Post/Author/DateTime	Post
Masterful_Norg 03-29-04, 11:42 PM	Some people will say "blasphemer!", or "that's the most retarded idea I've ever heard!", or even "vous étes insensé!", but as true as those statements may be its all irrelavant. Everywhere I've gone I've been told that what I'm suggesting isn't "D&D" because it shoots a few "holy cows". What better place than a forum about a book that shoots almost every D&D holy cow, to ask for constructive oppinions on this particular idea. Don't even suggest that I go play GURPS! There isn't a chance in hell of me spending my money on anything other than the 3.5 Psionics Handbook and the Eberron source books. Let's give it a name shall we? I'll call it the "Level Independant Custom Class System" or LICCS for short. I was inspired to bring this topic up after it had been stewing in my mind. The sources were the custom class Idea presented by NorthSaber, the Totem Barbarians and the variant Monk fighting styles. The premise of NorthSaber's idea is that all class features (such as Saves and CLass skills) have a point cost. Classes are to be made through point buy and ability selection via the generic class method. LICCS gets rid of levels. In LICCS you buy everything with experience points. +1 to a Save, +1 to Base Attack Bonus, a class skill point, a cross-class skill point, an ability, or a feat all have costs. Each one of these things also comes with an inherent listed CR increase. Every time you pay for a new feature you factor your current CR into the cost. Under this system all abilities have prerequisites and it is strictly prohibited to take more than two class features from the same catagory in a row. You may take 2 class abilities from one catagory then your are restricted to taking 1 feature from each other catagory before you may take another two features from the same catagory twice. You get a feat each time your CR becomes a multiple of 3 and a bonus ability score point as usual. Some features like, for instance, the battle sorcerer's ability to ignore arcane spell failure from light armor, are added to the list of features one must pay for before being allowed to take 2 features of the same catagory as a kind of "upkeep". The upkeep experience costs for abilities like that and the Monks ability to add his/her wisdom modifier to AC would have to be individually determined. The Upkeep abilities would always have to be paid for each time around the feature catagory list. What does this system offer? It takes away the structure and security given by the class level progression and makes it possible to create an individualized character that matches one's exact specifications. This is not for everyone which is why I'm suggesting it in a forum about variants. The other point that I realise is that this system is probably overcomplicated for most people's tastes. I haven't yet made an effort to determine the costs for the individual features, but the overall idea is there. Is this system good enough for me to proceed or should I go play GURPS like everyone keeps telling me, because I won't!
Laiqualasse 03-30-04, 12:55 AM	Masterful_Norg, I definitely think that this system has some big benefits to it. As much as I adore D&D and think the system works quite well, there is a nasty tendency for characters to get "pidgeon-holed" not only into stereotypical character classes, but also into levels. I like the generic class variant as a way to be able to invent your own style of playing, but the level system in general seems to lack a certain . . . reality, I suppose. Just a few things: 1. When exactly are characters able to "purchase" these abilities? Is there any training involved? 2. One of the biggest concerns I see right off the bat is that there are just so many bloody abilities to choose from that it would get sticky right from the beginning listing out and finding appropriate values for each ones. Probably a lot of players would be immediately turned off by "over-complication", but to each his own. 3. What about bonus feats beyond the every 3rd level ones? Would those be purchasable, and would they be limited to a specific list? In any case, I really like the idea, and I realize some of my comments may be a little too specific for something just in the concept stage, but there you have it. Keep up the good work. (Incidentally, haven't I seen your name on the WarCraft RPG boards?)
Lina_Inverse 03-30-04, 01:58 AM	you realize that CR is non-linear.IE CR 5 is x2 as strong as CR3.a level system is the best way to incorperate with CR.although i have no personal problem with point systems beyond there inate nessisity to be a min/maxer. why is it i cant just boost spell casting?why do i have to have all good saves,and BAB.charecters will be less specilized in a system with forced bardism,in a team specilization is what you should be doing.
Masterful_Norg 03-30-04, 02:19 AM	Just a few things: 1. When exactly are characters able to "purchase" these abilities? Is there any training involved? 2. One of the biggest concerns I see right off the bat is that there are just so many bloody abilities to choose from that it would get sticky right from the beginning listing out and finding appropriate values for each ones. Probably a lot of players would be immediately turned off by "over-complication", but to each his own. 3. What about bonus feats beyond the every 3rd level ones? Would those be purchasable, and would they be limited to a specific list? In any case, I really like the idea, and I realize some of my comments may be a little too specific for something just in the concept stage, but there you have it. Keep up the good work. (Incidentally, haven't I seen your name on the WarCraft RPG boards?)1. I see what you mean. There is the fact that characters don't take down time at level intervals to gain their new abilities when there are no levels. I would allow a character to accumulate experience points to buy class features, but I would restrict their purchase during any time that they are actively involved in something unrelated to a form of training in a safe environment, such as in the middle of a fight with a balor on a bridge suspended over the caldera of an active volcanoe. There was a time when training was a formal part of D&D, but now it is just assumed to take place while the characters are resting without any thought or effort having to be devoted to it. I might allow a character to spontaneously purchase a class feature with the added cost of an action point. 2. Agreed. 3. Their still there. They are one of the class features and they would not be relegated to any specific lists. Now for your last question. Why yes, yes you have. That's where I started off at being a forum fiend actually. After a while and as my little knowledge of D&D grew I found that forum a little blasé and moved in here where the conversations are much less Blizzard Ent. bashing and a little more inspired. Thank you for posting Laiqualasse.
Lady Ishtar 03-30-04, 02:54 AM	i do like the idea, but it would be a handful.... however as for a system where you buy you abilities as you want them, not as your class dictates take a look at Alternity. while Alternity has levels, those could be removed with a little work. likewise, the classes could be removed as well, in fact my GM removed all the classes and instead lowered all skill costs by 1. i hope this gives you some ideas to work with and i wouldnt wish GURPS on my enemies;)
Masterful_Norg 03-30-04, 02:57 AM	you realize that CR is non-linear.IE CR 5 is x2 as strong as CR3.a level system is the best way to incorperate with CR.although i have no personal problem with point systems beyond there inate nessisity to be a min/maxer. why is it i cant just boost spell casting?why do i have to have all good saves,and BAB.charecters will be less specilized in a system with forced bardism,in a team specilization is what you should be doing.Actually I did realise your first point, CR includes all of the Class features at once, which is why players are prohibited from over loading in any one area and why abilities are given prerequisites to make them accessible around where they would usually be under the old system. I don't know whether you're using min/maxer with a negative or a positive connotation. You can just boost spell casting by spending most of your experience on spell progression, you can even give yourself a double serving when the time to boost your spell casting comes around. However, you're right. I should institute a means to prevent PCs from waiting until they have all the experience they need to purchase the best features in every catagory. It needs to be fixed, despite the inherent dissadvantage of having to wait longer to gain features. This is where NorthSaber's idea comes in handy. Perhaps a character needs to order the class features he or she wishes to have by importance. For example, The thing that's most important to my human necromancer, let's call him Leopold, is his spell casting, then his Will save, then his bonus feats, then his skills, then his hit dice (if you aren't using the injury system, which I love), then his other saves. Now this may not be the case for my new character concept class I call the "dilatant", where I choose for everything to be of equal importance, but therefore of lesser value. I would then have to choose the percentage of my experience that would bleed into each catagory as I gained it. If you don't mind, for simplicities sake, I would make the percentage distributable in increments of 5. I would allow only a minimum of 10 percent and a maximum of 40 percent to go into a single class feature catagory. This means I might still receive a CR increase before another ability has been payed for meaning that its cost would have to be recalculated. Thank you for posting Lina_Inverse.
Masterful_Norg 03-30-04, 03:01 AM	To Lady Ishtar: Where would be a good place to find free specific information on alternity?
Tenzhi 03-30-04, 03:22 AM	It's an interesting idea, but it doesn't really get rid of "levels" (read: tiers of experience) it just hides them better while making character advancement more of a pain in the backside to deal with.
Laiqualasse 03-30-04, 09:41 AM	Another problem I just realized would get messy would be the whole hit die system. Would you just purchase an extra hit die of any kind or would you have to select one at the beginning and rely on it? Oh, and you mentioned class and cross-class skills, but I'm guessing you'd have to use your points to define exactly which were class skills. Oh, and in response to Tenzhi: Well, yeah, you could see it as being just the level system in disguise, but it breaks down the distinction even more between them. For example, in standard D&D, two 5th level fighters, regardless of how close they are to 6th, will be pretty much the same power. In a variant like this, a fighter who just reached 5th-level "equivalent" would be much different from one who had an extra couple thousand XP. Besides, the main focus of this (and correct me if I'm wrong, Masterful_Norg) is to be able to tailor characters to your own desires instead of being constricted by the classes. IMHO it's just the next natural step from generic classes . . .
Millennium 03-30-04, 10:22 AM	You might want to consider BESM d20, from Guardians of Order. Although the "stock" version of the game has levels and classes, they also talk about a classless variant (and even a "classless class", such that the styles can be mixed) which sounds very much like what you want. You might find some inspiration there. But seriously, there comes a point in heavily-houseruled systems when it just plain ceases to be D&D, and you're coming dangerously close to that line.
77IM 03-30-04, 10:32 AM	Systems like this have been made before, multiple times. Google "classless d20" and see what comes up. I agree that this system is tremendously complicated, but that's always the case with classless systems -- they are either complicated or bland. I understand why people might want to get rid of classes (they are somewhat restrictive, no matter how you slice it) but not why you would want to get rid of levels. Such a nice, simple measure of character power comes in very handy -- it's much easier to say, "I'm level 7" than to say, "Well, I've got 21,000 XP, and my base attack is +6, and I have 51 hit points..." In fact, it seems this system just switches out Level for CR. I had a whole alternate system written here but then realized that NorthSaber beat me to it, and in much better detail, on this thread here (http://boards1.wizards.com/showthread.php?threadid=209071)! -- 77IM
Lady Ishtar 03-30-04, 05:17 PM	Alternity is a TSR si-fi game that was published in 1998, out of print now. i beleive you can find the quickplay rules somewhere on Wizards site. another place is i beleive www.Alternity.net the alternity skill system could also work for spellcasting, where spells are treated as skill, and you need certain amount of ranks to be able to use 2nd lvl spells, etc. a spell point system would probably work better than spell slots and as far as HD, they could be replaced with the injury system
theodorik 03-30-04, 07:55 PM	Classless D&D has been my holy grail for 5 years now, ever since I first played 2nd edition D&D and then learned 3rd edition. My first roleplaying experience was with Shadowrun, which is classless by nature and features a d6 system similar to most LARPs. The problem with classless systems is that players abuse the freedom, superspecializing in a single area and giving up everything else. I search everyday for a classless fantasy game, but none have the amount of material D&D offers. Imagine trying to adjust every monster in the Monster Manual and MMII to fit your new system. Imagine all that work you'd have to put in, and your players will still abuse the system somehow. I find my main problem with d20 is the emphasis on XP gained from combat. Shadowrun, for instance, will typically give 15-20% of 'experience' (karma) for combat, and the rest comes from solving puzzles, acting in character, completing the mission, heroism and not killing innocents. Players tend to focus more on the mission than the best way to do damage, because the mission gives more XP. [another side note on Shadowrun, Karma can be spent on anything you want, offense, defense, skills, stats, spells, whatever. Improving your character is a slow process and encourages learning new skills instead of over-mastering just one.] The only other problem I have with d20 is the idea of levels. Players focus on this way too much and it becomes very frustrating to balance NPCs and create a consistant and stable campaign world. "With an average of A xp per encounter, I only need B encounters to level and get C ability." I often wish that all spells and feats were available at first level, (and scaled to be weaker) just so players could START playing the concept they want to, rather than waiting 7 levels before prestige classing. In a classless, levelless system, this wound not be a problem; but D&D isn't meant to be played that way. Its meant to be a system of ridiculous advances in power until you can take 40 stab wounds from a peasant while being tied down and still be at full combat strength when he stops and releases you (there's no punishment for the amount of wounds you carry). So, my solution? Find all published classes, from each Campaign setting book, there are 3-6 new classes to play with. Get Complete Warrior, the Psionics books, and pick up BoVD and BoED. Now... I have access to over 24 base classes (i can still get more) and over a hundred prestige classes. If you can't make ANY character you want from that... your DM won't allow it anyway. I actually very much HATE the level system. I want to design a campaign setting where the words Hit Dice and Level aren't used, where a character can have any skill, feat and spell, and buys them one at a time; where the Injury system is implemented; and where Class and Prestige Class abilities are available like feats. But that would requre way too much work, not to mention converting every current and future sourcebook for use in your campaign. feel free to email me if you have ideas or have worked on a classless system, and I'll show you my work. theo
Illithidbix 03-30-04, 08:08 PM	A friend of mine is currently developing a Classless system based on the idea of tieing skills, feats and class abilities to ability scores and getting a certain number of points to spend on each ability group. Have a look here. (http://groups.msn.com/SBMHeadquarters/roleplay.msnw?action=get_message&ID_Message=4052&ShowDelete=0&CDir=-2) It is still uses Levels and is designed to fit reasonably well into the current framework of D&D. He's currently got a campaign going based on these rules and it's working rather well. However it is designed for sensible role-players who aren't going to deliberately attempt to munchkin, it is fairly "balanced" but does require appropriate uses of Rule 0 (the DM has the final say), and Rule 7 (don't take the :censored::censored::censored::censored: ).
Lina_Inverse 03-30-04, 09:12 PM	Originally posted by theodorik Classless D&D has been my holy grail for 5 years now, ever since I first played 2nd edition D&D and then learned 3rd edition. My first roleplaying experience was with Shadowrun, which is classless by nature and features a d6 system similar to most LARPs. The problem with classless systems is that players abuse the freedom, superspecializing in a single area and giving up everything else. I search everyday for a classless fantasy game, but none have the amount of material D&D offers. Imagine trying to adjust every monster in the Monster Manual and MMII to fit your new system. Imagine all that work you'd have to put in, and your players will still abuse the system somehow. I find my main problem with d20 is the emphasis on XP gained from combat. Shadowrun, for instance, will typically give 15-20% of 'experience' (karma) for combat, and the rest comes from solving puzzles, acting in character, completing the mission, heroism and not killing innocents. Players tend to focus more on the mission than the best way to do damage, because the mission gives more XP. [another side note on Shadowrun, Karma can be spent on anything you want, offense, defense, skills, stats, spells, whatever. Improving your character is a slow process and encourages learning new skills instead of over-mastering just one.] The only other problem I have with d20 is the idea of levels. Players focus on this way too much and it becomes very frustrating to balance NPCs and create a consistant and stable campaign world. "With an average of A xp per encounter, I only need B encounters to level and get C ability." I often wish that all spells and feats were available at first level, (and scaled to be weaker) just so players could START playing the concept they want to, rather than waiting 7 levels before prestige classing. In a classless, levelless system, this wound not be a problem; but D&D isn't meant to be played that way. Its meant to be a system of ridiculous advances in power until you can take 40 stab wounds from a peasant while being tied down and still be at full combat strength when he stops and releases you (there's no punishment for the amount of wounds you carry). So, my solution? Find all published classes, from each Campaign setting book, there are 3-6 new classes to play with. Get Complete Warrior, the Psionics books, and pick up BoVD and BoED. Now... I have access to over 24 base classes (i can still get more) and over a hundred prestige classes. If you can't make ANY character you want from that... your DM won't allow it anyway. I actually very much HATE the level system. I want to design a campaign setting where the words Hit Dice and Level aren't used, where a character can have any skill, feat and spell, and buys them one at a time; where the Injury system is implemented; and where Class and Prestige Class abilities are available like feats. But that would requre way too much work, not to mention converting every current and future sourcebook for use in your campaign. feel free to email me if you have ideas or have worked on a classless system, and I'll show you my work. theo look if you dont want class and levels go play BESM.OK! i dont want to sound rude but just hear me out. you say its harder to balence with levels,sheer falacy its impossible to balence with point system because some people will be stuipid.rpgs are team in nature,anyone who dosent specilize will weaken the team.in any small team in real life you WILL specilize therefore its only realistic a team of adventurers will super specilize.therefore in a point system not min/maxing is stuipid and makes the entire group weaker. my second problem with point systems is the advancement,you never ever advance.your charecters dont grow and dont learn. finally point systems tend to ignore the idea of balence to be "flexible".at least a munchkin needs to be half-way intelligent to be godlike in D&D unlike every point system where not being a combat god is a penalty beyond compare. if you do a pointbased D&D you shouldnt allow every ability to be taken right away,i take lvl9 spell ability.i win.
Masterful_Norg 03-31-04, 12:34 AM	Illithidbix That sounds like a very interesting concept though I don't think that Strength should give familiarity with weapons. In the experience percentage distribution idea a character cannot entirely neglect any single area and only power up another. I intend to make the system so that the most powerful spellcaster one can build is equal to a Wizard and the most powerful warrior is equal to the Fighter except with more stuff to ballance it with the mighty Wizard. This system is designed in order to get those "in between" concepts for which their are no classes. Don't get me wrong. I like levels and classes because they are easy and efficient, but I like this system because of the added customizability.
Millennium 03-31-04, 08:06 AM	Originally posted by theodorik I find my main problem with d20 is the emphasis on XP gained from combat. Shadowrun, for instance, will typically give 15-20% of 'experience' (karma) for combat, and the rest comes from solving puzzles, acting in character, completing the mission, heroism and not killing innocents. Players tend to focus more on the mission than the best way to do damage, because the mission gives more XP. [another side note on Shadowrun, Karma can be spent on anything you want, offense, defense, skills, stats, spells, whatever. Improving your character is a slow process and encourages learning new skills instead of over-mastering just one.] This is a problem with the DM, not with the system. The core rulebooks -to say nothing of the extensions- note that XP can and should be given out for noncombat matters, but many DMs tend to forget this. The only other problem I have with d20 is the idea of levels. Players focus on this way too much and it becomes very frustrating to balance NPCs and create a consistant and stable campaign world. "With an average of A xp per encounter, I only need B encounters to level and get C ability." This is a problem with the players, not with the system. Levels are nothing more than an abstraction; no more, no less. I often wish that all spells and feats were available at first level, (and scaled to be weaker) just so players could START playing the concept they want to, rather than waiting 7 levels before prestige classing. In that case, the solution is to start at higher levels. D&D has an emphasis on taking individual characters through many adventures. First-level adventurers are supposed to be at the start of their careers, or possibly even still in training depending on their ultimate goal in life. If your players are frustrated about "having to wait to play their concepts", then the campaign needs to be adjusted for higher-level play. Of course, by doing this, you miss out on a large part of the point of role-playing games, namely, developing characters in terms of not only abilities, but personality and growth. That's the interesting thing I've found about D&D: A lot of problems that people have with "the system" aren't actually problems with the system, but with how someone has used it in the past. D&D is surprisingly flexible if you know how to use it properly. UE increases this flexibility by a significant amount. Seriously; if you're going for a classless, level-less system, go with BESM-d20. I suggest this particular system for a reason. As I mentioned before, the "stock" system uses a hybrid of class/level and a concept they call Character Points, which you can use to buy any class feature ("Attributes", to use their term), feat, or whatever. In fact, all of the classes in BESM-d20 are really just pre-set ways of spending Character Points, and most classes still give you a few "spare" points every few levels to spend however you'd like. But they have one class, the Adventurer, which has no set class features at all; instead, they simply receive a set number of CP every level, which the character can spend however he likes. I recommend BESM-d20 specifically for this class. It makes for an excellent transition from class-based systems to classless systems, such that you can ease your players into the idea. Start out by switching to this system, and make the players all advance solely as Adventurers; they keep the idea of levels and Hit Dice for now, and let them get used to the idea CP. Then, using the rules they suggest (or something different entirely), remove the Level/XP concept, switching solely to Character Points. Lastly, after the characters are used to level-less systems, you can even remove HP. And who knows? Along the way, you might decide that some aspects of The D&D Way are actually worth retaining. By transitioning, rather than simply doing a complete switchover, you can get a feel for exactly how and why those design decisions were made, and make a truly informed decision about what to do with each one as you slowly remove any trace of D&D from your syatem and make it wholly your own..
mickshrimpton 03-31-04, 09:57 AM	Love the system! I wish Unearthed Arcana had the guts to come up with something like this instead of the half-baked 3-class system they offered. I'd love to see a "you design the class" system and DROP THE LEVEL SYSTEM ENTIRELY!
77IM 03-31-04, 11:34 AM	Originally posted by theodorik The problem with classless systems is that players abuse the freedom, superspecializing in a single area and giving up everything else Yup. Another way of saying this is, it's easier to balance a class system because you can group powers together. The secret to min-maxing is that certain powers are stronger in combination than they are alone, and in a classless system it's often easier to create a character who is "greater than the sum of their parts." I often wish that all spells and feats were available at first level, (and scaled to be weaker) just so players could START playing the concept they want to, rather than waiting 7 levels before prestige classing. It's funny because this feature which annoys you most, I consider to be the greatest strength of a class-based system. Character progression is a central feature of most RPGs and classes are really just a form of "guided" progression. In a classless system, if a person wants to play a super-ninja but the campaign is starting at lower levels, they may be tempted to min-max their character into as super of a ninja as they can get, resulting in a semi-super-ninja of questionable balance and limited depth. In D&D, the same person can simply play a ninjalike rogue -- acknowledging that his character isn't super yet -- but working towards the Super-Ninja PrC. The way I look at it, is that level is a measure of character power. In a level-based system, it's really convenient to say, "oh, this is a 2nd-level character, so of course he's kind of weak." In a levelless system, people don't really have such a good sense of how strong a starting character should be, nor to they really know how long it will take to become powerful, so they try to grab it right from the start. In the end, it is very much a matter of personal preference. Most of the time, I like starting with a low level character (1st-3rd level) and progressing them into "retirement" (level 15+). Some people prefer to start with more powerful characters right away, and advance more slowly. These people should be working on making Classless d20 systems. ;) Back on topic: Check out Mutants & Masterminds from Green Ronin Press. It is a superhero game featuring a classless system, although it still has levels (your level is a cap on most abilities, like BAB and save bonus). The superhero genre is notorious for the impossibility of making classes and for having powerful characters that progress slowly or not at all. It uses the Injury system from UA (and actually invented that system -- check UA's OGL). -- 77IM
riceisnice 03-31-04, 11:42 PM	Alright, so for a class-less/level-less system, you buy all your abilities and bonuses with XP, right? Let's try hammering out XP costs for individual upgrades. Here are my ideas for point values: 200 XP: +1 rank in favored skill 400 XP: Feat 400 XP: +1 rank in non-favored skill 500 XP: +1 saving throw There are other values to increase I'm sure, but that's a place to build from, no? My take on favored and non-favored skills is based on the d20 Call of Cthulhu occupations: pick 12 skills to be class skills, buy those at half the cost of non-favored skills. As far as BAB goes, I think a skill-based combat system would be good, with maybe Melee Combat, Ranged Combat, Unarmed Combat, and Dodge/Parry skills? I dunno, its an idea. Same with HD, I'm thinking for this I'd go with VP/WP. Maybe start with WP and VP equal to your Con, then increase them with the Quickness and Toughness (+3 to VP or WP, respectively) feats? Ideas?
mstrand 04-06-04, 03:32 PM	I didn't read most of this thread, so ignore me if I'm repeating anything. Levels are good, classes are bad. Levels are a great guideline for balancing the game all around. Encounters, equipment, rewards, etc. Classes, even generic ones, pidgeon hole characters. I've been building a system classless level based system. When you create your character, you get X amount of points to purchase the progression you want for what inherent class dohoohicky you want. You pick your BAB, Saves, Defense, Reputation, HD, and number of skill points. Every character gets X number of class skills plus whatever skills they pick up from their background. Each character gets the same starting money. You choose your special abilities when you level up if you meet the prereqs. It's balanced differently than DnD, and I'm still developing a magic system to go along with it. So far it's worked pretty well with the no magic testing I've done.
Masterful_Norg 04-06-04, 09:30 PM	riceisnice Yes! I like the idea where one purchases HP (or VP/WP) with the toughness feat, but I still favor the Injury system.:D The other point to note is that each chosen feature increases CR by a certain amount and that the EXP costs should rise as CR of the character rises. There is a way to determine what a class feature cost should be each level increase. I'll use the fighter as an example. It takes 1000 EXP to progress from lv.1 to lv. 2. The fighter gains 1 feat that level, a +2 bonus to saves (which really works out to about 1.2 bonus if you get the average increase over 20 levels to reach a bonus of 12 Fort, 6 Ref and 6 Will), +2 skill points and a base attack bonus of +1 (I left out the hit dice (cause I don't use 'em) and variants such as class based armor bonus (even though I do use those)); however, he does not gain an extra feat each level after the second level so its much more as if he gains half a feat every level (this truly would be the case if he didn't receive a feat at first level but as he gains more levels the average number of feats he gains each level grows closer to half a feat.) Overall (assuming that a feat or an ability is equal to a +2 bonus, which of course is not always the case) the fighter gains a bonus of +5.2, which I will round down to 5. That means a single point bonus is equal to 200 EXP at first level (the cost suggested by riceisnice for a +1 bonus to a favored skill). This cost would increase to 600 EXP then 1200 EXP etc... One way to test one of these point systems (don't try this one I haven't checked to see if its ballanced) is to break down the Tarrasque or some high CR creature into points and then compare those points to the points of a party needed to defeat it. If they're not around the same number then the system is out of wack and the costs need to be modified, unless you think that a party with the same amount of points as the Tarrasque (all characters with equal points by the way) is more equally matched. I would like to dwell on this longer, but I'm afraid I have some major catching up to do in my schoolwork departement. (Afraid I've been devoting to much of my young life to these forums.) I have just thought of something! :D Rather than using my whacked out CR increasing Idea just make each +1 bonus, or feat, or whatever, after the first, cost more by an arithmetically increasing pattern, much like the way the levels increase in EXP cost. In other words, the first +1 I buy to a save would cost 500 EXP (riceisnice's figure), the next +1 bonus to a save (any save) would cost 700 EXP, then 1000 EXP, then 1400, then 1900, then 2500, then 3200. (Note): I haven't actually ballanced this, so that is probably not the actual cost, considering how many bonuses to saves a level 20 wizard has in relation to how much experience it took him to get them after factoring in the other abilities he has. This system creates a hurtle for players when they just focus on one area. The cost of the abilities they are focusing on will increase so that that they will gain them much more slowly, whereas a person who takes one of each ability each level will have less powerful abilities, but will get them all more quickly (let's call him the dilatente :D). Aditionally one could impose a 20% experience penalty on characters who increase one feature to more than 6 levels higher than any other feature. This means that a character can have a +12 bonus to one save and a +6 bonus to his other saves without imposing a 20% penalty, but any further of a difference and the penalty kicks in! THIS SOLVES MOST MIN MAX ABUSE OF MY SYSTEM! Me so happy! :bounce: :pile: :bounce: :pile: :bounce:
Masterful_Norg 04-08-04, 12:22 AM	Deleted
TieraStarr 04-08-04, 10:57 AM	I don't have time to go fully into it right now, but I have played around with it before - and this is the sort of thing I have done: The following is just to give an idea, and the exact numbers are likely not the best figures. Characters begin with 500 XP to spend. BAB: divided into base (BAB), melee (MAB), and ranged (RAB). For melee combat use BAB+MAB, for ranged combat use BAB+RAB. neither melee bonus nor ranged bonus may exceed base bonus. Base: each rank grants +¼ BAB, each rank cost +20 XP times the level of the rank. Melee: each rank grants +¼ MAB, each rank costs +25 XP times the level of the rank. Ranged: each rank grants +¼ RAB, each rank costs +25 XP times the level of the rank. Thus, a beginning fighter will likely spend 200 XP to bring his BAB to rank 4 (20+40+60+80), granting +1 BAB. One wanting to concentrate on melee combat and ignore ranged combat might instead spend only 135 XP to bring his BAB to rank 2 (20+40) and MAB to rank 2 (25+50). This will give him +½ BAB and +½ MAB, resulting in +1 to melee attacks and +0 (+½ rounds down) to ranged attacks. Saving Throws base (BSav), fort (FSav), ref (RSav), will (WSav). Base: each rank grants +1/6 Base Save Bonus (to all three saves), and costs 5 XP times the level of the rank. fort: each rank grants +1/6 Fort Save Bonus, and costs 5 XP times the level of the rank. ref: each rank grants +1/6 Fort Save Bonus, and costs 5 XP times the level of the rank. will: each rank grants +1/6 Fort Save Bonus, and costs 5 XP times the level of the rank. The number of ranks in any one save (fort, ref, or will) cannot exceed half the number of base ranks. Thus, for saving throws equivalent to a sixth level fighter, you could spend 495 XP for BSav rank 12 (5+10+15+20+25+30+35+40+45+50+55+60) and FSave rank 6 (5+10+15+20+25+30). Skills Each rank in a skill costs 10 XP times the level of the skill. Thus rank 5 in a skill costs 150 XP (10+20+30+40+50). Hit Die Base (bHD): costs 50 XP per rank, grants d4 hp per rank. Improvment (iHD): costs 15 XP per rank, grants either +1 hp per rank, or increases die size by 2 faces if bought at the same time as the base hit die. iHD rank may not exceed four times bHD rank. Example: a beginning barbarian spends 200 XP for bHD rank one (50) and iHD rank 4 (15+30+45+60). Class Abilities Ranks must be purchased for class abilities at the cost of 20 XP time the rank purchased. Class abilities then cost a listed number of ranks. For example: Sneak attack (4 ranks per +d6) Evasion (10 ranks) Improved Evasion (10 ranks, pre-req Evasion) Uncanny Dodge (10 ranks) Improved Uncanny Dodge (10 ranks, pre-req Uncanny Dodge) Wild Shape (2 ranks per use per day, pre-req 10 ranks in Class Abilities) ------------ The hard part is getting the numbers right and working out pre-reqs for class abilities. I just used some easy ones above. ----------- The reason why I abandoned this task is the "frontloading" of first level characters. The +2 good save bonus, background x3 skillpoints, and initial class features (eg paladin divine grace) do not fit well in this system. ----------- Oh, and as for the level limit idea - you should use the XP total to determine the characters level and that gives a limit that can be spent in each area. No more than four ranks in each area per level.
Masterful_Norg 04-08-04, 09:55 PM	T= a+(n-1)d TieraStarr, you must use the arithmetic formula a lot! :D I should note that any formulas for the effects of abilities (such as save DCs or number of uses) that use your level in a system without levels are now changed. In order to increase the level variable in a formula for a single ability by 1 you must spend experience equal to the cost of an additional ability. One of the prerequisites for any ability is number. If you wish to buy an ability that a rogue has at 10th level then you can by that ability after you have bought 9 others, unless of course the ability is available to another class earlier. Another consideration I have made is based on this statement of mine:Aditionally one could impose a 20% experience penalty on characters who increase one feature to more than 6 levels higher than any other feature. This means that a character can have a +12 bonus to one save and a +6 bonus to his other saves without imposing a 20% penalty, but any further of a difference and the penalty kicks in!Henceforth, spellcasting will be exempt from the "any other feature" list for imposing the 20% experience penalty; however, raising spellcasting any more than 6 levels over another feature will impose the 20% experience penalty. Magic rating will fall under the "any other feature" catagory solving the problem of caster level dependent spell effects. Another thing I've noticed is that a character can have as low a quantity of class abilities as 6 when he has a single save of 12. I like this system better and better!:D
Lina_Inverse 04-09-04, 05:57 AM	you should be baseing a point system on barbs or rogues,not fighters.fighters are the weakest class in the game. instead of useing no levels,ill suggest it again.use points per level this makes it easier to calculate CRs and makes it classless still.or do points per 1000exp use the unearthed arcana rules for flat exp rates,and then assign ever 1000set a exp value,that should be quite fair. also i suggest a automatic 4+intmod skillpoints at spefic points,just so people dont never take skills to become stronger.
NorthSaber 04-09-04, 06:44 AM	Originally posted by theodorik The problem with classless systems is that players abuse the freedom, superspecializing in a single area and giving up everything else. Amen. Before I came up with the "make your own class" system I had played around in my head with the "no levels" concept as well, being a Gurps afficionado. However, the issue theodorik raised is the one I also encountered - there would have to be a tremendous amount of kludging to stop superspecializing. For example, if a wizard can ignore his BAB and Fort and Ref saves to get higher level spells twice as fast, he's gaining a LOT more than what he's giving up. It's a bit like the flaw system - people WILL put less points into the areas they don't really need anyway, and emphasize the areas they're already strong in. Imagine a cleric that chooses not to take any BAB (or as little as possible), knowing he can cast Divine Power soon enough. Provided there is some mechanism that prevents superspecializing (or nearly any specializing for that matter - getting 3rd level wizard spells before approximate character level 5 is already pretty scary), I'm worried the system will become too cumbersome to handle. Plus, you can never really get rid of some of DnD's innate flaws, such as the odd inability to learn some skills, or that a 50-year old sage devoted to history (who just happens to be level 1) can't have more than 4 ranks in Knowledge: History, while a 2nd level junior apprentice to some wizard can surpass his knowledge. Also, if given the choice, people will climb to the most advantageous points in their development (such as BAB +6 or +11) and then focus somewhere else for a while. I'm not sure if this is a problem, but it may lead to temporary imbalance in some areas. Well, let's just say that if you can pull this system off without it being more of a headache than the level-and-class-based default system, I'll be very impressed.
Lina_Inverse 04-09-04, 06:51 AM	Originally posted by NorthSaber Plus, you can never really get rid of some of DnD's innate flaws, such as the odd inability to learn some skills, or that a 50-year old sage devoted to history (who just happens to be level 1) can't have more than 4 ranks in Knowledge: History, while a 2nd level junior apprentice to some wizard can surpass his knowledge. i find it hard to believe a 50year old man is only lvl1,searching up hard history questins must grant some exp.as will interacting with general life problems.a 15yearold is lvl1 if you stayed level one for 35 years you deserve it.
77IM 04-09-04, 12:53 PM	OK, here is my take on a simple classless system. Advancement occurs through spending Improvement Points (IP). The DM can give these out directly or can tie them to XP or levels or whatever, it's not important. Spending one IP gets you one of the following: +1 BAB +1 to one save 1 feat 4 + Int mod skill points (all skills are class skills) 1d4 + Con mod hit points 1 new spell known, of any level you can cast (all spells are on your class spell list). 1 spell slot of any level you can cast. You can't ever have a spell level with more spell slots than the level below it (for example, you can't have 5 9th-level slots and only 4 8th-level slots). Everyone is a spontaneous caster. Some special abilities, like uncanny dodge, evasion, +10 feet fast movement, woodland stride, trackless step, wild empathy, each type of bardic music (provided you meet the Perform requirements), aura of courage, smite, favored enemy. An improvement to some special abilities, like +1d6 sneak attack, improved flurry / greater flurry, increase to unarmed damage die, favored enemy +2, animal companion or special mount improves. Use a special ability, like rage, wild shape, smite evil, or bardic music, once more per day. Spending two IP gets you one of the following: +1 ability score 8 + Int mod skill ranks 1d8 + Con mod hit points +1 caster level. This doesn't automatically get you spell slots or spells known, which must be bought separately, but does increase your highest castable spell level (which is equal to (caster level + 1) / 2). Certain more expensive special abilities, like rage, wild shape, sneak attack +1d6, flurry of blows, unarmed combat 1d6 (as a monk), Wis bonus to AC when unarmored (as a monk), divine grace, animal companion, special mount, turning undead. Improvement to some really expsensive special abilities, like +1 bonus to AC when unarmored, greater rage, tireless rage, wild shape (large, tiny, huge, etc.). Spending three IP gets you: 1d12 + Con mod hit points Initial spellcasting ability. Pick an ability score to base your spellcasting around. You start with caster level 1 and zero spell slots/spells known. Certain really expensive special abilities like spell resistance and a few others, I haven't really thought about this much. Maybe some PrC abilities fall into this category. Maximums: (Optional -- this requires the system to have some notion of "levels") BAB: Your level. Saves: 1/2 your level, +2. Skill ranks: Your level +3. In addition, you can only buy the skill ranks option once per level. If you want more skills, buy the 2-IP option instead of the 1-IP option. Hit die: You can only buy 1 hit die per level, hence the three different hit die options. Caster level: Your level. Feats: 1 per level. Ability scores: 1 per four levels. Special abilities: Look at the corresponding class that the abilities come from. You can't gain an ability earlier than the equivalent class (for example, wild shape is 5th level at the earliest) or better than the equivalent class (for example, sneak attack +2d6 requires 3rd level), but you can get it more times per day than the equivalent class (for example, you could rage 5 times a day at 1st level if you really felt like it). Other things, like spell slots and spells known, don't have maximums. Minimums: (Optional -- this requires the system to have some notion of "levels") BAB: 1/2 your level is free. You can only purchase with IP a max of 1/2 your level (rounded up), and this stacks with the free BAB. Saves: 1/3 your level is free. You can purchas with IP a max of 2 + 2/3 your level, which stacks with the free saves. Skills: You get 2 + Int mod skills per level. If you buy more skill ranks with IP, you don't get your Int mod again. Hit die: You get 1d4 + Con mod hit die at each level. You can trade this for a larger hit die by spending IP (1d8 = 1 IP, 1d12 = 2 IP), but only apply your Con mod once per level, regardless. Ability scores: 1 free per 4 levels. You can't buy them with IP any more. Feats: 1 free per 3 levels. You can buy with IP a max of 2/3 your level. As an alternative to the Maximums and Minimums mentioned above, you could implement something similar to the Fuzion system's "Rule of X," in which a relatively simple calculation provides you with a measure of character strength. Here's my example Rule of X. Calculate some X in each of the following areas. Combat: Your base attack bonus or 1/10 your hit points or your number of combat-related feats and special abilities (such as sneak attack or Wisdom bonus to AC), whichever is highest. Saves: Total your three saves, plus 1 for each effect-resistant power you have such as evasion, mettle, energy resistance, or spell resistance. Divide the whole lot by 2. Skills: Your total skill ranks divided by 20. Spellcasting: Your caster level.Then, decide what "average X" and "max X" each player should have. For example, a mid-"level" character might have an Average X of 5 and a Max X of 10. The goal of this system is to reduce the amount of large numbers involved. Unfortunately the side effect is that abilities are priced more coarsely grained. Special abilities could be priced with half an IP, I suppose (like 1.5 IP gets you 6 skill points or 1d6 hit die, 2.5 IP gets you 1d10 hit die). Also, the relative ability pricing is totally off the top of my head. I haven't actually tried to rebuild the classes with this system. How often should the DM give out IP? Gradually, or at each level? How many per level? Are there even "levels?" All of these are up to the DM. -- 77IM, some day will use linear algebra to calculate relative class ability costs as a series of multiple equations with multiple variables.
Masterful_Norg 04-09-04, 01:47 PM	Originally posted by NorthSaber Also, if given the choice, people will climb to the most advantageous points in their development (such as BAB +6 or +11) and then focus somewhere else for a while. I'm not sure if this is a problem, but it may lead to temporary imbalance in some areas. For me this is not a problem. It is a player's problem. I can fix the 50 yr old lv. 1 sage problem by just choosing to level up his skills despite the 20% experience penalty. I would give exp for the trials of a scholar most deffinitely. To 77IM, Good job buddy! looks like you're off to a good start.
Lina_Inverse 04-09-04, 03:49 PM	Originally posted by Masterful_Norg For me this is not a problem. It is a player's problem. I can fix the 50 yr old lv. 1 sage problem by just choosing to level up his skills despite the 20% experience penalty. I would give exp for the trials of a scholar most deffinitely. To 77IM, Good job buddy! looks like you're off to a good start. hmmm is was noteing in normal D&D,i agree much simpler with your system.:D
Masterful_Norg 04-09-04, 04:01 PM	Thanks!:D
Masterful_Norg 04-11-04, 02:50 PM	Time for me to post some values. BAB +2 = 500 EXP at first level Series formula: S = (n / 2) * [2a + (n-1) * d] S=Experience cost of feature a=500 n=level of feature d=100 Save bonus +1 = 300 EXP at first level Series formula: S = (n / 2) * [2a + (n-1) * d] S=Experience cost of feature a=300 n=level of feature d=100 Ability = 200 EXP at first level Series formula: S = (n / 2) * [2a + (n-1) * d] S=Experience cost of feature a=200 n=level of feature d=100 4 + (int mod) x4 at first level = (skillpoints/4)*100 EXP Series formula: S = (n / 2) * [2a + (n-1) * d] S=Experience cost of feature a=100 n=level of feature d=100 Magic Rating =300 EXP at first level Series formula: S = (n / 2) * [2a + (n-1) * d] S=Experience cost of feature a=300 n=level of feature d=100 Class Armor Bonus = 300 EXP at first level Series formula: S = (n / 2) * [2a + (n-1) * d] S=Experience cost of feature a=300 n=level of feature d=100 +1 X level spell slot = 200*(X+1) EXP at first level Series formula: S = (n / 2) * [2a + (n-1) * d] S=Experience cost of feature a=200*(X+1) n=level of feature d=100 4 weapon groups at first level. Feats = 300 EXP at first level Series formula: S = (n / 2) * [2a + (n-1) * d] S=Experience cost of feature a=300 n=level of feature d=100
Wil_Hyral 04-11-04, 04:12 PM	This idea certainly isn't new, nor new to D&D but I think this entire thread would have more validity in the d20 thinktank forum or something more along that line. Unearthed Arcana forum isn't just some place for all homebrew / variant rules; it's supposed to be narrowed down to materials derrived from the book of the same name. Now, to play along... Looks like you're onto something. I've never found a level system to be as realistic as levelless ones (such as WEG Star Wars or BESM sadly). But I'm not usually after realism, and calling levels a Holy Cow is almost an understatement. Good luck, whatever you end up doing.
Masterful_Norg 04-11-04, 10:45 PM	I'll try over there as well.
Feoras 05-05-04, 12:44 PM	For anyone still interested, you might look at Mutants and Masterminds by Green Ronin Press. It is classless sustem, but it is based on the d20 OGL. Hopefully, it might be the best of both worlds. They are releasing two fastasy settings for it. One is based on an independent writer's work and another is based on Games Workshop's Warhammer Fantasy world. So, the system can be used for fantasy settings. For someone that can't wait, the biggest part of the work of creating your own campaign or using it with GW or FR would be: translating spells, monsters and items, creating player guidelines, deciding how to handle wealth, and getting used to to the difference between the two systems. Various people have already posted coversions on the M&M message boards.
GreyLord 05-05-04, 02:54 PM	You guys know that there was a system based on points already in 1e which was abandoned at 2e basically...though they came out with a shoddy skill buy item in 2e option books which was adapted to the 3e skills and powers iconology now. In 1e Greyhawk a 0 level character idea was set forth, in which you start off at 0 level with so many points (I'd have to look it up and since I don't want to now...). You could choose to study whatever you so desired, and gain abilities by spending so many points on the skill to attain it. Oh wait...this is a 3e board...so I suppose it's all new to newbs... :angel: In truth to tell, without mocking people...It was a system of interest, much more classless than other D&D rules, though one (unless the DM drew it out to extend to higher powered characters, which is completely possible) would eventually be able to get to 1st level in a class. The advantage would be that they might still retain other skills they learned whilst studying in other classes, such as a fighter casting spells...etc. It was old style D&D though, and the books are harder to come by. I wasn't a fan of the zero level system myself. Plus it was in that grey transition arena timezone between 1e and 2e. It's found in a sourcebook called GreyHawk Adventures.
Degobah 05-06-04, 04:05 AM	In all seriousness, if you're going to take D & D, remove classes, remove levels you basically end up playing GURPs. You'd probably find it easier to design a new system using GURPS as the base and adding D & D class features, feats, etc. than you would starting with D & D and tearing out its basic features and progressions, without which it can't balance.
Feoras 05-06-04, 06:50 PM	Well, D&D has already diminished the role of classes so much already with the changes to multi-classing. Back when you were locked into a class or multi-class in 1st (and 2nd edition to some extent), the class really defined the character. Now, a player may be a Fighter 4, Rogue 3 and Cleric 5. Hmmm, what do you exactly call him witout being too meta-game-ish? You start noticing the title of adventurer being a common choice when describing them. When it comes to levels, M&M just removed a step. In D&D you get exp which gives you levels at certain intervals which then gives you additional stats, skills, feats and powers. In M&M, exp gives you additional stats, skills, feats and powers. The only "good" thing levels do for a class system is that they make you buy stats, skills, feats and powers in a particular manner. This prevents players from min-maxing to some degree with a point buy system. However, I have seen just as much min-maxing through multi-classing and prestige classes. So, I guess it is a matter of picking your poison. As for GURPs, it has its own set of flaws. While it is good for handling settings that focus on normals, it starts showing cracks when it comes to handling characters that push their stats and powers into the heroic range. It would work for a Lankhmar setting and a Thieves' World setting. However, GURPs would not be my choice for say campaign using Against the Giants. M&M has actaully done that hardest work in designing the framework. The GM job is to flesh it out for different settings. You're not ripping out feats or skills, just levels and classes which may not be all that great of a loss. The odd thing is how much of D&D is tied up in its metagame structure. If you took out levels, classes, universal gold pieces, and the common tongue; would it still be D&D?
Masterful_Norg 05-07-04, 12:46 AM	Well, I just got BESM. I actually like it quite a bit. It's very flavorless, but my players can wip up their own for the abilities and features they buy. In the end I'm going to combine the BESM and D&D systems with one in which I have eliminated BAB and save bonuses and raised the rate of ability score increase. Spellcasting will be reliant on the use of Knowledge (Arcana, Nature, or Religeon) and Spellcraft right from the start and not just at Epic level (I plan to reballance spellcasters with the mundane classes). The maximum amount of ranks for any given skill will be equal to the ability modifier on which that skill relies. Being strong no longer dictates that every part of your body is equally strong. You must designate that your jumping muscles are exceptional by purchasing skill ranks in the jump skill. The amount of points spendable on skills is equal to the ability modifier multiplied by 1/2 the # of related class skills (round up) (performance and knowledge with "all" beside them only count as one skill. The maximum age and age catagories of characters will also be reliant on the constitution score and base land speed will be affected by strength and dexterity. Succeeding a reflex save by 10 will reduce dammage to nothing (same with a fortitude save). This is my homebrew DnD project.