Post/Author/DateTime	Post
caeruleus 06-08-05, 11:20 AM	I like the idea of a class defense system, but I don't like how it's presented in UA. Basically, if you are merely able wear better armor, then you can defend yourself better even if you're not wearing armor. Knowing how to wear armor should not help you dodge and parry blows better when you don't wear it. What makes more sense is that those who know how to fight not only know how to hit things, but how to not be hit. Sure, some may be better at one or the other, but that can be taken into account by Strength and Dexterity bonuses and penalties. What I would suggest is that is that each character's base defense bonus is 2 + half of his/her base attack bonus (rounded down). I go with half of the BAB because to use the whole thing looks like it could get overpowered. The 2 to start with is to bring it slightly more in line with the numbers that are presented in UA. They're not exactly the same, but I'm not worried about that. Another advantage is that you don't need special considerations for multiclass characters, since the calculation is based on BAB. It also makes more sense that a ranger with two weapons can avoid being hit better than a cleric can. Thoughts?
ShinZero 06-08-05, 12:14 PM	I always thought that you should get an AC bonus for having a weapon in your hand. When you see people fighting in movies (and real life even) they block with the sword alot, and it seems non-represented in game material. Im not saying going out of the way to list defense bonuses for every weapon however. What I think makes sense is this, if you have a weapon in hand that is larger than your oppoents weapon, you get +1 AC per size level of difference. This means someone with a pole arm would be better at zoning their ooponents and a long sword vs a knife would be in favour of the Longsword. I would alos include a few new Feats. Improved Zoning Techniques PR: Int 13, Expertise, BAB +3 Benifit: You are better skilled at keeping enemies at bay using larger weapons. If you gain a Zoning AC bonus for using a larger weapon, this bonus is increased by +1 and you gain +1 to attack rolls. Extended Grip PR: Str 13, Dex 13, BAB +3 Benifit: You can grip your weapon nearer to its end and fight effectively. This is often used by Monks with staves and pole arms, but any medium or larger weapon can be used this way. While using this Feat, your weapon is concidered one size larger for Zoning purposes. In Fighting PR: Weapon Finnesse or Martial Arts, BAB +3 Benifet: This will apply to any Finnessed weapon or Unarmed Attacks (if Martial Arts taken). If you score a hit in Mellee against an opponent who has a Zoning advantage on you, then you negate their Zoning bonus and gain it for yourself instead by fighting tight within their reach. This is maintained as long as you both remain in each others threatened area. Moving away from each other will reset this to normal. Long Hand Strikes PR: Martial Arts, Dex 13, BAB +5 Benifet: You are trained in unarmed attacks and motions which have more reach than normal. You are treated as carrying a Medium weapon in combot for purposes of Zoning. If you take this Feat a second time then you will be treated as having a Large weapon when fighting unarmed. I know this isn't exactly what you are looking for, but it does add more dimension to AC based on fighting preference and levels (since spending Feats will improve your defense)
Dungeon Master 06-08-05, 07:43 PM	Or you could just say that the bonus only applies if your weapon is the same size or larger than the attacker's weapon.
caeruleus 06-09-05, 12:13 AM	I know this isn't exactly what you are looking for Correct, it's not what I'm looking for.
Ranger REG 06-09-05, 05:24 AM	Thoughts? Salvage the Class Defense Bonus data from d20 Modern (or look them up in the Modern System Reference Documents, available for download in Wizards' web site).
Veton 06-09-05, 11:08 AM	I always thought that you should get an AC bonus for having a weapon in your hand. When you see people fighting in movies (and real life even) they block with the sword alot, and it seems non-represented in game material. I would say that blocking with your weapon is part of your Dexterity score to AC, representing someone quickly blocking with their weapon. It would be up to the DM to put that sort of small detail into combat description.
Temrek 06-09-05, 11:33 AM	I would say that blocking with your weapon is part of your Dexterity score to AC, representing someone quickly blocking with their weapon. It would be up to the DM to put that sort of small detail into combat description. ´ I agree, although you dont improve however (unless you raise your dex) in defense as much as one realistically should, having a defense bonus sush as this would be a good idea if you have less items that grants AC bonuses as D&D is currently balanced with the fact that usually most of the ac comes from items.
caeruleus 06-09-05, 12:55 PM	Salvage the Class Defense Bonus data from d20 Modern (or look them up in the Modern System Reference Documents, available for download in Wizards' web site). Yes, but I was suggesting a way of figuring out the particular numbers to use for the D&D classes (which don't quite map onto d20 Modern classes). If you want to write the numbers on a table, that's cool. One thing I would avoid is including the initial +2 on such a table, so you don't get characters really good at avoiding being hit just because they multiclass. (The same could be--and has been--said about saving throw bonuses.)
ShinZero 06-09-05, 03:55 PM	I would say that blocking with your weapon is part of your Dexterity score to AC, representing someone quickly blocking with their weapon. It would be up to the DM to put that sort of small detail into combat description. So an unarmed character is just as good at blocking a sword as an armed character? That makes no sense. The little bit of optional rules I tossed out allows for that without any great change or balancing problems, and gives insentive for players to choose polearms (and thanks to a few feats, smaller weapons)
caeruleus 06-09-05, 10:47 PM	Out of curiosity, does anyone want to respond to my original post?
shiffd 06-10-05, 03:50 AM	Hey I posted some houserules of mine on another site. I kinda agree but actually I think that ones ability to defend themself should increase at the same rate that they get better at attacking successfully. Also all the magic item stuff is really cheezy. Its just a way of compensating for a system which is unrelistic in the way it deals with the attack. Attack in combat is many things, lets see what DND has covered Luck Check skill of attacker Check skill of defender partial check terrain, combat styles, weponry, armor etc. partial check, actually these things would be so complicated to build a RP system around its best that they be considered equal. I disagree with all the ideas for gooberfeats and whatnot for getting AC bonuses, and I disagree with teh idea of using shields VS weapons etc. to get extra AC bonuses. Because its a complication of the gaming system which does nothing to enhance or address realism, in-fact it only confusese realism and makes things less realistic. Consider the roman soldier vs a fencer. DOes the roman's shield help him defend? Yes. Does the fencers sword? YES. IF you give the fencer a shield will it help them? NO. IF you give the roman soldeir a rapier will it help him/will he use it in fencing stance to defend the way a fencer would? NO. Trying to figure gaming rules for that is way to complicated. The best thing to do is to assume that every character gets better at both defense and attack over time REGARDLESS of their individual style. Equipment and fighting style should be for RP and story enhancement purposes, trying to promote one style as more effective than the other for X,Y reasons etc. or trying to create feats for muntchkining players based on random martial arts knowledge just promotes ignorance and anti-realism. I say that as PC's level they should gain an AC bonus which is applicable in combat only. It should not be applicableagainst sneak attacks etc. Has anyone considered that allthough HP automatically goes up with level Damage does not? That is why AC got messed up. The attack got better Defense didn't Damage didnt, absorbtion of damage did. SO you had 4 factors and changes on the back end and front end with stagnation in the middle. It led to a lot of issues of imbalanced power amongst certain PC's, NPC's, Monsters, equipment and feats etc. People don't abosorb damage, so thats not realistic and it caused other problems with realism inthe system. Bascially its alled funked up which is why a lot of people say 'not with a ten foot pole' to playing DND. I personally love DND but think something needs to be done. Giving AC bonuses for level is a start. But that overpowers the defense end and will drag combat out indefinitely. To compensate either damage ability needs to be increased OR absorbtion ability decreased. I personally don't like the idea of people absorbing damage SO I vote for people not gaining HP at level and instead gaining AC bonuses. Wizards spells to increase damage ability with level so in order to keep magic in check if HP doesn't increase than spell damage shouldn't increase with level. IE first level wiz magic missle should do same dam as 10th, but 10ths should have more missles which are more accurate, but not more damaging. Just my thoughts and stuff
ShinZero 06-10-05, 01:09 PM	Hp increase at level up has little to do with actual damage absorbtion. It is luck and avoidance. I know that makes no sense when luck and avoidance is tied into AC :rolleyes: To fix that, bring in the damage system from Mutants and Masterminds. It is faster and more realistic. Still allows for the increase in "luck and evasion" for leveling up, however the realistic possibilty of a random strike killing you is always there. I agree that Ac/Def should increase as you level up, and so should damage. As is, Damage and AC do increase when you level but primarily only from equipment. There are Feats that increase your AC and ability to deal damage, but not at the same rate as your BAB increases. It is hard to introduce bonuses for these to excisting classes without affecting balance, this is a problem. You could simply state Damage and AC bonuses equal (or are based on) BaB, however there are some classes which may deserve better bonuses in this area (ie, it could be argued a Thief should have better AC than a Fighter...though D6 hps really argues against this at the same time) If you use the Mutants and Masterminds rule, you could introduce a point based combat bonus system where the player receives points each level and may purchase from Def, Damage Save, BaB, and Damage Bonus. The points gained each level would be determined by a Classes BaB and Hit Die...and Id reccomend no better than +2 to anything from any level up. This will allow certain classes to still be balanced equally in their combat ability as they currently are and at same time allow preference in fighting style. Accurate hits vs Hitting Hard vs Maneuverability vs Durability. Just random ides.
DragonBringerX 06-10-05, 03:58 PM	Hp increase at level up has little to do with actual damage absorbtion. It is luck and avoidance. I know that makes no sense when luck and avoidance is tied into AC I totaly agree, the reason a weapon has random damage is to represent how hard or well it hits you, (does cut your arm a little or does it cut into your chest). As you get better in level, your better able to "roll with" the damage. For example, in the movie star wars ep. 2, in the gladiator fight, theres a scene where obi wan gets trampled by a beast of some sort. Now he's probably a high level chacter. The trample still prob deals around 4d6 + what ever the creatures STR bonus is. A commoner or newbi (1st level char) would certianly die because of this (1d4 hp), where as a high level character (lets say 12th) is able to survive cause he knows how to "roll with it" (12d8 hp). Its no different once you apply this same concept to other forms of combat. Plus theres always the chance that someone will land a leathel blow on you still (thats what criticals, vorpal, and massive damage is for). The only form of damage absorbstion comes from damage reduction, and thats just do to hard skin/ hide or whatever. :teach: at least thats the concept my friends and i came up with and it makes the most sense that a fighter would be better at rolling with it then a wizard.
jaerad 06-10-05, 06:03 PM	lol, caeruleus, no one has responded to you at all. I haven't the foggiest how to balance class AC bonuses. I actually read this thread for advice meself. Would be nice if no-armor fighters could have comparable AC without resorting to magic bracers. As far as your concern about knowing how to wear armor makes you better w/o armor... it's the same as HP. If you think about it too much, it seems silly. But when you look at it like DragonBringerX, it makes more sense. HPs are more akin to how well you shrug off damage. You're looking at armor the wrong way. It's not "Knowing how to wear armor should not help you dodge and parry blows better when you don't wear it." It's that as a Fighter, you're trained with dodging/parrying to the best of your ability. Some fighters compensate their dex with armor. Some fighters learn how to fight completely w/o armor. AC is an smattering of everything at once. Dodging, parrying, hits bouncing off, etc. Plus, most classes w/ a high BAB have a large selection of armors. That, or their class is compensating high abilities with poor armor selection - ie, they're focused on dishing it out not sucking it up.
caeruleus 06-11-05, 12:18 AM	lol, caeruleus, no one has responded to you at all. Well, I'm glad someone other than me actually noticed. I guess it's difficult for some people to start their own thread, even if it only involves a click. I'm not going to bother checking this thread anymore. What a waste of time.
shiffd 06-11-05, 05:45 AM	Well, I'm glad someone other than me actually noticed. I guess it's difficult for some people to start their own thread, even if it only involves a click. I'm not going to bother checking this thread anymore. What a waste of time. Maybe i wasn't clear. Anyway I agreed with you. That's all. I couldn't give any criticism of what you presented but I expanded with some other ideas, more just on combat in general. I agree your knowledge of wearing armor is only really useful if you are actually wearing the armor. I agree that your ability to avoid getting hit improves with experience, so I liked your idea of AC determined by level. Was there more you were looking for? You said 'thouhts' so I gave thoughts. I hope that helps. Anyway I don't know the monster and mutants thing. Where is that from? sounds interesting. Also on 'rolling with it'. THats such crap. You get better at jumping outa the way- REFLEX SAVE. ANd you get better at ABSORBING DAMAGE- HP. People try and say that's not what it is, well they are holding on to a thin line between reality and self-delusion, supported by well illustrated series of digests for the terminaly over-compensating. Noway that you can 'LUckily rollwith' a successful backstab. No way you rolled with and got lucky on something that hit you because you were 'flatfooted'. What happends if someone stabs you while you are asleep? Oh that's right you 'luckily roll-with it'. What does roll-with it mean anyway? About as realistic a phrase as 'Hit point'. Get real. Some nobody stabs your 1000th level fighter while he's asleep with a rusty dagger and I think the fighter should be mortally wounded, unless he's some kinda god. Roll with what? With a cople arrows in your chest, wouldnt that drive them deeper? Most of what you are talking about has little to do with experience and a lot to do with stamina, training, natural body condition, yes lluck and YOUTH> watch fighters in MMA stuff etc. As they get older and more experienced they get better at hitting, dodging, damaging and WORSE at lasting, taking hits etc. WHY? cuz they get older. A little training (of neck muscles etc.) helps you take punches and heart/guts/a basic experience with it allows you to fight through being injured and knocked out, but experience isn't any kinda automatic improvement in your ability to take damage. Luck, hmm, but you were hit right? But Luckily it missed, but the damage dilevered is still figured the same and like I said it deosn't address prone damage, backstabs, magic, acid, fire. ANd being stabbed is different than boxing or being trampled anyway. Yo udon't 'roll' with puncture wounds and tears in your body cavity. Try again, and again and just believe whatever it is that you read in those books that explain to you why we use hitpoints. The truth is we use hitpoints..... to reward ourselves for playing for alongtime and earning all that 'experience'. IF all it did is give us skills we's have to use inteligently what would be the point? We want guaranteed improvement in status and thats what HP does for you. It gives you a buy into X round of combat, immunity to 'lower' level things etc. It gives people a sense of finite progression. WIthout it we're all still common folk, just like in real life. Most people wouldn't rollplay if it didn't give them that which they are completely incapable fo gaining most other ways-status. There is no one thing that automatically progresses you in life, you get better at stuff and better skills etc. BUT you still have to deal with every situation regardless of how insignifigant. YOu are always as vulnerable, you just got more stuff to help you deal, but you still gotta deal. The greatest most powerful athlete in the world wouldn't live through a backstab, why should a character?
Nomad4life 06-14-05, 08:15 AM	For folks interested in fixing the "unrealism" of the HP system, and also adding a well-balanced class-defense bonus, look to the Blue Rose RPG for ideas; it is a fantasy variation of the system used in Mutants & Masterminds.
AaronXVI 06-15-05, 02:58 AM	I like the original idea of 1/2 bab for class defense bonus. I like class defense bonus and armor as purely DR.
shiffd 06-15-05, 05:39 AM	For folks interested in fixing the "unrealism" of the HP system, and also adding a well-balanced class-defense bonus, look to the Blue Rose RPG for ideas; it is a fantasy variation of the system used in Mutants & Masterminds. I looked it up and stuff. still lacks a lot of description. With the toughness roll and damage system it doesn't require anything beyond a statistical analysis of the situation and for generic recovery. HOwever it certainly ALLOWs for description, sure you don't have to describe it but you can, and it seems to point towards more description in general. Except with the toughness roll. That said I liked the damage system overall, very simple and straight forward. So instead of the attacker giving a damage roll the defender who got git rolls toughness to see how much they were damaged by the hit. Its a little Chinsy. Anyway I would say keep damage as a reflection of the attacks success, weapon and force of blow. As far as the defender, their CHance to defend was the defense roll or AC. After that DR from armor, skin, spell(magical armor). I think the Defense/attack bonuses they have layed out are pretty good. To start you are better at defending than attacking, over time it works a little in reverse. I think that is for mechanical purposes and it makes sense. But that said it leaves a toughness roll to be necessary to keep characters alive.... For me I think I'll look at their defense advancement tables as some advice, I think its simpler to just make it equal to attack, or maybe offset by a set number, just easier. Unless I decide to use their tables exactly, but I'm no fan of tables. I like the BAB of half level thing, instead of a table you just know a simple relation and stuff. Thats easy and makes for quick play. I like their damage progression with 15 being death. I think I'll use it as some sorta base. Instead of a toughness role, things that would effect toughness (class, race, Con, feats) will just offset the scale in one or the other direction. Anyway thanks for telling me about that system, it was really interesting. Also they got some details on social stuff. I'm not gonna buy their book though.
jaerad 06-16-05, 12:40 AM	Unearthed Arcana has rules for Vitality/Wound points. There's a certain amount of damage you can "shrug off" and a seperate pool from which one lucky hit can flat out kill you. If you don't like how HP work, don't use them. The thing is, you're right. How many people would like LotR if Frodo slipped while climbing and broke his fool neck? Kinda makes heroes seem a lil less heroic, eh? What if Achilles wasn't invincible ('cept for tendon) and passed out from heat stroke? What if Luke tripped while carrying Yoda on his back and Yoda faceplanted into a tree and went retarded? People like fantasy because it's NOT REALITY. No one wants the character that they've invested years of time and energy into to just up and die. It's nice that you can die, otherwise there'd be no challenge/fun. And some people (like me for instance) do want their character's to die. Sure, I'll be ******, but I'll roll up a new guy. Maybe I'll avenge my death, maybe I'll play someplace else intirely. I'll most likely try a new character, rather than make a "replacement" for my old one. Some day I may go back and try it again, reviving my old concept and hashing it out again. But even though I want to die, I don't want to roll through 10 characters in two weeks. I don't just rollplay and my lack of creativity makes coming up with interesting, non-cookie-cutter characters quite difficult. I'm not looking to make invincible parties, but a certain amount of rules I leave out because it's "safer." Crits as body part loss is a good example. It's cool, sure. Realistic, maybe. But fun? Not really. As the DMG says on the subject, in the end it hurts parties more than it helps. Just like how monsters help parties more than hinder, it's not enough that Mind Flayers have 8 HD, the powers they have far outshine what a level 8 character would have - so in comes LA to cover the holes. Back to HP and AC.. "Rolling with it" is partially about shrugging off damage, and partially about guarding your weak spots a lil better. Why can a level 100 character survive being knifed in his sleep? He can't, I'd easily rule that a coup de grace (though not technically helpless, if you don't see it coming and are that defenseless - sorry man, knife across the neck gonna keel j00). But maybe he wakes up and has a second for his nigh-divine reflexes to save him. Or maybe he has some BA DR. Skin heals up as fast as you can cut it, cutting his skin is like trying to cut through a steel bar with a butter knife, whatever you want to describe his DR as.
Ranger REG 06-16-05, 04:32 AM	Yes, but I was suggesting a way of figuring out the particular numbers to use for the D&D classes (which don't quite map onto d20 Modern classes). If you want to write the numbers on a table, that's cool. One thing I would avoid is including the initial +2 on such a table, so you don't get characters really good at avoiding being hit just because they multiclass. (The same could be--and has been--said about saving throw bonuses.) So, I gotta do this table for you? What my incentive? :bored: