Post/Author/DateTime	Post
InsertNameHere 04-06-07, 12:52 PM	Recently, one of my players, after failing a listen check to hear some goblins, asked why he didn't smell them in advance. In an attempt to change this, I am implementing a "Smell" skill for PCs which will allow smelling of strange features and creatures. Any class getting Listen also gets Smell, and they're both WIS skills. - Is this already covered under the rules somewhere? - Is this worthwhile?
calvinNhobbes 04-06-07, 12:58 PM	Well, there is the scent extraordinary ability. I don't think they bothered with a smell skill since humans don't have a very good sense of smell. The human "norm" is kind of used as the baseline since we all know what it is to be human. Several animals have the scent ability to model their "super-human" sense of smell. EDIT: A more numerical example. For a human, if the Spot DC was 20, and the Listen DC was 20, then the "Smell" DC would be like 100 for humans. In other words, if a human didn's see or hear it coming, by the time he smells it, it's probably too late.
RobbyPants 04-06-07, 01:56 PM	I don't know that you need a Smell skill (as scent already exists, like calvinNhobbes said), but you could probaby work with the scent ablitlity. I'd do it similar to the Search skill. Anyone with the Track feat can track using Survival, but anyone without the feat can track using Search, provided the DC is 10 or lower. So what I'd do is allow anyone without the Scent ability to make Smell checks DC 10 or less with a simple Wisdom check. If you have the scent ability, then you can use your Scent skill (modified by Wisdom) to make harder checks. Now, since this acts similar to Spot and Listen, the real question, is what skill opposes it (Cover Odor :P)? It seems somewhat tough to come up with a good skill for this. Perhaps a better solution is to used fixed base DCs. A person's scent would always have a base DC (perhaps 10 to notice a creature, 15 to discover its race, 20 to ID a specific person) modified by other factors. A strong perfume would give you a bonus to notice the creature, but a penalty to actually figure out it's race, or anything else. Just some ideas... :)
CaoSlayer 04-06-07, 04:05 PM	Note, gnomes and half-orcs should get a +2 as noted in their flavor. By the way scent ability is ruled by the survival skill.
Perseus_Stoned 04-06-07, 04:15 PM	By the way scent ability is ruled by the survival skill. Only when it comes to tracking. I think this is a bad idea; if its a horrible smell they should just automatically get to smell it, otherwise its just "normal generic bad smell". You can describe it as the DM, but thats up to you to implement. If the goblin isn't specifically noted to smell, it doesn't.
Gilby 04-06-07, 05:42 PM	Wouldn't that kinda give an advantage to enemies? I mean, you have a large viking that wears full plate armor, like the one that is usually in my party, if he or really anyone else in the party, hasn't bathed for a few days or longer, I think that you would give an awful stench.:yuck:
Xeviat-DM 04-06-07, 06:14 PM	Situations like these point towards why I advocate skill merging; Listen and Spot should be one skill, such as Notice or Perception, so one doesn't have to wonder where a "Smell" skill would fall in. Having a hightened sense of smell isn't out of the norm for an exceptional character. I'm sure a ranger whose spent years hunting goblins will learn the difference between the smell of a goblin and the smell of an orc or a human. Humans, though, have keen hearing and vision (we can "notice" things with these skills), and we have fine vision and touch (we can "search" for things with these skills). Being able to notice things means you will be alerted to its presense at long distances; being able to search for things means you can determine fine details, and, more importantly, target in combat with them (you can feel around in the dark as a move action and attack as a standard if I remember correctly). With our dull sense of smell, we can notice smells, but we can rarely determine the direction the smell is coming from. If you smell a skunk, you know it, and you can identify skunk musk easily (smell is the closest sense linked to the memmory in humans). Certain individuals amongst our own species, especially amongst our hobby, often have unique smells that they bring along with them, and can be identified as them. As for not bathing making one easier to notice with scent, I'll point out that soap would be a very noticable smell for wild animals.
Slayer_5 04-06-07, 06:28 PM	I always assumed that should it come up, Survival covered smell. I know the rules say it is just for tracking with scent, but that is the ONLY nod the rules ever give to smell, so I use it as a baseline. I would rule the Survival for smell wouldn't have an opposed roll. You aren't checking to see if you smell the goblins, you are checking to see if recognize the stench as BEING goblins, as opposed to just generic dungeon filth, or the stinky fighter. That said, when working in security, I had a particular knack at being to smell fire from a long, long ways away. Definately as if I had ranks...
Xeviat-DM 04-06-07, 11:27 PM	Definately. I think Scent would do well to work with DCs and a skill; this would allow us to do away with arbitrary distances for the scent ability. All that would need to be done would be to create a list of common scents, or perhaps set DCs based on the size of the scent emitter, and modifiers for intensity (a skunk has more scent than other tiny creatures, and a reptile has less scent usually). It wouldn't be an opposed check, but I wouldn't be against there being a survival check to reduce your own scent DC, or the scent DC of others. You'd even get a bonus at this if you had the scent skill yourself (easier to tell that you don't smell if you have a great sense of smell rather than just following the rules of masking scent).
Patrick Draken-Korin 04-07-07, 08:24 PM	Another agreement that there could (if not should) be a smell based skill. Think of vintners, or any other profession with a trained nose. Also, a recent issue of Discover (March) provided information on a study regarding human scent. Namely that our nose's are poorer than a hounds, but are in fact useful, probably more than we think. For the Scent (Ex) ability? Simply add a +4 bonus on smell checks. Add the position-finding ability to the smell skill, at a DC of 20 and let Scent possessing creatures do it without a check. Reptile? Requires a free action to stick their tongue out (only possible when mouth in not occupied). Smell should of course be allowed untrained, however restrictions would also be reasonable; maybe no DC limit, but that a creature without ranks can only detect, never pin-point? This is an interesting idea, which I've wondered about for awhile, though I've never actually tried working anything out.
Xeviat-DM 04-09-07, 03:00 PM	I wasn't saying smell should be a skill, I was saying that smell should be tied to a skill. I think Notice should be a skill instead of Spot and Listen, so creatures with keen or accurate scent can have a skill.
tedopon 04-09-07, 06:31 PM	I have taken Listen Spot Search and (Smell) and combined them into Notice (whichever modifier of INT or WIS that's higher is the relevant ability). This skill, and one I call Stealth (combined Hide, Move Silent) each cost 2x. That pretty much means that these skills as Class cost Cross Class. Cross Class ranks in these are 1/4 value, instead of 1/2.
Patrick Draken-Korin 04-09-07, 08:39 PM	Xeviat-DM, I wasn't replying directly to you and claiming agreement. My general take from these various posts was that smell could be a skill, in and of itself, but due to either perceived limitations or just desire for fewer skills all told, many of you think it should be part of a greater Notice skill. Which is why I put forth reasoning for it to be its own skill, without folding the various perception based ones together, something that I'm not in favor of. :embarrass maybe I should have made myself more clear. If you wish to simplify the skill sets, then folding skills together is a good idea. I don't. Instead I just increase the skill points everyone gets and leave things complicated, which is a state that we enjoy. Game Happy.
Krusk 04-10-07, 01:29 AM	id say just go with a wisdom check. it governs the awareness skills, spot and listen, and just explain that there is no way to pratice smelling so you cannot put ranks into it. i would allow the skill item +X to be purchased for it though, if they really care enough.
TheDarkLord 04-10-07, 01:39 AM	I mean, you have a large viking that wears full plate armor, like the one that is usually in my party, if he or really anyone else in the party, hasn't bathed for a few days or longer, I think that you would give an awful stench.:yuck: My friend, Let me introduce you to Prestidigitation, a Must Have when traveling in the company of the fairer sex ;).
Ranger REG 04-10-07, 04:46 AM	I have taken Listen Spot Search and (Smell) and combined them into Notice (whichever modifier of INT or WIS that's higher is the relevant ability). This skill, and one I call Stealth (combined Hide, Move Silent) each cost 2x. That pretty much means that these skills as Class cost Cross Class. Cross Class ranks in these are 1/4 value, instead of 1/2. I prefer Perception as a skill name to cover the above skills (and smelly situations). Then again, it was the Star Wars Saga Edition Preview Article 2 that gave me a glimpse of consolidating skills.
Steely_Dan 04-10-07, 06:15 AM	Situations like these point towards why I advocate skill merging; Listen and Spot should be one skill, such as Notice or Perception, so one doesn't have to wonder where a "Smell" skill would fall in. Exactly, which is why I implement: -Acrobatics (Balance + Tumble) -Athletics (Climb + Jump) -Deception (Disguise + Forgery) -Perception (Listen + Spot) -Persuasion (Diplomacy + Gather Information) -Stealth (Hide + Move Silently) -Use Device (Use Magic Device + Use Psionic Device)
tedopon 04-10-07, 12:31 PM	I prefer Perception as a skill name to cover the above skills (and smelly situations). Then again, it was the Star Wars Saga Edition Preview Article 2 that gave me a glimpse of consolidating skills. Good for you. Sometimes I use the word "Birds" to identify "Geese," considering both words are correct. Now that you've pointed out your Perception of my semantic error, I Notice maybe I should ask my players if we should change the word we've been using for the skill for a year and a half.
Ranger REG 04-10-07, 09:27 PM	Good for you. Sometimes I use the word "Birds" to identify "Geese," considering both words are correct. Now that you've pointed out your Perception of my semantic error, I Notice maybe I should ask my players if we should change the word we've been using for the skill for a year and a half. *Shrugs* Your Campaign, Your RulesTM.
kshade 04-10-07, 09:56 PM	there is no way to pratice smelling so you cannot put ranks into it. Not sure about that, a trained dog can sniff out explosives (and DVDs it seems (http://abcnews.go.com/Technology/print?id=1944531)) even in irritating situations, a normal one can't. Sure, you can't make your nose better but it's possible that you can process the data you get from it a lot better with training, especially if you play an animal-like race. -Deception (Disguise + Forgery) What do those have in common except being used in deception?
inspectr88 04-10-07, 11:52 PM	I really don't like the idea of the smell skill, it'd be like putting in a taste skill. I suppose that's a really bad comparison, but if you put enough ranks into it, it could be pretty powerful, as dumb as that sound. You can prevent people from seeing you by hiding really well, or hiding behind something. You can prevent people from hearing you by not making any sound. You can't hide your smell from someone though, and even if you mask it, there's still some form of smell, so with enough ranks in smell, it'd make spot and listen pretty useless in my opinion. I think the smell is better off left to a special ability, that enhances your sense of smell, like Scent.
kshade 04-11-07, 12:03 AM	You can't hide your smell from someone though, and even if you mask it, there's still some form of smell, so with enough ranks in smell, it'd make spot and listen pretty useless in my opinion. Yep, that's why you'll have to invent some new spells and items if you add a smell skill, like "hide scent" (Dru/Bar 1, Sor/Wiz 2, touch, will neg, suppresses all odors from the target for 10 minutes/level), "fake scent" (Dru/Bar 2, Sor/Wiz 1, short-range, 5 minutes/level, like illusion, only for odors) or "Griblax irritating stench" (guess what) :D
Krusk 04-11-07, 02:07 AM	Not sure about that, a trained dog can sniff out explosives Then trained dogs are allowed to put ranks into it. A dog trained in this way would have spent a feat or something to gain the scent ability.
Steely_Dan 04-11-07, 04:33 AM	there is no way to pratice smelling so you cannot put ranks into it. I've met ex-military (special forces) guys that would disagree with that statement.
Steely_Dan 04-11-07, 04:37 AM	"Deception (Disguise + Forgery)" What do those have in common except being used in deception? They're folding those in d20 Star Wars Saga, probably because they are two pretty obscure/rarely chosen Skills, and folding them might see more use of both.
kshade 04-11-07, 11:01 AM	Then trained dogs are allowed to put ranks into it. Okay, so my Werewolf/Gnoll/Rhinogradentia/Ex-Military-Guy-Steely_Dan-Met PC can too?
Krusk 04-11-07, 01:15 PM	good point, guess it could be a class skill for barbarians rangers and druids?
Ranger REG 04-11-07, 11:11 PM	What do those have in common except being used in deception? There are various forms of deception, just as there are various forms of "noticing" out of the ordinary or misplaced. Personally, I believe Deception should cover Bluff and Disguise skill. But you can make a good argument for folding Forgery into it.
kshade 04-11-07, 11:26 PM	good point, guess it could be a class skill for barbarians rangers and druids? Probably, but definitely a racial skill for those with good olfactoric senses like those that already get the scent feat. Personally, I believe Deception should cover Bluff and Disguise skill. But you can make a good argument for folding Forgery into it. Okay, guess that makes sense from a mechanic standpoint.
Krusk 04-12-07, 12:15 AM	i would say things with the scent ability negate the need for a smell check and auto succeed for all thigns within X foot radius. X = maybe 10-20? or 10ft for medium creature, 5 for small 2.5 for down another size ect. 20 for large. 30 for bigger. ect.
Ranger REG 04-12-07, 03:10 AM	i would say things with the scent ability negate the need for a smell check and auto succeed for all thigns within X foot radius. Either that or they get to reroll their Perception check, perhaps with bonus.
kshade 04-15-07, 05:12 PM	Either that or they get to reroll their Perception check, perhaps with bonus. I'd give 'em a huge competence bonus (10 maybe) on scent-based perception checks. Looks like Psions already can take the scent feat (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/psionic/powers/psionicScent.htm). Oh, and :bump:
Edymnion 04-15-07, 06:01 PM	Just do like most other systems and lump Listen, Spot, Smell, etc into a single skill, "Notice". While you're at it, combine Hide and Move Silent together into a single "Stealth" skill. And roll Open Lock into Disable Device.
Bavix 04-15-07, 06:15 PM	I've always thought Forgery should be a type of Craft skill since forging a document is a type of rendering.
Ranger REG 04-15-07, 09:12 PM	Just do like most other systems and lump Listen, Spot, Smell, etc into a single skill, "Notice". Perception. :P While you're at it, combine Hide and Move Silent together into a single "Stealth" skill. Stealth. What? You got it right. :P And roll Open Lock into Disable Device. :incog: Psst. It's already folded in d20 Modern SRD.
Ack 04-16-07, 08:00 AM	I can't resist ... If an orc has low WIS, how does he smell? Terrible!
SlinkyTWF 04-16-07, 02:58 PM	My solution to this and the other related "Hawk-Eyed and Sharp-Eared, Wisened Old-Geezer" problems was to add "Perception" as a seventh ability score, breaking this concept completely from the Wisdom score. I consider this statistic to be a combination of senses and situational awareness. But my rules set is a near-complete revamp of the basic 3.5 system anyway where 3.5 Spot/Listen skills have been lumped into a "Recon" skill that affects both checks.
TrueGamerOmega 04-16-07, 03:23 PM	While using a smell skill is interesting to do, I prefer to leave it at scent. I just make it automatic if the person is able to smell something. But like many of you I recently thought of the idea of merging some skills. I started by merging Hide and Move Silently into Sneak. But thanks for reminding me of Spot and Listen, to combine them as well. I would think that combining it with one of these merged skills would be the best idea, because if someone trains to notice things then they should be trained to percieve with all senses. Unless you are training to notice with a specific craft(e.g. smelling certain foods, musical ear training), then that would go into craft skills. Although I tend to give these senses automaticly unless the situation is special, like someone trying to hide or they are trying to listen for something. Mainly because, it speeds up the game slightly and I think it makes more sense to not roll out passive perception.
kshade 04-16-07, 07:31 PM	While using a smell skill is interesting to do, I prefer to leave it at scent. I just make it automatic if the person is able to smell something. How do you handle enemies with scent, especially if the PCs don't want to be sniffed out?
Krusk 04-17-07, 01:11 AM	How do you handle enemies with scent, especially if the PCs don't want to be sniffed out? take the feat from libris mortis that blocks against it?
Ranger REG 04-17-07, 03:41 AM	I've always thought Forgery should be a type of Craft skill since forging a document is a type of rendering. I'd file it under Creative or Composition skill [which also covers Craft (writing) and Craft (visual arts)]. There have been some fan projects and discussions about consolidating skills in the d20 Modern rules ... in the d20 Modern forum.
SlinkyTWF 04-19-07, 10:28 AM	I'd file it under Creative or Composition skill [which also covers Craft (writing) and Craft (visual arts)]. There have been some fan projects and discussions about consolidating skills in the d20 Modern rules ... in the d20 Modern forum. I treat it as separate skills. You MUST know what you are doing with the appropriate craft skill to create the item in the first place. Your Forgery skill affects whether or not the forgery is detectable by someone with Appraise skill (and having appraise and the appropriate craft skill gains a synergy bonus to detect the forgery).
Edymnion 04-19-07, 12:26 PM	My solution to this and the other related "Hawk-Eyed and Sharp-Eared, Wisened Old-Geezer" problems was to add "Perception" as a seventh ability score, breaking this concept completely from the Wisdom score. I consider this statistic to be a combination of senses and situational awareness. But my rules set is a near-complete revamp of the basic 3.5 system anyway where 3.5 Spot/Listen skills have been lumped into a "Recon" skill that affects both checks.For the age thing, would it not be easier to simply houserule in penalties to Listen/Spot based on age class? You know, like getting a -1 to Spot/Listen for every catagory above Adult. Since, if memory serves, each of those increases gives you only +1 to wisdom, the net effect of two increases would be +1 from the wisdom boost, and -2 from the penalties, for a net -1. Or increase it to -2 for each catagory, for a net -3. MUCH easier than adding an entirely new stat.
SlinkyTWF 04-19-07, 01:10 PM	For the age thing, would it not be easier to simply houserule in penalties to Listen/Spot based on age class? You know, like getting a -1 to Spot/Listen for every catagory above Adult. Since, if memory serves, each of those increases gives you only +1 to wisdom, the net effect of two increases would be +1 from the wisdom boost, and -2 from the penalties, for a net -1. Or increase it to -2 for each catagory, for a net -3. MUCH easier than adding an entirely new stat. My players were unanimously in support, which was the deciding factor. Somehow, it seems to me that just adding the extra ability score is easier. But that's probably just me. It's a conceptual problem I have with lumping senses under Wisdom. 3.5 is such a near-total mechanical redesign of 1st ed in the first place that I don't see how adding a single ability is such a big deal if it makes things better. When I originally posted, I had forgotten how I did things. I have removed Spot/Listen/Search from the "Skill" list. I treat them as "Standard Checks" which anyone can do. The mechanics are the same, I just can't rationalize treating them the same way they are in d20/SRD. Reconnaissance skill adds bonuses to Spot/Listen/Search checks, and the Perception modifier applies, along with any other racial bonuses, possible skill synergies, etc. I adjust the DC to compensate for people not spending (or having to spend) their skill points on Spot, Listen, and Search. I tied Perception to several skills, SRD and specific, which I wanted to not be keyed to "Wisdom", which I still see as being more reflective of education and common sense. The partial Skill list I keyed to Perception (still *testing*, very subject to change) Appraise, Blind Action (extrapolation of Blind Fighting feat), Cooking, Disguise, Forgery, Mining, Navigation, Reconnaissance, Sense Motive, and Tracking. Some craft skills also use it, but I didn't list those.
Babaganouj 04-19-07, 04:15 PM	Exactly, which is why I implement: -Acrobatics (Balance + Tumble) -Athletics (Climb + Jump) -Deception (Disguise + Forgery) -Perception (Listen + Spot) -Persuasion (Diplomacy + Gather Information) -Stealth (Hide + Move Silently) -Use Device (Use Magic Device + Use Psionic Device) While I am fully in favour of combining skills, the ones listed are most heavily used by classes that have many skill points (Rogues in particular). Have you encountered any balancing issues?