A problem with generic spellcasters [Archive] - Wizards Community

A problem with generic spellcasters [Archive] - Wizards Community

Post/Author/DateTime Post
Mula
03-30-05, 02:11 PM I will run a Dragonlance campaign using the UA generic classes. The spellcaster class will be divided into divine and arcane versions and you won't be able to multiclass between them. The problem is this: Healing magic has always been available only to divine casters in Dragonlance. If Conjuration (healing) spells are only selectable by the divine spellcaster, the arcane version will be weaker. How should I balance the classes, with as little changes as possible?

Both classes will also have a magical focus, which is required to renew spells each day. Divine spellcasters will use their medallions of faith and arcane spellcasters spellbooks; the arcane caster would feel too much like a sorcerer if the concept of spellbook was missing. If either type of spellcaster were to lose their focus, they wouldn't be able to regain their used spell slots.

And in case you're wondering, primal and mystic magic will use psionics (it won't be called psionics; it's still magic).
DM Zoc
03-30-05, 02:25 PM With the limited number of spells known, it wouldn't be unfair to limit healing to the divine. Most arcane casters wouldn't really take them, anyway (especially with a d4 hit die, and the requisite need to wade into combat).

To expand on this topic, it is more a burden than a boon to be able to heal. If you are a divine healer, the party will expect you to heal their wounds, and sacrifice your other potential spells known for this purpose. Many players don't play clerics because they don't want to feel like a band-aid, so I believe that you will still get plenty of arcane casters even (especially) if only divine casters can heal.
HailSpork
03-30-05, 02:58 PM If you're worried about it, don't allow arcane casters access to healing magic.
To be fair, you would probably also make a few spells arcane-only.
Mula
03-30-05, 03:11 PM Many players don't play clerics because they don't want to feel like a band-aid, so I believe that you will still get plenty of arcane casters even (especially) if only divine casters can heal.

I'm sure I'll get plenty of arcane casters. Wizards in Dragonlance are full of flavor. But it just feels wrong that divine casters would be able to choose any spell they wanted and arcane casters wouldn't. That's the problem.

And come on - it's a burden to be able to heal?
Lord Welkerfan
03-30-05, 04:55 PM Take ten spells that could really characterize arcane casters and make them arcane-only. An even simpler solution is to say that any spell that has a person's name in it (Tenser's Trans, Bigby, Etc) is arcane-only.
DM Zoc
03-30-05, 09:04 PM And come on - it's a burden to be able to heal?
Of course, I also say it's a burden to know all of the spells on your class spell list, because then you never know what to prepare for the day.
HailSpork
03-30-05, 09:52 PM That's what the Spontaneous Healer feat from Complete Divine is for.

I wouldn't say it's a burden to do healing spells, but it can be a burden to be the one responsible for it. That's what's great about sacred healing. Too bad it's based entirely on charisma bonus rather than level or such...
Mula
03-31-05, 06:54 AM An even simpler solution is to say that any spell that has a person's name in it (Tenser's Trans, Bigby, Etc) is arcane-only.

That sounds like a pretty nice idea. Although the named spells are somewhat less useful than healing spells, I think this fix will be enough. Or is there anyone who thinks not?
HailSpork
03-31-05, 12:37 PM Personally I think it sounds fine.

The Strength domain has some Bigby's spells, Magic domain has Nystul's Magic Aura and Mordenkeinen's Disjunction.

Anyway, I don't see this as a major loss to divine casters, particularly since these are only domain spells.
caeruleus
03-31-05, 01:10 PM And in case you're wondering, primal and mystic magic will use psionics (it won't be called psionics; it's still magic).

Out of curiousity, how do you differentiate between sorcerers and mystics? Are they psions with different disciplines?
Mula
04-01-05, 07:31 AM Out of curiousity, how do you differentiate between sorcerers and mystics? Are they psions with different disciplines?

First I thought about limiting Psychometabolism and Telepathy to mystics and Psychokinesis and Metacreativity to sorcerers; Clairsentience and Psychoportation powers would have either been available to both or divided between the casters. But this didn't really work because there are a lot more Psychometabolism and Telepathy powers than Psychokinesis and Metacreativity powers.

I've since decided that both "wild" spellcasters have access to all powers, except [healing], which are only available to mystics (but there really aren't that many). Primal spellcasters (or sorcerers) use Intelligence and mystic spellcasters (or mystics) use Wisdom. They also have access to discipline powers but not psychic warrior powers. However, their power progression is similar to that of the generic spellcaster, so 3rd-level spells/powers at 6th level and so on.

Although mystics have access to powers such as energy burst and sorcerers can manifest (or "cast") animal affinity, I think it's ok since official 3rd edition D&D sorcerers and mystics can also cast spells that don't fit the original SAGA concept.
totoro
04-01-05, 06:23 PM If you only give healing to divine casters, you could require that they choose 2 domains (but get no advantages from it) and require that divine casters always prepare the spells on the domain's spell list. So a divine caster who takes the healing domain and the good domain has to prepare a Cure Light Wounds and Protection from Evil as 1st level spells every day. Same thing up the line at each level.

That would penalize the divine casters slightly, but they would still be able to choose their penalty. And you save time by not having to mess with the spell lists.
Mula
04-03-05, 08:53 AM If you only give healing to divine casters, you could require that they choose 2 domains (but get no advantages from it) and require that divine casters always prepare the spells on the domain's spell list. So a divine caster who takes the healing domain and the good domain has to prepare a Cure Light Wounds and Protection from Evil as 1st level spells every day. Same thing up the line at each level.

That would penalize the divine casters slightly, but they would still be able to choose their penalty. And you save time by not having to mess with the spell lists.

Generic spellcasters don't prepare spells - they're spontaneous casters.

Unfortunately domains are out, unless you take a prestige class that gives you one. In that case, you'll get the granted power automatically and can choose spells known from the domain list, which is useful only if you're a divine caster and the domain has at least one named spell.

Anyhow, limiting Conjuration (healing) spells to divine casters and named spells to arcane casters is hardly a major mess-up with the spell lists. After all, generic spellcasters have a very limited number of spells known.

Post/Author/DateTime	Post
Mula 03-30-05, 02:11 PM	I will run a Dragonlance campaign using the UA generic classes. The spellcaster class will be divided into divine and arcane versions and you won't be able to multiclass between them. The problem is this: Healing magic has always been available only to divine casters in Dragonlance. If Conjuration (healing) spells are only selectable by the divine spellcaster, the arcane version will be weaker. How should I balance the classes, with as little changes as possible? Both classes will also have a magical focus, which is required to renew spells each day. Divine spellcasters will use their medallions of faith and arcane spellcasters spellbooks; the arcane caster would feel too much like a sorcerer if the concept of spellbook was missing. If either type of spellcaster were to lose their focus, they wouldn't be able to regain their used spell slots. And in case you're wondering, primal and mystic magic will use psionics (it won't be called psionics; it's still magic).
DM Zoc 03-30-05, 02:25 PM	With the limited number of spells known, it wouldn't be unfair to limit healing to the divine. Most arcane casters wouldn't really take them, anyway (especially with a d4 hit die, and the requisite need to wade into combat). To expand on this topic, it is more a burden than a boon to be able to heal. If you are a divine healer, the party will expect you to heal their wounds, and sacrifice your other potential spells known for this purpose. Many players don't play clerics because they don't want to feel like a band-aid, so I believe that you will still get plenty of arcane casters even (especially) if only divine casters can heal.
HailSpork 03-30-05, 02:58 PM	If you're worried about it, don't allow arcane casters access to healing magic. To be fair, you would probably also make a few spells arcane-only.
Mula 03-30-05, 03:11 PM	Many players don't play clerics because they don't want to feel like a band-aid, so I believe that you will still get plenty of arcane casters even (especially) if only divine casters can heal. I'm sure I'll get plenty of arcane casters. Wizards in Dragonlance are full of flavor. But it just feels wrong that divine casters would be able to choose any spell they wanted and arcane casters wouldn't. That's the problem. And come on - it's a burden to be able to heal?
Lord Welkerfan 03-30-05, 04:55 PM	Take ten spells that could really characterize arcane casters and make them arcane-only. An even simpler solution is to say that any spell that has a person's name in it (Tenser's Trans, Bigby, Etc) is arcane-only.
DM Zoc 03-30-05, 09:04 PM	And come on - it's a burden to be able to heal? Of course, I also say it's a burden to know all of the spells on your class spell list, because then you never know what to prepare for the day.
HailSpork 03-30-05, 09:52 PM	That's what the Spontaneous Healer feat from Complete Divine is for. I wouldn't say it's a burden to do healing spells, but it can be a burden to be the one responsible for it. That's what's great about sacred healing. Too bad it's based entirely on charisma bonus rather than level or such...
Mula 03-31-05, 06:54 AM	An even simpler solution is to say that any spell that has a person's name in it (Tenser's Trans, Bigby, Etc) is arcane-only. That sounds like a pretty nice idea. Although the named spells are somewhat less useful than healing spells, I think this fix will be enough. Or is there anyone who thinks not?
HailSpork 03-31-05, 12:37 PM	Personally I think it sounds fine. The Strength domain has some Bigby's spells, Magic domain has Nystul's Magic Aura and Mordenkeinen's Disjunction. Anyway, I don't see this as a major loss to divine casters, particularly since these are only domain spells.
caeruleus 03-31-05, 01:10 PM	And in case you're wondering, primal and mystic magic will use psionics (it won't be called psionics; it's still magic). Out of curiousity, how do you differentiate between sorcerers and mystics? Are they psions with different disciplines?
Mula 04-01-05, 07:31 AM	Out of curiousity, how do you differentiate between sorcerers and mystics? Are they psions with different disciplines? First I thought about limiting Psychometabolism and Telepathy to mystics and Psychokinesis and Metacreativity to sorcerers; Clairsentience and Psychoportation powers would have either been available to both or divided between the casters. But this didn't really work because there are a lot more Psychometabolism and Telepathy powers than Psychokinesis and Metacreativity powers. I've since decided that both "wild" spellcasters have access to all powers, except [healing], which are only available to mystics (but there really aren't that many). Primal spellcasters (or sorcerers) use Intelligence and mystic spellcasters (or mystics) use Wisdom. They also have access to discipline powers but not psychic warrior powers. However, their power progression is similar to that of the generic spellcaster, so 3rd-level spells/powers at 6th level and so on. Although mystics have access to powers such as energy burst and sorcerers can manifest (or "cast") animal affinity, I think it's ok since official 3rd edition D&D sorcerers and mystics can also cast spells that don't fit the original SAGA concept.
totoro 04-01-05, 06:23 PM	If you only give healing to divine casters, you could require that they choose 2 domains (but get no advantages from it) and require that divine casters always prepare the spells on the domain's spell list. So a divine caster who takes the healing domain and the good domain has to prepare a Cure Light Wounds and Protection from Evil as 1st level spells every day. Same thing up the line at each level. That would penalize the divine casters slightly, but they would still be able to choose their penalty. And you save time by not having to mess with the spell lists.
Mula 04-03-05, 08:53 AM	If you only give healing to divine casters, you could require that they choose 2 domains (but get no advantages from it) and require that divine casters always prepare the spells on the domain's spell list. So a divine caster who takes the healing domain and the good domain has to prepare a Cure Light Wounds and Protection from Evil as 1st level spells every day. Same thing up the line at each level. That would penalize the divine casters slightly, but they would still be able to choose their penalty. And you save time by not having to mess with the spell lists. Generic spellcasters don't prepare spells - they're spontaneous casters. Unfortunately domains are out, unless you take a prestige class that gives you one. In that case, you'll get the granted power automatically and can choose spells known from the domain list, which is useful only if you're a divine caster and the domain has at least one named spell. Anyhow, limiting Conjuration (healing) spells to divine casters and named spells to arcane casters is hardly a major mess-up with the spell lists. After all, generic spellcasters have a very limited number of spells known.