Post/Author/DateTime	Post
Xeviat-DM 04-21-05, 04:29 PM	After I was first introduced to D&D through Baldur's Gate, I started to create my own game system utilizing my friend's ideas on magic taken from european alchemy and japanese elementalism. The base of the idea is that your physical attributes (ability scores) reflect upon your strength with each element. When I was creating the ability scores, I initially began with seven: Agility, Charisma, Constitution, Dexterity, Intelligence, Strength, and Wisdom. Agility would be tied to AC, Constitution to HP, Dexterity to to hit, and Strength to damage. The idea was simple: coordination and speed are two different attributes in my opinion. A marksman is very coordinated, but his reflexes aren't necessarily better than anyone elses. It takes coordination to hit your target, not strength; it takes strength to break through armor and hide. This made me think that armor would absorb damage too. Three years later, I hold UA in my hands and begin to rethink my old ideas. I have posted this before, but I don't believe in it's own thread on the board of house rules. My intention with this rule is that it better allows a distinction between physically powerful warriors and coordinated warriors, between dodgy warriors and hardy warriors. ------------------- Strength: Strength represents your physical power, the strength of your muscles. Apply its modifier to: Melee and thrown weapon damage rolls (as well as damage made with projectile weapons designed to require high strength). Climb, Jump, and Swim checks. Carrying Capacity. Grapple checks. Strength Checks (For trip, overrun, bullrush, and breaking objects) Dexterity: Dexterity represents your coordination and balance. Apply its modifier to: Attack Rolls Balance, Hide, Move Silently, Open Lock, Ride, Sleight of Hand, and Use Rope checks. Constitution: Constitution represents your resiliance to damage and disease. Apply its modifier to: Each roll of a Hit Die. Fortitude saves. Concentration checks. Constitution checks to resist starvation, dehidration, or exertion. Agility: Agility represents your quickness and the speed of your reflexes. Apply its modifier to: Armor Class, provided you can react to the attack (and limited by your armor and load). Initiative rolls. Reflex saves. Escape Artist, and Tumble checks. Combined, I utilize Armor as Damage Reduction, with a slightly modified armor table. Armor Name AC DR Max Agi ACP Light armor Padded +1 0/- +8 0 Leather +1 1/- +6 0 Studded leather +1 2/- +5 -1 Chain shirt +2 1/- +5 -2 Medium armor Hide +3 2/- +4 -3 Scale mail +3 3/- +3 -4 Breastplate +4 2/- +3 -4 Chainmail +4 3/- +2 -5 Heavy armor Splint mail +4 5/- +1 -6 Banded mail +5 4/- +1 -6 Half-plate +5 5/- +0 -7 Full plate +5 5/- +1 -6 You'll note that when you add the AC, DR, and Max Dex together, you'll end up with higher amounts for medium and heavy armor. This is because both armors cost additional proficiencies to use (I use a modified proficiency system where you have to purchase your proficiencies at first character level, gaining a number based on your class). Anyway, I know it's a big change, but my players have found it conceptually appealing. My only current problem is what to do about the weapon finesse feat, since I really require it for one of the feat trees that exists in my campaign right now (second feat adds int to damage as precision while finessing, third feat adds int to AC while finessing).
Lord Schpungus 04-22-05, 10:37 AM	Great. Let's add Comeliness and Nobility, too, for our 8th and 9th stats. Wonderful.
Ricky 04-22-05, 11:49 AM	I've done a similar thing, except what you call "Dexterity" I call "Agility", and what you call "Agility" I call "Reflexes".
J Milburn 04-22-05, 02:34 PM	Great. Let's add Comeliness and Nobility, too, for our 8th and 9th stats. Wonderful. Ok, whats nobility; kind of like your fame rating? I have also find a use for 3.5 perception... I have noticed that kind of thing before (back onto oriuginal subject) with duelists compared to acrobats, but wont this system underpower dex a little? i suppose strength is also knocked down a nook...
Lord Schpungus 04-22-05, 03:39 PM	Well, that didn't come off as deadpan as I'd intended. Thought that might be a problem, but I didn't take any steps to insure proper communication of my intentions. I'm not big on adding stat after stat after stat. Hence why I'm uninspired with adding Agility. Or comeliness. Or Spellcasting Stat X.
HailSpork 04-22-05, 04:48 PM	It looks pretty good. Perhaps weapon finesse could simply add a +1 to hit for all finessible weapons? I was thinking that it could use agility to hit instead of dex, but then dex does almost nothing.
Lina_Inverse 04-23-05, 07:51 PM	K.I.S.S KEEP IT SIMPLE STUIPID. oh and this makes casters better,never make casters better.
J Milburn 04-24-05, 05:24 AM	oh and this makes casters better,never make casters better. I have to agree with both points there.
Kirin_Folken 04-24-05, 04:07 PM	I like it.. then again i was a big fan of the 8 stat DnD rules. 6 stats might be simple, but thier also unrealistic and dont realy fill out your character as well as say 7...8....or 9 stats would. If you look at most games thier are more then 6 stats.. whats that tell you? I am wonder... how does a 7 stat (agility) make wizards more powerful? Its not like a wizard couldn't just put a high stat in dex anyways... or are you saying because its another stat for melee types to worry about and wizards only realy care about CON and INT? ... personaly I am for anything that nerfs wizards :D
Lina_Inverse 04-24-05, 05:39 PM	I am wonder... how does a 7 stat (agility) make wizards more powerful? Its not like a wizard couldn't just put a high stat in dex anyways... or are you saying because its another stat for melee types to worry about and wizards only realy care about CON and INT? exactly.wizards will boost agi just like they used to boost dex,it gives them everything they wanted from it(AC and init for the unlearned).whereas melees now have one more stat reinforceing there MAD over casters.power is relative,this increases the casters power compared to fighter types.and as always druids dont give a **** since its a physical ability :P it also nerfs strengh(greatly),remember that +2 damage=+1 to hit also the dex stat is pretty useless it does ONE thing for your charecter. more stats=suckier system.remember the KISS rule complex systems are less fun,the point of games is to have fun.i want to get to the roleplaying and dramatics NOT sit there rolling 20 dice to detirmine if i hit. besm drops it down to 3 stats and if not for lacking a class/level system would be the best system of all easily.
RogerWilco 04-24-05, 06:19 PM	In this 2nd edition book called Players Option: Skills and Powers, TSR (now WotC) did something along these lines, they split up every stat into 2 substats: Strength: Stamina, Muscle Dexterity: Aim, Balance Constitution: Health, Fitness Intelligence: Reason, Knowledge Wisdom: Intuition, Willpower Charisma: Leadership, Appearance You could for example have Strength 16: Stamina14/Muscle18 You might find more information on the internet if you google for this.
HailSpork 04-24-05, 08:29 PM	more stats=suckier system. Lina's right. In fact, here's my idea: Reduce the 6 stats in DnD to one stat, called "Awesomeness". Use awesomeness (abbreviated AWE) to determine all of your saving throws, all of your skill mods, damage for melee weapons, thrown weapons, and other specially designed bows. Awesomness also determines skill points per level, bonus hp per level, and prereqs for feats. As for attribute generation methods, 4d6 drop the lowest works, but I also like using the "Elite Array" of 14.
Kirin_Folken 04-24-05, 10:30 PM	Agreed, Adding another stat that melee types have to worry about were as Wizards dont does nothing but give one more advantage to the wizards. However.. it still stands that having DEX govern both Hand eye cordination and reaction times doesn't make sense. Great marksmen are not automaticly quick with reflexes, they other way around is also true. So for over all balance, Good idea.. but needs expanding on (adding another mental stat would help) More Stats does not= Suckyer system I will give examples of multi-stat system over 6. Legend of the Five Rings (5 rings with 2 stats per ring=10 stats) White Wolf games Exazlted, Vampire, Werewolf, Mage etc etc 9 Stats Palldium Games (sp?) 8 stats again RPG Madness 15 stats!!! Cyberpunk + other fuzion systems If I recall correctly 8 stats Shadowrun 10 stats EverQuest 8 stats :) Like i said 6 stats thou simple also suffers from limitation Lets be honest here.. if you were realy intersted in keeping to K.I.S.S. then why are you playing 3.5 DnD? shouldn't you be playing 1st ED ADnD? Heck, Your name is Lina Inverse... why are you not playing B.E.S.M.? That has only 3 stats :) Xeviat-DM: Good start.. but like has been pointed out try working with 8-9 stats this gives you a very nice well rounded mental/physical tree to work with and still keeps things on the simple side. And once again... Nerf Wizards :)
Lina_Inverse 04-25-05, 01:10 AM	Lina's right. In fact, here's my idea: Reduce the 6 stats in DnD to one stat, called "Awesomeness". Use awesomeness (abbreviated AWE) to determine all of your saving throws, all of your skill mods, damage for melee weapons, thrown weapons, and other specially designed bows. Awesomness also determines skill points per level, bonus hp per level, and prereqs for feats. As for attribute generation methods, 4d6 drop the lowest works, but I also like using the "Elite Array" of 14. oh come on,that IS funny but a bit overkill. you can really only drop it to 3 or 4 stats retaining sanity. actully i have an rpg called awesome the rpg where awesomeness IS a stat.but no one wants to see that,its a bunch of jokes i threw together over a few days. pirate/ninja/catgirls hehehehehehe Legend of the Five Rings couldnt they have cut this to 5?are they remotely balenced? id certinly see it as a wonderfully flavorful excuse for 5 stats. White Wolf games ....you mean the most poorly constructed system ever,the thing i mentioned when i said 20 dice? i do gm exalted,depite that.because well exalted KICKS ASS!but it makes me see all the damn flaws in the system(what do you MEAN you got 12 successes on your stare in there eyes and make them like you check.god damn it,cant you ever NOT make people fall in love with you?) and the stats in white wolf dont begin to approach balenced,can we say dex?can we say app?can we say sta?i knew you could. EverQuest no no,everquest has 6.since well,it uses d20. the mmorpg thing dont count,a computer does it.not me.so i gives a fudge HOW complex it is. Like i said 6 stats thou simple also suffers from limitation ill admit it has limitations,but the faster i roll them bones the faster the game moves.which makes the game is more fun. i really dislike takeing 5 minutes to resolve an attack.which is why my exalted game lacks combat(and the pcs have a grand total of 8 points in combat skills between them.that sure helps :P) Heck, Your name is Lina Inverse... why are you not playing B.E.S.M.? That has only 3 stats I DO!didnt i MENTION THAT VERY THING?but it lacks a class/level system.which i adore.and i have a softspot for D&D.and D&D does slayers well(heck the slayers RPG IS d20 ^.^ bwahahahaha)
HailSpork 04-25-05, 01:52 AM	oh come on,that IS funny but a bit overkill. I thought you'd like that, particularly since it means that all spellcasting is awesome-based. Honestly though, I could see reducing DnD to 3 stats; Mind (int,cha,wis), Body(con,str, not to hit), Speed(dex and to hit). I could also see expanding it to 12 stats, like player's option in 2nd ed. Personally, I could go for the 12 more easily than I could go for 3. Hmm... that might be worth trying out some time... Adding a 7th stat adds a little complexity to the game, but not that much. It means when you fill out your character sheet, you have a 7th place to look. Actually, this kind of uncomplicates things since it combines the melee to-hit with ranged. The things you have to worry about for complexity are extra rolls made during combat. Those can slow down the game, and it's the last time you want to be looking through charts. Still, some of us *want* that kind of complexity. Adding a 7th stat doesn't favor wizards that much. I don't know about the rest of you, but I like my wizards to have a high dex. In fact, it's normally my second favorite attribute for wizards. With the split of agility from dex, I would prefer a high agility, but now I need dex to make my ranged touch attacks hit (well, hit as often as possible). Besides, I don't build casters who don't have tumble.
Lina_Inverse 04-25-05, 01:57 AM	Honestly though, I could see reducing DnD to 3 stats; Mind (int,cha,wis), Body(con,str, not to hit), Speed(dex and to hit). I could also see expanding it to 12 stats, like player's option in 2nd ed. Personally, I could go for the 12 more easily than I could go for 3. Hmm... that might be worth trying out some time... 4 strengh(strengh absorbs con,loses to-hit) dex(duh) int(absorbs part of wisdom) cha(absorbs part of wisdom) Adding a 7th stat adds a little complexity to the game, but not that much. It means when you fill out your character sheet, you have a 7th place to look. Actually, this kind of uncomplicates things since it combines the melee to-hit with ranged. Adding a 7th stat doesn't favor wizards that much. I don't know about the rest of you, but I like my wizards to have a high dex. In fact, it's normally my second favorite attribute for wizards. With the split of agility from dex, I would prefer a high agility, but now I need dex to make my ranged touch attacks hit (well, hit as often as possible). Besides, I don't build casters who don't have tumble. range touch attacks can miss?whatchutalkinbout hailspork. the caster loses nothing for just grabing agility. and dex is severely worthless. and strengh is even MORE worthless. what caster has tumble?you fly or are a bear or have heavy armor.
HailSpork 04-25-05, 04:14 AM	Touch attacks can miss, it's just not very common. It's even less common if you have a better bonus to hit. Ideally, I like to hit on 2's. Point blank shot helps. Tumbling isn't necessarily on the ground. Besides, for those cases where I'm not flying, I like to be able to disengage from an enemy so I don't have to worry about casting on the defensive. Particularly when I'm at a low level, and can't fly at all. You're right about strength though; it's almost useless to a caster, now it's only encumbrance.
Kirin_Folken 04-25-05, 08:56 PM	couldnt they have cut this to 5?are they remotely balenced? id certinly see it as a wonderfully flavorful excuse for 5 stats. Not realy...I suppose if you realy realy wanted to you could but it would screw up just about every die role in the game. Maybe you could make it work, but not without a serious overhaul. ....you mean the most poorly constructed system ever,the thing i mentioned when i said 20 dice? i do gm exalted,depite that.because well exalted KICKS ASS!but it makes me see all the damn flaws in the system(what do you MEAN you got 12 successes on your stare in there eyes and make them like you check.god damn it,cant you ever NOT make people fall in love with you?) and the stats in white wolf dont begin to approach balenced,can we say dex?can we say app?can we say sta?i knew you could. no no,everquest has 6.since well,it uses d20. the mmorpg thing dont count,a computer does it.not me.so i gives a fudge HOW complex it is. Ok White would isn't the worst system ever, white wolf just falls victum to bad players and bad GMs to many times :) In alot of ways i like the dot sytem as I call whitewolf..thou the success thing does annoy the hell out of me. As for Everquest.. it has 8 stats.. Str,Sta, Dex,Agil,Wis,int,Cha...mmm... guess it was 7 stats LOL but its still not 6 :) ill admit it has limitations,but the faster i roll them bones the faster the game moves.which makes the game is more fun. i really dislike takeing 5 minutes to resolve an attack.which is why my exalted game lacks combat(and the pcs have a grand total of 8 points in combat skills between them.that sure helps :P) I DO!didnt i MENTION THAT VERY THING?but it lacks a class/level system.which i adore.and i have a softspot for D&D.and D&D does slayers well(heck the slayers RPG IS d20 ^.^ bwahahahaha) I agree that I like games to move quickly.. but 3.5 DnD is not one of them even with its 6 stats. Get a group of 5 PC attacking, at teen levels, most melee types are throwing 4 attacks, thats 20 dice rolls to hit, with 20 dice rolls to dmg, plus 5 dice rolls for initaititve... plus lets not forget that dmg dice might be more then 1 die. Play EPic and 3.5 DnD slows to a crawl.. try 3-4 hours to get throw a Single fight. A HUGE THUMBS up for playing B.E.S.M. If you didn't with a name of Lina inverse I would have to hunt you down and subject you to watching all of Sailor Moon DUB!!! (Sailor Moon, Sailor R, Sailor S, Sailor SuperS) ...mm can't do stars but I WOULD throw in the movies jsut for added punishment!! WWAahhahHAhahah
Xorial 04-25-05, 10:41 PM	In a way, I can see adding a couple of stats making the game LESS complex. Not trolling here, but making my opinion known. I feel some of the game is too complex simply because they pile too much on one stat. I can live with Dex covering what it covers now, but it shows a little of what I'm talking about. Having one stat cover mutliple abilities isnt always a good thing. I have abiggier time dealing with the myriad of mental stat use. I can see a Psionics (Psi) ability, which would only come in play in games that have psionics. Just as I can see a Mana (Man), or similiar score, for controling magical access. I have often thought of doing this in my games anyway. It just seems silly to me to have Charisma as a casting stat, as well as how well you perform, as well as how good looking you are, as well as etc. I have a hard time picturing a bard with a 18 Cha & an 8 Dex (though I doubt that anybody would play one with this stat combo) being able to play a guitar all that well, though by the rules he will be rather good. In the end, you can do whatever makes your game more enjoyable. I seriously doubt that anybody here has to worry what another person does for his/her campaign. Dont flame somebody just because they present an idea about how THEY like to run their campaign. If they ask for input, then give it. No need to be hateful. I dont know about everybody else, but I wont ever being using my stuff in tournament play anyway. Just my own enjoyment.
LordArkan 04-26-05, 01:35 AM	Did someone say 4 stats? ST DX IQ HT How Generic and Universal of you. :D
Yak of Darkness 04-26-05, 03:45 AM	A HUGE THUMBS up for playing B.E.S.M. If you didn't with a name of Lina inverse I would have to hunt you down and subject you to watching all of Sailor Moon DUB!!! You are a cruel, cruel bastard. I can actually hear Molly's damn Brooklyn accent in my head now thanks to you. :banghead: Although I'm a fan of keeping the D&D stats as they are, I have to admit I'm intrigued by the "substats" idea for each main one. It might be an interesting variant to try sometime. And just to throw a few more ways to rearrange stats in an effort to clog up everything . . . :D TRISTAT BESM: Body (Str, Dex, and Con) Mind (Int) Soul (Wis, Cha) UNISYSTEM BUFFY/ANGEL: STR (Str and Con) DEX (Str and Dex) CON (Dex and Con) INT (Int, Cha) PER (Wis) WILL (Wis)
Xeviat-DM 04-30-05, 05:59 AM	J Milburn and Lina; I shouldn't expect everyone to have followed every one of my posts or all of the nuances of my varient rules, but here's something you may want to consider before saying that I've overpowered spellcasters (if anything I've weakened them considerably). Int is the skill modifier for Knowledge and Spellcraft, skills that all spellcasters require. I don't allow Wizards, Clerics, or Druids to learn/access certain spell levels without a sufficient score in Knowledge. I use mana points, but not as UA or XPH does it (though it's more similar to XPH). Each class has a Mana Die (MD), and this die is rolled at every level to determine how much mana you gain on a level up. Your wisdom modifier applies to each of these dice. Your charisma modifier is applied to your spell DC rolls. Additionally, a caster's physical stats are used in helping to determine their caster level with each different element (air, earth, fire, water). This is partially why I needed 4 physical stats (fire: str; air: agi; earth: con; water: dex). -------- To address a few of the more constructive points: I don't think Dex was weakened too much, since it now applies to all to hits. Yes, AC has taken a small drop, but Dex also applies to many many many skills, and since to hit rolls are needed for most combat manuvers, it also applies to many tricks. All warriors will want it, and casters can't skimp too much or else they will have a harder time with touch attacks. My only worry is that Con has quite a bit going for it now, compared to the others. I have no intention of expanding this further; seven is where it is staying. I am currently questioning exactly which skills should be agility (part of me thinks that balance and slight of hand have justification for being agility, unsure). I briefly considered creating a fourth mental stat, for symetry, but couldn't come up with one at all (a friend brought up luck, but couldn't figure out how it would work).
J Milburn 04-30-05, 08:22 AM	J Milburn and Lina; I shouldn't expect everyone to have followed every one of my posts or all of the nuances of my varient rules, but here's something you may want to consider before saying that I've overpowered spellcasters (if anything I've weakened them considerably). Int is the skill modifier for Knowledge and Spellcraft, skills that all spellcasters require. I don't allow Wizards, Clerics, or Druids to learn/access certain spell levels without a sufficient score in Knowledge. I use mana points, but not as UA or XPH does it (though it's more similar to XPH). Each class has a Mana Die (MD), and this die is rolled at every level to determine how much mana you gain on a level up. Your wisdom modifier applies to each of these dice. Your charisma modifier is applied to your spell DC rolls. Additionally, a caster's physical stats are used in helping to determine their caster level with each different element (air, earth, fire, water). This is partially why I needed 4 physical stats (fire: str; air: agi; earth: con; water: dex). -------- To address a few of the more constructive points: I don't think Dex was weakened too much, since it now applies to all to hits. Yes, AC has taken a small drop, but Dex also applies to many many many skills, and since to hit rolls are needed for most combat manuvers, it also applies to many tricks. All warriors will want it, and casters can't skimp too much or else they will have a harder time with touch attacks. My only worry is that Con has quite a bit going for it now, compared to the others. I have no intention of expanding this further; seven is where it is staying. I am currently questioning exactly which skills should be agility (part of me thinks that balance and slight of hand have justification for being agility, unsure). I briefly considered creating a fourth mental stat, for symetry, but couldn't come up with one at all (a friend brought up luck, but couldn't figure out how it would work). I see i didnt actually mention the con overpowering, and i beleive con to be the 'best' stat anyways. Ill not explain why, but im pretty sure it works, but primarily for higher levels. I was arguing basically from the point of veiw of dropping it into my own game.
Xeviat-DM 05-02-05, 06:07 PM	I see i didnt actually mention the con overpowering, and i beleive con to be the 'best' stat anyways. Ill not explain why, but im pretty sure it works, but primarily for higher levels. I was arguing basically from the point of veiw of dropping it into my own game. Well, true that if you were to drop it into a standard game, it may hurt non-casters more than casters. Part of the justification is to make a fundamental difference between the strong warriors (favor str and con) vs. the fast warriors (favor dex and agi). This will be requiring much rewriting and retesting of monsters, especially the more "humanoid" ones (giants in particular), but I'm ready for the work.
Kirin_Folken 05-04-05, 09:22 PM	You are a cruel, cruel bastard. I can actually hear Molly's damn Brooklyn accent in my head now thanks to you. :banghead: ...shivers from the thought.... yeah it was bad Anyways, would be interesting in ways if the system did have decated stats like were mentioned. At least somthing to break up the uber stats (STR,CON,DEX mainly)