Post/Author/DateTime	Post
Jc3 03-23-04, 09:53 AM	In the core rules, two doublings actually equal a tripling. Adding Improved Critical to a weapon with a threat range of 20, thus doubling it, results in a threat range of 19-20. If you later applied some enchantment that doubled the same weapon's threat range, you would not threaten on 17-20, but rather on 18-20 because a double doubled actually triples. So, check out this quirky situation: Power Attack states that, "you may choose to subtract a number from all melee attack rolls and add the same number to all melee damage rolls. This number may not exceed your base attack bonus." It then goes on to state in the SPECIAL section that, "If you attack with a two-handed weapon, or with a one-handed weapon wielded in two hands, instead add twice the number subtracted from your attack rolls." It doesn't specifically say that "with a two-handed weapon...instead double the number", it says "add twice." Does that count as a doubling? If a fighter with Power Attack comes along and spends an action point to (as per Unearthed Arcana rules) "double the bonus on damage rolls grated by the [Power Attack] feat" can he effectively get a doubled doubling? Or are we just trying to subvert the rules on account of them being worded differently in this one section? Let's say our hypothetical fighter has a BAB of +3, a two-handed weapon, and the Power Attack feat. Without any other modifiers, he could subtract 3 from his attack roll and get a bonus of +6 to damage. Could he spend an action point and get +12? Or should that simply be +9 on account of doubled doubles tripling? This is the hot topic in my gaming circle. What is your opinion? Have any of you heard any formal rulings on the matter? Are there other areas of the rules where the words "add twice" or something similar appear instead of "doubled?"
Tigald 03-23-04, 11:15 AM	Hi, Hmm. I think you add twice the number you substract, if wielding a weapon in two hands. And this Number is then doubled. So this would make 12 damage in your example. BUT !!!! I would not handle it so. I would treat it as a tripling. You ask why, because Power Attack is a Feat that can destroy your fun. You add twice the number you substract. This isn't directly a problem, but it can be one. The use of action points in order to improve feats isn't quite balanced. You can modify any spell you want with any metamagic feat you have without any penalty. Maximizing a meteor swarm isn't quite nice, you know, for just one action point. I would limit that(but that's another question)! Allowing such, hmm how to describe it, balance holes in your game, encourage's power gaming. I don't know if you have a problem with your players powergaming, but it seems to me that youre players tend toward such gaming. Why don't answer your question yourself by judging would it be balanced or not. Which answer would be more suitable? Just my opinion Tigald
stone_dog 03-23-04, 11:32 AM	The intention of spending an AP on Power Attack is to bump up the performance of the feat. There is already a class ability called "improved power attack" giving you three times the penalty to hit in damage when wielding a 2-h weapon. I'd definatly rule that an AP spent on Power Attack would give you Improved Power Attack for that single action only.
Jc3 03-23-04, 12:09 PM	Your suggestion of looking to the Improved Power Attack class ability is a good one. I'm not familiar with the ability myself--any idea which sourcebook it comes from?--but I'd be willing to defer to that as the spirit of the rules. I have a sense of what to do rules-wise, but I was curious what others thought. So far, it sounds like the reigning opinion is that we'd be doubling a doubling, thus making it a tripling. I'm also curious what the designer's intention was. It's probably in line with what's been recommended here, but that doesn't stop me from wondering. Thank you for your input!
77IM 03-23-04, 02:34 PM	In general, a doubled doubling is a tripling, unless otherwise specified by the specific rule (and this rule doesn't specify otherwise). An exception is real-world quantities -- if a spell doubles your weight and then another one doubles your weight, you now weigh 4 times as much. But damage is an abstract game mechanic, not a real-world quantity. On the other hand, I think that in this case spending an action point to get a quadrupling is balanced with other uses of an action point. Compare: 1. A fighter with power attack spends a point to go from +6 damage to +12 damage (currently under debate). 2. A fighter without the power attack feat using an action point to get the feat, going from normal damage to +6 damage. 3. A fighter with power attack gets +6 damage, and spends an action point to get an extra attack as part of a full attack, also with +6 damage. In general, I don't think a quadrupling will be a problem, especially with the extra-attack option available. Remember you can only spend one AP in a round, though! -- 77IM
stone_dog 03-23-04, 05:49 PM	Originally posted by Jc3 Your suggestion of looking to the Improved Power Attack class ability is a good one. I'm not familiar with the ability myself--any idea which sourcebook it comes from?--but I'd be willing to defer to that as the spirit of the rules. It is a function of the Frenzied Berserker PrC I am pretty sure, but I can't find my Complete Warrior right now. It is in there anyway.
Jc3 03-24-04, 10:42 AM	Originally posted by 77IM On the other hand, I think that in this case spending an action point to get a quadrupling is balanced with other uses of an action point. Compare: 1. A fighter with power attack spends a point to go from +6 damage to +12 damage (currently under debate). 2. A fighter without the power attack feat using an action point to get the feat, going from normal damage to +6 damage. 3. A fighter with power attack gets +6 damage, and spends an action point to get an extra attack as part of a full attack, also with +6 damage.This is genius. I'm sending this to the DM right away. Thanks very much, 77IM!