Alternate Elemental System [Archive] - Wizards Community

Alternate Elemental System [Archive] - Wizards Community

Post/Author/DateTime Post
srkingdavy
02-07-05, 10:17 PM Hello, I have been working for a little while on the elemental system in dnd, this is what I have come up with. Any ideas/suggestions are gratefully accepted!

This is basically an attempt to combine the buddhist (fire, air, water, earth, aether) and chinese (wood, fire, earth, metal, water) element systems. They both have 3 elements in common (fire, water, earth), which makes the final count 7 elements:

air, water, metal, aether, fire, wood, earth.

From various research, here are some associations with those elements, in both buddhist and chinese philosophy.

AIR: emotion/volition, five senses, fearlessness, Realm of demons

WATER: Wisdom, Form, Cold, Listening, Hearing, Knowledge, Will, Shelled Animals

METAL: Speech, Smell, Soul, Furred Animals

AETHER: Cognition / Consiousness, Magic, Teaching, Mind, Delusion, Realm of Gods

FIRE: Taste, Subtle Observation, Conception / Perception, creativity, Meditation, Winged Animals

WOOD: Sight, Countenance, Scaled Animals

EARTH: Touch, Defiled Mind, Giving, Human Realm, Naked Animals(Humans)

In addition, of course, each element would also be associated with the substance its name suggests (the element "fire" would be associated with actual fire, i.e. fireball etc.)

I am designing this to be the primary means of casting magic in my campaign, as in all spellcasters will be aligned to one or more of the elements, and various classes will be created that correspond to one, some, or all of the elements at once. Any ideas/comments/suggestions?
Xeviat-DM
02-08-05, 09:52 AM Similar to my campaign, though I'm only using five elements. I have linked my five elements (akin to the budhist elements) to five chakras. Each character has certain ranks in their chakras, determined by their starting ability scores and where they place their ranks through the levels. As their chakras grow in strength, so do the ability scores that are tied to each chakra. Your chakras also determine your caster level with spells of each element, so you cannot be a great caster in all elements.

There are still some kinks to work out though. If you're willing to come over to my thread on this very board (it's still a front pager) and help me with it, I'm more than willing to help you adapt it to your game.
OmiKapSi
02-10-05, 01:14 PM Are the elementals as standard elementals? What do wood, metal and aether elementals look like? Do they even exist?

Are there elemental oppositions? Is fire opposed to water? Earth to air? Wood to metal?

I've found that the shugenja and wu jen classes adapt very well to elemental oriented classes. The shugenja, with their focus on a single element in particular (in my setting, they are called elementalists, and virtually unchanged).

What resources are you using? I've found useful info in Oriental adventures, Manual of the Planes, and there's a nifty elemental paragon prestige class in Faiths and Pantheons (a FRCS book about gods).
Judging Eagle
02-11-05, 12:46 AM Hmm, If I was going for an elemental type modification I'd go for the following:

Good
Evil
Wind
Water
Fire
Earth

Good hurts Evil targets and vice versa, while the others work on the following chain:

Fire > Earth > Wind > Water > Fire ...

Not too original mind you but it allows things from other elemental plains to be damaged by elemental weapons while not having that silly hot/cold system already in place (plus odd things like acid doing lots of damage to water....).
Xeviat-DM
02-13-05, 09:28 PM Hmm, If I was going for an elemental type modification I'd go for the following:

Good
Evil
Wind
Water
Fire
Earth

Good hurts Evil targets and vice versa, while the others work on the following chain:

Fire > Earth > Wind > Water > Fire ...

I would advise that you do it as follows:
Fire > Air > Earth > Water > Fire

Fire consumes air,
Air errodes earth,
Earth absorbs water,
Water extinguishes fire.

This set up was one of my originals. I found that fire <-> water, air <-> earth was easier to impliment into D&D. Cold is water, electricity is air, and acid is earth.
dragoncc
02-13-05, 10:04 PM snip
In addition, of course, each element would also be associated with the substance its name suggests (the element "fire" would be associated with actual fire, i.e. fireball etc.)

I am designing this to be the primary means of casting magic in my campaign, as in all spellcasters will be aligned to one or more of the elements, and various classes will be created that correspond to one, some, or all of the elements at once. Any ideas/comments/suggestions?
First off let me say, good idea. I've seen a few variations of reclassifying spells & this is conceptually anyway, an interesting way of doing it. BUT, implementing it may be nerve-wracking to say the least. I've got a couple of questions to get make sure I'm on the right track with you & then we'll see what develops ;)

So all of the spells in the current system will be converted into one of the 7 elements? (akin to sphere designations in 2e)

Are you keeping school designations as well? (hope so, or you'll be doing alot of rewriting of other material)

If so, how are you determining precedence for those which fit into more than one by the classification system you've derived? (i.e. for air there is five senses; but earth includes touch, wood includes sight, etc.)

What does it mean to be aligned with more than one element gamewise?

Does choosing more than one element decrease your effectiveness with each other element in any way? (i.e. not being able to cast the highest level of spells)

As OmiKapSi asked, are there elementals for the other elements & are there planes associated with them as well? If so how do they interact with the established ones (With 7 being odd, where do the oppositions overlap or is one element simply on its own?)

Well, I've brainstormed a couple of questions there that I think need to be answered before anymore meaningful progress can be made on my part. Looking forward to your responses.
srkingdavy
02-14-05, 05:36 AM First off let me say, good idea. I've seen a few variations of reclassifying spells & this is conceptually anyway, an interesting way of doing it. BUT, implementing it may be nerve-wracking to say the least. I've got a couple of questions to get make sure I'm on the right track with you & then we'll see what develops ;)

So all of the spells in the current system will be converted into one of the 7 elements? (akin to sphere designations in 2e)

that is correct.

Are you keeping school designations as well? (hope so, or you'll be doing alot of rewriting of other material)

I do admittedly like Xeviat DM's idea of having fewer schools. The school's I'm gonna go for are:

Evocation (damage dealing and healing)
Enchantment (effects over time)
Summoning

If so, how are you determining precedence for those which fit into more than one by the classification system you've derived? (i.e. for air there is five senses; but earth includes touch, wood includes sight, etc.)

A "arcane eye" spell would be both air and wood, for example.

What does it mean to be aligned with more than one element gamewise?

I'm not quite sure what you mean by this.

Does choosing more than one element decrease your effectiveness with each other element in any way? (i.e. not being able to cast the highest level of spells)

You got it.

As OmiKapSi asked, are there elementals for the other elements & are there planes associated with them as well? If so how do they interact with the established ones (With 7 being odd, where do the oppositions overlap or is one element simply on its own?)

Void is on its own, and is probably more "powerful" than the others.

Well, I've brainstormed a couple of questions there that I think need to be answered before anymore meaningful progress can be made on my part. Looking forward to your responses.
srkingdavy
02-21-05, 01:05 AM :bump:
dragoncc
02-23-05, 11:10 AM Heya, sorry went out of town for the last week & didn't see your reply until today.

I do admittedly like Xeviat DM's idea of having fewer schools. The school's I'm gonna go for are:

Evocation (damage dealing and healing)
Enchantment (effects over time)
Summoning.
Hmm, haven't gotten a chance to look over that, but I've been looking at making more schools, not less; but I'll give it a look.

A "arcane eye" spell would be both air and wood, for example.
Ok, so there will be quite a few overlapping spells then, but each will have its own primary element only spells -- I like it.

I'm not quite sure what you mean by this.
Along the lines of the question that followed. I was just wondering, other than flavor, are there any game effects of your elemental schools. Also along the lines of the following:
Is there a weakness to opposing magics?
How does this affect counterspelling (if at all in your system)?
What, if any, specializations will you go with? Are you using the PHB specialist or something else (I would go with something else)

Void is on its own, and is probably more "powerful" than the others.
Void? is this a.k.a. aether?
srkingdavy
02-24-05, 07:27 AM Void is in fact the same as aether.

There are three ways to counterspell (the first two are as standard)

1.) counter using same spell
2.) counter using dispel magic (a void/aether spell)
3.) counter using an elemental dispel (which is more powerful-per-level than dispel magic. Wood will have a dispel metal for example)

A wizard can choose to specialize in one or two non-aether elements, as long as both of those elements are not opposed.

(using the UA spell points system by the way)

for single-specialized wizards, 1/3 their spell points are considered "specialized". for dual-specialized, 1/7th their spell points are considered "specialized" for each element (a fire-earth mage with 70 spell points would thus get 10 fire points, 10 earth points, and 50 non-specialized points)

A specialized spell point may be used to cast any spell except for its polar opposite.

whenever a wizard casts a spell using EXCLUSIVELY the type of spell points in the descriptor of the spell, he may apply a metamagic feat to that spell. The type of metamagic feat that can be applied is determined by maximum spell level castable, and subtracting the metamagic feat's plus to level.

To explain: a wizard is capable of casting 5th level spells. If he casts a fireball (3rd level) using only fire spell points, he can, for free, apply a +2 metamagic feat to the spell (or two +1 metamagic feats)

in addition, the wizard may choose ONE of the following benefits:
* any saving throw DCs associated with the spell are increased by 1.
* +1 caster level to penetrate spell resistance.

if a spell has multiple element descriptors, the wizard casting the spell chooses which is in effect. The wizard can choose this at time of casting, and does not need to choose when memorizing spells for the day.

Metamagic feats may never be applied to a wizard's opposing element(s).

As far as weaknesses go, not inherently. I would like to design some feats with the general structure of "gain some bonus in X element, you are slightly more weak regarding the opposite element". so the players decide if they want more power in exchange for becoming weaker in the opposite element (not only casting it themselves but having it cast -on- them...)

oh, by the way, sorcs arent playable... this is less of a play balance thing as a "that's just how magic works in this world" thing. (there are sorcerers, but they're very rare and not the PCs. think half dragons.)

I hope this makes sense. let me know if it doesn't, which seems very likely.

P.S. I forgot something important, wizards in this game gain metamagic feats. These bonus feats are a replacement and are NOT added on to the wizard's normal one feat every 5 levels. The spacing of feats is dependent on the power level of that feat, determined by the feat's level modifier +1. for example, if a wizard took silent spell at 1st level, he would get another metamagic feat at 3rd level. For this reason it is vitally important that a wizard track when he got each bonus feat...
serow_#R
02-26-05, 09:08 AM i've always liked the element system from grandia 1

4 basic elements :
earth
fire
wind
water

from there 4 more advanced elements
earth + fire = atomic (?)
wind + water = ice
fire + wind = lightning
earth + water = nature (?)

and of coz light and dark are 2 special categories reserved for special characters (like NPCs whom the players can WooooWWWW at ~ )
:)

just my 2 cents...
srkingdavy
02-26-05, 10:32 AM thanks, but I think that the traditional aristotelian elemental system has been adequately covered in other systems. I'm pretty sure these are the elements I want to use.

Post/Author/DateTime	Post
srkingdavy 02-07-05, 10:17 PM	Hello, I have been working for a little while on the elemental system in dnd, this is what I have come up with. Any ideas/suggestions are gratefully accepted! This is basically an attempt to combine the buddhist (fire, air, water, earth, aether) and chinese (wood, fire, earth, metal, water) element systems. They both have 3 elements in common (fire, water, earth), which makes the final count 7 elements: air, water, metal, aether, fire, wood, earth. From various research, here are some associations with those elements, in both buddhist and chinese philosophy. AIR: emotion/volition, five senses, fearlessness, Realm of demons WATER: Wisdom, Form, Cold, Listening, Hearing, Knowledge, Will, Shelled Animals METAL: Speech, Smell, Soul, Furred Animals AETHER: Cognition / Consiousness, Magic, Teaching, Mind, Delusion, Realm of Gods FIRE: Taste, Subtle Observation, Conception / Perception, creativity, Meditation, Winged Animals WOOD: Sight, Countenance, Scaled Animals EARTH: Touch, Defiled Mind, Giving, Human Realm, Naked Animals(Humans) In addition, of course, each element would also be associated with the substance its name suggests (the element "fire" would be associated with actual fire, i.e. fireball etc.) I am designing this to be the primary means of casting magic in my campaign, as in all spellcasters will be aligned to one or more of the elements, and various classes will be created that correspond to one, some, or all of the elements at once. Any ideas/comments/suggestions?
Xeviat-DM 02-08-05, 09:52 AM	Similar to my campaign, though I'm only using five elements. I have linked my five elements (akin to the budhist elements) to five chakras. Each character has certain ranks in their chakras, determined by their starting ability scores and where they place their ranks through the levels. As their chakras grow in strength, so do the ability scores that are tied to each chakra. Your chakras also determine your caster level with spells of each element, so you cannot be a great caster in all elements. There are still some kinks to work out though. If you're willing to come over to my thread on this very board (it's still a front pager) and help me with it, I'm more than willing to help you adapt it to your game.
OmiKapSi 02-10-05, 01:14 PM	Are the elementals as standard elementals? What do wood, metal and aether elementals look like? Do they even exist? Are there elemental oppositions? Is fire opposed to water? Earth to air? Wood to metal? I've found that the shugenja and wu jen classes adapt very well to elemental oriented classes. The shugenja, with their focus on a single element in particular (in my setting, they are called elementalists, and virtually unchanged). What resources are you using? I've found useful info in Oriental adventures, Manual of the Planes, and there's a nifty elemental paragon prestige class in Faiths and Pantheons (a FRCS book about gods).
Judging Eagle 02-11-05, 12:46 AM	Hmm, If I was going for an elemental type modification I'd go for the following: Good Evil Wind Water Fire Earth Good hurts Evil targets and vice versa, while the others work on the following chain: Fire > Earth > Wind > Water > Fire ... Not too original mind you but it allows things from other elemental plains to be damaged by elemental weapons while not having that silly hot/cold system already in place (plus odd things like acid doing lots of damage to water....).
Xeviat-DM 02-13-05, 09:28 PM	Hmm, If I was going for an elemental type modification I'd go for the following: Good Evil Wind Water Fire Earth Good hurts Evil targets and vice versa, while the others work on the following chain: Fire > Earth > Wind > Water > Fire ... I would advise that you do it as follows: Fire > Air > Earth > Water > Fire Fire consumes air, Air errodes earth, Earth absorbs water, Water extinguishes fire. This set up was one of my originals. I found that fire <-> water, air <-> earth was easier to impliment into D&D. Cold is water, electricity is air, and acid is earth.
dragoncc 02-13-05, 10:04 PM	snip In addition, of course, each element would also be associated with the substance its name suggests (the element "fire" would be associated with actual fire, i.e. fireball etc.) I am designing this to be the primary means of casting magic in my campaign, as in all spellcasters will be aligned to one or more of the elements, and various classes will be created that correspond to one, some, or all of the elements at once. Any ideas/comments/suggestions? First off let me say, good idea. I've seen a few variations of reclassifying spells & this is conceptually anyway, an interesting way of doing it. BUT, implementing it may be nerve-wracking to say the least. I've got a couple of questions to get make sure I'm on the right track with you & then we'll see what develops ;) So all of the spells in the current system will be converted into one of the 7 elements? (akin to sphere designations in 2e) Are you keeping school designations as well? (hope so, or you'll be doing alot of rewriting of other material) If so, how are you determining precedence for those which fit into more than one by the classification system you've derived? (i.e. for air there is five senses; but earth includes touch, wood includes sight, etc.) What does it mean to be aligned with more than one element gamewise? Does choosing more than one element decrease your effectiveness with each other element in any way? (i.e. not being able to cast the highest level of spells) As OmiKapSi asked, are there elementals for the other elements & are there planes associated with them as well? If so how do they interact with the established ones (With 7 being odd, where do the oppositions overlap or is one element simply on its own?) Well, I've brainstormed a couple of questions there that I think need to be answered before anymore meaningful progress can be made on my part. Looking forward to your responses.
srkingdavy 02-14-05, 05:36 AM	First off let me say, good idea. I've seen a few variations of reclassifying spells & this is conceptually anyway, an interesting way of doing it. BUT, implementing it may be nerve-wracking to say the least. I've got a couple of questions to get make sure I'm on the right track with you & then we'll see what develops ;) So all of the spells in the current system will be converted into one of the 7 elements? (akin to sphere designations in 2e) that is correct. Are you keeping school designations as well? (hope so, or you'll be doing alot of rewriting of other material) I do admittedly like Xeviat DM's idea of having fewer schools. The school's I'm gonna go for are: Evocation (damage dealing and healing) Enchantment (effects over time) Summoning If so, how are you determining precedence for those which fit into more than one by the classification system you've derived? (i.e. for air there is five senses; but earth includes touch, wood includes sight, etc.) A "arcane eye" spell would be both air and wood, for example. What does it mean to be aligned with more than one element gamewise? I'm not quite sure what you mean by this. Does choosing more than one element decrease your effectiveness with each other element in any way? (i.e. not being able to cast the highest level of spells) You got it. As OmiKapSi asked, are there elementals for the other elements & are there planes associated with them as well? If so how do they interact with the established ones (With 7 being odd, where do the oppositions overlap or is one element simply on its own?) Void is on its own, and is probably more "powerful" than the others. Well, I've brainstormed a couple of questions there that I think need to be answered before anymore meaningful progress can be made on my part. Looking forward to your responses.
srkingdavy 02-21-05, 01:05 AM	:bump:
dragoncc 02-23-05, 11:10 AM	Heya, sorry went out of town for the last week & didn't see your reply until today. I do admittedly like Xeviat DM's idea of having fewer schools. The school's I'm gonna go for are: Evocation (damage dealing and healing) Enchantment (effects over time) Summoning. Hmm, haven't gotten a chance to look over that, but I've been looking at making more schools, not less; but I'll give it a look. A "arcane eye" spell would be both air and wood, for example. Ok, so there will be quite a few overlapping spells then, but each will have its own primary element only spells -- I like it. I'm not quite sure what you mean by this. Along the lines of the question that followed. I was just wondering, other than flavor, are there any game effects of your elemental schools. Also along the lines of the following: Is there a weakness to opposing magics? How does this affect counterspelling (if at all in your system)? What, if any, specializations will you go with? Are you using the PHB specialist or something else (I would go with something else) Void is on its own, and is probably more "powerful" than the others. Void? is this a.k.a. aether?
srkingdavy 02-24-05, 07:27 AM	Void is in fact the same as aether. There are three ways to counterspell (the first two are as standard) 1.) counter using same spell 2.) counter using dispel magic (a void/aether spell) 3.) counter using an elemental dispel (which is more powerful-per-level than dispel magic. Wood will have a dispel metal for example) A wizard can choose to specialize in one or two non-aether elements, as long as both of those elements are not opposed. (using the UA spell points system by the way) for single-specialized wizards, 1/3 their spell points are considered "specialized". for dual-specialized, 1/7th their spell points are considered "specialized" for each element (a fire-earth mage with 70 spell points would thus get 10 fire points, 10 earth points, and 50 non-specialized points) A specialized spell point may be used to cast any spell except for its polar opposite. whenever a wizard casts a spell using EXCLUSIVELY the type of spell points in the descriptor of the spell, he may apply a metamagic feat to that spell. The type of metamagic feat that can be applied is determined by maximum spell level castable, and subtracting the metamagic feat's plus to level. To explain: a wizard is capable of casting 5th level spells. If he casts a fireball (3rd level) using only fire spell points, he can, for free, apply a +2 metamagic feat to the spell (or two +1 metamagic feats) in addition, the wizard may choose ONE of the following benefits: * any saving throw DCs associated with the spell are increased by 1. * +1 caster level to penetrate spell resistance. if a spell has multiple element descriptors, the wizard casting the spell chooses which is in effect. The wizard can choose this at time of casting, and does not need to choose when memorizing spells for the day. Metamagic feats may never be applied to a wizard's opposing element(s). As far as weaknesses go, not inherently. I would like to design some feats with the general structure of "gain some bonus in X element, you are slightly more weak regarding the opposite element". so the players decide if they want more power in exchange for becoming weaker in the opposite element (not only casting it themselves but having it cast -on- them...) oh, by the way, sorcs arent playable... this is less of a play balance thing as a "that's just how magic works in this world" thing. (there are sorcerers, but they're very rare and not the PCs. think half dragons.) I hope this makes sense. let me know if it doesn't, which seems very likely. P.S. I forgot something important, wizards in this game gain metamagic feats. These bonus feats are a replacement and are NOT added on to the wizard's normal one feat every 5 levels. The spacing of feats is dependent on the power level of that feat, determined by the feat's level modifier +1. for example, if a wizard took silent spell at 1st level, he would get another metamagic feat at 3rd level. For this reason it is vitally important that a wizard track when he got each bonus feat...
serow_#R 02-26-05, 09:08 AM	i've always liked the element system from grandia 1 4 basic elements : earth fire wind water from there 4 more advanced elements earth + fire = atomic (?) wind + water = ice fire + wind = lightning earth + water = nature (?) and of coz light and dark are 2 special categories reserved for special characters (like NPCs whom the players can WooooWWWW at ~ ) :) just my 2 cents...
srkingdavy 02-26-05, 10:32 AM	thanks, but I think that the traditional aristotelian elemental system has been adequately covered in other systems. I'm pretty sure these are the elements I want to use.