Post/Author/DateTime	Post
Seerow 01-01-06, 06:50 PM	This is an armor system that I saved posted on the GitP forums by somebody else at least a month or two ago. Sadly, I have since forgotten the username of the person who originally posted this. If anybody recognizes the system, or knows the person, let me know and I'll gladly give them credit. That said, while the concept is mostly taken from them, Im cleaning it up to be easier to understand, and to generally make more sense, as some of the things proposed didn't seem to make much sense to me (For example, in the original active defense formula posted, the only thing an active defender got that a passive defender didn't was a full shield bonus, and to get that they would have to give up an attack of opportunity and roll a d20 instead of having a base 10. While it gives potential to be higher, I don't see why an active defense should -ever- be lower than a passive defense, let alone that being the case 40% of the time.) That said, let me get into it. 1. All Armor and Natural Armor gets converted to Damage Reduction and Damage Absorption instead of giving a bonus to armor class. Half of the armor bonus that would normally be given(rounded down) becomes your damage reduction, while half of the armor bonus that would normally be given(rounded up) becomes your Damage Absorption. What is Damage Absorption? It is a new stat that converts a certain ammount of damage taken per hit into nonlethal damage. In the case of a creature with both natural armor and armor bonuses to AC,these values do stack, but when stacking it loses some of its effectiveness. This is demonstrated by taking the lower value and halving it (rounding down)before adding it on to the higher value. In the case of enchanted armor, the enchantment value is added to both the DR and the DA. This is added after the halving in the case of creatures with natural armor. This DR does stack with that granted from Adamantine. It may also be reasonable to say certain armors DR or DA (or both) may be bypassed by certain weapon types. For example, allowing Full Plate's DR to be bypassed by Bludgeoning Damage. I am unsure on this particular part, and would like some input on what would be reasonable. For some examples so you can get a feel as to how this works... Ex 1 Chainmail: Normally: +5 AC Under this system: Grants DR2/- DA3/- Ex 2 Banded Mail: Normaly:+6 AC Under this system: Grants DR3/- DA3/- Ex 3 Lizard Folk with Banded Mail Normal: +5 Natural Armor +6 Armor, AC 21 Under this system: Base DR3/- DA3/- from Banded Mail, as the natural armor is lower. The Natural Armor grants DR2/- and DA3/-. This is then halved, rounded down, and added to the Banded Mail stats. Thus the natural armor would add another point of DR and DA, making your total DR and DA DR4/- DA4/-. Ex 4 Lizard Folk with Banded Mail+1 Normal: +5 Natural Armor +7 Armor, AC 22 Under this system: As before, pre-enhancement we have DR4/- and DA4/-. You now add the Enhancement bonus of +1 to each stat, so you have DR5/- and DA5/- This makes armor enchantments seem much more powerful. This can be compensated for by charging more for the enchantments (Doubling the prices to make it the same as enchanting a weapon), or taking the above suggestion and making the DR or DA of armor passable by certain weapon types. Possibly allowing for Natural Armor to be bypassed by certain energy types as well (Acid and Fire being most common, a la regeneration) This system overall represents what armor should be. Rather than stopping a character from being hit, it stops them from being hurt. A character in heavy armor will tend to be hit a lot, but they will shrug off much of the damage as inconsequential. Before howling about a goblin being unable to hurt a character in full plate... consider how often that goblin could actually -hit- a character in full plate before. 2. Shields do not grant DR. They continue to grant AC bonuses as before, but their bonuses have been somewhat improved to go with the active/passive system to be described below. In the case of shields, if you chose to raise the cost of enchanted armor, shield enchantment prices should remain about the same. Buckler: +2 Shield Bonus, one hand, leaves the hand free to grasp and hold objects, but lose Shield Bonus when hand is used in an attack. Light Shield: +3 Shield Bonus, one hand, requires hand to grasp, may carry tiny to fine objects in hand but nothing else. If proficient with the shield, a character may "forearm" the shield, which frees the hand but lowers the effectiveness of the shield, halving its Shield Bonus to +1 (1/2 of +3 rounded down) Heavy Shield: +4 Shield Bonus, grasped in one hand, requires whole hand to grasp and use effectively. If proficient with the shield, a character may "forearm" the shield, which frees the hand but lowers the effectiveness of the shield, halving its Shield Bonus to +2 (1/2 of +4) Tower Shield: +5 Shield Bonus, provides total cover if character chooses to give up their attacks for that round, grasped in one hand, requires whole arm to use, may not be "forearmed". 3. Now we come to the fun part, the active and passive defense I alluded to earlier. In the original system this is being based off of, using an active defense required a use of an Attack of Opportunity for the round. I think, instead, the character should have a separate pool for attacks they can dodge in a round, a defense pool so to speak. Combat Reflexes would improve this Defense Pool in the same way it increases your attacks of opportunity for the round. A character who is passively defending will have an armor class that looks like: 10+Size+1/2 Shield(Rounded Down)+Deflection+Dodge+Competence+Combat Expertise Now, once per turn, plus an additional number of times per turn equal to their Dexterity Modifier if they take combat reflexes, a character can actively defend. Active Defense allows them to add their full shield bonus, and a special class bonus to their AC. They then Roll a d20 instead of adding the base 10. How does one determine the class bonus? The class bonus follows a progression similar to BAB, a High, Medium, and Low, distributed to the classes. Classes with High Progression: Monk, Rogue, Bard, Ranger Classes with Medium Progression: Cleric, Fighter, Paladin Classes with Low Progression: Druid, Wizard, Sorcerer, Barbarian The reasoning being that heavy armor users get a medium progression, while those who often go into combat in Light/No armor get the highest progression. Those who don't focus on combat, or who don't care about their own good health got the lowest progression. So, any comments on this? I haven't had a chance to test these rules myself,, but they seem like they should work fine. Im hoping that by reformatting this it's easier for other people to understand than it was for me when I first read them. Pretty much the biggest change I made from the original was saying to allow normal DR/DA to be bypassed by weapon types, and messing around with which classes got which progression. Also, class bonus was originally added to passive defense, which I felt broke the system, as it made high level characters impossible to hit AND damage, all the time, and made using active defense worthless except for the full shield bonus.
limetom 01-01-06, 07:34 PM	This is almost exactly the same armor system that is used in Iron Heroes. Aside from the addition of Damage Absorbtion, which would unbalance it, especially at lower levels, it is really no different.
Lina_Inverse 01-01-06, 09:41 PM	This greatly weakens armor to the point of uselessness. Additionally fighters are now even more worthless, most fighters cant do more than 40 damage per normal attack, without power attack anyways. Unbalenced. It also violates FSBNN Did you praytell not read the math part about how the UA armor as DR already weakens armor and you want to weaken it more than that?
Seerow 01-01-06, 11:05 PM	Limetom: I haven't seen Iron Heroes, but how does Damage Absorption break the system? It seems reasonable to me that some of the damage would get through kinetic energy, but not enough so to kill a person. Just cancel the ability for cure spells to completely heal nonlethal damage and it should be fine. Lina: Getting DR is useless now? I can see maybe at higher levels where damage goes sky high... but from what I've seen things that grant an armor bonus are much -cheaper- than things that grant DR... which seems to imply that the DR is more powerful. Unless I'm missing something? And no, I haven't seen the math you refer to. Also, what's the FSBNN?
Lina_Inverse 01-01-06, 11:20 PM	Lina: Getting DR is useless now? I can see maybe at higher levels where damage goes sky high... but from what I've seen things that grant an armor bonus are much -cheaper- than things that grant DR... which seems to imply that the DR is more powerful. Unless I'm missing something? And no, I haven't seen the math you refer to. Also, what's the FSBNN? +2 damage is worth +1 to-hit. Hence it follows DR is -weaker- than AC. To use a rather blunt example theres an epic feat which gives a +2stacking AC bonus, theres an epic feat that gives a +3stacking DR bonus. I think that shows quite plainly which is more valueable. Its in UA, it basically comes down to +5AC and DR4/- is weaker at even third level(ogres to be exact) than +9 AC. Armor as DR systems just dont work in d20, they either are unstoppable at lvl1 and 2, or are completely worthless at level 5+, AC is a sounder mechanical and balence choice. Feats Should Be Nice Not Nessasary. It basically means no feat should ever be nessasary, only a nice thing to have.
Seerow 01-01-06, 11:45 PM	Even once per round, the extra defense could make the difference here. Maybe if I increased the number of times you can use the defense in a round with level (1/2 levels for high, 1/3 levels for medium 1/4 levels for low). But even so, bringing epic levels up is different. In epic levels everybody has everything, and damage is much higher while chances to hit don't increase as quickly. At that point, yes, the AC will be more important than the DR. Looking at everything level 20 and below, only Barbarians and a few prestige classes get DR.The only item I can think of that grants DR is armor made out of Adamantine, while several classes and plenty of items grant AC bonuses. Which is more valuable, DR or AC? Of course, if we're going to talk about play in epic levels, Improved Combat Reflexes lets you make infinite attacks of opportunity, which under this system lets you have an extra 10-20 AC (plus your epic level bonus) against -every- attack, I think that would make up for the lack of AC from armor at those levels. Of course, I was mostly worried about things growing overpowered at low levels when I was rewriting this. Perhaps allow for scaling armor use(as with the scaling defense use I suggested above for total defense), that allows a higher level character to use his armor more effectively? This would keep it balanced at low levels, and say every 4-5 levels he doubles the DR and DA granted by the armor (to show his experience in using it, he can move just right to let the armor take more of the blow). The result would be the afforementioned Banded mail increasing to 6/6 at level 4, 9/9 at 8, 12/12 at 12, 15/15 at 16, and 18/18 at 20. Hrm... that seems a bit much for regular banded mail though... let's see how Adamantine Full Plate +5 would look. (Should enhancements scale too...? Probably not, for this Ill assume it doesn't) Starts as 11/11, becomes 15/15 at 4, 19/19 at 8, 22/22 at 12, 25/25 at 16, 29/29 at 20. So the best armor we can get ignores about the first 30 points of damage and converts the next 30 to subdual damage by level 20, in a heavy armor class. Is this more in line with what you wanted? I dunno, somebody should run the math on that, as opposed to the normal system, where the fighter would have an additional 13 AC and a DR of only 2 from this. I get the feeling 30 is a bit high, but if we figure out where the point DR becomes better than armor is, we can make it scale up to that point, and it should work.
Xeviat-DM 01-02-06, 08:53 AM	Also, the one problem of armor as DR is the fact that there is always a chance someone could bypass the armor entirely. Picks and maces broke through armor, a blade could cut through, and a piercing weapon could always slip into a joint. Heck, a chainshirt doesn't even protect the arms or legs; what happens to those hits? I had wanted to do an armor as DR like in UA, but it doesn't really make much sense when all things are said and done. What would make the most sense, but be annoying to constantly check, would be this: A character wearing armor has two ACs: Standard and Touch. If an attack fails to hit the standard AC, but hits the touch AC, damage suffered is non-lethal (or an amount of damage is reduced through DR, which ever system seems more appropriate). If an attack fails to hit either ACs, the attack is entirely ignored.
Luega 01-02-06, 10:45 AM	One word; armor piercing (well, OK, that's two words, but still). I'm working on some sort of armor piercing system for my low-power rules set (if any of you remember; the MDT=CON/armor as DR+MDT bonus/class bonus to AC thingy). Here's how it works (...so far, it's still in the works); every weapon have an AP value. This value comes in four levels; none, light, medium, and heavy. It just so happen that these four grades match the armor categories, and this is for a reason (gasp). If the weapon's AP value is equal to or higher to the armor's "wheight category" (with none being the lowest, and heavy the highest) the DR from that armor is halved against said attack.
Seerow 01-02-06, 03:26 PM	Xeviat: How would one determine the difference between the ACs? Hrm... maybe use the ACs granted already, and they add as normal(as those ACs seem to represent the covering anyway. The heavier armors adding more) So going back to our Lizard with Banded Mail... he now has two effective ACs. 10 and 21. If an enemy misses the 10, he misses, if an enemy hits below those two ACs, he hits the DR, and if he hits above the 21, he hits without the DR. Is that what you're saying? of course, the above ignores any dex bonuses, shield bonuses, etc. The AC itself will probably be higher on both counts. Im not sure, as this weakens the DR even further. Of course, if I scaled the DR based on ECL as I described in my last post, that could work, but again, Im not sure how unbalancing that kind of scaling DR might be. Luega: I kind of covered that in the first post, when suggesting certain weapon types be strong against certain armor types. iirc Second Edition has a list of what weapon types were good against what armor types, so if I looked up that list, and made it what weapons could bypass what DR, but the DA still applies (essentially providing that half DR ignored that you mentioned) Also, Im still looking for anyone who might be better at running numbers than me to tell me how broken scaling DR from armor might be. I guess now you'd have to take into account that the DR only takes effect when it hits between the Armor Classes, which seems like it will make a big difference.
Lina_Inverse 01-02-06, 04:35 PM	[QUOTE=Seerow] But even so, bringing epic levels up is different. In epic levels everybody has everything, and damage is much higher while chances to hit don't increase as quickly. At that point, yes, the AC will be more important than the DR. Looking at everything level 20 and below, only Barbarians and a few prestige classes get DR.The only item I can think of that grants DR is armor made out of Adamantine, while several classes and plenty of items grant AC bonuses. Which is more valuable, DR or AC? Of course, if we're going to talk about play in epic levels, Improved Combat Reflexes lets you make infinite attacks of opportunity, which under this system lets you have an extra 10-20 AC (plus your epic level bonus) against -every- attack, I think that would make up for the lack of AC from armor at those levels.[/quote[ I merely used epic as a refrence for the value of something. Wether not its perfect is upto you however it does show the designers feel DR is less than AC. However vastly more importent is the following problem. Ogre AC16 Armor Class: 16 (-1 size, -1 Dex, +5 natural, +3 hide armor), touch 8, How many lvl3 charecters can punch though 8DR effectively? Attack: Greatclub +8 melee (2d8+7) 8DR isnt quite so nasty against said ogre,but 9 AC is sure nice. The problem also comes down to the player/monster balence.There is no universal theory for DR to AC conversion because theres 2 very seperate numbers being compared.
Seerow 01-02-06, 07:04 PM	Well, there may not be some universal theory, but if I find the spare time/patience Ill run the numbers Ive been talking about. They key thing would be to find what an average hit bonus and damage from both a character with armor and a fighter would have at each level, and an average AC under both systems, and try to figure out what DR would be needed to make the average damage equal.
Lina_Inverse 01-02-06, 09:01 PM	Well, there may not be some universal theory, but if I find the spare time/patience Ill run the numbers Ive been talking about. They key thing would be to find what an average hit bonus and damage from both a character with armor and a fighter would have at each level, and an average AC under both systems, and try to figure out what DR would be needed to make the average damage equal. It would be easier to build a system from scratch than this most likely :P
Seerow 01-02-06, 10:19 PM	No, cause making a system from scratch would imply finding a new system for everything =D