Alchemy-as-magic and Magic-as-alchemy [Archive] - Wizards Community

Alchemy-as-magic and Magic-as-alchemy [Archive] - Wizards Community

Post/Author/DateTime Post
Gnome_Dragon_Disciple
05-16-05, 05:07 PM As I type this, I am mourning the ending of Anime Central, and rife with a desire to DM a campaign in the setting of a specific anime which shall not be named as I am unsure wether or not it would violate the CoC.

There's only one problem... the D&D magic system can't replicate the effects of "Alchemy" in this particular series until the higher levels of transmutation magic. Indeed, the more I think about it, the more I think I'll have to create a new character class as well as a new system of magic for these "State Alchemists".

Unfortunately, both are things that I have no idea where to begin with, just the parameters I would like the end system to take into account.

1: I want what players can do with it to be defined in a free-form way, much like a system used by a certain game developer known for somewhat goth themes that uses entirely d10's, but keyed off of Alchemy checks that uses only ranks and int modifier with no synergy bonuses.

2: Craft (Alchemy) would be available only for Clerics and State Alchemists.

3: Aside from Clerics, all magic-based classes would be eliminated.

4: State Alchemists would have to select a specialty at level 3. Specialties include strength-enhancement, demolitions, element control (fire/ice/electericity/wind/earth), transmutation, etc.

5: Characters from the anime series in question will be referred to, but otherwise will be used as rewards for good roleplay ("Wow! We get to meet him!"). Some special abilities of these characters will be available through high-cost feats, like Circleless Alchemy.

6: As Alchemists level up, their alchemy would be able to transmute a larger total volume (going from being able to transmute one cubic foot at a time to four and so on), change the mass of the object to be transmuted by a larger margin (going from changing lead to gold with little net change in volume to changing sodium to gold with no change in volume), transmute things into more and more different things (going from being able to turn iron into swords to being able to change dirt into swords), and so on.

7: Law of Equivalent Exchange. An alchemist can only get out of the process what it puts in. To do things like change lead to gold, an alchemist would have to give up some ammount of internal energy to make up for the economic value of the gold. To change dirt to swords, the alchemist would need a much larger volume of dirt than iron, since the iron would have to be pulled from the dirt along with many other minerals. To create matter, the alchemist would also have to give up that same internal energy. Naturally, this "pool" of internal energy should increase with level, but I would also like to key it off of a character stat like HP or Intelligence, and have associated penalties to constitution when that energy pool reaches low levels.

8: I am looking for a high-powered system balanced by organiational red tape and daily limits on transmutation as per the series moreso than artificial limitations in the game system which did not exist in the series.

I'm not on any particular time line restraint, so this isn't really "urgent"... I'm just looking for help creating an alternative system and class for this specialized campaign, and when I do reveal it to my players, I'd prefer not to have my inexperience in creating classes and variants ruin the game... Any help at all would be much appreciated. ^_^
BeyondFated
05-16-05, 05:38 PM I have a few things to say.

First: Why aren't you mentioning the anime? I know what it is, but I won't mention it becasue you seem to have a reason for it to remain obscure.

Second: How close to the anime would you like the system to be. I could make one fairly quick if your not too picky.

Third: Have you taken into account the fact that Alchemists can simply stop at the "Second Step". Breaking it down, but not putting it back together? If abused, that would could cause major problems.

Fourth: Would you like State Alchemist to be a core class or PrC?

If you would like to, PM any details and I would love to help you out. I have thrown the same idea around a few times, and if we worked together, I could probably be motivated to actually make a suitable system.
Gnome_Dragon_Disciple
05-16-05, 07:15 PM 1: I'm not sure if it's against the CoC to refer to copyrighted material beyond WotC products and I'm too lazy to find out :P

2: I'd like it to be the exact same world, but I'm not sure if it will be in the same timeline as the series or after the end of the series. Basically, as close to the anime as possible, with roleplay being of utmost importance. No particular "spells" per se, more a matter of "I'd like to transmute the wall into a series of spikes to harm my opponent!" Something free-form to represent the improvisational nature of alchemy in the series.

3: I am aware of that, but that can only be done in an abusable way by someone who is skilled enough with circleless alchemy as to control which step they stop at. In fact, it could even be a sort of "spelltouched" feat which only alchemists who have seen it done could themselves do it. As for the abuse factor, red tape will be a major balancing factor. The main character of the series only had so much leeway because of extreme talent (after all, he attempted human alchemy at an incredibly young age and is the youngest State Alchemist in history). The characters won't have nearly as much freedom in that respect, and aborting the process at the second step may even be frowned upon.

4: State Alchemist would probably be a PrC given to those who pass the entrance exam, but there will also need to be a base Alchemist class. I'll most likely start the party off as being students of alchemy in a state-run school, somewhere around level 3.

And insofar as the collaboration goes, no reason not to keep this open to anyone else who wishes to chime in... Indeed, we'd benefit most from a wide net of input. ^-^
BeyondFated
05-16-05, 07:24 PM Follow up:

1) I checked, it doesn't say we can't mentioned other tradmarked items.

2) What you suggest may be a problem. But, I may have a few ideas brewin... don't want to post anything till I can get it down and polished, though.

3) You wouldn't need to know circless alchemy, just have the proper circle predrawn into your hands. And the idea of Red Tape bogging things down may not work, in the series a few people operated outside of the military, like Scar or Al. But, we can do something about it later.

4) Sounds good.
Gnome_Dragon_Disciple
05-16-05, 07:51 PM 3: True, people did operate outside of the military in the series, though that doesn't mean that Red Tape does not apply to them. One character int he series was hunted for a hefty chunk of time because of his use of that form of alchemy. The power of the State in the setting is far-reaching enough that even those who are not themselves members need to tie themselves to other organizations (even mercenary groups) and keep their methods clean in order to stay free and alive.

And besides, combat is hardly the focus of your average alchemist. Most are research alchemists, and even those who see action on a battlefield stay back as artillery with non-alchemist members of the military providing blanket fire.

And let's face it... In a setting in which an alchemist could blow up a building using the trace volitile elements found in people, there's way more out there for abuse than stopping after the breakdown stage. I'd rather leave the potential for abuse there and have the players know that if it's in the anime, they can potentially do it... Just so long as they can explain why they did it to either their instructor or their commanding officer... Maybe by making the players file short "Mission Reports" at the end of each session I could even have them roleplay the spin their character would put on the situation while I figure their base experience.
BeyondFated
05-16-05, 09:29 PM I see, and you bring up good points.

Anyway, I've been working on the core class, and basic Alchemy system, and will e-mail them to you shortly. I would appreciate you giving me timely feed-back, as well as adding anyhting you desire. Once we are both happy with it, I would be proud to post it on the boards.

Thus, if you could PM me your e-mail, I would be happy to send it to you. As of this typing, I have completed a VERY rough draft.
TLomon
05-17-05, 12:59 AM Sounds vaguely like Full Metal Alchemist. I've only caught a few episodes, though, so I am not sure.
Gnome_Dragon_Disciple
05-17-05, 01:44 AM *just got around to checking the CoC*

Yes, 'tis Fullmetal Alchemist... It's just such an interresting world, I want to run a campaign in it :D

Post/Author/DateTime	Post
Gnome_Dragon_Disciple 05-16-05, 05:07 PM	As I type this, I am mourning the ending of Anime Central, and rife with a desire to DM a campaign in the setting of a specific anime which shall not be named as I am unsure wether or not it would violate the CoC. There's only one problem... the D&D magic system can't replicate the effects of "Alchemy" in this particular series until the higher levels of transmutation magic. Indeed, the more I think about it, the more I think I'll have to create a new character class as well as a new system of magic for these "State Alchemists". Unfortunately, both are things that I have no idea where to begin with, just the parameters I would like the end system to take into account. 1: I want what players can do with it to be defined in a free-form way, much like a system used by a certain game developer known for somewhat goth themes that uses entirely d10's, but keyed off of Alchemy checks that uses only ranks and int modifier with no synergy bonuses. 2: Craft (Alchemy) would be available only for Clerics and State Alchemists. 3: Aside from Clerics, all magic-based classes would be eliminated. 4: State Alchemists would have to select a specialty at level 3. Specialties include strength-enhancement, demolitions, element control (fire/ice/electericity/wind/earth), transmutation, etc. 5: Characters from the anime series in question will be referred to, but otherwise will be used as rewards for good roleplay ("Wow! We get to meet him!"). Some special abilities of these characters will be available through high-cost feats, like Circleless Alchemy. 6: As Alchemists level up, their alchemy would be able to transmute a larger total volume (going from being able to transmute one cubic foot at a time to four and so on), change the mass of the object to be transmuted by a larger margin (going from changing lead to gold with little net change in volume to changing sodium to gold with no change in volume), transmute things into more and more different things (going from being able to turn iron into swords to being able to change dirt into swords), and so on. 7: Law of Equivalent Exchange. An alchemist can only get out of the process what it puts in. To do things like change lead to gold, an alchemist would have to give up some ammount of internal energy to make up for the economic value of the gold. To change dirt to swords, the alchemist would need a much larger volume of dirt than iron, since the iron would have to be pulled from the dirt along with many other minerals. To create matter, the alchemist would also have to give up that same internal energy. Naturally, this "pool" of internal energy should increase with level, but I would also like to key it off of a character stat like HP or Intelligence, and have associated penalties to constitution when that energy pool reaches low levels. 8: I am looking for a high-powered system balanced by organiational red tape and daily limits on transmutation as per the series moreso than artificial limitations in the game system which did not exist in the series. I'm not on any particular time line restraint, so this isn't really "urgent"... I'm just looking for help creating an alternative system and class for this specialized campaign, and when I do reveal it to my players, I'd prefer not to have my inexperience in creating classes and variants ruin the game... Any help at all would be much appreciated. ^_^
BeyondFated 05-16-05, 05:38 PM	I have a few things to say. First: Why aren't you mentioning the anime? I know what it is, but I won't mention it becasue you seem to have a reason for it to remain obscure. Second: How close to the anime would you like the system to be. I could make one fairly quick if your not too picky. Third: Have you taken into account the fact that Alchemists can simply stop at the "Second Step". Breaking it down, but not putting it back together? If abused, that would could cause major problems. Fourth: Would you like State Alchemist to be a core class or PrC? If you would like to, PM any details and I would love to help you out. I have thrown the same idea around a few times, and if we worked together, I could probably be motivated to actually make a suitable system.
Gnome_Dragon_Disciple 05-16-05, 07:15 PM	1: I'm not sure if it's against the CoC to refer to copyrighted material beyond WotC products and I'm too lazy to find out :P 2: I'd like it to be the exact same world, but I'm not sure if it will be in the same timeline as the series or after the end of the series. Basically, as close to the anime as possible, with roleplay being of utmost importance. No particular "spells" per se, more a matter of "I'd like to transmute the wall into a series of spikes to harm my opponent!" Something free-form to represent the improvisational nature of alchemy in the series. 3: I am aware of that, but that can only be done in an abusable way by someone who is skilled enough with circleless alchemy as to control which step they stop at. In fact, it could even be a sort of "spelltouched" feat which only alchemists who have seen it done could themselves do it. As for the abuse factor, red tape will be a major balancing factor. The main character of the series only had so much leeway because of extreme talent (after all, he attempted human alchemy at an incredibly young age and is the youngest State Alchemist in history). The characters won't have nearly as much freedom in that respect, and aborting the process at the second step may even be frowned upon. 4: State Alchemist would probably be a PrC given to those who pass the entrance exam, but there will also need to be a base Alchemist class. I'll most likely start the party off as being students of alchemy in a state-run school, somewhere around level 3. And insofar as the collaboration goes, no reason not to keep this open to anyone else who wishes to chime in... Indeed, we'd benefit most from a wide net of input. ^-^
BeyondFated 05-16-05, 07:24 PM	Follow up: 1) I checked, it doesn't say we can't mentioned other tradmarked items. 2) What you suggest may be a problem. But, I may have a few ideas brewin... don't want to post anything till I can get it down and polished, though. 3) You wouldn't need to know circless alchemy, just have the proper circle predrawn into your hands. And the idea of Red Tape bogging things down may not work, in the series a few people operated outside of the military, like Scar or Al. But, we can do something about it later. 4) Sounds good.
Gnome_Dragon_Disciple 05-16-05, 07:51 PM	3: True, people did operate outside of the military in the series, though that doesn't mean that Red Tape does not apply to them. One character int he series was hunted for a hefty chunk of time because of his use of that form of alchemy. The power of the State in the setting is far-reaching enough that even those who are not themselves members need to tie themselves to other organizations (even mercenary groups) and keep their methods clean in order to stay free and alive. And besides, combat is hardly the focus of your average alchemist. Most are research alchemists, and even those who see action on a battlefield stay back as artillery with non-alchemist members of the military providing blanket fire. And let's face it... In a setting in which an alchemist could blow up a building using the trace volitile elements found in people, there's way more out there for abuse than stopping after the breakdown stage. I'd rather leave the potential for abuse there and have the players know that if it's in the anime, they can potentially do it... Just so long as they can explain why they did it to either their instructor or their commanding officer... Maybe by making the players file short "Mission Reports" at the end of each session I could even have them roleplay the spin their character would put on the situation while I figure their base experience.
BeyondFated 05-16-05, 09:29 PM	I see, and you bring up good points. Anyway, I've been working on the core class, and basic Alchemy system, and will e-mail them to you shortly. I would appreciate you giving me timely feed-back, as well as adding anyhting you desire. Once we are both happy with it, I would be proud to post it on the boards. Thus, if you could PM me your e-mail, I would be happy to send it to you. As of this typing, I have completed a VERY rough draft.
TLomon 05-17-05, 12:59 AM	Sounds vaguely like Full Metal Alchemist. I've only caught a few episodes, though, so I am not sure.
Gnome_Dragon_Disciple 05-17-05, 01:44 AM	just got around to checking the CoC Yes, 'tis Fullmetal Alchemist... It's just such an interresting world, I want to run a campaign in it :D