, and haunts a crypt deep underground. Perhaps he is a wizard. He then spends his continued existence scrying the world, attempting to find the ones who will fulfill the prophecy. Enter the PCs. It will be them, and he begins sending them messages in their dreams. Eventually, they will attempt to seek him out because of his continued persistence, and he will reveal to them what is necessary to begin them on their path. Since he is a ghost, he is tied to his crypt until the PCs destroy the demon-god. But he doesn't reveal that now. Perhaps he teaches them to read, and with it they begin reading the volumes that he has stored in the crypt, which teach them the basics of fighting, magic, and scouting. Many of these tomes will be the magic tomes of stat building. I intended the PCs to start out with all 10s in their stats, except they can pick one stat to be 12. The class they will take will be based on this stat eventually, but I won't reveal that to them. When they escape their captors and make it to the crypt, their "natural" talent will reveal itself to them and they will begin their quest to destroy the demon-god as 1st level adventurers. They may get advice from the ghost oracle, but everything will be up to them as to how to proceed. Hence the no-magic items, generalist classes. I figured that they could customize their guys as they wanted, to fit whatever mold they were roleplaying with their characters. I just wanted to make sure it was balanced, at least so that it wasn't overpowered horribly. I think it may be on the underpowered side, but I can deal with that easier. So it's not really pre-civilization, its post-civilization reforging of the past. I may indeed give the monsters classes, but I will try to give them ones that fit with the theme, just as you mentioned. Sorcerer makes more sense than wizard. Barbarian fits better than fighter. The PCs will be generalist characters. They won't even have class levels for the first game session or two. No items save basic clothes. Their stats will be 10s. So they will have to be ingenious with escaping, without being geniuses so to speak. Once they have their levels, its up to them how they want to lead their rebellion. -Swany
Jeweler 08-19-07, 10:33 PM	So this kinda interests me because I want to see how the generalist and no above average stats works out for you in your game. Few things, suggestions and questions. How are you going to work the characters out to be 0th level, is the majority of the first few sessions going to be all roleplaying/puzzle solving? If so I applaud you and your group *if they know about it* for being able to have an attention span longer than a fly. Second, In my personal opinion anything is possible if well enough explained. So if you could explain why it is that spending a feat would allow them to give 'magical' bonuses to their weapons/armor and what not. Does it deal with the ghost imparting power to them to do so? Or is it something similar to the Samurai Daisho, I think that is what it is, where the power of the character's ancestors give him the abilities? Do they gain the ability from killing their opponents and then need a feat to unlock it, as in they take a part of their soul *or their body for that matter* and this allows them to gain minor bonuses? Which now that I say that I would actually suggest something like that, if you defeat something with a high natural bonus the character might be able to take a spirit trophy from it or whatever and gain a small benefit from it dependent on their level. You might still need a feat for it, such as Offensive Trophies, Defensive Trophies, Travel Trophies, so on and so forth. Sight of the Dark Beasts Trophy Fluff: You take the eye or other visual sensory organ of an opponent and keep it close to your face, usually around the neck but sometimes taking the place of a lost eye. Benefit: You gain darkvision of 10 feet for every 3 HD *play with the number* of the creature who originally owned the eye. That creature must have had darkvision naturally before it died. Only one sight trophy can be active at a time for each pair of eyes you have. *just something for me because I might use this* Requirement:Craft Sensory Trophy, Craft (trophy) ranks equal to the number of 10 feet increments times 3 *no easy way to say it for me*, then price it and xp weigh it This is all a suggestion though, sorry if it isn't what you want or lacking in some way.
Vaelan 08-20-07, 01:32 AM	It looks like you have the majority of crunchy magic items covered between VoP and Class Defense. I would tone down Class Defense a little though, since VoP is already written to make up for not having much in the way of AC boosts.
swanyusd 08-22-07, 08:31 PM	Do you think so? At 20th level, bonuses equal out to AC 37, not including dexterity. That's not particularly impressive. That is, by the way, for the best defense bonus. I was not, for this particular campaign, going to have armor or shields be available. So I'm thinking tops AC is around 45, if the player absolutely pumps his dex. I think I would still allow armor bonus spells, as they really don't improve the AC of the players that much, considering how beneficial the system is. I mean, it would be 1 spell slot to raise AC between 2-4 for a small amount of time.
Vaelan 08-22-07, 10:53 PM	I was not, for this particular campaign, going to have armor or shields be available. Well that would certainly warrant sizable BDBs (Base Defense Bonuses!). I think I would still allow armor bonus spells, as they really don't improve the AC of the players that much, considering how beneficial the system is. I mean, it would be 1 spell slot to raise AC between 2-4 for a small amount of time. Greater Mage Armor, Shield, and Abjurant Champion. +15 AC, if I remember correctly (+6 armor, +4 shield, +5 to shield from Abjurant Champion). You'd probably want to just not allow Abjurant Champions or strong armor spells.
swanyusd 08-23-07, 03:32 PM	Since it would be generic classes only, PrCs are right out. Just the base classes, that's it. Not a problem :)
Phantom 08-30-07, 09:12 PM	You may want to have a look at Iron Heroes.
Holy_Beholder 08-31-07, 09:18 PM	Personally I think the bonuses that VoP grants are pretty awkward (why would every character gain DR/evil?). I came up with a pretty simple system to replace magical items myself: each level (or you might prefer every second level), a character chooses a 'power'. These powers do all of the same things that magical items do, but they advance with level automatically at a steady pace. For example, a warrior might choose the Enhanced Armor power which adds a +1 AC bonus to any armor he wears at 2nd level and every four levels thereafter. If you're interested I can post my current list of powers next week. TS I have seen a similar system implemented, and helped implement it. You can also get lesser abilities. I think elements and stuff should be reserved for magic, or alchemy, or advanced chemistry. On the other hand, abilities like speed, vorpal, and +x stuff can be put in easily. They would be slightly more expensive than spells, but they work whenever you pick up a certain customized type of weapon, that you can have made as a masterwork weapon. The same thing applies to armor.
Kemev 09-01-07, 08:03 PM	Just curious, but have you run all of this by your players yet? I ask because it sounds like your campaign is gearing up to be very roleplay intensive, especially since with limited class abilities and no magic items, your characters will struggle mightily with encounters based on the Core Encounter Level rules, and so will have trouble advancing through sort of standard hack and slash rules. Some people will find it an enjoyable change of pace, but some might get frustrated quickly. Also, bear in mind that having no- or very limited-equipment is going to punish your warriors much, much more heavily than spellcasters. I don't think this is a good thing, since spellcasters rapidly become vastly more powerful than warriors even in an item filled world. (Especially since you plan on adding extra spells per day for the spellcaster). Last, I'd suggest that instead of giving everyone flat 10s and a 12 for their stats, use the common array instead (it's the set of stats generally used for generating regular NPCs). I believe the numbers are 13, 12, 11, 10, 9, 8. The characters remain commoners, but the players have an option for making a unique PC instead of someone who's pretty much the same as everyone else. (You might even consider bumping the 13 to 15, just to maintain the +1 sum modifiers).
Ewert 09-06-07, 05:27 PM	I once toyed around the idea of no magic items, and how to go at it with least possible changes to the core rules. And I think what I came up was easy, and changed nearly nothing from the core rules in relation to performance (but does change things in relation to safety of "magic items"). The basic system would be just to change most of the gold rewards into "virtual create magic item gold". And everyone would have the "virtual magic item creation feats", which would use the normal market price values of items as the "virtual create magic item gold" (further known as VG). I'll elaborate a little further with a simple example: Say during an adventure, core rules would suggest giving 3000 gold as rewards during it. Instead, you give out 500 gold and 2500 VG. Our poor (normally) magic item dependent fighter wants a "magical" shield. He had been slugging around with a twohander so far, so he goes out and buys a MW heavy steel shield for 170gp. Then, similar to normal creation feats, he uses 1 day (1000 VG worth of time) to intensely practice with the shield, and adjust the straps and everything just right for him. Then you deduct 1000 VG from him, and allow him to jot down on his character sheet a MW heavy steel shield (+1). In parentheses, because even though it gives all the bonuses to the USER, the shield itself is non-magical. Most permanent magic items would be substituted with this system, and I thought that REAL permanent magic items (and creation feats) would be stuff of legends, talked off in awe and rarely if ever seen in reality. Depending on your wants, you could allow nearly anything, and "follow" item slots too. Add some roleplay/story elements to the creation of the weird virtual magic items, like Natural Armor not being created in a couple of days, but the skin hardening over the course of previous adventures to the point of supernatural toughness for your race. I figured I'd leave charged item creation feats stay, scrolls and wands etc. For those "real" items you'd still need the actual real feats, but could use VG for a proportion of the gold cost (similar to the proportion of gold vs. VG rewards). As for item breakage as the items would not be magic, I figured most of the stuff is character's aptitude, not the items, so for example if the shield broke, you could just buy a new MW shield (of the same type!), re-spend the time required to "create" the magic effect, and voila new "magic" shield. Lots of finetuning on the rules would still be thought up, like does AMF rid you of any of the abilities. And if you had +3 long sword "magic", if you found the legendary long sword +1 of flaming burst, how would they stack or would they? All in all, I thought the idea would bring more oomph to the characters in a big way, than the "Introducing sword +5 flaming burst, also starring Warry the fighter". And it would do wonders on the economic relativity, no more heroes waltzing around with wealths overshadowing kingdoms, and that big war galleon sinking will make you weep like a true captain would. :)
swanyusd 09-06-07, 06:22 PM	This is probably one of the most creative ideas I've heard of. I absolutely love it. It fits so much better with the theme I wanted to go with, that I think I'm gonna steal it and call it my own :) Thank you for this wonderful insight. -Swany
Herodot83 09-07-07, 06:55 AM	Swanyusd, I find your concept quite nice, since I am no great fan of high-magic-item-wielding-superpower-heroes (and never have played a D&D-campaign where the characters got so far *g*). I would have an idea for you to (hopefully) solve your problem (if it's still a problem): Use the D20 Modern core classes for your campaign, but use the normal D&D-monsters just as you like. Your PCs would start with the core classes, giving them much versatility and adabtability, because this classes all grant you a special class-related talent at every odd and a feat at every even level. I'll try to list what about these system would be advantageous for your campaign (as far as I understood your theme and campaign ideas right): - The core classes already have a Defense bonus integrated into their level progression, so you needn't adjust the Defense system from U.A. or make one up of your own. This system does not require your characters to have any magic items to survive. - d20 Modern core classes give you a special class talent (which can be chosen from different talent trees) at every uneven level and a feat at every even level - much customisation possible (you could rule that they can take any general feat instead of only the feats on the classe's feat list). - Your characters will not have the special abilities and high base attack bonus of normal D&D-heroes and therefore will be "weaker", but instead rely more on skills and some abilities that are more suited for a campaign based more on roleplaying and creative interaction with the gameworld than just hack'n'slay. - If you still want to have special abilities like sneak attack (which isn't available with the d20 modern classes), you could create feats that grant this special ability, like the rules in U.A. for the 3 generic classes. - The d20 modern system has no caster core classes, but that's not the big problem. Use the advanced classes from the core rules, so you would have an arcane caster as well as a divine caster (and in additional rules books for d20 modern system, such as d20 Past, or Urban Arcana, there are more advanced classes for spellcasting). The characters only need some skill and feat prerequisites to enter the advanced classes, as far as I know. The caster classes have no spells higher than 5th level, which could also fit your campaign very well. - Characters from these core classes start with no armor proficiency and only simple weapon proficiency - would also nicely fit your campaign, I think. They can gain proficiency with martial (called archaic) weapons by taking a feat. So far, my suggestions. P.S.: Are these d20 Modern core rules ogl content, or am I taken wrong here? Don't know exactly.
Lefty 09-15-07, 09:16 PM	I liked all that enslave humanity and live ina crypt stuff. When you said that stuff about killed all the other races did you mean cats and birds and elephants and such???Really, inquiring minds want to know. About over power under power, if the purpose of your game is to exist as a system then it sounds like your have taken many steps, if you are hoping that the characters will hit level 17 anytime soon and slay this "hated" demon god then you are going to play quite a while. How about this, one outrageous ability, you did say that they would each recieve one (and appearently live as slaves to some for of cosmic undead) so make that special ability HUGE. Big enough to deter its own use. Also, can I personally recommend the game world setting of downtown Rockford. They have it all. Lefty
Mandarbgrim 09-15-07, 09:37 PM	I was reminded of the old Marvel game... Create a seperate Experience pool that can be used to "BUY" magical upgrades that aren't really magical. You just use the Magic System to govern these inspirations..or something like that.