Post/Author/DateTime	Post
Xeviat-DM 07-23-04, 03:37 AM	On page 58, there is a varient rogue and fighter in which they can swap out their bonus feats or sneak attack for the other's ability. Yet, on page 76, there are three feats meant for the generic classes which grant sneak attack. After taking all 3 feats, the character possesses 9d6 sneak attack. So my question is this: is the feat style rogue truely a balanced class, or does it gain too many bonus feats?
Orcboss 07-23-04, 10:56 AM	I don't think it's overpowered. Look at it this way, would you consider taking a fighter's BAB and HD down to rogue levels to gain 8 skill points/level overpowered?
Drizzt Clone 07-24-04, 11:23 AM	Rogues, in addition to steak attack, have the following abilities: Trapfinding, evasion, (improved) uncanny dodge, trap sense, and 4 special abilities chosen from a list of 6 (or any bonus feat for which he meets the prerequisites). The rogue variant Special column would look like this: Bonus feat, trapfinding Bonus feat, evasion Trap sense +1 Bonus feat, uncanny dodge -- Bonus feat, trap sense +2 -- Bonus feat, improved uncanny dodge Trap sense +3 Bonus feat, special ability -- Bonus feat, trap sense +4 Special ability Bonus feat Trap sense +5 Bonus feat, special ability -- Bonus feat, Trap sense +6 Special ability Bonus feat A bit powerful, I think.
Orcboss 07-24-04, 03:21 PM	Originally posted by Drizzt Clone A bit powerful, I think. I think it really depends on how valuable you think a die of Sneak Attack is worth. Personally, I think a fighter bonus feat is not as valuable, especially at higher levels. If you get into a position to use Sneak Attack, which rogues often do, you get to add all your dice to each attack's damage. If I was a rogue, I'd rather have 4d6 extra damage than just about any four fighter feats. Even if you had Weapon Focus, Power Attack, Weapon Specialization*, and any other one you want, +4d6 damage is still a better deal. *I have a rogue taking this option in an upcoming game, but since Weapon Specialization specifically requires 4th Ftr, I decided he can't take it.
SirisC 07-25-04, 05:21 PM	Originally posted by Orcboss I think it really depends on how valuable you think a die of Sneak Attack is worth. Personally, I think a fighter bonus feat is not as valuable, especially at higher levels. If you get into a position to use Sneak Attack, which rogues often do, you get to add all your dice to each attack's damage. If I was a rogue, I'd rather have 4d6 extra damage than just about any four fighter feats. Even if you had Weapon Focus, Power Attack, Weapon Specialization*, and any other one you want, +4d6 damage is still a better deal. *I have a rogue taking this option in an upcoming game, but since Weapon Specialization specifically requires 4th Ftr, I decided he can't take it. what about his mention of the 3 feats mentioned to gain sneak attack? If they consider 9d6 sneak attack to be worth only 3 feats why give a rogue 11 bonus feats in exchange for sneak attack?
Orcboss 07-25-04, 11:15 PM	Well, for starters, it isn't just three feats. Take a look at the pre-reqs on the sneak attack feats in the generic class section. Sneak Attack: +2d6 dice, requires 4 ranks of Move Silently and Hide Improved Sneak Attack: +3d6 more dice, requires 11 ranks each of Move Silently and Hide Greater Sneak Attack: +4d6 more dice, 18 ranks each Move Silently and Hide, Evasion (which must also be bought as a feat on its own) It's not like you could just take the Expert generic class and dump all your first level feats into sneak attack and have +9d6 damage. It takes at least 4 feats (counting the Evasion pre-req) and being at least 15th level (max ranks on Hide and MS). If a die of sneak attack is the same as or less than a feat, why the big pre-reqs?
SirisC 07-26-04, 01:19 AM	Well, so that you can't get +9d6 sneak attack damage at early levels. if it didn't have those prerequisits, a generic human warrior could have +9d6 sneak attack by level 2. with those prerequisites it is more like this: level rogue feat tree 1 1d6 2d6 2 3 2d6 4 5 3d6 6 7 4d6 8 5d6 9 5d6 10 11 6d6 12 13 7d6 14 15 8d6 9d6 16 17 9d6 18 19 10d6
Orcboss 07-26-04, 10:09 AM	Another thing to consider is that the generic class system classes don't have any special abilities (apart from the spellcaster). The only way they get anything is with feats. Consequently, some class features (Sneak Attack, Rage) get made into feats that normally wouldn't fit well in a more standard campaign.
geist324 07-28-04, 03:28 AM	My question is this: since the Variant Rogue "Gains bonus feats as a fighter", does this allow them to get Weapon Specializatioin, since it requires 4 levels of fighter? Or Greater Weapon Focus or Greater Weapon Specialization for that matter.
Xeviat-DM 07-28-04, 07:59 PM	Originally posted by geist324 My question is this: since the Variant Rogue "Gains bonus feats as a fighter", does this allow them to get Weapon Specializatioin, since it requires 4 levels of fighter? Or Greater Weapon Focus or Greater Weapon Specialization for that matter. Seems like it. And I hadn't noticed the Evasion requirement, but stating the Hide and Move Silently ranks as a requirement is kind of funny actually. Almost every sneak attacker would want those ranks, except maybe a straight out melee fighter who wanted to do more damage.
Orcboss 07-29-04, 11:57 AM	Like I said earlier, I wouldn't allow taking specialization because it specifically requires four levels of fighter. Not just certain feats, but four levels of fighter. As for the prereqs on the sneak attack feats, I don't think they're that silly. Sure, a rogue would probably have those ranks anyway. Odds are, a fighter or wizard or cleric wouldn't. If those ranks weren't there, a generic warrior class charcater could drop three feats (Evasion, SA, ISA) and have 5 dice of sneak attack at first or second level. That's well before a generic expert on the rogue path could manage it.
Lina_Inverse 08-01-04, 02:05 AM	1 die of sneak attack is worth FAR more than most feats,even EPIC ones.unless you think a feat is worth +1d6 damege to nearly every attack you ever make.which clearly...ITS NOT! a feat rogue is worthless,sorta like a fighter.bonus feats arent very powerfull.
E-Arkham 08-02-04, 09:22 PM	The variant rogue, as written, would not let you take Weapon Specialization since your character levels are still rogue levels rather than fighter levels. You're only gaining the fighter bonus feat progression, not fighter levels. Also remember that you're limited to fighter bonus feats, for what it's worth. I'll reserve my judgement on power/balance issues until after I've played the new character using this variant rogue I'd rolled up this weekend -- He's based on Great Teacher Onizuka, for those curious, and a rogue with fighter feats (one of which will be unarmed strike, of course) seemed appropos. Now... if I can just figure out how to build a steam-powered motorcycle by the rules... Kep
bootor 08-02-04, 10:10 PM	If you play in an undead or any campain that is mainly crit/sneak attack proof monsters then sneak attack isn't worth not much at all. Especially at higher levels when you can get heavy fortification.