Post/Author/DateTime	Post
Xeviat-DM 01-02-06, 09:56 AM	One part of D&D's stats that has always seemed odd to me was the fact that Dexterity measured speed and coordination. While I think the two are loosely tied (much like strength and con are loosely tied), there are examples of people who have one but not the other. A marksman is undeniably dexterous, but they may not be agile (it is beneficial to have fast reflexes, though, but your reflexes don't make you a better shot). Similarly, the fact that Wisdom encompasses your senses and your mental resilience seem odd. I can see some correlation between the two (insane people often have what could be considered a sensory disorder), I don't think the two are directly linked. Someone could have a lot of experience but still be imperceptive. Without going into the last reason I needed to add these two ability scores to my games, I'd like some help making it balanced. I know it's odd and there are people who won't agree with it, I'm not looking for approval (though some would be nice); I'm looking for balance. I will list what each ability score does, as well as any alternate rules I'm adding which may directly affect the function of ability scores. Strength This is a measure of a character's physical power. You add your strength modifier to: Damage rolls when using a melee weapon, a thrown weapon, or a composite bow. Off-hand attacks receive only 1/2 your strength bonus or twice a strength penalty, while two-handed attacks receive 1 1/2 times your strength bonus or 1/2 a strength penalty. Climb and Swim checks Strength checks for breaking objects through force, not an attack (such as bursting chains or bending an iron bar). Grapple, Trip, Overrun, and Bull Rush checks (both to perform and to resist). Your strength score also determines your carrying capacity, and determines the size of weapons you can wield without a penalty (if you wield a weapon your strength score is not high enough to wield, you suffer a -2 penalty to hit; light weapons require a 7 strength, one-handed weapons require an 11 strength, and two-handed weapons require a 15 strength, and these numbers are modified by +/- four for every size category the character is larger/smaller than medium; note: a double weapon can be treated as a one-handed or a two-handed weapon while making a single attack, and is treated as two one-handed weapons for the purpose of determining strength requirements when wielded in conjunction with the two-weapon fighting maneuver). Dexterity This is a measure of a character's hand-eye coordination. You add your dexterity modifier to: Melee and Ranged attack rolls. Balance, Escape Artist, Hide, Move Silently, Open Lock, Ride, Slight of Hand, and Use Rope checks. If higher than your strength, checks to resist Trips and Overruns. Constitution This is a measure of a character's ability to resist and withstand injury, poison, and disease. You add your constitution modifier to: Each roll of a Hit Die (though a penalty can never drop a result below 1). Fortitude saving throws. Concentration checks. Endurance checks to resist fatigue, exhaustion, and damage from environmental effects. If a character's constitution increases, they gain temporary hit points equal to 1/level/point of constitution gain; if a character's constitution decreases, they only loose hit points if their new maximum (equal to their normal maximum minus 1/level/point of constitution loss) is lower than their current hit points (this was done because barbarians lose some power because strength is not tied to to hit anymore, and to make Bear's Endurance more useful). Agility This is a measure of a character's reflexes. You add your agility modifier to: Armor Class (AC), provided that a character is not flat-footed or helpless; the amount of a character's Agility modifier that they can apply to their AC is limited by the armor they are wearing and their current encumbrance rating. Reflex saving throws. Jump and Tumble checks. Intelligence This is a measure of a character's memory and ability to learn, as well as a character's common sense. You add your intelligence modifier to: The number of languages a character knows at 1st level. The number of skill points gained each level. Appraise, Craft, Decipher Script, Disable Device, Forgery, Knowledge, and Search checks. Note: Spellcraft checks are no longer required to identify scrolls; instead a Knowledge check, appropriate to the maker of the scroll, is required. Knowledge checks are used to scribe scrolls as well. Wisdom This is a measure of a character's mental resilience and mental health, as well as a character's instincts. You add your wisdom modifier to: Will saving throws. Autohypnosis, Heal, and Profession. Perception This is a measure of a character's awareness and senses. You add your perception modifier to: Initiative checks. Listen, Sense Motive, Spot, and Spellcraft checks. Charisma This is a measure of a character's force of personality. You add your charisma modifier to: Bluff, Diplomacy, Disguise, Gather Information, Handle Animal, Intimidate, Perform, and Use Magic Device checks. Warding: With an item a spirit creature is fearful of, such as the holy symbol of a deity for an undead, or an item made from the material that can bypass the damage reduction of an Outsider or Fey, a character can make a warding check (d20+level+cha mod) to attempt to keep the spirit creature at bay. A cleric's turn/rebuke ability is a more refined version of this, but uses the same mechanic. My worries are that Wisdom did not survive the separation into Wisdom and Perception. As a note, all casters use all mental ability scores in my games, so don't worry about bringing them into the equation. What do you think, do these seem balanced?
Pz.Az.04Maus 01-02-06, 10:14 AM	You summed it up pretty good, and I might need this for adding comeliness, *yoink.* Wisdom does seem to have a little impact, but I wouldn't mind.
RaspK FOG 01-02-06, 10:49 AM	Actually, while I have done something similar to this, you should know that this makes it something apart from d20. In an interview in the Dragon magazine, it was noted that the d20 mechanic revolves around 3 rules only: having the standard 6 ability scores, rolling higher being better than rolling lower, and the whole Difficulty Class (DC) thing.
Luega 01-02-06, 11:04 AM	Ah, reminds me of the good ol' days. Y'know, back when we had two stats for each stat (eh, that didn't make nearly as much sense as it did in my own head). The old timers among you might know what I'm talking about, but here's the short version; There was a variant system in one of the optional books (we're talking AD&D here, if memory serves) that divided every stat into two minor variants of the parent stat. Much like you have now divided DEX into dexterity and agility. The two sub.stats then governed a different part of what the primary stat did (they didn't call it Advanced Dungeons and Dragons for nothing). What I'm concerned about with your system is, as you said yourself, WIS is horribly weak. It needs something more. Also, how about just spilt every stat into two sub-stats. I mean' as long as you're at it. It might make sense logically, but it complicates matters (needlessly, perhaps). Besides, one of the core concepts of d20 is its six ability scores. They've been around since it's inception 30 years ago (well, 31 now).
Sigurd van Norhusen 01-02-06, 11:57 AM	Actually, while I have done something similar to this, you should know that this makes it something apart from d20. In an interview in the Dragon magazine, it was noted that the d20 mechanic revolves around 3 rules only: having the standard 6 ability scores, rolling higher being better than rolling lower, and the whole Difficulty Class (DC) thing. Seriously? I knew that D20 was pretty limiting, but that explains a lot. Anyway @OP: Maybe you'd like to change Intelligence and Wisdom into Education and Intuition? Education would be a measure of a character's memory and ability to learn and process information, Intuition would be common sense as well as a character's instincts. Mental Health should not have an attribue, and mental resilience would be better off being keyed to Charisma.
Phoenix Knight 01-02-06, 12:54 PM	Xeviat, I think Escape Artist should be a measure of agility, not coordination. You could also argue that Balance should be, as well.
Thelon Fairblade 01-03-06, 10:49 AM	Luega, that was "Skills & Powers", for 2e. Also similar to the stat concept in Ars Magica. The balance issue I see here is that now all characters must have Dexterity in order to hit. It is no longer possible to have the dextrous swashbuckler (with DEX and Finesse) competing with the hulking barbarian (with raw STR)... everyone must be the swashbuckler. The poor Fighter just became even more MAD, needing 4 stats to compete instead of 3. This also steps partially outside the "AC" concept in D&D - STR provides a bonus to "hit" because it represents "striking hard enough to injure through the person's armor/defenses". In D&D, any attack that exceeds the "touch AC" is a hit... but no damage results until the full armored AC is breached. If you are changing this mechanic (quite possible, given the board we are discussing this on!), then this change is a bit more palatable. Regarding WIS and PER... I'm of two minds on the subject. I can totally understand someone with low "common sense" or intuition being highly perceptive... but not processing the information gained from the senses correctly or at all. "How about that, a completely inappropriate bird sound in the silent darkness... neat! What was I doing?" = Spot/Listen penalty for low WIS. But I can also see someone with incredible Willpower (high bonus to Will saves) being totally obtuse about the world around them, or vice versa ("flower child" stereotype).
Ruhl-Than Sage 01-04-06, 12:42 AM	Shouldn't Balance be under agility instead of dexterity? And used for resisting trips and overruns. I'm not seeing them under your definition of dexterity. I could also see it as being the stat for Ride, Move Silently, and Hide, but that's a bit more debatable. Also, have you ever considered composite or (secondary) stats. You could for instance derive Willpower (bonus to will saves/turning check) from a composite of Wisdom and Charisma. Frame (used to determine carrying capacity/encumbrance and Fort saves) from a composite of Strength and Constitution. And Reaction (used to determine Ref saves/Initiative) form a composite of Dexterity and Intelligence. Then Perception (used for various skill checks) could be a composite of Wisdom and Intelligence. Weapon Skill (used for attack rolls) could be a composite of Strength and Dexterity. And Appearance (used for various ... umm... appearance related purposes) could be a composite of Consitution and Charisma. Obviously there are a lot of other ways to do this.
nonsi 01-04-06, 02:53 AM	Ok Xeviat-DM, you made a really good job, but I see a few required changes, if you'r going for the reallistic feel & touch. according to the explanation you provided, of which I quite agree with . . . 1. Balance, Climb and Swim should be related to agility (there are countless examples of slugish powerhouses). 2. Use Magic Device should be related to intelligence (you use it propperly rather than "convince" it). 3. Disable Device should be related to dexterity (you found it, now you need accuracy). 4. Search should be related to perception (very similar to Spot, even though it's a much more methodical action). I'd also add that each +2 agility modifier increases movement by 5 feet. but again, great job :thumbsup:
starfire311 01-04-06, 09:02 AM	I am not going to debate whether or not I like the idea of adding these 2 stats, just wanted to say I am not a big fan of it, but I will assume you have your reasons and this would not be a game breaker for me if I were playing in your game. Some questions, maybe you mentioned this and I missed it though. Wisdom based spell casters, what stat do they use now. Monks what stat do they use for their AC bonus? Will you be using Armor to provide an AC bonus or AR as DR?
MasterOfPsychic 01-04-06, 09:53 AM	Well, it have flaws, but I think it's better than normal once it gets balanced... However, those of you who seem to think that D20 is a lot about 6 abilities, you got to be wrong.. 3rdE and the like D20 needs classes, skills and feats! of even old versoins used classes as the main component.. and levels of course... Haven't any of you seen a old 2e charsheet, with 8 abillities, insetead of 6? The one I saw had COM and PER insteas... Per had to be personality of perception, but I have no idea of what com might be...
RaspK FOG 01-04-06, 10:48 AM	Well, it have flaws, but I think it's better than normal once it gets balanced... However, those of you who seem to think that D20 is a lot about 6 abilities, you got to be wrong.. 3rdE and the like D20 needs classes, skills and feats! of even old versoins used classes as the main component.. and levels of course... Haven't any of you seen a old 2e charsheet, with 8 abillities, insetead of 6? The one I saw had COM and PER insteas... Per had to be personality of perception, but I have no idea of what com might be... Excuse me, but using a d20 as your main die under a system is not the same as the "d20 System;" while the forum I link you to is Greek, the first passage, mine, is written in English, transcribing said material from Dragon magazine (to all mods who might find themselves jumbled with said post on that forum: just send me a delete-that-aberration note and I'll do so immediately): http://mythical.no-ip.org/forums/index.php?showtopic=3051
starfire311 01-04-06, 01:37 PM	Well, it have flaws, but I think it's better than normal once it gets balanced... However, those of you who seem to think that D20 is a lot about 6 abilities, you got to be wrong.. 3rdE and the like D20 needs classes, skills and feats! of even old versoins used classes as the main component.. and levels of course... Haven't any of you seen a old 2e charsheet, with 8 abillities, insetead of 6? The one I saw had COM and PER insteas... Per had to be personality of perception, but I have no idea of what com might be... on that sheet PER was probably perception while COM was most-likely Comliness and true there was always that Skills and Powers pile, that subdivided each attribute. So for each attribute you had 2 sub stats IE strength had Muscle and Stamina, Dexterity had Aim and Agility, I thinkthis is the kind of thing the OP is getting at he is subdividing Wis and Dex into 2 new stats I want to say that under S&P wisdom was divided into Willpower and Perception or something like that. Granted S&P had some good ideas, but it lent itself far too much to the munchkins. Way too easy to Min/Max and abuse.
RaspK FOG 01-04-06, 03:52 PM	Granted S&P had some good ideas, but it lent itself far too much to the munchkins. Way too easy to Min/Max and abuse. Fully agreed; but it was a beautiful read, especially when people start making a fuss about wizards being less than competent with a sword (then again, said people also have to blabber around how things should always be accomplished on the first try with no mistakes, which means that they would off-handedly disregarded the reason for the publication of the book anyway)...
Xeviat-DM 01-05-06, 02:52 AM	I want to thank everyone for the timely responses. First I'll answer the questions, then I'll comment on the comments, then I'll explain myself a little more: Wisdom based spell casters, what stat do they use now. [/b]There will be two spellcasters in my setting, a divine caster and an arcane caster. Spells are associated with the four elements (Air, Earth, Fire, Water), and each element has a pair of ability scores (Air = Agility, Perception; Earth = Constitution, Wisdom; Fire = Strength, Charisma; Water = Dexterity, Intelligence). When casting spells, your DCs are determined by the mental ability score tied to the element you are casting with. Monks what stat do they use for their AC bonus? Perception; the Monk AC bonus is about extending your senses briefly into the future (hense why it applies even while you're flatfooted), and thus it is tied to the sense's ability score. Will you be using Armor to provide an AC bonus or AR as DR? AC and DR. Luega, I'm less concerned with tradition and more concerned with the mechanics of my games fitting the description of it. As it stands, I think all of my Mental ability scores are a little on the weak side; each has one ability and a number of skills. Wisdom's problem is that it has too few skills. Sigurd van Norhusen, by mental health I meant resilience; I don't want to call Wisdom "Will Power" because that implies offense. If you pair up the ability scores (how I've done my elements), even in standard D&D, you'll notice a dicotomy: Charisma is mental Strength, Intelligence is mental Dexterity, and Wisdom is mental Constitution. Agility and Constitution are defensive abilities, as Wisdom and Perception are passive traits. Phoenix Knight, Dexterity is about moving precisely, Agility is about moving quickly. Escape Artist falls somewhere between the two in my mind, but I placed it with Dexterity because it seems more about precision than speed. Likewise, Balance is about precision, not speed. Thelon Fairblade, like I said at the beginning of this post, I intend to use the Armor as AC and DR approach from Unearthed Arcana. Now, I would like to, eventually, do AC and damage like this: If an attack fails to hit the touch AC, the attack is a complete miss; if it meets or beats the touch AC, but not the full AC, it's a hit but DR applies; if it beats the full AC, it ignores DR. Currently, though, I intend to have threats bypass DR granted by Armor and Natural Armor (I will be using the wound/vitality system, so I still need to consider if I want DR to apply vs. wound damage or not). And about swashbucklers: swashbucklers have high Dex and Agi, but a good well rounded fighter should have strength and dex. But with armor as DR, AC will be a bit lower, and I think that will balance the fact that some character's to hits will be lower. Ruhl-Than Sage: About using Dex to resist Trips and Overrun's; I did it for trips because I assumed it would be similar to regaining your balance; I didn't think of it as wriggling free. Now that I reconsider, the fact that Agility is suposed to be defensive while Dexterity is agressive, those abilities should move to Agility. I understand your notion for composite abilities, but I don't think it would work well for me. There's potential for having skills that use different abilites depending on the circumstances, but I'm not sure. And a quick note: Charisma is not physical appearance in my games; it helps "attractiveness" because someone with a higher charisma is going to carry themselves and appear better looking, but your physical appearance is largely dictated by your physical ability scores (strong people are taller and heavier, agile people are lighter ...). 1. Balance, Climb and Swim should be related to agility (there are countless examples of slugish powerhouses). Climb and Swim are more functions of strength; though I could see creatures with natural climb or swim speeds having the option to use Agility. Again, I think balance is about coordination still. 2. Use Magic Device should be related to intelligence (you use it propperly rather than "convince" it). Perhaps, but it will probably use all four mentals depending on the element of the ability you are trying to activate or emulate. 3. Disable Device should be related to dexterity (you found it, now you need accuracy). Disable Device seems to be more of the knowledge of how to take something apart rather than the coordination needed to do it. The same could be said about Open Lock though (why aren't they the same skill by the way? Isn't unlocking a lock the same thing as disabling it?). 4. Search should be related to perception (very similar to Spot, even though it's a much more methodical action). I keep considering it, but for now I assumed Search was more about knowing what to look for than simply spotting something. I could be wrong though. I'd also add that each +2 agility modifier increases movement by 5 feet. Considering something like that too. But that's another issue.[b]
starfire311 01-05-06, 09:54 AM	Will you be using Armor to provide an AC bonus or AR as DR? AC and DR. The reason I asked this was because of the removing of the melee attack bonus from strength under RAW it makes sense that strength provides and attack bonus, because it is being used to overcome armor. If you are using Armor as DR like you are, it makes sense to remove the attack bonus from strength.
Sir Knight 01-05-06, 11:57 AM	THe problem is that you are being too hung up on the names of the abilities. I suggest trying to get over that inhibition and you won't need to add extra mechanics that fundamentally change the system and add a layer of complication that is unneeded.
starfire311 01-05-06, 01:35 PM	THe problem is that you are being too hung up on the names of the abilities. I suggest trying to get over that inhibition and you won't need to add extra mechanics that fundamentally change the system and add a layer of complication that is unneeded. Actually I think he has problems with the notion that Accuracy and agility are linked, really why should an olympic gymnist and an olympic archer have the same agility and same accuracy. You could say they do, but where the archer specialized in getting better with a bow, the Gymnast was spending feats on Acrobatics, and putting ranks in tumbling. He also has trouble saying that just because you are good at noticing details does not mean you have a strong force of Will.
RaspK FOG 01-05-06, 01:58 PM	The following is the article I mentioned (which most seem to have ignored): What the heck is a d20 system? by Ryan Dancey [...] The idea behind the d20 System is pretty straightforward. As a part of designing the new version of Dungeons & Dragons, Wizards of the Coast spent thousands of hours interviewing players, playtesting rules, and carefully examining the core assumptions and systems of the Dungeons & Dragons game. After going through that process, the design team felt that they had established a long and detailed list of strong rules and simple philosophies about what made a roleplaying game fun to play and easy to learn. That material was not a complete game in and of itself, but rather it was the foundation for many possible games, exploring many possible worlds and genres. In time, that material was given the formal title "d20 System," and Wizards of the Coast decided to make it the basis for all of its roleplaying game efforts. We created a special logo for the d20 System and put it on all of our new roleplaying products, starting with the new core books for Dungeons & Dragons. At its most basic, the d20 System means: Characters are defined by six basic attributes; Strength, Intelligence, Wisdom, Dexterity, Constitution, and Charisma, with scores ranging from 1 to infinity. Rolling higher is always better than rolling lower. To see if a character's action is successful, roll a d20, add some modifiers, and compare to a target number. If the result is equal to or higher than the target number, the action was a success. Many of the d20 System games that Wizards of the Coast will be publishing will have some other similarities: Three kinds of saving throws (Fortitude, Reflex, and Willpower). Skills (things you get better at over time) & Feats (things your character has that make her special, but that don't improve with practice). Hit points and Armor Class. A d20 System game might have classes and levels, or it might have some other system for tracking character advancement. It might use Dungeons & Dragons standard hit points, or it might have Wound and Vitality Points, as in the Star Wars Roleplaying Game; or it might have a whole new system. It might have D&D-style "fire and forget" magic spells, or it might have a whole new system like that showcased in the upcoming Wheel of Time Roleplaying Game. Armor Class might be the same system seen in Dungeons & Dragons, or it might be a system that models how much damage armor can "soak" from a hit. d20 System games will be designed for science fiction, techno-thrillers, superheroes, many flavors of fantasy, and as many other combinations pf worlds and genres as the designers can imagine. As long as most of the basic rules are similar to the other d20 System games, it will be relatively easy for a player who's already familiar with one d20 System game to quickly learn another. A game publisher using one basic set or rules for all of its games is not a new idea. The concept first gained widespread application in the late 1980s, and several companies, like White Wolf (the Storyteller System), Steve Jackson (GURPS), Palladium (Palladium RPG), and AEG (AEG House System) have shown that there can be tremendous advantages to focusing on a core set of rules. Another big advantage is that players who learn to love one game in such a family have an easier time learning the other games from that publisher - meaning that each new game has a ready-made potential audience of players and game masters. [...] [End of article.] Ryan Dancey is the spiritual godfather of the d20 System movement. Formerly Dungeons & Dragons Brand Manager, he recently left Wizards of the Coast to found Organized Play, Inc. (www.organizedplay.com).
starfire311 01-05-06, 02:36 PM	The following is the article I mentioned (which most seem to have ignored): What the heck is a d20 system? by Ryan Dancey [...] The idea behind the d20 System is pretty straightforward. As a part of designing the new version of Dungeons & Dragons, Wizards of the Coast spent thousands of hours interviewing players, playtesting rules, and carefully examining the core assumptions and systems of the Dungeons & Dragons game. After going through that process, the design team felt that they had established a long and detailed list of strong rules and simple philosophies about what made a roleplaying game fun to play and easy to learn. That material was not a complete game in and of itself, but rather it was the foundation for many possible games, exploring many possible worlds and genres. In time, that material was given the formal title "d20 System," and Wizards of the Coast decided to make it the basis for all of its roleplaying game efforts. We created a special logo for the d20 System and put it on all of our new roleplaying products, starting with the new core books for Dungeons & Dragons. At its most basic, the d20 System means: Characters are defined by six basic attributes; Strength, Intelligence, Wisdom, Dexterity, Constitution, and Charisma, with scores ranging from 1 to infinity. Rolling higher is always better than rolling lower. To see if a character's action is successful, roll a d20, add some modifiers, and compare to a target number. If the result is equal to or higher than the target number, the action was a success. Many of the d20 System games that Wizards of the Coast will be publishing will have some other similarities: Three kinds of saving throws (Fortitude, Reflex, and Willpower). Skills (things you get better at over time) & Feats (things your character has that make her special, but that don't improve with practice). Hit points and Armor Class. A d20 System game might have classes and levels, or it might have some other system for tracking character advancement. It might use Dungeons & Dragons standard hit points, or it might have Wound and Vitality Points, as in the Star Wars Roleplaying Game; or it might have a whole new system. It might have D&D-style "fire and forget" magic spells, or it might have a whole new system like that showcased in the upcoming Wheel of Time Roleplaying Game. Armor Class might be the same system seen in Dungeons & Dragons, or it might be a system that models how much damage armor can "soak" from a hit. d20 System games will be designed for science fiction, techno-thrillers, superheroes, many flavors of fantasy, and as many other combinations pf worlds and genres as the designers can imagine. As long as most of the basic rules are similar to the other d20 System games, it will be relatively easy for a player who's already familiar with one d20 System game to quickly learn another. A game publisher using one basic set or rules for all of its games is not a new idea. The concept first gained widespread application in the late 1980s, and several companies, like White Wolf (the Storyteller System), Steve Jackson (GURPS), Palladium (Palladium RPG), and AEG (AEG House System) have shown that there can be tremendous advantages to focusing on a core set of rules. Another big advantage is that players who learn to love one game in such a family have an easier time learning the other games from that publisher - meaning that each new game has a ready-made potential audience of players and game masters. [...] [End of article.] Ryan Dancey is the spiritual godfather of the d20 System movement. Formerly Dungeons & Dragons Brand Manager, he recently left Wizards of the Coast to found Organized Play, Inc. (www.organizedplay.com). I read the article, and those were just his opinions, there was no fact in it. The only fact was that he was incorrect when stating that the stats range from 1 to infinity, and that there are 6 stats. There are clear exceptions to this. If he saw someone introduce to new stats and added it to the basic 6 and used all the rest of the rules in the core ooks, I doubt he would say that it is not a D20 system. The main thing that makes D20, D20, is the skill resolution system, of having a target number, rolling a d20 and adding some modifiers to deterimine success or failure, that is my interpretation of what is d20, and my opinion.
RaspK FOG 01-05-06, 03:14 PM	I read the article, and those were just his opinions, there was no fact in it. The only fact was that he was incorrect when stating that the stats range from 1 to infinity, and that there are 6 stats. There are clear exceptions to this. If he saw someone introduce to new stats and added it to the basic 6 and used all the rest of the rules in the core ooks, I doubt he would say that it is not a D20 system. The main thing that makes D20, D20, is the skill resolution system, of having a target number, rolling a d20 and adding some modifiers to deterimine success or failure, that is my interpretation of what is d20, and my opinion. Err, you are pretty much saying that one of the designers of the system doesn't know what the system he was an integral part of is all about... :rolleyes: In any case, I never said this article was very recent: it actually was published somewhere near the release of 3rd Edition (even before that, if I am correct), and back then playing an undead or construct was a no-no; sacred cows and all that... Furthermore, the fact that an ability score can be lowered to 0 is not relevant, since this is not a default condition (no creature is defined as normally having an ability score of 0, since this either leaves you helpless or plainly and simply dead), and creatures with nonabilities still have the nonability recorded (having a nonability still has you defined by that ability to a certain extent; see rules on nonabilities). Apart from the "skill resolution system," everything else you mentioned is also mentioned in the article.
starfire311 01-05-06, 03:53 PM	Err, you are pretty much saying that one of the designers of the system doesn't know what the system he was an integral part of is all about... :rolleyes: Pretty much yeah, I bet if you were to ask him today, his opinion has probably changed from what it was then... not saying I know what it is, just saying it is probably different. That article is just his opinion, and I don't think he thought long and hard on it before saying it. I would also think that other designers would have different opinions on the subject. I don't think that he or really any other designer would say changing the six stats to 8 in and of itself is enough to make it no longer D20. Heck in one of my games I changed how stats worked I made it so 0= average and -5 = immobile/helpless/dead and there were no modifiers you just used the stat instead of the modifier. I also halved the effectiveness of all stat enhancing items/abilities, according to his definition it would no longer be d20 because my stats didnt range from 1 to infinity.
Xeviat-DM 01-05-06, 04:09 PM	Again, my magic system requires there be four mental scores and four physical scores. I chose to separate the scores that I did because I've seen it separated like that in other systems (L5R and many CRPGs use four mentals and four physicals, though they often use Luck as a mental since they don't have sensory skills). What could be altered with the four mentals to make them more balanced with each other? Will the Armor as AC+DR method fix the fact that some characters will have lower to hits, and help strength to remain important? Also, this allows me to alter the racial ability score adjustments, so they make more sense in my games.
Lord Welkerfan 01-05-06, 11:26 PM	Two things you could add to the wisdom scores: If you are willing to use action points, give one of the Wis mod number of points per level (or 5 + Wis mod action points). Alternatively, you couls have one of the Wis mods provid a bonus to touch AC.
Xeviat-DM 01-07-06, 02:51 AM	I don't use action points, and if I did I'd tie them to charisma before I'd tie theim to Wisdom or Perception. Is it the general consensious that the following abilities are not balanced with each other: +1 bonus language at first level, +1 skill points per level. +1 Will save +1 Initiative +1 to "Ward" checks to hold spirit creatures at bay. Looking at that, a feat to grant +4 initiative and a feat to grant +4 to turn checks is fine, while a feat grants only +2 will save, and a feat grants a whole 5 skill points. Again, thanks everyone for the participation and ideas. I just need a few more ideas to balance out the mentals, and to insure that the physicals are balanced.
Lord Welkerfan 01-07-06, 10:14 AM	What do you think of having Wisdom provide a bonus to touch AC?
Cymraegmorgan 01-07-06, 04:21 PM	I would move UMD and UPD to Wisdom, and Disable Device to Perception. Using a magical/psionic device seems to fit ones instincts, whereas ones senses and awareness are the best tools for the delicate task of disabling a device.
Lord Welkerfan 01-07-06, 10:42 PM	Something that might help to balance these is that you could stop tying a single ability score to saving throws. Instead, key each individual saving throw (for each time) to a specific score. (I.e. Saving throws to think quickly are Will saves tied to Agility, Will saves to resist Charm spells are tied to Charisma, Will saves to fear based effects are tied to Wisdom) This allows you some more wiggle room for balancing, as you can put some more powerful things into the Wisdom score, since it no longer has will save bonuses.
nonsi 01-08-06, 02:49 AM	Optional rules for ability distribution: Strength: This is a measure of a character's physical power. You add your STR modifier to: • Damage rolls when using a melee weapon, a thrown weapon, or a composite bow. Off-hand attacks receive only 1/2 your STR bonus or twice a STR penalty, while two-handed attacks receive 1 1/2 times your strength bonus or 1/2 a strength penalty. • STR checks for breaking objects through force, not an attack (such as bursting chains or bending an iron bar). • Grapple, Trip, Overrun, and Bull Rush checks (both to perform and to resist). Your STR score also determines your carrying capacity, and determines the size of weapons you can wield without a penalty (if you wield a weapon your STR score is not high enough to wield, you suffer a -2 penalty to hit; light weapons require a 7 STR, one-handed weapons and short pole weapons require an 11 STR, and two-handed blades / maces / clubs / axes and reach weapons require a 15 STR. These numbers are modified by +/- 4 for each size category the character is larger/smaller than medium. Dexterity: This is a measure of a character's hand-eye coordination. You add your DEX modifier to: • Melee and Ranged attack rolls (note that this eliminates Weapon Finesse and requires modifications to Power Attack). • Disable Device, Escape Artist, Hide, Move Silently, Open Locks, Ride, Sleight of Hand and Use Rope checks. • If higher than your STR, checks to resist Bull Rush, Trips and Overruns. Constitution: This is a measure of a character's ability to resist and withstand injury, poison, and disease. You add your CON modifier to: • Each roll of a Hit Die (though a penalty can never drop a result below 1). • Fortitude saving throws. • Concentration, Drinking*, Food Tasting* and Swim checks. • Endurance checks to resist fatigue, exhaustion, and damage from environmental effects. Agility: This is a measure of a character's energy level, his reflexes and his athleticism. You add your agility modifier to: • Armor Class (AC), provided that a character is not flat-footed or helpless; the amount of a character's Agility modifier that they can apply to their AC is limited by the armor they are wearing and their current encumbrance rating. • Reflex saving throws. • Balance, Climb, Jump and Tumble checks. • For each +3 agility modifier increase movement by 5 feet. • All "quick" creatures that gained DEX bonus - using this system, they gain agility bonus instead. Intelligence: This is a measure of a character's memory and ability to learn, as well as a character's common sense. You add your INT modifier to: • The number of languages a character knows at 1st level. • The number of skill points gained each level. • Appraise, Decipher Script, Forgery, Knowledge and Use Magic Device checks. Wisdom: This is a measure of a character's mental resilience, mental health and application of experience to a variety of tasks. You add your WIS modifier to: • Will saving throws. • Autohypnosis, Craft, Heal and Profession. Perception: This is a measure of a character's senses and awareness to details. You add your perception modifier to: • Initiative checks. • Listen, Innuendo*, read lips*, Search, Sense Motive, Spellcraft, and Spot checks. Charisma: This is a measure of a character's force of personality. You add your charisma modifier to: • Bargain*, Bluff (& taunt), Diplomacy, Disguise, Gather Information, Handle Animal, Intimidate and Perform checks. • Certain saves that are checked with CHA modifier. • d20 checks that are based on pure luck. * A new skill to be defined. Note: Under this concept, it would be reasonable to allow ability increase every 3 levels.
Xeviat-DM 01-08-06, 01:58 PM	Nonsi, I'm still not sure that climb and swim shouldn't be strength. I say they should be strength, and climb should have a duration like swim (before endurance checks are required). Constitution doesn't make someone a faster swimmer, just a longer swimmer. Why did you change Craft to Wisdom? Craft is a measure of creativity and problem solving, isn't it? Artists and Crafters tend to be quite intelligent, though they aren't always knowlegable (knowledge is a measure of the knowledge skill, while your raw intelligence score seems closer to "common sense"). And I'm not too sure about the skills you suggested adding. Some of those were skills in 3.0 and they were dropped.
Ulorian 01-08-06, 03:02 PM	I like it a lot. It makes sense ('agility' and 'dexterity' are different) and seems balanced at face value.
nonsi 01-11-06, 02:57 AM	Nonsi, I'm still not sure that climb and swim shouldn't be strength. I say they should be strength, and climb should have a duration like swim (before endurance checks are required). Constitution doesn't make someone a faster swimmer, just a longer swimmer. I've met several climbers in my life. none of them was particularly strong, but all were quite thin and flexible. regarding swim - I misplaced it. it should've been placed under Agility, but endurance check is in place. Why did you change Craft to Wisdom? Craft is a measure of creativity and problem solving, isn't it? Artists and Crafters tend to be quite intelligent, though they aren't always knowlegable (knowledge is a measure of the knowledge skill, while your raw intelligence score seems closer to "common sense"). INT represents cognitive abilities, while WIS represents (among other things) analytical capabilities and knowing how to maximize practice. the ability to store and process information doesn't necessarily reflect on ones capabilities of putting already acquired information to the best possible use. it also doesn't say a thing about ones immagination (which I feel WIS represents the best). Blacksmiths are Crafters in every sense of the word, and yet most were illiterate. many sculptures were'nt scholars (some even with real cognitive problems). And I'm not too sure about the skills you suggested adding. Some of those were skills in 3.0 and they were dropped. let me try to explain: Bargain - an option that was removed for no apearent reason. I don't thing Bluff, Diplomacy or Intimmidation cover this one. Drinking - if you want to play the archetype dwarf, you'd probbably want to enhance his capabilities of holding down his liquor (you might say dwarfs gain several extra ranks automatically, or just a natural bonus - to keep concurrent with skill ranking rules). taunt - I see no reason to convert this ability into a feat, given general feats are so scarce. Innuendo - this is a technique thet requires acute observation, not the ability to deceive (although synergy might be in place) lips reading - another acute-observation action (synergy from Spot is reasonable). Food Tasting - this could actually be a feat (while the mind constantly addapts, the body usually takes only a single step).
nonsi 01-11-06, 04:11 AM	The balance issue I see here is that now all characters must have Dexterity in order to hit. It is no longer possible to have the dextrous swashbuckler (with DEX and Finesse) competing with the hulking barbarian (with raw STR)... everyone must be the swashbuckler. The poor Fighter just became even more MAD, needing 4 stats to compete instead of 3. not exactly. swashbucklers are characterized with great agility, while hulking barbarians are powerful and dexterous (ever seen Albright in the Bushido ring?). This also steps partially outside the "AC" concept in D&D - STR provides a bonus to "hit" because it represents "striking hard enough to injure through the person's armor/defenses". In D&D, any attack that exceeds the "touch AC" is a hit... but no damage results until the full armored AC is breached. If you are changing this mechanic (quite possible, given the board we are discussing this on!), then this change is a bit more palatable. in my view, armor should provice a flat DR, but it's hard to decide how much damage each armor can sustain and when it is actually damaged.
nonsi 01-11-06, 04:20 AM	You could for instance derive Willpower (bonus to will saves/turning check) from a composite of Wisdom and Charisma. I really don't understand this concept of charisma in D&D, as reflecting strength of personality. charisma represents everything that you reflect outside and one's natural ability to influence others (except maybe autosuggestion and self deceiving - which could be covered perfectly with high / low (respectively) WIS). this should have no bearing whatsoever on spells or resisting/avoiding anything.
Cymraegmorgan 01-11-06, 08:53 AM	I really don't understand this concept of charisma in D&D, as reflecting strength of personality. charisma represents everything that you reflect outside and one's natural ability to influence others (except maybe autosuggestion and self deceiving - which could be covered perfectly with high / low (respectively) WIS). this should have no bearing whatsoever on spells or resisting/avoiding anything. It is called ego, and you will find it throughout the literature, from Burroughs and Howard to Moorcock and Rowling. It is not always brainpower, but usually egopower that drives fantasy's most powerful casters to the heights they acheive. Thus, Charisma for some casters. And as for resistance, the more grounded in the self, the easier to throw off the domination of others.
nonsi 01-12-06, 04:29 AM	nice concept :)
MasterOfPsychic 01-12-06, 04:48 AM	And mister "This is not d20": No bad that we play D&D, and not d20 then :P Seriously, it would still be D&D even though it not longer is completly rules-official d20...
Xeviat-DM 01-12-06, 07:19 AM	Strength isn't always about bulk; sure, muscle has weight to it, but the difference between a body builder (high strength, low agility) and a true athlete (all physicals high) is that the athlete's muscle mass is lean and cut, not hulkingly large. Climbing, be it a wall or a rope, uses the same muscles as a pull up; weak people cannot do pull ups. Now, it is true that there is a point where strength and weight come into conflict; someone who is very strong but not athletic will have a lot of excess mass and will have a harder time lifting their own weight, but base D&D characters are assumed to be an appropriate weight for their ability scores and height (there are traits to signify someone who is exceptionally light or exceptionally heavy). So, I think climb is strength. I still think swim is more strength than agility; I can't see dropping all of strength's ability scores. I chose to make jump agility rather than strength, but like swim and climb, I could see the possibility of letting characters use either their strength or agility score depending on their nature; creatures with natural climb and swim speeds could use agility, and land creatures could use either strength or agility for jump. As for Charisma and saves; charisma is an active, agressive ability score, and should only be used for active, non-defensive abilities. Similarly, Wisdom is a passive, defensive ability score (intelligence and perception lay somewhere between). I could see having a save tied to perception (resisting illusions and other "tricks", while wisdom would still resist actual attacks and attempts to influence). And about the new suggested skills: Bargain - How does diplomacy not cover bargain? Diplomacy makes people more willing to help you, and if the character and situation warrents it, helping someone may mean giving them a discount. When a PC sells an item to a helpful merchant, I give them 55% the value of the item instead of 50%, and when a PC buys an item from a friendly merchant, it only costs the PC 90%. I give out less money than items, and I audit the PC's equipment every so often to keep this from getting out of hand. Similarly, the opposite attitudes inflict opposite penalties. Now this is a house rule, but it seems to be a very simple addition, more simple than adding a skill. Drinking - Alcohol is a poison, so you're talking about introducing a skill that helps someone resist poison? Because that isn't a learned tollerance, it's a biological tollerance, and thus not a skill. This just seemed like a joke; was it? taunt - Depends on what it does; if it's at the same power level of feint and demoralize opponent, it's a use of an existing skill. Taunt seems like a use of intimidation, or possibly bluff. Innuendo - They canned innuendo because few people took it. If one can use Bluff to make one look like they're lying, one could easily use it to hide information with someone who knows the code. lips reading - Again, dropped in 3.5 conversion because it was too specific. Food Tasting - And what exactly would this do? I'm starting to think that, maybe, you were making an observation about me complicating the system with my additions. If you were, thanks for not listening to my first request. If you weren't, then help me to understand why you think those skills should be added. And what does food tasting do?