Post/Author/DateTime	Post
Kintara 03-03-05, 03:05 AM	One thing that's bothered me a little about the D&D system is that skills tend to seem to overpower the ability score bonus after a while. You can receive a +23 bonus from skill ranks, but an ability score rarely goes over +10, on a permanent basis. What if each ability score affected max ranks in a skill? Normally, max ranks is simply determined by class level/HD, but what if it varied depending on talent as well? Let's say Max Skill Ranks in class skills would equal Class Level + 2 + Ability Score Bonus. So a first level Rogue with a 16 Dex would have a maximum of 6 ranks in Hide and Move Silently (and any other Dex based skills). If you lose points in an ability score for some reason, then you lose the use of an appropriate number of ranks as well, until the score is recovered. So, on the plus side, you can really shine when you are talented in a skill, but you are also more harshly penalized for losing said talent. Clearly, this might impact the entrance requirements of some Prestige Classes. One way to balance this is somewhat harsh. If they lose access to the right number of ranks, then they cease to have the prerequisites, and that means that he loses his class abilities until he qualifies again. I just pulled the formula out of my ass, so perhaps there's a better one. I'll think about it some more. What I like about it is that it makes a certain amount of sense to me. I think it reflects a certain truth about talent in that talent not only makes you gifted, but makes you capable of greater achievement in the long term, as well. Hmm, perhaps formula should be more even, like Class Level + 3 + (1/2 * Ability Modifier). Or maybe it would be better if it was (Class Level + 2*Ability Mod)/2 + 3.... This wouldn't really affect the number of skill points you receive, just where they can go. Cross Class skills would simply be maxed at half the Class Skill number (rounded down to the nearest 1/2 rank).
Kem 03-03-05, 06:02 AM	Another issue is that it means that maxing out an ability score lets you have an obscene skill check. Your example would have a 42 base Hide/Move Silently check.
Lina_Inverse 03-03-05, 11:45 AM	a +4 to a skill is always a 20% higher chance to succed,thats the genius of d20.
Kintara 03-03-05, 11:58 AM	a +4 to a skill is always a 20% higher chance to succed,thats the genius of d20.I realize that your ability score can make a difference, but it doesn't change the fact that skill supplies far more of your oomph by the end than ability scores. I think it makes sense to build them in such a way that they synergize and compliment eachother more readily. -- And, yes, it does allow for larger skill bonuses. I'll need to think about what kind of numbers I want to be easily acvhievable.
Arcade 03-03-05, 12:38 PM	Skill points only supply that much more of a difference against people of different levels or skill maximums. When you are comparing skills between similar ECL characters, ability scores make all the difference in the world. Example, take a 1st level ranger trying to spot a 1st level rogue and they both max out their respective skills. Both human with no other adjustments besides their ability scores. The ranger has 12 Wisdom and the rogue has 18 dex. So the ranger's spot is +5 and the rogue's hide is +8 - the rogue has a 3 point bonus and will succeed on hiding from the ranger 65% of the time. Now go up 10 levels and assume that the only thing changed is the skill levels- they are still maxed out. The ranger has +15 spot and the rogue has +18 hide. Their ability scores are a very small part of their total ranks. However, they are also the only distinguishing factor between their scores- the rogue still has a 3 point bonus and will succeed on hiding 65% of the time. No matter how much the skill levels outweigh the ability scores, ability scores will always play the deciding factor between equivalent level characters. This is why ability score bonuses, racial bonuses, synergy bonuses, and skill raising feats are so worthwhile- they are the only way to get any advantage over other equivalent level opponents.
Kintara 03-03-05, 01:57 PM	I know how ability scores can affect your skills, and what they can mean against characters of equal level (though this doesn't always hold true). It doesn't change the fact that skills end up supplying +23, and ability scores give that "extra bump" of +3 to +12 (let's say). I'd like for talent to affect skill checks more profoundly as you level, or at least to explore the concept. Edit: Hmm, I think I like (Class Level + 2*Ability Mod)/2 + 3, the best. It's too harsh, though.
Drachasor 03-03-05, 02:16 PM	I don't think this is a good idea, because it breaks the game balance of skills. Strip all other rationals away, and the main problem is that. It will make rogues too good at hiding unless someone with max wisdom has spot as a class skill and maxed their spot...Druids only, basically. The end result will be that it isn't worth spending ranks in skills that use less than excellent stats, since those skills will be wholly nerfed against an opponent that has good stats in the related area. Training and practice account for a lot more than this, and again, it just screws the game balance over. -Drachasor
ArochanoX 03-03-05, 02:27 PM	Adding the same ability twice is always a bad idea.. If you want a different skill system, you could use the following: Max skill ranks for a class skill: Class level + 4 + ability modifier Max skill ranks fo a cross class skill: ½ Class level + 2 Skills per level: 1½ x base value + int So 2 -> 3 4 -> 6 6 -> 9 8 -> 12 It's different, but it has the ability to gain presquites for prc:s faster, but you'd have to spend more skill points.
Kintara 03-03-05, 04:17 PM	Actually, I think I've been going about this wrong. More specifically, I've been looking at it backwards. Maybe Class Skills should be maxed at 4 + (1/2 Character level), and cross-class skills would be simply (1/2 Character level).
Arcade 03-03-05, 05:39 PM	Here's a different method to consider. Maybe what you want to do is allow the ability bonuses to increase as the characters gain max ranks. This would serve to still let ability scores serve their purpose in skills without changing the system too much. The idea would be to let characters have skills as normal. For every 5 ranks they have in a skill, they get an extra +1 bonus on their skill, to a maximum of their ability score bonus. So even with pure natural ability, characters don't know how to use their gifts until trained properly. Most of the skill bonus will still be in skill ranks, but it evens out a little. So the 20th level rogue with say 26 Dex would have +23 due to skill ranks and +12 due to ability. That's about 1/3 due to natural ability and 2/3 due to training. It gives a bit of a boost for high stat characters without unbalancing them at lower levels.
Ashkalzjir 03-04-05, 03:02 AM	IMC, instead of having individual class skill lists, a skill is considered a class skill if the primary attribute is a 12 or higher, cross-class if 11 or lower. the skills still have most of their bonus from ranks, but the ranks are more dependant on the abilities