AC or DR ?? [Archive] - Wizards Community

AC or DR ?? [Archive] - Wizards Community

Post/Author/DateTime Post
McShannon
05-29-04, 01:15 AM Has any one tried a campain using the Damage reduction rules? How well did it work? Did you think it was better? More or less relilistic?
Salla
05-29-04, 08:46 AM It's as abstract as the original system, because hit points are abstract. Realism is overrated, but it does make sense that armor should absorb damage.

It makes a high BAB/high attack bonuses less necessary, because Armor Classes are generally lower, but rewards big damage and makes Power Attack more worthwhile.
Bifford
05-29-04, 02:53 PM It makes a high BAB/high attack bonuses less necessary, because Armor Classes are generally lower, but rewards big damage and makes Power Attack more worthwhile.I wonder what it must be like to be a halfling wielding a 1d4 toothpick.
Nolgoth
06-02-04, 03:15 PM I guess it pretty much sucks. I personally have not used the variant yet, but it does look promising. I have always had a problem with someone with a dagger doing damage to a heavily scaled dragon. But that is just me. The only thing I wonder, which wasn't covered in the book if I remember correctly, is what about AC from force effects. Is the mage armor spell effected by this variant, if so, how? Opinions welcomed.
Xeviat-DM
06-02-04, 07:16 PM Finesse characters would definately require the feat from Draconomicon that allows you to ignore 2 points of DR.
Giarc
06-02-04, 07:36 PM Nolgoth-
Unless it is otherwise ruled by official sources, I would say that the Mage Armor spell would give a pure AC bonus (no DR).
JoAT
06-03-04, 01:51 PM It's not a bad option - I use it combined with the damage conversion rules for my game - anything that's not a physical armor grants only an AC bonus, as far as I'm concerned. It does reward Power-attack people quite a bit, though, so you may want to alter the two-weapon fighting feats a smidge in order to make them competative (don't ask me how, that's something I'm still wondering about meself). Though there is that nice feat Xeviat-DM mentioned, though, in my copy, it lets you ignore 5 points of DR:smirk:
bushido11
06-03-04, 02:22 PM How about this? For every 5 points your attack roll beats your opponent's AC, you ignore 1 DR (or something along those lines). The more skilled you are at attacking (attack bonus) the better you should be at hitting the weak points of the armor or areas unprotected by armor.

This was just a spur-of-the-moment thing, so tell me what you think.
Steelgryphon
07-02-04, 07:44 PM i like it
trotzflocke
07-02-04, 10:16 PM Yeah, nice, but this still shows how much better Power Attack is. :) You can use this, too, to ignore DR. In a way.
Oh, and never allow PrCs like Frenzied Berserker when playing with Armor as DR rules.
riceisnice
07-03-04, 03:48 PM Originally posted by JoAT
It does reward Power-attack people quite a bit, though, so you may want to alter the two-weapon fighting feats a smidge in order to make them competative (don't ask me how, that's something I'm still wondering about meself).
I think the two-weapon fighting style is still balanced. TWF penalizes your attack bonus, but with the generally lower AC of your target, that means you're more likely to hit than under standard armor rules. And even if neither attack does the kind of damage a Power Attack would, it's still two attacks doing full damage. If you do 6 damage and 6 damage against someone with DR 3/-, that's still 6 points of damage getting through.
General Dorsey
07-03-04, 04:06 PM I used the rules for about 6 sessions. We really did not enjoy it at all. Even with the small amount of DR we got (we were low level), we still managed to get killed. I would like to see some other option that will be good for all levels of play.
Glak
07-06-04, 12:52 PM Well as written I don't think it would work too well. However for my upcoming campaign I am using a system that will work out quite well:

All classes have a base defense bonus, just like base attack bonus. Do not use the chart in UA. Instead each class has a defense bonus of 1/1, 3/4 or 1/2. In general give out BDB equal to BAB. For example a figher gets 1 per level BAB, so give him 1 per level BDB. Wizards get 1/2 BAB, so give them 1/2 BDB. For some classes switch it around. Rogues are better at dodging than paladins, so I would give them 1/1 and give the paladins 3/4.

Then for armor I am using damage conversion and damage reduction. In my campaign I am using fairly low numbers but you can just adjust them a little higher. For example chainmail provides DC 2 and DR 1. Breast Plate provides DC 0 and DR 2. So which is better? The chainmail will help you recover after the fight but the breastplate keeps you fighting longer. It makes for an interesting choice.
Neoatomic
07-16-04, 12:35 AM I have been using the DR rules for about three sessions now and I discovered that it is the best for low level characters and didnt help higher levels at all. So I made a chart for DR by level. In this system a PC gains 1 DR for every 3 BAB, so a fighter at level 6 would have a natural DR of 2 plus whatever his armor gives him. I also made it so when using magical armor the bonus applies to either DR or AC which the armor will be specific.

As for soft spots and unarmored places I used an old 2nd edition system from skills and powers. Whenever an attack succeeds in hitting the opponent the player then rolls a d12 for area of attack.
Examples. 12 Head, 11 neck and so on until 1 which is the foot. You can set it up anyway you like but thats what I use. It makes it so the PCs can kill a higher level NPC in one shot, a little more realistic, I have come up with a damage system for it yet but I will have one soon.

Another new system I developed (Completely off topic, sorta) Is a new Action Point system. I made it so that instead of being a bonus to an attack, it is more of a gamble. The rule plays to where all PCs have 4 points and can never have more than 4. These points are given out at DMs discretion. When a player uses a point the player rolls a d30, a roll of 20 is normal crit, 25 is X3 crit plus weapon crit, and a 30 is X4 crit plus weapon crit. So far no one has rolled a 30. We call them Epic Points.

:behold:
Cold Napalm
07-20-04, 05:33 AM The main issue I have with using any DR variants is the power balance of the finesse/fast fighters. I mean the way power attack/strength bonus is done now, it basically screams please use heavy two handed as it is and this basically make that worse.
april151978
08-08-04, 07:38 PM Originally posted by Giarc
Nolgoth-
Unless it is otherwise ruled by official sources, I would say that the Mage Armor spell would give a pure AC bonus (no DR).

Correct... It would be just like a shield (keeps you from being hit, not keeping the hit from being harsh)...
JoAT
08-09-04, 02:47 AM Originally posted by riceisnice
I think the two-weapon fighting style is still balanced. TWF penalizes your attack bonus, but with the generally lower AC of your target, that means you're more likely to hit than under standard armor rules. And even if neither attack does the kind of damage a Power Attack would, it's still two attacks doing full damage. If you do 6 damage and 6 damage against someone with DR 3/-, that's still 6 points of damage getting through.

The problem there is that the two-haned person could be useing a bigger, nastier weapon, and be going the same amount of damage quite easily (12), but end up with a higher end value of 9 getting through to that six. Depending on the exact stats, he might also take a smaller penalty to hit.

One thing I'm thinking of doing is perhaps allowing a 'penetrates DR up to you dex bonus' type feat, useable only with light weapons and certain others (rapier, for instance). Which would only leave the Sword 'n boarder in the dust...
Ranger REG
08-09-04, 03:24 AM Originally posted by General Dorsey

I used the rules for about 6 sessions. We really did not enjoy it at all. Even with the small amount of DR we got (we were low level), we still managed to get killed. I would like to see some other option that will be good for all levels of play.
Please tell me you did not use the "rockem sockem robot" tactics.
Ao
08-11-04, 03:00 PM Originally posted by McShannon
Has any one tried a campain using the Damage reduction rules? How well did it work? Did you think it was better? More or less relilistic?

I use both Defense Bonus and Damage Reduction. It "feels" more realistic IMO. I converted my high level campaign over when I first got the UA, though my veteran players resisted the rules changes at first, they began to pick up on the new vibe and now I doubt that they could remember how to do it any other way.

Post/Author/DateTime	Post
McShannon 05-29-04, 01:15 AM	Has any one tried a campain using the Damage reduction rules? How well did it work? Did you think it was better? More or less relilistic?
Salla 05-29-04, 08:46 AM	It's as abstract as the original system, because hit points are abstract. Realism is overrated, but it does make sense that armor should absorb damage. It makes a high BAB/high attack bonuses less necessary, because Armor Classes are generally lower, but rewards big damage and makes Power Attack more worthwhile.
Bifford 05-29-04, 02:53 PM	It makes a high BAB/high attack bonuses less necessary, because Armor Classes are generally lower, but rewards big damage and makes Power Attack more worthwhile.I wonder what it must be like to be a halfling wielding a 1d4 toothpick.
Nolgoth 06-02-04, 03:15 PM	I guess it pretty much sucks. I personally have not used the variant yet, but it does look promising. I have always had a problem with someone with a dagger doing damage to a heavily scaled dragon. But that is just me. The only thing I wonder, which wasn't covered in the book if I remember correctly, is what about AC from force effects. Is the mage armor spell effected by this variant, if so, how? Opinions welcomed.
Xeviat-DM 06-02-04, 07:16 PM	Finesse characters would definately require the feat from Draconomicon that allows you to ignore 2 points of DR.
Giarc 06-02-04, 07:36 PM	Nolgoth- Unless it is otherwise ruled by official sources, I would say that the Mage Armor spell would give a pure AC bonus (no DR).
JoAT 06-03-04, 01:51 PM	It's not a bad option - I use it combined with the damage conversion rules for my game - anything that's not a physical armor grants only an AC bonus, as far as I'm concerned. It does reward Power-attack people quite a bit, though, so you may want to alter the two-weapon fighting feats a smidge in order to make them competative (don't ask me how, that's something I'm still wondering about meself). Though there is that nice feat Xeviat-DM mentioned, though, in my copy, it lets you ignore 5 points of DR:smirk:
bushido11 06-03-04, 02:22 PM	How about this? For every 5 points your attack roll beats your opponent's AC, you ignore 1 DR (or something along those lines). The more skilled you are at attacking (attack bonus) the better you should be at hitting the weak points of the armor or areas unprotected by armor. This was just a spur-of-the-moment thing, so tell me what you think.
Steelgryphon 07-02-04, 07:44 PM	i like it
trotzflocke 07-02-04, 10:16 PM	Yeah, nice, but this still shows how much better Power Attack is. :) You can use this, too, to ignore DR. In a way. Oh, and never allow PrCs like Frenzied Berserker when playing with Armor as DR rules.
riceisnice 07-03-04, 03:48 PM	Originally posted by JoAT It does reward Power-attack people quite a bit, though, so you may want to alter the two-weapon fighting feats a smidge in order to make them competative (don't ask me how, that's something I'm still wondering about meself). I think the two-weapon fighting style is still balanced. TWF penalizes your attack bonus, but with the generally lower AC of your target, that means you're more likely to hit than under standard armor rules. And even if neither attack does the kind of damage a Power Attack would, it's still two attacks doing full damage. If you do 6 damage and 6 damage against someone with DR 3/-, that's still 6 points of damage getting through.
General Dorsey 07-03-04, 04:06 PM	I used the rules for about 6 sessions. We really did not enjoy it at all. Even with the small amount of DR we got (we were low level), we still managed to get killed. I would like to see some other option that will be good for all levels of play.
Glak 07-06-04, 12:52 PM	Well as written I don't think it would work too well. However for my upcoming campaign I am using a system that will work out quite well: All classes have a base defense bonus, just like base attack bonus. Do not use the chart in UA. Instead each class has a defense bonus of 1/1, 3/4 or 1/2. In general give out BDB equal to BAB. For example a figher gets 1 per level BAB, so give him 1 per level BDB. Wizards get 1/2 BAB, so give them 1/2 BDB. For some classes switch it around. Rogues are better at dodging than paladins, so I would give them 1/1 and give the paladins 3/4. Then for armor I am using damage conversion and damage reduction. In my campaign I am using fairly low numbers but you can just adjust them a little higher. For example chainmail provides DC 2 and DR 1. Breast Plate provides DC 0 and DR 2. So which is better? The chainmail will help you recover after the fight but the breastplate keeps you fighting longer. It makes for an interesting choice.
Neoatomic 07-16-04, 12:35 AM	I have been using the DR rules for about three sessions now and I discovered that it is the best for low level characters and didnt help higher levels at all. So I made a chart for DR by level. In this system a PC gains 1 DR for every 3 BAB, so a fighter at level 6 would have a natural DR of 2 plus whatever his armor gives him. I also made it so when using magical armor the bonus applies to either DR or AC which the armor will be specific. As for soft spots and unarmored places I used an old 2nd edition system from skills and powers. Whenever an attack succeeds in hitting the opponent the player then rolls a d12 for area of attack. Examples. 12 Head, 11 neck and so on until 1 which is the foot. You can set it up anyway you like but thats what I use. It makes it so the PCs can kill a higher level NPC in one shot, a little more realistic, I have come up with a damage system for it yet but I will have one soon. Another new system I developed (Completely off topic, sorta) Is a new Action Point system. I made it so that instead of being a bonus to an attack, it is more of a gamble. The rule plays to where all PCs have 4 points and can never have more than 4. These points are given out at DMs discretion. When a player uses a point the player rolls a d30, a roll of 20 is normal crit, 25 is X3 crit plus weapon crit, and a 30 is X4 crit plus weapon crit. So far no one has rolled a 30. We call them Epic Points. :behold:
Cold Napalm 07-20-04, 05:33 AM	The main issue I have with using any DR variants is the power balance of the finesse/fast fighters. I mean the way power attack/strength bonus is done now, it basically screams please use heavy two handed as it is and this basically make that worse.
april151978 08-08-04, 07:38 PM	Originally posted by Giarc Nolgoth- Unless it is otherwise ruled by official sources, I would say that the Mage Armor spell would give a pure AC bonus (no DR). Correct... It would be just like a shield (keeps you from being hit, not keeping the hit from being harsh)...
JoAT 08-09-04, 02:47 AM	Originally posted by riceisnice I think the two-weapon fighting style is still balanced. TWF penalizes your attack bonus, but with the generally lower AC of your target, that means you're more likely to hit than under standard armor rules. And even if neither attack does the kind of damage a Power Attack would, it's still two attacks doing full damage. If you do 6 damage and 6 damage against someone with DR 3/-, that's still 6 points of damage getting through. The problem there is that the two-haned person could be useing a bigger, nastier weapon, and be going the same amount of damage quite easily (12), but end up with a higher end value of 9 getting through to that six. Depending on the exact stats, he might also take a smaller penalty to hit. One thing I'm thinking of doing is perhaps allowing a 'penetrates DR up to you dex bonus' type feat, useable only with light weapons and certain others (rapier, for instance). Which would only leave the Sword 'n boarder in the dust...
Ranger REG 08-09-04, 03:24 AM	Originally posted by General Dorsey I used the rules for about 6 sessions. We really did not enjoy it at all. Even with the small amount of DR we got (we were low level), we still managed to get killed. I would like to see some other option that will be good for all levels of play. Please tell me you did not use the "rockem sockem robot" tactics.
Ao 08-11-04, 03:00 PM	Originally posted by McShannon Has any one tried a campain using the Damage reduction rules? How well did it work? Did you think it was better? More or less relilistic? I use both Defense Bonus and Damage Reduction. It "feels" more realistic IMO. I converted my high level campaign over when I first got the UA, though my veteran players resisted the rules changes at first, they began to pick up on the new vibe and now I doubt that they could remember how to do it any other way.