Post/Author/DateTime	Post
zae 09-22-06, 03:26 AM	Okay, to start with, I know the "Is Charisma a worthless stat for the majority of the party?" argument will rage on for a century. This isn't about that. This is for those who have found it to be lacking (ifyou disagree, and think everyone in the party can benefit from it, great, but you needn't reply to tell me I'm wrong.), and some solutions. Basically, a friend (fleet_halfelven, if s/he still posts on the boards) and I were discussing D&D in general - we've ben taking a bit of a break from roleplaying, just not being in the mood, but we could still have a discusion about it whiole waiting at the train station. It was briefly about dwarves being extremely decent for a core race, and then talk on how D&D has the scale of which ability scores are better than what, and how inacurrate it is. Then we got onto Charisma. In the games we play, usually with the same groups, this is what happens: A least one person plays a sorcerer, liking their flavour (some of us actually like dragons, as opposed to the majority of complaint threads on the boards) and being better at planning ahead in the longterm than the shortterm. That person gets annoyed at how they have an ability score that affects: their spellcasting. The wizard gets more skillful, the cleric gets better Will saves, etc. Most of us did away with the "cross-class skills" idea, so everything is class for evryone. This makes them feel better about it. Suddenly, sorcerers can be good diplomats, or really scary, or great performers, or can abuse magic devices or whatever. Someone else will usually be a dedicated people-person. Or maybe the sorcerer has enough skill points (not bothering with knowledges or spellcraft - someone else's job) to cover it, and you really only need one person for this. Everyne needs HP and good saving throws, but only one person needs to be good at talking to people. That person will, unless previously mentioned sorcerer, really not want combat to happen at all (other than using diplomancy to talk people into waging war for you), because their best ability score (and even the feats etc. spent to supplement the ability) doesn't help once the fight starts. Possibly someone is playing a non-core race, one with special abilities that rely on Charisma. Chances are, they want to make the most of racial abilities (especially if they're spending levels on the ECL of it), so they need a good Charisma. This puts them in the same boat as the Sorc, except it's even less useful, there only being a small number of abilities it affects. Others will, if a very generous point-buy is given, spend points on Charisma. Just because we think it appropriate. The kinds of people who adventure are the kind of people who know that they're better than everyon else. They could wield their ego as a weapon. But they still feel that they're spending points on nothing. So back to the point. Today we discussed a fix. At first, fleet suggested that Charisma is linked to Dexterity - dancing is a dextrous activity, yet that's a Charisma-based skill. So Charisma is partially "the other Dexterity" in this case. So she thought perhaps Charisma should be added to AC, with the same limitations as Dex (specifically, that "max Dex" on armour is the highest you can get from both added together). I thought it had promise, although is quite strong. Then I realised that usually, people either wear really light armour (this would help them, true) or they wear really heavy armour. "Which is ugly and we want to discourage people from ot looking pretty by wrapping themselves up in steel." Monks would benefit from it - or would they? They have a fair case of MAD as is. But the unarmoured fighter types would definitely gain something. It would make such character types more feasible. While it wouldn't completely weaken Dexterity (heck, in point-buy, the high-Dex types could even benefit from this by not having to spend 6 more points to go from Dex 16 to Dex 18, simply spending those on getting Cha to 14), it would mean that something else can help cover for Dexterity, which is a very decent ability score. But for those who consider adding to AC too powerful (or too risky to game balance), she then thought "Why not make Action Points standard for our games, and have Action Points equal your Charisma mod? It could perhaps be per day instead of per level, making them useful every day, but you usually won't have heaps and heaps." It must be noted that my experience with AP is a very good one, although there are two differences: 1. The DM abides by the rule of "You can't add action dice after being told the target number". But whenever you don't roll high enough, he asks "Are you sure that's all you rolled?" So basically, he does tell us. I'd just make it standard to do. 2. He makes it change the original dice roll. Makes critical hits easy when really needed, and is good for those moments of "Damnit, I pass the save vs death on anything but a natural one, and what do I get?" It also lets people declare "HA! Natural 24!!!" I think this could work well, ad fits with Charisma: true heroes are the kinds who do impressive stunts, and always pull through, and know how awesome they are. They're better than the world and they know it. So, what do people think about using either of these? Any immediate problems leaping into view? I would not use both at once, I think one is certainly good enough to make Charisma useful in combat for all. Anyone else have similar ideas?
Patrick Draken-Korin 09-22-06, 01:38 PM	I haven't played with action points much, though I've read up on eberron, and I like this variant; one of my biggest gripes with action points was that they were per level. Setting action points to equal cha mod and having them per day (or per week) would be much better. I've always though charisma should have something, but the best I could come up with was a fourth save; never balanced it out, and gave up. I think this idea is really interesting, though I wnoder how much balance-work would be required for it, if any?
058 09-22-06, 04:17 PM	What, if I may ask, are Action Points?
sigma999 09-22-06, 05:01 PM	Check out Eberron or d20 Modern for action points. Charisma -> Action Points per Day looks like a good idea. There are also a ton of combat feats and class abilities that add Charisma to this or that bonus, Iaijutsu skill checks (Oriental Adventures) being one of them!
zae 09-23-06, 01:13 AM	So, it seems the AP idea has support, this bodes well. 058: Action Points are pool of points you have (using certain settings/rule variants). Normally it replenishes every level. You spend these to add 1D6 (per point spent to a single D20 roll. Normally you have to roll them before knowing if you succeeded or failed (irrelevant if your DM always tells you the DC before you roll to speed things up). I'm actually a fan of being able to use them after knowing the results, to help them be useful. Then again, if they replenish every day, it wouldn't be so bad, just like any other ability with limited uses that sometimes fails.
Xeviat-DM 09-23-06, 06:52 PM	I've been considering this for a time as well. I think you should get action points per day (or week; they are potent and having so many of them kind of makes them less special) equal to 1 + charisma modifier; that way you don't have 0 action points until a Cha of 9 or 8 (typically the lowest you get since the game is balanced around default array). It will make people think twice about dumping cha, reward those who pump it up, but it won't be too big of a deal that everyone has to have it high.
theotherdraxen 09-23-06, 08:36 PM	It makes sense too. Charisma is your 'force of personality', and those who have epically strong forces of personality could reshape the nature of the universe at will (not something someone with a 60 charisma could accomplish, but still). The way I see it, your force of personality kind of spills out into the universe to modify things in your favor. Definitely per week, though. Per day just makes action points far too common. In fact, I'd consider per month, or just per adventure.
Doomed_Penguin 09-23-06, 08:51 PM	I really like Cha. to AP per week. I like to think of it as the more Cha. you have, the luckier you are. Hence the higher die roll.
Lord_Varos 09-24-06, 12:36 AM	I use Charisma checks to represent ability to be random. This may not seem useful, but if you're trying to escape from a flyer who is attempting to drop bombs in your path, then being random in your movements is useful. I used Charisma once or twice to represent the number of creatures you could communicate telepathically with in a round, or the number of ideas you can express through a free action of speaking. It didn't come up otherwise.
zae 09-24-06, 01:46 AM	Per month or per adventure would probably be less relevant than the standard amount that replenishes each level. I guess per week could work, it would even mean the party in general wouldn't mind spending a week waiting when the item-crafter wants to make something.
Xeviat-DM 09-24-06, 02:43 PM	Yeah, when you think about it, per week is nothing. Characters level up after 13 standard encounters. That's about three days worth of solid adventuring, so changing APs to be per week would lessen character's AP in a worse case scenario. They've got to be per day. Even at per day, it would require a 16 Cha to get an AP every fight.
Relic 09-24-06, 03:43 PM	While I've not made this change, I've always thought that the saving throws should be based on two stats. Fortitude could be Wisdom/Constitution, Will could be Wisdom/Charisma, and Reflex could be Dexterity/Intelligence. Ability bonuses to saving throws would, overall, be a little less but it would make all the stats (except Strength) valuable for saving throws.
Patrick Draken-Korin 09-24-06, 05:51 PM	Here's an idea; if you're playing at the recomended daily rate of encounter's (you know, 4 per day), then try the action points per day system. On the other hand if you regularily fight three or less encounters a day, then drop the action points down to per week. It would also depend on avialability of rest-stops. If you can fight for three or four days straight, get the level and keep going without resting or crafting, or anything like that, then per day sounds good enough. But, if your group will normally fight out the four daily encounters and not see any combat for most of a month, then per week could still be reasonable. As for how many action points you get, maybe it should be cha mod + 1/3 levels (min 1), that way action points still scale with level as well as with cha bonuses. Altogether, different scaling systems might be better for per day or per week as well; if at level 1 you only get 1 point each day, well boo hoo. But if at level 15 you can have 12 each day... (5 form levels + 5 charisma mod + 2 from a +4 cloak of charisma) then adding in feats...
zae 09-25-06, 08:21 AM	Ooh, a good idea. I've always thought that various things (spell slots being a big contender here) should be modified based on how closely people stick to the prescribed four encounters per active day.
Rhialto 09-25-06, 08:54 AM	I've decided to adopt this for my house rules, with a few changes... Maximum action points is 5 + charisma bonus + level/2 (roudn down). Clerics and templars (my paladin variants) may choose to substitute wisdom for charisma in the calculation above, representing the blessings from their $deity. Action points are restored in full when you gain a level, and recover at 1 per day otherwise.
zae 09-25-06, 10:52 AM	Hmm, interesting, however don't you think clerics are good enough without their casting stat giving AP? If it's set to be Charisma, then the only casting classes to benefit from it the most are Sorcerer and Bard, both being the weakest of the casters. As it is, a cleric already has their casting stat affect their Will save (the "I don't get held and killed with a coup de grace" save) and several class skills. This allows a sorcerer to go "My casting stat affects my action points! Oh, and bluff." Then again, if clerics and templars dont do that well in your game, go forit I guess. If I put it into use, it will merely be CHA + 1. No level bonuses, so as to mean Charisma is still the important factor. High level characters won't be able to still have plenty just by dint of being high level. This is why it's important they refill frequently enough.
Wayside 09-25-06, 02:23 PM	I incoporated a similar ruling to take away from cha being a dump stat. My group and i never really liked action points so we just went with flat re-rolls as our game mechanic. All characters have a number of Luck Points equal to their CHA bonus. If you have no bonus you have no luck points, and if you have a penalty you have that many unluck points. Unluck points are used by the DM as rerolls agaist the character. When you use a luck point to reroll the second roll must be better, and when you use an unluck point to reroll the second must be worse. Luck Points is a loose term, the player defines from what these rerolls come from wether it be divine intervention, luck, unluck, a curse, skill, etc...
Rhialto 09-25-06, 05:58 PM	My house magic system also includes some changes that severely weaken the spellcasters. It's written to be mostly low magic, but with the option of doing high powered magic if you don't mind insanity or the spell blowing up in your face. Without those changes to the magic system, I agree the option to use wisdom bonus would probably be too big. I may also reduce the base value of five and/or the level bonus, depending on how things work out.
Pellanor 09-26-06, 03:50 PM	While this may be a good house rule in a core environemnt, you have to be very careful once you take it out into the world of Splat books, where Charisma is the most synergistic stat. If you look at this thread you can see how much more you can get from charisma than from any other stat, if you put some effort into it. I've got a character who gets their Cha mod to AC, Attack, Damage, Saves, Saves vs Magic, and most of their skills, as well as using it as his primary casting attribute. Sure some of those have a limited number of uses per day, but of those, two of them are based on the charisma stat. The other is a Smite Attack, which you can make extra of by using an action point (which are now based on Cha). Just make sure that while you try to make Charisma a more Barbarian Friendly stat, you don't make it too uber for these kinds of characters.
zae 09-27-06, 05:05 AM	A good point, and definitely worth mentioning here for others who would consider the houserule. It didn't occur to me that you can (through spending feats or taking the right class levels, granted) remap everything to Charisma (several times for certain abilities), but that's because it doesn't show up in the games I play. But if other DMs were to see this thread and say "Ooh, that's a good idea" while forgetting that their party sorcerer has already mapped everything to Charisma...
rydi123 09-28-06, 03:22 AM	um, maybe i'm alone here, but i think charisma is one of the most powerful stats in the game, as long as you are playing with a good portion of the books on the market, and i don't really think it needs modification. charisma to saves, ac (multiple times), damage, attack/damage in epic, attac/ac/refsave in epic, charisma is extremely powerful. it just depends on the character. which is true for all stats really.
zae 09-28-06, 09:03 AM	True, but that involves taking specific classes and feats to change it into something useful. In and of itself, most of the party can dump it, whereas they cannot just do the same with Dexterity or Constitution. Charisma is the easiest stat to ignore. Beyond that, people rarely do take feats and classes to add Charisma to unusual things in the group I play in. The idea of this thread is to make it useful to have (and thus bad to have low) for anyone, regardless of how they want to spend their feats.
rydi123 09-28-06, 03:07 PM	i see what you are saying i guess, but i just see it as useful for only specific classes, much as any other stat. i play a paladin, i dump dex and pump up charisma. i play a fighter i bump up str/dex/con and ditch the mentals. etc. but anyway, if you want to add something to make charisma better, you could go with charisma as the governing stat for caster DC. keep wis/int on clerics/wizards for extra spells and max spells known, but use charisma to determine the 'oomph' the spell has, since charisma is supposed to be outwardly focused will/force of personality.
Patrick Draken-Korin 09-28-06, 08:12 PM	When you dump dex do you actually leave it at 8 and take a race that offers a dex penalty? Becuase in core D&D, and even with several slpat books, many players will do that with cha and no other stat. Strength? Okay to dump if you don't mind ignoreing melee comat and carrying capacity (spellcasters) Dexterity? 10 dexterity is usually called using it as a dump stat (except for those who refuse to min-max or those that need those points elsewhere) Constitution? Strangely, most adventurers are quite hearty, consiering the frail wizard cliche... then again raistlin was that cliche (power-mad evil mage, attempted deicide, fo those unfamiliar with him). Intelligence? Yup, especially games where skills are only rarely used or if you've already got a super-skillmonkey in the party. Wisdom? Again, 10 wisdom is using it as a dump stat, partially for will saves, and also becuase there are more wisdom based spellcasters than all arcane combined (in core, an I think across most splat books). Charisma? Yes indeedy, charisma is a prime choice as those few classes that NEED it seem to be the only ones that actually take it*. Intersting how the save-linked stats are the most valuable ones followed by the combat and skill bonus ones. You know every stat except charisma which is tied to nothing at all for affecting all classes. Ah, well. Many people play different way; these boards help share those ideas. At the very least I've gotten something from this, even if you'd already had something that worked as well. *funny story; all of us had low charisma scores, playing in a game where our role-playing was filtered by our check (a wonderous speech and a bad roll means your inflection was off and it sounded sarcastic). Anyway, I managed to insult the king, get us all thrown in jail and NOT save the princess. The guy behind the evil plot, thanked me afterward, while releasing us from the dungeon (and exiling us). Do'h:embarrass
rydi123 09-28-06, 11:40 PM	Constitution? Strangely, most adventurers are quite hearty, consiering the frail wizard cliche... then again raistlin was that cliche (power-mad evil mage, attempted deicide, fo those unfamiliar with him). please. attempted deicide? he succeeded. in his benevolence he chose to give up omnipotence and give the gods back thier power. do not sully the name of raistlin by insulting his power. :) (for those that don't know, raistlin is the only worthwhile or multi-dimensional character, except maybe khelendros, to come out of the dragonlance series)
AnonymousInternets 09-29-06, 12:25 AM	That person gets annoyed at how they have an ability score that affects: their spellcasting. The wizard gets more skillful, the cleric gets better Will saves, etc. Most of us did away with the "cross-class skills" idea, so everything is class for evryone. This makes them feel better about it. Suddenly, sorcerers can be good diplomats, or really scary, or great performers, or can abuse magic devices or whatever. Force of Personality feat (ComAdv) makes them even. Just thought I'd point that out. Dancing doesn't really have to be all that dexterous, and even quick dances aren't always good ones. When it comes down to it, the overall feel of the dance comes from the ability of the dancer to express himself/herself and move gracefully. With that said, Charisma is definitely a stat that could use a few bonuses. The most I've done when I DM is give NPC's defaultly higher attitude towards players with higher charisma. I'm open to new ideas, but I think charisma to AC is a little funky. Perhaps we could add it to initiative to represent assertiveness and confidence or something similar?
zae 09-29-06, 02:10 AM	Force of Personality feat (ComAdv) makes them even. Just thought I'd point that out. I'm well aware of the multitude of feats. I know people can *make* Charisma useful in combat, by taking the right feats, but that involves spending feats on it, whereas you don't need to spend anything to add your Dexterity mod to AC, Ref saves, ranged attacks and Initiative. Likewise, having the option to make it useful still won't stop most of the characters from dumping it. I'm open to new ideas, but I think charisma to AC is a little funky. Perhaps we could add it to initiative to represent assertiveness and confidence or something similar? See above for the Action Point idea.
Patrick Draken-Korin 09-29-06, 10:55 AM	Sorry, rydi123, you're right, it WAS more like this; Attempted, succeeded (actually mass deicide; he got most/all of them didn't he?), time-looped and prevented, so just attempted as Takhisis remembers it. Though yeah, I guess he still gets the credit. To summarize my previous post (#24) Yeah; everyone uses dexterity, constitution and wisdom (saves all, dex AC & init, con hp). Most use strength and intelligence (str melee attack & most physical damage, int skill points). And charisma? (crickest sound).[/summary] The ability to use a stat if you roll high is good, and charisma definelty qualifies, but it takes effort to actually get those feats/classes/races/items. The action points based off charisma means that some (though not too many) fighters and wizards would be out to boost thier charisma for a build and then go looking for feats to optimize it. If you don't like action points theres that luck save thread that's been around. Another that I either remember or just think I do, is the idea to have constitution OR charisma add bonus hp (whichever's higher). And I think there was a thread somewhere that offered an alternate sanity system where charisma was prevailant, but I didn't subscribe. The boost to chaisma doesn't have to be that big; it just must affect all cahatacers to be more than mere cricket noises.
Thelon Fairblade 09-29-06, 02:04 PM	Random interjection (didn't read whole thread): IMC, your CHA modifier directly affects your Action Points. When you roll an Action Die (i.e. spend an AP, roll a +d6), you add your CHA modifier. Sorcerers, Bards, and Paladins have better "luck" when they exert themselves, in general, but there is no reason why the rodue or wizard or fighter couldn't enjoy the same luck --- don't treat CHA as a dump stat! This rule doesn't manufacture new powers or break any existing balance anywhere (since APs are optoinal anyway), and doesn't change the base sstem that everyone uses. But the difference between the barbarian's 7 CHA and the battlesorcerer's 16 CHA was markedly apparent in the campaign, so much so that the barbarian spent her level 4 attribute point in CHA, to reduce her penalty!
Xeviat-DM 09-29-06, 05:12 PM	Random interjection (didn't read whole thread): IMC, your CHA modifier directly affects your Action Points. When you roll an Action Die (i.e. spend an AP, roll a +d6), you add your CHA modifier. Sorcerers, Bards, and Paladins have better "luck" when they exert themselves, in general, but there is no reason why the rodue or wizard or fighter couldn't enjoy the same luck --- don't treat CHA as a dump stat! This rule doesn't manufacture new powers or break any existing balance anywhere (since APs are optoinal anyway), and doesn't change the base sstem that everyone uses. But the difference between the barbarian's 7 CHA and the battlesorcerer's 16 CHA was markedly apparent in the campaign, so much so that the barbarian spent her level 4 attribute point in CHA, to reduce her penalty! I considered this option too, but ultimately I think basing action point numbers on Charisma is better, primarily because there are many things you can do with action points that don't involve action point rolls.
Pellanor 09-29-06, 05:32 PM	As has been said, all of the different stats see differnt amounts of use. Con is an all round useful stat, but in how many builds have you seen it as the highest stat out of all six? Almost every character has a good Con, but very few characters are centered around their con. Dex, Int and Wis are slightly more specialized. Most people try to avoid dumping them, since all characters benefit from them, at least a little. Str is an all-or-nothing stat. It's the primary stat for most Fighters and Barbarians, and a dump stat for most primary casters. Cha is the other all-or-nothing. It's the primary stat for Sorcs, and beneficial to a few other classes (Bards, Paladins Clerics and some Rogues), however to most other characters it's a dump stat. The big difference between Cha and Str is that the benifits of Str are a lot more apparent than those of Cha. In order to get the most out of a high Str score, you need to hit people in melee. In order to get the most out of a good Cha stat, you need to grab some divine power for turning and grace, then some arcana casting, and sprinkle a few feats on top for good measure. I think this is more of a problem than the fact that Cha isn't useful for non cha-based characters. I mean, who's worried about trying to make Str a more useful stat, so that al lthe Sorcs don't just dump it out of hand? One thing I do is make the -10 HP death threshold Cha based, to reflect you force of will keeping you alive. How many times do you read a book, where a major character is seriously injured, and they say that the only reason he's still alive is because he's so strong willed? I'm still working on the details for this, but I feel it should work out fairly well. The Cha based AP is also a good idea, but I think it could have too much of an impact in certain situations, especially with a Cha based character. If you end up using this house rule, make sure you post to let us know how it works. Are Cha based characters notably more powerful than they were before?
theotherdraxen 09-29-06, 05:32 PM	Not to railroad or anything, but someone mentioned my Luck Save thread (or mentioned one of the same name), so, since this is the Additional Uses for Charisma thread, I'd figured I'd add a link to it as my imput. (http://boards1.wizards.com/showthread.php?p=10224335#post10224335)