Post/Author/DateTime	Post
Xeviat-DM 03-08-05, 03:20 AM	In my games, I have been on a long, arduous quest to make every option relatively viable for players (relatively because I wouldn't let someone design a character who fights naked with a letter opener and is as effective as an appropriately equiped character). Weapons were the first thing I decided to revise, but then I turned my sights on armor. Due to my new proficiency system, where classes gain a number of proficiency feats which they use to purchase their weapon, armor, and shield proficiencies, it has become increasingly important to make medium and heavy armors matter. What do I mean? I mean that I do not feel that medium and heavy armors grant enough considering the penalties they have. Due to max dexterity bonuses, characters with the appropriate dexterities generally have better ACs when wearing light armor than medium or heavies. On top of that, medium and heavy armors have huge armor check penalties and movement reductions. So, using the Armor as DR varient from UA, I seeked to revise the armor system to make each armor mean something. Now there is an armor for every single "reasonable" Dexterity bonus (any character with a dexterity bonus higher than +8 does not wear armor anymore). Additionally, medium armors gained an additional +1 AC to make up for the speed and skill penalties, while heavies gained an additional +1 AC and +1 DR to make up for their greater penalties. I hope you like: Armor AC DR Max Dex ACP ASF Light armor Padded +1 0/- +8 0 5% Leather +1 1/- +6 0 10% Studded leather +2 1/- +5 -1 15% Chain shirt +1 2/- +5 -2 15% Medium armor Hide +3 2/- +4 -3 20% Scale mail +3 3/- +3 -4 25% Breastplate +4 2/- +3 -4 25% Chainmail +4 3/- +2 -5 30% Heavy armor Splint mail +4 5/- +1 -6 40% Banded mail +5 4/- +1 -6 40% Half-plate +5 5/- +0 -7 45% Full plate +5 5/- +1 -6 40%
Grigori 03-08-05, 10:58 AM	Why would the maximum dexterity bonus for half plate be less than full plate? It is generally easier to move around in half plate as opposed to full plate.
Xeviat-DM 03-08-05, 11:48 AM	Why would the maximum dexterity bonus for half plate be less than full plate? It is generally easier to move around in half plate as opposed to full plate. That's how it is in the PHB. Full plate is specifically fitted for the wearer, and must be heavily modified to resize it for someone else. This snugger fit allows for greater manuverability. It also costs an extra 1000 gp.
Greyman 03-08-05, 09:00 PM	Seems reasonable. However, why are some armour check penalties positive and some negative?
Xeviat-DM 03-08-05, 11:25 PM	Seems reasonable. However, why are some armour check penalties positive and some negative? Because I'm an idiot ... :P I fixed it.
PaTRiXXX 03-09-05, 08:02 AM	Why the nerfing for the Chain shirt? I think it's a good variant if you want to promote the use of Heavy armor or if heavy armor is more difficult to obtain (money and/or feats). But personally I prefer the use of lighter armors. Kind of "Off Topic" but I had to ask. How would you mix the "Defense armor class bonus" variant with the "Armor as DR" variant?
Xeviat-DM 03-09-05, 01:41 PM	Why the nerfing for the Chain shirt? I think it's a good variant if you want to promote the use of Heavy armor or if heavy armor is more difficult to obtain (money and/or feats). But personally I prefer the use of lighter armors. I didn't nerf it, it just has a higher max dex now. It was part of the progression I came up with, and I decided that the chainshirt offers less protection than studded leather, but would block more damage (it covers less of the body, but covers that part better). Kind of "Off Topic" but I had to ask. How would you mix the "Defense armor class bonus" variant with the "Armor as DR" variant? I wouldn't in my games since there are too many variables that system brings in. ACs get very high unless you counter deflection, natural armor, and armor enhancements. The main reason I switched to armor as DR is because my splitting of ability scores made it so many characters to hits would drop. In order to keep characters balanced, and to maintain strength's importance in "hitting" targets, I implimented this. Additionally, I have critical hits ignoring this sort of DR.
Xeviat-DM 03-09-05, 01:41 PM	An armor enhancement goes along with this. +1 for 1/- DR, stacks with armor. Can be applied multiple times.
Robbo 03-12-05, 08:19 AM	I removed the bonus to AC all together, but roughly doubled DR. The argument is: armour actually makes you EASIER to hit as it restricts your mobility to some degree, but lessens the effect of each hit. Regarding your comment on the chainshirt, that doesn't make sense to me. It's DR will apply more often as you have made it easier to hit, yet your argument is that it covers less area??! I got around this sort of problem by determining where each hit occurs - not in detail but in general - i.e. has it hit the armour (apply it's DR) or has it hit an area with no protection (no DR) or lesser protection (the appropriate DR) for example, a chainshirt may be worn over padded armour, in which case, a blow to the torso would result in chain's DR, but a blow to the arms or legs would only have to penetrate the lesser DR of leather.
Xeviat-DM 03-15-05, 05:47 PM	I removed the bonus to AC all together, but roughly doubled DR. The argument is: armour actually makes you EASIER to hit as it restricts your mobility to some degree, but lessens the effect of each hit. Interesting idea. Problem is armor isn't simply just a shell of metal. Armor, especially plate and banded type armors, have a geometry specifically designed to cause weapons to glance away. A direct shot from an arrow would drive straight through most armors, but the armor was angled and curved to prevent direct shots as much as possible. So, some amount of total protection is there. Regarding your comment on the chainshirt, that doesn't make sense to me. It's DR will apply more often as you have made it easier to hit, yet your argument is that it covers less area??! It covers less area, so I don't think it should offer as much AC. Though your point is true, it covers less area so it's DR shouldn't apply as much. Perhaps I have it in reverse then? Since a hit to chainshirt is more likely to simply be deflected than a hit to studded leather, perhaps the chainshirt should offer more AC and less DR? Studded is mostly padding after all (though you are right, certain armors are worn over others). In my perfect game of D&D, I'd have a piecemeal armor system. The pieces would be as follows: base, chest, arms (individual), legs, and head. Each piece would have an armor bonus, a DR, and an associated armor check penalty. Depending on where the armor was would depend on where the armor check penalty applied (armor on arms would apply to attack rolls for instance). I would also incorperate some sort of damage system, where one could hack through armor to make it less effective and to simply damage the person inside. Though this is asking for much more than I really think is necessary. I am seeking to have sunder mechanics for armor, though.
Crashy75 03-17-05, 10:00 PM	Well looks good to me. I've given this topic alot of thought as well but i have to say I think a class defense bonus can work with Armor as DR though not as in UA. Of course, you do have to start playing with spells and magic armors... And then there's the playtesting. And then the revisions upon revisions... ooohh and changing your mind a google times per day about what you want to include and change and then there's the voices in your head and the visual hallucinations... ooohhh oohhh and the mispellings!!!!!! :P
PaTRiXXX 03-18-05, 10:19 AM	Crashy75 how would you mix Defense class bonus and Armor as DR?
Robbo 03-24-05, 09:19 PM	Xeviant - of course i agree that sometimes armour will prevent all damage. This happens with my suggestion, when for example the attacker hits but rolls damage below the DR of the armour. The interpretation of this can easily be that the armour deflected the blow. Remember that with my doubled DR system this happens quite a lot. In the extreme case of full plate being hit by say a long sword, it actually makes the weapon completely ineffective. I think this is quite realistic, as to defeat a fully armoured knight in the mid-1400's with "ordinary" weapons you had to render him pretty much helpless first - either by grappling or otherwise pulling him to the ground, damaging his armour with specialist weapons, or exhaust him (full plate was exhausting to fight in for long periods). I like encouraging intelligent use of tactics, such as grappling, using a halberd, or pick, or crossbow against plate. All characters should carry a long thin knife for finishing off an opponent in plate, through the visor. The alternative is to literally unbuckle some of his armour while a colleague sits on him! Of course in D&D there are always alternatives, such as having high strength, using magic, and nominating attacks against less protected areas (underarms etc)
Crashy75 03-24-05, 09:48 PM	Crashy75 how would you mix Defense class bonus and Armor as DR? Hey i'd love to go into it but i don't want to hijack the thread. If X says it's ok then i'll reply again (there is alot to post on the subject) otherwise i'll start a new thread.
Xeviat-DM 03-25-05, 12:57 AM	Hey i'd love to go into it but i don't want to hijack the thread. If X says it's ok then i'll reply again (there is alot to post on the subject) otherwise i'll start a new thread. Go ahead, it's related to the topic. As for doubleing the DR ... I think that's incredibly dangerous. It makes heavy armor too important I think, and it makes dex based warriors almost impossible. Also, you seem to imply that many piercing weapons ignore DR? Additionally, you're making rules for sundering armor?
Robbo 03-25-05, 10:12 AM	I agree that doubling armour DR changes the nature of combat, but towards realism I think. Certainly not for everyone, as it requires extra rules on exceptions (weapons that are particularly effective vs armour types, damage to armour, etc.) The main reasons why fighters will not always wear full plate are (1) how exhausting it is to travel and fight in, in real battles plate armoured men would sometimes have to stop for a breather while advancing on their enemy, ther are accounts of knights dying in battle from simply being unable to breathe under a crush of just a few men falling on them, and if you ever talk with someone who does jousting re-enactment they will tell you how hot they get, (2) being inside the medieval equivalent of a tank doesn't do much for your spot and listen checks, it's quite easy to surprise or evade someone in full plate. As soon as the visor is lifted, the helm removed, the gauntlets slipped off, then he becomes vulnerable again. Regarding weapon effectiveness, a small set of weapons were designed specifically to penetrate plate armour. You can see which ones worked quite well by the way that others dropped out of use towards the end of the middle ages. The problem was that to pierce 2mm plus of steel required a considerable force concentrated in a small area, i.e. a spike on a pole arm, so that if it did penetrate the armour it would not deal a deadly amount of damage to the man inside. Still, they could cause bleeding, and a certain amount of incapacity, and if the armour were buckled or wrenched loose then other weapons would be effective in finishing him off. But piercing weapons in general don't meet the criteria. Bear in mind that men-at-arms in plate used to forego a shield. The quality of their armour was such that they could almost ignore the possibility of being injured by someone who did not have an armour-piercing weapon. The dexterity based fighter who prefers to fence with a flexible blade may well be somewhat "sub-optimal" against someone in full plate if they just fight toe-to-toe. But if he spring-attacks and rather than striking flips open the visor, unbuckles a breastplate, etc, then he has a more vulnerable target to aim for. I have found that there are creative solutions to any such game balance problems, but they are sometimes different solutions than those in normal D&D combat. Just to put my meanderings into some context, I have been playing and DMing off and on for more years than i care to mention, and so like to mix up some of the rules to add a little variety. You can certainly have a perfectly acceptable game by following the rules as written, but there are historical and logical inacuracies that bug me and my players.
Crashy75 03-25-05, 05:40 PM	Go ahead, it's related to the topic. Alright then... Armor as DR with Class defense. Ok, first of all, I'd go with the chart XDM has with some not-so-slight changes. Keep in mind these suggestions are for game balance and not realism. In my minds eye, i see armor as being able to both absorb damage (the DR) and deflect blows (The AC bonus). Tho if you have a class defense on top of armor bonuses, everybody is going to be very hard to hit. An option that i've been toying with is to give armor a slightly higher DR that what X has (around +1 point each piece) with a AC Penalty roughly equal to the Armor bonus usually given. The justification is that the armor restricts movement and makes one more likely to be hit.(It's probably to refer to AC as Defense in these cases) If you are going low magic then you may be able to justify giving the DR (+1) with no bonus or pen to defense/AC.... That's a big maybe though. Man i've got so much more to say but i just don't have the time right now. I'll get back to you guyz when i get home from work (in about 5 hrs)
PaTRiXXX 03-27-05, 02:25 PM	Crashy. Thank you for the idea, I'll probably steal it ;) for my future campaign.
Crashy75 03-28-05, 02:23 PM	Crashy. Thank you for the idea, I'll probably steal it ;) for my future campaign. Hey no prob... I've got tonz more.... It's just time I don't have!!!