Adding Gestalt Saves??? [Archive] - Wizards Community

Adding Gestalt Saves??? [Archive] - Wizards Community

Post/Author/DateTime Post
Bubba333
02-01-05, 12:58 AM I have a question here:

If you have a Gestalt PC with Fighter 4/Scout 4 who then changes to Wizard 1/Rogue 1, what saves do they have? Do you drop to the new classes or add them in whatever way would give you the best saves? Any help??? :weep:
LordArkan
02-01-05, 02:04 AM Well, lets look at it level by level - think of it just like a multiclass character.

1 Fighter 1/Scout 1 - +2/+2/+0 (2/0/0 + 0/2/0)
2 Fighter 2/Scout 2 - +3/+3/+0 (1/0/0 + 0/1/0)
3 Fighter 3/Scout 3 - +4/+4/+1 (0/1/1 + 1/0/1)
4 Fighter 4/Scout 4 - +5/+5/+1 (1/0/0 + 0/1/0)
5 Wizard 1/Rogue 1 - +5/+7/+3 (0/0/2 + 0/2/0)

Or if you use fractional saves/BAB

1 Fighter 1/Scout 1 - +2.5/+2.5/+.33 (2/2/0)
2 Fighter 2/Scout 2 - +3/+3/+.66 (3/3/0)
3 Fighter 3/Scout 3 - +3.5/+3.5/+1 (3/3/1)
4 Fighter 4/Scout 4 - +4/+4/+1.33 (4/4/1)
5 Wizard 1/Rogue 1 - +4.33/+4.5/+1.83 (4/4/1)
Bubba333
02-01-05, 02:13 AM The only problem is that normal multiclass characters don't progress in the earlier classes. For example, if you're a Fighter up until 4th lvl and then multiclass into Rogue you don't get anything from the 5th lvl Fighter (as I'm sure you know). When you're making a gestalt character you take the best of anything that overlaps between the two classes (BAB, saves, skill points). My problem is if you drop both classes for new ones. Do you suddenly drop to the 1st lvl BAB and saves, or do you add the better of the two new to the better of the old two (which makes sense)? What about PrCs? Does that make sense?
gbnogkfs
02-01-05, 05:59 AM The only problem is that normal multiclass characters don't progress in the earlier classes. For example, if you're a Fighter up until 4th lvl and then multiclass into Rogue you don't get anything from the 5th lvl Fighter (as I'm sure you know). When you're making a gestalt character you take the best of anything that overlaps between the two classes (BAB, saves, skill points). My problem is if you drop both classes for new ones. Do you suddenly drop to the 1st lvl BAB and saves, or do you add the better of the two new to the better of the old two (which makes sense)? What about PrCs? Does that make sense?

The problems do NOT arise when "dropping" both old classes:

a normal (non gestalt) Fighter 4 has BAB +4 and Saves (+4/+1/+1); when you add a level of Rogue you don't get BAB and saves from 5th level of fighter, but you do keep the BAB and saves of 4th level fighter, on top of which you add the +0 BAB and (+0/+2/+0) saves of the 1st level of rogue, for a total BAB +4 and Saves (+4/+3/+1) - this should be clear if we want to play with such advanced toys as gestalt is.

if a gestalt character abandons both old classes at once, there is really no problem: you keep the old, and add on top the best of the new.

the real problem is, in fact, what happen when you "drop" only one class and continue with the other along with a new one, but that's another story...
Lord_Anthrax
02-01-05, 06:17 AM IMO, if you start an entirely new Gestalt class, you're doing essentially what a single-class character does when multiclassing.

Ex: A Fighter 4(F/R/W 4/1/1) enters Rogue 1(F/R/W 0/2/0). Saves are now F/R/W 4/3/1.

Thus with a Gestalt...

Ex: A Fighter-Rogue 4(F/R/W 4/4/1) enters Wizard-Cleric 1(F/R/W 2/0/2). Saves are now F/R/W 6/4/3.

If you retain one side of your original Gestalt class, you don't get the +2 for first level in a new class(this includes PrC's). You just keep basing save progression on the original class's level, with good and poor saves as per the new combo.

Ex: A Fighter-Rogue 4(F/R/W 4/4/1) enters Fighter-Wizard 1. He gets no new save bonuses at that level(as a 5th-level Fighter would), but at Fighter-Wizard 2, he gets a +1 to all saves for a F/R/W of 5/5/2, and at Fighter-Wizard 4 it would be a +1 to Fortitude and Will for F/R/W 6/5/3.
Lord_Anthrax
02-01-05, 06:25 AM (deleted due to BBS error)
Bubba333
02-01-05, 09:06 AM Hrm...that can get rather complicated, eh? :D Thanks for the help.
strenoth
02-01-05, 11:28 AM use fractional saves, only add the +2 for a godo save once ever, and life get's easier over all.
gbnogkfs
02-01-05, 03:12 PM If you retain one side of your original Gestalt class, you don't get the +2 for first level in a new class(this includes PrC's). You just keep basing save progression on the original class's level, with good and poor saves as per the new combo.

Ex: A Fighter-Rogue 4(F/R/W 4/4/1) enters Fighter-Wizard 1. He gets no new save bonuses at that level(as a 5th-level Fighter would), but at Fighter-Wizard 2, he gets a +1 to all saves for a F/R/W of 5/5/2, and at Fighter-Wizard 4 it would be a +1 to Fortitude and Will for F/R/W 6/5/3.

this is not RAW, as RAW says nothing about what happens when you multiclass.
Lord_Anthrax
02-01-05, 09:13 PM Which is why it started with "IMO". :cool:
gbnogkfs
02-02-05, 12:54 AM Which is why it started with "IMO". :cool:

OK, then sorry. :(
Lord_Anthrax
02-02-05, 07:21 AM Quite alright. The reason I said that is that, by the Gestalt RAW, retaining one aspect of a Gestalt class and changing the other doesn't seem to be "true" multiclassing to me, i.e. you're not actually starting a "new" Gestalt class. So you continue to base your save progression on the old class's level, and change the good save(s) as/if needed.
Bubba333
02-02-05, 08:58 AM I read over the fractional stuff and worked out a few characters using your (i.e.-all of you cool cats that have posted) advice and it makes a lot more sense. I appreciate it! ;)
gbnogkfs
02-02-05, 07:08 PM Quite alright. The reason I said that is that, by the Gestalt RAW, retaining one aspect of a Gestalt class and changing the other doesn't seem to be "true" multiclassing to me, i.e. you're not actually starting a "new" Gestalt class. So you continue to base your save progression on the old class's level, and change the good save(s) as/if needed.

the reason I replied that way is there is actually no "gestalt RAW" for multiclassing.
Bubba333
02-02-05, 07:51 PM By the way, what's "RAW"???
Lord_Anthrax
02-02-05, 08:18 PM Rules As Written.
Bubba333
02-02-05, 09:19 PM Thank you! All of what you guys have been saying makes more sense now.
Lord_Anthrax
02-03-05, 07:34 AM You're welcome. And gbnogkfs, I was referring to how a Gestalt "class" comes into being by the RAW in UA, i.e. by combining two classes into one and using the best elements of both level by level. That's how I inferred how I deal with Gestalt multiclassing IMC. Changing one of the "sides" of a Gestalt would be, by my best estimation, changing the features of your class in mid-progression for a single-class character.

Ex: Start off as a Rogue(Average BAB, d6 HD, Good Reflex saves), and around level 8, your Rogue becomes(Good BAB, d10 HD, Good Fortitude saves)instead.

Doesn't make much sense in the single-class perspective, but from a Gestalt perspective it's the closest analogy I can give.
gbnogkfs
02-03-05, 01:57 PM You're welcome. And gbnogkfs, I was referring to how a Gestalt "class" comes into being by the RAW in UA, i.e. by combining two classes into one and using the best elements of both level by level. That's how I inferred how I deal with Gestalt multiclassing IMC. Changing one of the "sides" of a Gestalt would be, by my best estimation, changing the features of your class in mid-progression for a single-class character.

Ex: Start off as a Rogue(Average BAB, d6 HD, Good Reflex saves), and around level 8, your Rogue becomes(Good BAB, d10 HD, Good Fortitude saves)instead.

which someone else (I don't really bother: I don't play gestalt) can say being a new class.
Lord_Anthrax
02-03-05, 05:49 PM Sorry, I really don't see that as being the case.
gbnogkfs
02-04-05, 04:04 AM What about a Fighter/Rogue which takes some levels as Rogue/Wizard and then takes some levels as Wizard/Cleric ? :D

let's have a ftr/rog for 5 levels, a rog/wiz for 5 levels, and a wiz/clr for 5 levels... :P
Lord_Anthrax
02-04-05, 07:26 AM Gimme a level spread. :cool:

Post/Author/DateTime	Post
Bubba333 02-01-05, 12:58 AM	I have a question here: If you have a Gestalt PC with Fighter 4/Scout 4 who then changes to Wizard 1/Rogue 1, what saves do they have? Do you drop to the new classes or add them in whatever way would give you the best saves? Any help??? :weep:
LordArkan 02-01-05, 02:04 AM	Well, lets look at it level by level - think of it just like a multiclass character. 1 Fighter 1/Scout 1 - +2/+2/+0 (2/0/0 + 0/2/0) 2 Fighter 2/Scout 2 - +3/+3/+0 (1/0/0 + 0/1/0) 3 Fighter 3/Scout 3 - +4/+4/+1 (0/1/1 + 1/0/1) 4 Fighter 4/Scout 4 - +5/+5/+1 (1/0/0 + 0/1/0) 5 Wizard 1/Rogue 1 - +5/+7/+3 (0/0/2 + 0/2/0) Or if you use fractional saves/BAB 1 Fighter 1/Scout 1 - +2.5/+2.5/+.33 (2/2/0) 2 Fighter 2/Scout 2 - +3/+3/+.66 (3/3/0) 3 Fighter 3/Scout 3 - +3.5/+3.5/+1 (3/3/1) 4 Fighter 4/Scout 4 - +4/+4/+1.33 (4/4/1) 5 Wizard 1/Rogue 1 - +4.33/+4.5/+1.83 (4/4/1)
Bubba333 02-01-05, 02:13 AM	The only problem is that normal multiclass characters don't progress in the earlier classes. For example, if you're a Fighter up until 4th lvl and then multiclass into Rogue you don't get anything from the 5th lvl Fighter (as I'm sure you know). When you're making a gestalt character you take the best of anything that overlaps between the two classes (BAB, saves, skill points). My problem is if you drop both classes for new ones. Do you suddenly drop to the 1st lvl BAB and saves, or do you add the better of the two new to the better of the old two (which makes sense)? What about PrCs? Does that make sense?
gbnogkfs 02-01-05, 05:59 AM	The only problem is that normal multiclass characters don't progress in the earlier classes. For example, if you're a Fighter up until 4th lvl and then multiclass into Rogue you don't get anything from the 5th lvl Fighter (as I'm sure you know). When you're making a gestalt character you take the best of anything that overlaps between the two classes (BAB, saves, skill points). My problem is if you drop both classes for new ones. Do you suddenly drop to the 1st lvl BAB and saves, or do you add the better of the two new to the better of the old two (which makes sense)? What about PrCs? Does that make sense? The problems do NOT arise when "dropping" both old classes: a normal (non gestalt) Fighter 4 has BAB +4 and Saves (+4/+1/+1); when you add a level of Rogue you don't get BAB and saves from 5th level of fighter, but you do keep the BAB and saves of 4th level fighter, on top of which you add the +0 BAB and (+0/+2/+0) saves of the 1st level of rogue, for a total BAB +4 and Saves (+4/+3/+1) - this should be clear if we want to play with such advanced toys as gestalt is. if a gestalt character abandons both old classes at once, there is really no problem: you keep the old, and add on top the best of the new. the real problem is, in fact, what happen when you "drop" only one class and continue with the other along with a new one, but that's another story...
Lord_Anthrax 02-01-05, 06:17 AM	IMO, if you start an entirely new Gestalt class, you're doing essentially what a single-class character does when multiclassing. Ex: A Fighter 4(F/R/W 4/1/1) enters Rogue 1(F/R/W 0/2/0). Saves are now F/R/W 4/3/1. Thus with a Gestalt... Ex: A Fighter-Rogue 4(F/R/W 4/4/1) enters Wizard-Cleric 1(F/R/W 2/0/2). Saves are now F/R/W 6/4/3. If you retain one side of your original Gestalt class, you don't get the +2 for first level in a new class(this includes PrC's). You just keep basing save progression on the original class's level, with good and poor saves as per the new combo. Ex: A Fighter-Rogue 4(F/R/W 4/4/1) enters Fighter-Wizard 1. He gets no new save bonuses at that level(as a 5th-level Fighter would), but at Fighter-Wizard 2, he gets a +1 to all saves for a F/R/W of 5/5/2, and at Fighter-Wizard 4 it would be a +1 to Fortitude and Will for F/R/W 6/5/3.
Lord_Anthrax 02-01-05, 06:25 AM	(deleted due to BBS error)
Bubba333 02-01-05, 09:06 AM	Hrm...that can get rather complicated, eh? :D Thanks for the help.
strenoth 02-01-05, 11:28 AM	use fractional saves, only add the +2 for a godo save once ever, and life get's easier over all.
gbnogkfs 02-01-05, 03:12 PM	If you retain one side of your original Gestalt class, you don't get the +2 for first level in a new class(this includes PrC's). You just keep basing save progression on the original class's level, with good and poor saves as per the new combo. Ex: A Fighter-Rogue 4(F/R/W 4/4/1) enters Fighter-Wizard 1. He gets no new save bonuses at that level(as a 5th-level Fighter would), but at Fighter-Wizard 2, he gets a +1 to all saves for a F/R/W of 5/5/2, and at Fighter-Wizard 4 it would be a +1 to Fortitude and Will for F/R/W 6/5/3. this is not RAW, as RAW says nothing about what happens when you multiclass.
Lord_Anthrax 02-01-05, 09:13 PM	Which is why it started with "IMO". :cool:
gbnogkfs 02-02-05, 12:54 AM	Which is why it started with "IMO". :cool: OK, then sorry. :(
Lord_Anthrax 02-02-05, 07:21 AM	Quite alright. The reason I said that is that, by the Gestalt RAW, retaining one aspect of a Gestalt class and changing the other doesn't seem to be "true" multiclassing to me, i.e. you're not actually starting a "new" Gestalt class. So you continue to base your save progression on the old class's level, and change the good save(s) as/if needed.
Bubba333 02-02-05, 08:58 AM	I read over the fractional stuff and worked out a few characters using your (i.e.-all of you cool cats that have posted) advice and it makes a lot more sense. I appreciate it! ;)
gbnogkfs 02-02-05, 07:08 PM	Quite alright. The reason I said that is that, by the Gestalt RAW, retaining one aspect of a Gestalt class and changing the other doesn't seem to be "true" multiclassing to me, i.e. you're not actually starting a "new" Gestalt class. So you continue to base your save progression on the old class's level, and change the good save(s) as/if needed. the reason I replied that way is there is actually no "gestalt RAW" for multiclassing.
Bubba333 02-02-05, 07:51 PM	By the way, what's "RAW"???
Lord_Anthrax 02-02-05, 08:18 PM	Rules As Written.
Bubba333 02-02-05, 09:19 PM	Thank you! All of what you guys have been saying makes more sense now.
Lord_Anthrax 02-03-05, 07:34 AM	You're welcome. And gbnogkfs, I was referring to how a Gestalt "class" comes into being by the RAW in UA, i.e. by combining two classes into one and using the best elements of both level by level. That's how I inferred how I deal with Gestalt multiclassing IMC. Changing one of the "sides" of a Gestalt would be, by my best estimation, changing the features of your class in mid-progression for a single-class character. Ex: Start off as a Rogue(Average BAB, d6 HD, Good Reflex saves), and around level 8, your Rogue becomes(Good BAB, d10 HD, Good Fortitude saves)instead. Doesn't make much sense in the single-class perspective, but from a Gestalt perspective it's the closest analogy I can give.
gbnogkfs 02-03-05, 01:57 PM	You're welcome. And gbnogkfs, I was referring to how a Gestalt "class" comes into being by the RAW in UA, i.e. by combining two classes into one and using the best elements of both level by level. That's how I inferred how I deal with Gestalt multiclassing IMC. Changing one of the "sides" of a Gestalt would be, by my best estimation, changing the features of your class in mid-progression for a single-class character. Ex: Start off as a Rogue(Average BAB, d6 HD, Good Reflex saves), and around level 8, your Rogue becomes(Good BAB, d10 HD, Good Fortitude saves)instead. which someone else (I don't really bother: I don't play gestalt) can say being a new class.
Lord_Anthrax 02-03-05, 05:49 PM	Sorry, I really don't see that as being the case.
gbnogkfs 02-04-05, 04:04 AM	What about a Fighter/Rogue which takes some levels as Rogue/Wizard and then takes some levels as Wizard/Cleric ? :D let's have a ftr/rog for 5 levels, a rog/wiz for 5 levels, and a wiz/clr for 5 levels... :P
Lord_Anthrax 02-04-05, 07:26 AM	Gimme a level spread. :cool: