Post/Author/DateTime	Post
ZeroSpace9000 07-23-07, 01:45 AM	Just wondering what you all have in the way of alternate stats for Half-orcs. As it stands, they suck VERY hard; so bad in fact that the standard PC race that is most meant for beatstickery is played most often for flavour. One possibility is changing the +2Str-2Int-2Cha ability bumps to +2Str-2Int/Cha, players choice. I'm curious what all you have though. Also, some possibilities for Half-elf would be good too, although they don't need it as bad as Half-orcs.
TheAnthroDM 07-23-07, 04:26 AM	Bad idea, either choose one or the other, I'd say +2 Str, -2 Int, because the Charisma penalty hurts Intimidate which doesn't make any sense. If you want better Half-Orcs then eliminate any penalty and give them a bonus feat. They can now compete.
058 07-23-07, 09:45 AM	For the campaign setting I'm working on, I give half-orcs the choice of -2 in one of wisdom, intelligence, or charisma. Seems like that way, you can make a decent wizard or sorcerer if you want.
runestar 07-23-07, 10:05 AM	I like the idea of choosing either an int or cha penalty (the funny thing was that I was muling over a similar concept prior to reading your post). However, most players are likely to choose to dump cha anyways, meaning you effectively have a race granting +2str/-2cha. The flavour could be that the human blood helps mitigate some, but not all of the orc's mental deficiencies. As to what orcish traits still remain, that is up to the player to decide.:)
Kadasbrass 07-23-07, 11:51 AM	Out of normal balance reasons, charisma is really a poor choice for giving a negative to since for more players the penalty won't effect them. For every other stat a penalty affects the player regardless of class in some manner (except str which is not use by most spellcasters) in the form of hp, saves, and ac. This of course is ignoring the effect of ability scores has on skills since all ability scores have an affect on skills. I also recommend not allowing a player to choose which stat to apply penalties since they will choose the one of least effect on them. However with that said, if you choose to leave the half-orc other stats the same then I recommend applying the penalty to charisma since the half-orc lacks any other racial traits other then darkvision. The net effect is that having the penalty in a ability score most players won't need is balanced but the fact half-orc doesn't give much of anything else. However if you do give half-orc actual racial traits, then I recommend having the penalty to intelligence so that there is opportinuty cost for half-orcs (less skill points, less likely to have access to the combat expertise feat tree).
ZeroSpace9000 07-23-07, 12:26 PM	Hmm, interesting. The only thing with adding new abilities is that, as a base, orcs get very little that half-orcs don't already have, and they can't really get anything from their human side without completely outdoing that race.
Kadasbrass 07-23-07, 12:59 PM	Oh I know, I use 12 races in my campaign, had to redo almost everyone of them. Think only human and halfling made it out with just few minor additions to them.
MagicMouth 07-23-07, 01:31 PM	I´m thinking of somethings like this: +2 Str, -2 Int. Medium. Base Land Speed 30 ft. Darkvision 60 ft. +2 racial bonus on Intimidate and Sense Motive checks.* Orc Blood. Automatic Languages: Common och Orc. Bonus Languages: Draconic, Giant, Gnoll, Goblin, och Abyssal. Favored Class: Any.** *My reasoning is that half-orcs are better at frightening others both due to their heritage as well as the usually rough conditions of their upbringing. The also learn to be wary of other peoples´ intentions. **Seeing as half-elves inherit some of the human flexibiliy, why shouldn´t half-orcs do so as well? Good/Bad?
Seldriss 07-23-07, 01:59 PM	My version : +2 Str, +2 Con, -2 Cha (no Int penalty) Darkvision 60 Endurance Intimidate +1, Listen +1, Spot +1, Survival +1, Diplomacy -1, Gather Information -1 Reaction penalty : -2 to social skills towards humans I don't give them Int penalty, which can explain how they survive and even sometimes lead some orc clans. Before i was giving them a free feat, but i removed it as i figured they were already fine without that. However, their reaction penalty doesn't make their life easy in front of humans and the civilization, which is often a big disadvantage.
TheAnthroDM 07-23-07, 06:17 PM	My version : +2 Str, +2 Con, -2 Cha (no Int penalty) Darkvision 60 Endurance Intimidate +1, Listen +1, Spot +1, Survival +1, Diplomacy -1, Gather Information -1 Reaction penalty : -2 to social skills towards humans So my half-orc nets a total -3 to his intimate check against humans?
pres_man 07-23-07, 07:04 PM	My version -no charisma penalty -can treat orc double-axe as martial
Count_Chumleigh 07-23-07, 07:25 PM	Like many others, I have removed the Charisma penalty to half-orcs in my games. I also let half-orcs have Favored Class: Any, a +2 racial bonus to Intimidate checks, and treat the Orc Double-Axe as a martial rather than exotic weapon. Everything else stays the same. In my experience, though, no one ever uses the double-axe, probably for the same reason no one's ever used the Gnome Hook-Hammer: it's silly. Cheers, --Count Chumleigh
Kadasbrass 07-23-07, 08:23 PM	Well, in the case of double weapons, its for a highly specialized build in order to use them. Most times its rogues that benefit from two-weapon fighting in conjuction with sneak attack. I considered giving half-orcs the weapon familarity with double axe, but then decided to switch it to bastard sword, under idea it would be more useful and could be reasoned that orcs being bit bigger and stronger could hold it in one hand easier. But even then I ditched it along with most weapon familiaries in my races. My half-orcs use: +2 str -2 int, darkvision 60 feet, bonus feat at lvl 1, +2 intimidate and any other skill, +2 save bonus against necromancy and feat effects.
Krusk 07-23-07, 10:01 PM	My half-orcs are the standard half-orc with the following addition familarity with orc weapons opt to use str on intimidate checks instead of cha. Makes them a little better but not too much, now they get cool weapons like orc double axe, or shot-put. And they don't always get awful intimidate if they want to go for a big mean menacing guy who is quiet and passive until he is unhappy. Stands in the corner unnoticed and then when he steps up to stare down the offender all of a sudden everyone knows who he is and what he is going to do.
runestar 07-23-07, 10:52 PM	Familiarity with double axe does not make sense from a flavour POV. Despite its name, even orcs themselves rarely use said weapon. Automatic proficiency with greataxe or something would be more apt, IMO.
pres_man 07-23-07, 10:53 PM	In my experience, though, no one ever uses the double-axe, probably for the same reason no one's ever used the Gnome Hook-Hammer: it's silly. I had a guy playing a full orc (let full orcs treat double-axe as martial as well), who took levels in barbarian, fighter and ranger. He'd charge and power attack using his double-axe two-handed (getting 2-1 power attack) and then when he full attacked he'd use both ends. He was a nasty combatant.
Krusk 07-23-07, 11:23 PM	i didnt list all "orc" weapons. But i include double axe, shot put, and long/shortspear- the weapon of gruumsh-. Also, flavor for my game may not be the same as flavor for yours. Keep that in mind.
nonsi 07-24-07, 04:00 AM	My version : +2 Str, +2 Con, -2 Cha (no Int penalty) Darkvision 60 Endurance Intimidate +1, Listen +1, Spot +1, Survival +1, Diplomacy -1, Gather Information -1 Reaction penalty : -2 to social skills towards humans I like the general direction a lot, but have a slightly different approach: +2 Str, +2 Con, -2 Cha Darkvision 60 Endurance Intimidate +2 (for a total of +1 after Cha is taken into account), Listen +1, Spot +1, Survival +1, Diplomacy -2, Gather Information -2 Reaction penalty : -2 to social skills towards humans I too find INT penalty inappropriate, since this ability stands for the ability to learn: analysis of new information and memory capacity. It has nothing to do with background. If at all, a more appropriate ability score would be wisdom.
Seldriss 07-24-07, 08:39 AM	I must precise that the point is that the half-orcs use their Strength modifier for Intimidate, not their Charisma, so the penalty to social skills doesn't apply to it.
eamon 07-24-07, 12:24 PM	I like the general direction a lot, but have a slightly different approach: +2 Str, +2 Con, -2 Cha Darkvision 60 Endurance Intimidate +2 (for a total of +1 after Cha is taken into account), Listen +1, Spot +1, Survival +1, Diplomacy -2, Gather Information -2 Reaction penalty : -2 to social skills towards humans I too find INT penalty inappropriate, since this ability stands for the ability to learn: analysis of new information and memory capacity. It has nothing to do with background. If at all, a more appropriate ability score would be wisdom. This strikes me as being too powerful. Far too powerful actually. Str is the single most important stat for fighters, and this is simply too good. It would probably be too good if you left the Int penalty intact, but this is then the only core race with a positive ability adjustment. Kind of like a dwarf, but then with 10ft more movement and +2 str, and endurance, and missing the +2 on saves vs. spells. It's definitely too good - and that's compared to dwarves, which are quite good at what they excel at.
Warforged Goblin 07-24-07, 01:28 PM	From my campaign booklet (yes, I have one). - Half-orcs and their subraces have the following racial traits: • +2 Str, -2 Int or -2 Cha. All half-orcs draw strength from their orcish ancestry while their human side tends to make them intelligent yet slightly introverted or charismatic and a slow-learner. • Medium size • Base land speed of 30 feet • Darkvision 30 ft • Weapon Familiarity: Half-orcs treat the orc double axe and the orc shot-put as martial weapons, not exotic weapons. • Orc Blood: See Player’s Handbook page 19 for details. • +2 racial bonus on Intimidate. Half-orcs are naturally brusque and use that to their advantage. • +2 racial bonus on Survival. Having been outcasts, half-orcs know how to fend for themselves. • Languages: See Player’s Handbook page 19 for details. • Favored Class: Barbarian These supercede the standard half-orc racial traits found in the Player’s Handbook.
pres_man 07-24-07, 09:47 PM	Familiarity with double axe does not make sense from a flavour POV. Despite its name, even orcs themselves rarely use said weapon. Automatic proficiency with greataxe or something would be more apt, IMO. If they could treat it as a martial weapon they might use it more often. ;)
RobbyPants 07-25-07, 02:41 PM	Bad idea, either choose one or the other, I'd say +2 Str, -2 Int, because the Charisma penalty hurts Intimidate which doesn't make any sense. If you want better Half-Orcs then eliminate any penalty and give them a bonus feat. They can now compete. If they could treat it as a martial weapon they might use it more often. ;) That's exactly what I do. I agree that giving a choice to the player makes the race much more powerful. Here's what I changed about half-orcs in my game: Stat adjustments are now: +2 Str, -2 Int They gain a +2 racial bonus on Intimidate They have weapon familiarity (may treat as martial weapons) with orcish double axes and the orcish shotput* Other than that, they keep everything listed in the PHB. * I also reduced the crit range on the shotput, chaning it from 19-20/x3 to 20/x3
hiryuu 07-25-07, 03:39 PM	We use +2 Str, -2 Int, Endurance, +2 on saves vs. disease, +2 Survival and Intimidate, Darkvision 60 feet, Orc Blood, Favored Class: Barbarian. Makes them good survivors.
The_Hedgewizard 07-26-07, 10:16 PM	This is mine (rather similar to others here): HALF-ORC Brutish: An half-orc may opt to use his Strength modifier instead of his Charisma modifier when making Intimidate checks. Additionally, he or she gains a +2 racial bonus on this skill when dealing any non-monstrous humanoid. Survivor: +2 racial bonus on all Survival checks to resist severe weather or similar inclement conditions. Orc Blood: +2 racial bonus to on saving throws against natural poisions. In addition, half-orcs are considered both Human and Orc for all effects related to race. Ability Adjustments: +2 Str, -2 Int, -2 Cha. Size: Medium. Base Land Speed: 30 feet. Sight: Darkvision. Automatic Language(s): Common and Orc. Bonus Languages: Abyssal, Draconic, Giant, Gnoll, Goblin, and Undercommon. Weapon Familiarities: Orc double axe, orc shotput. Favored Class: Barbarian. +2 Str, -2 Int is just simply too strong. Also, the Intimidate bonus should be situational based on race. A troll is not going to be intimidated by an half-orc any more than normal (probably less actually, but they sure don't need any penalties.) I also gave them Undercommon as a bonus language since many Orcs live underground.
hiryuu 07-26-07, 10:46 PM	I'll bite. How is +2 Str, -2 Int too strong? It's a massive skill point hit, and it really means something as opposed to -2 Charisma. If you have a problem with the Intimidate bonus, ask yourself why half-elves get bonuses to Gather Information and Diplomacy if they're half-breeds not welcome in either of their parent societies, and if it is situational, you should get modifiers to every social skill based on race. After all, why don't elves get a penalty to Intimidate? ...my question, though, would involved both why you're pumping the troll for information and how you got the troll into a situation where it could be Intimidated, seeing as how it takes one minute. Also, the DC is effectively increased because the troll is large sized (oh, look, the situational modifier already exists as a built-in feature of the skill itself!).
Krusk 07-26-07, 11:15 PM	...my question, though, would involved both why you're pumping the troll for information and how you got the troll into a situation where it could be Intimidated, seeing as how it takes one minute. Maybe that troll is the bouncer at a local club that you would like entry to. So you are pumping him for info as to who comes and goes from this club. Maybe you are investigating some murders and you think the culprits are regulars. You got it into a situation in which you have a min by simply not walking away from him befor that time.
hiryuu 07-27-07, 12:05 AM	Maybe that troll is the bouncer at a local club that you would like entry to. So you are pumping him for info as to who comes and goes from this club. Maybe you are investigating some murders and you think the culprits are regulars. You got it into a situation in which you have a min by simply not walking away from him befor that time. There we go. That's a good one. Now, bear in mind that a troll is large, and therefore a medium-sized creature has a -4 penalty on Intimidate checks against it. This means that your average half-orc has a -2 penalty on his Intimidate rolls against that troll and the troll is rolling 1d20+6 to resist. Not likely at all. So, no, the troll isn't likely to be intimidated at all anyway.
The_Hedgewizard 07-27-07, 08:32 AM	I'll bite. How is +2 Str, -2 Int too strong? It's a massive skill point hit, and it really means something as opposed to -2 Charisma. If you have a problem with the Intimidate bonus, ask yourself why half-elves get bonuses to Gather Information and Diplomacy if they're half-breeds not welcome in either of their parent societies, and if it is situational, you should get modifiers to every social skill based on race. After all, why don't elves get a penalty to Intimidate? ...my question, though, would involved both why you're pumping the troll for information and how you got the troll into a situation where it could be Intimidated, seeing as how it takes one minute. Also, the DC is effectively increased because the troll is large sized (oh, look, the situational modifier already exists as a built-in feature of the skill itself!). Whew, aren't we snarky. This is why I love posting on internet boards. There isn't any reason I had in mind you'd be pumping the troll for information. It was just an example. You know examples right? And I actually *would* rule that half-elves only get their Diplomacy bonuses when dealing with non-monstrous races as well. I don't know where you got that bit about half-elves not being welcomed by either parent race either, they certainly are, hence the bonus. They are always just slightly outsiders, which however makes one more suited to diplomacy between two groups. There's also no reason elves should get a penalty to Intimidate. An half-orc isn't getting a bonus to Intimidate, in my reasoning, because he's big, it's because he represents something that your average person in DnD land finds horrifying, humans breeding with orcs (especially the tacit implication of what likely happened to a human woman for him to even exist). Even if that particular half-orc did not come to be from that kind of situation, most people will still think that, and hence find his very presence disturbing. Another member of a monster race however, obviously would not care about that. Anyway, +2 Str, -2 Int is too strong because there is almost no reason to not to pick a half-orc for your a warrior class unless 1) you're going for the expertise feats or 2) want to PrC into something like Dwarven Defender. -2 Int is not a huge skill point hit. It's *a* skill point. +2 Str is +1 to every hit and damage roll you'll make. If you give them -2 Cha as well, then you're gimping them from arcane casting in general, and reducing *two* skill modifiers for their skills. Skills are only used occasionally, and on an half-orc barbarian, probably rather rarely. He's going be to rolling for attacks, grapples, Strength checks, etc. *quite a bit*. Hence, +2 Str, -2 Int is not really well balanced. The designers themselves clearly thought so. EDIT: Just wanted to add, +2 Str also allows you to much easier and much quicker qualify for various Str based feats. You're right, -2 Cha isn't really that big of a penalty, at least on it's own. But -2 Int, -2 Wis would hurt too much. Add the -2 Cha to the -2 Int and +2 Str is acceptable. Wood Elves are the same way.
hiryuu 07-27-07, 12:42 PM	Whew, aren't we snarky. This is why I love posting on internet boards. There isn't any reason I had in mind you'd be pumping the troll for information. It was just an example. You know examples right? And I actually *would* rule that half-elves only get their Diplomacy bonuses when dealing with non-monstrous races as well. I don't know where you got that bit about half-elves not being welcomed by either parent race either, they certainly are, hence the bonus. They are always just slightly outsiders, which however makes one more suited to diplomacy between two groups. There's also no reason elves should get a penalty to Intimidate. An half-orc isn't getting a bonus to Intimidate, in my reasoning, because he's big, it's because he represents something that your average person in DnD land finds horrifying, humans breeding with orcs (especially the tacit implication of what likely happened to a human woman for him to even exist). Even if that particular half-orc did not come to be from that kind of situation, most people will still think that, and hence find his very presence disturbing. Another member of a monster race however, obviously would not care about that. I'm not being snarky, I honestly wanted to know. If I were being snarky, I'd have attempted to infuse more wit into my post or pulled a variety of moronic internet debate related cards, which I didn't want to do because these are nice forums and I like coming here. Please excuse me for replying when my ideas were attacked and questioning why they were so treated. I will endeavor to sit still and shut up when my thoughts are called into question from now on so that you can post in peace. Our group has voted on those stats specifically and playtested that half orc extensively for the last five months and there's not been any balance problem with it in the slightest. It's on par with elves, halflings, gnomes, dwarves, and humans. Half-elves are still not being played.....it's next on the group vote block, because that's how my group does things, someone brings up a rule, and we all sit down and work out what the end ruling will be. Everyone's happy, and everyone, at some point, is going to be a GM, so there's no need to be a jerk. Yes, I do know examples. Please back up and extend examples for clarity. Note how I had to extend your example into the rules and thus, made it not work as a valid example. The troll is still not Intimidated. A better example would have been a fellow half-orc. They get +2 to Intimidate each other. Also, half-orcs can work this way. (http://www.nazro.net/stuff/halforcs.jpg) Anyway, +2 Str, -2 Int is too strong because there is almost no reason to not to pick a half-orc for your a warrior class unless 1) you're going for the expertise feats or 2) want to PrC into something like Dwarven Defender. -2 Int is not a huge skill point hit. It's *a* skill point. +2 Str is +1 to every hit and damage roll you'll make. If you give them -2 Cha as well, then you're gimping them from arcane casting in general, and reducing *two* skill modifiers for their skills. Skills are only used occasionally, and on an half-orc barbarian, probably rather rarely. He's going be to rolling for attacks, grapples, Strength checks, etc. *quite a bit*. Hence, +2 Str, -2 Int is not really well balanced. The designers themselves clearly thought so. Never played point buy, have you? Never played a game where Jump, Climb, Swim, Balance, Use Rope, and Knowledge skills were all used within the same five minute span, either, I'm guessing. If that skill point isn't that important, the GM is doing something wrong. I've handed out a whole level's worth of skill points as an adventure reward and there still aren't enough to go around on the rogue in my game with the 16 Intelligence. EDIT: Just wanted to add, +2 Str also allows you to much easier and much quicker qualify for various Str based feats. You're right, -2 Cha isn't really that big of a penalty, at least on it's own. But -2 Int, -2 Wis would hurt too much. Add the -2 Cha to the -2 Int and +2 Str is acceptable. Wood Elves are the same way. Wood Elves? They get +2 Str, +2 Dex, -2 Con, -2 Int. That's it. In addition to all elf traits. That's way too much. Heck, Why ever pick a half-orc, then? Heck, as long as we're on the topic of WotC "agreeing," they've pointed out that a bonus to a mental stat is an LA, but there's Gray elves, with -2 Str, +2 Dex, -2 Con, and +2 Int. You know what? I don't even know why I'm defending this. You clearly have your opinion, and I have mine, and what works in my game probably won't work in yours, 'cause you're too hung up on fears of abuse. Oh noes, someone might play a half orc fighter or barbarian or something, look out. My solution is to just not game with people who I'm afraid will abuse my good GM nature. Someone asked for alternative half-orc stats, I posted what my group uses without calling into question anyone else's stats, and I don't feel like the derail should go any farther, [ALERT: SNARK FOLLOWS] so, feel free to imagine your ego or whatever all welling up with pride or something.
The_Hedgewizard 07-27-07, 01:53 PM	Never played point buy, have you? Never played a game where Jump, Climb, Swim, Balance, Use Rope, and Knowledge skills were all used within the same five minute span, either, I'm guessing. If that skill point isn't that important, the GM is doing something wrong. I've handed out a whole level's worth of skill points as an adventure reward and there still aren't enough to go around on the rogue in my game with the 16 Intelligence. Actually, this brings up a good point. Climb, Jump, and Swim all use Str as their modifiers. I think it's safe to say these are likely the skills an half-orc is going to be using the most. An half-orc is unlikely to be deciphering many scripts, searching for many hidden doors, or appraising many items. In other words, the -2 Int penalty, while losing you a skill point a level, isn't going to affect very many skill checks you're likely to make as an half-orc, while your Str bonus is probably going to be used on most of your skill checks. I don't agree with the fact that the system values physical stats in many cases so much over mental ones, but the reality is, it most often does. If +2 Str, -2 Int works for your game that's fine, but I seriously doubt the core half-orc, or any official core race, will ever get a +2 Str, -2 Int ability adjustment without some other penalties. I can't even think of a race that has a bonus to Str without hefty penalties to their other stats at LA +0 or even +1. I'm definitely not saying they are infallible, but I am sure the designers have a reason for this, hence, personally, I would leave the half-orc ability adjustments the way they are. EDIT: Also, the way you answered the first post, your tone sounded sarcastic. Maybe I'm just so used to seeing that on boards I assumed it. No need to make silly cracks about my ego or what have you. Anyway, I'm simply expressing my hesitance to give Str bonus with only a single mental stat penalty, primarily because I'm actually annoyed by the fact I don't think mental stats are worth as much as physical ones. I think I even saw an article on here from Wizards themselves saying this (can't find it though), when talking about the half-orc.
pres_man 07-29-07, 04:54 PM	A +2 Str, -2 Int is no more powerful than a +2 Con, -2 Cha. The -2 Cha for dwarves is a joke, like that balances out the +2 Con. If we accept that as "balanced" then there really is no way to argue that +2 Str/-2 Int isn't balanced either, Int effects starting languages, number of skills per level, access to various "combat tree" feats, and some specific skill checks, charisma effects some specific skill checks. Also the idea that the -2 Cha basically gimps the half-orc from any arcane classes is something that goes against one of the core ideas of 3.5 edition, the ability to have flexibility with characters. Sure with +2 Str/-2 Int they still might not be great wizards, but they can now play effective sorcerers, which to me has a pretty good feel.
Thurbane 07-29-07, 10:48 PM	IMC, 1/2 Orcs get the following: +2 STR, -2 INT Darkvision Orc Blood Racial skill modifers: +2 to Intimidate and Survival; -2 to Bluff, Diplomacy and Gather Information
The_Hedgewizard 07-29-07, 10:51 PM	A +2 Str, -2 Int is no more powerful than a +2 Con, -2 Cha. The -2 Cha for dwarves is a joke, like that balances out the +2 Con. If we accept that as "balanced" then there really is no way to argue that +2 Str/-2 Int isn't balanced either, Int effects starting languages, number of skills per level, access to various "combat tree" feats, and some specific skill checks, charisma effects some specific skill checks. I don't think dwarves are balanced actually. They should have stayed with a Dex penatly like in 2nd ed.
Draz74 07-30-07, 04:47 PM	Skills are only used occasionally, Wow, you must be playing a very unusual campaign. And one where no poor sucker wants to play the rogue of the party. :weep: He's going be to rolling for attacks, grapples, Strength checks, etc. *quite a bit*. Hence, +2 Str, -2 Int is not really well balanced. Um. Yes, of course the dumb barbarian type is going to be rolling Strength-based checks much more often than Intelligence-based checks, and they will be more important to him. I agree. So yes, a Strength boost and an Intelligence penalty will, overall, make this character more powerful, in spite of the useful skill points (and Expertise access, which is quite important for many characters) lost. I don't think anyone's arguing that. But racial traits are supposed to make a character more powerful! I mean, we're not trying to balance the Half-Orc against a hypothetical race that has absolutely no good racial traits at all. We're trying to balance the Half-Orc against the Human, who gets a bonus feat and a bonus skill point at every level and is quite flexible for multiclassing. Measured against a standard like that, most of us don't think the advantage represented by "+2 Str, -2 Int" is too powerful. ... all that being said, it fits my mental picture of half-orcs better to have a Charisma penalty instead of an Intelligence penalty. Of course that can easily get too powerful unless you're in a campaign where Charisma is actually important to all characters for some reason, which is what I try to achieve.
The_Hedgewizard 07-30-07, 05:02 PM	But racial traits are supposed to make a character more powerful! I mean, we're not trying to balance the Half-Orc against a hypothetical race that has absolutely no good racial traits at all. We're trying to balance the Half-Orc against the Human, who gets a bonus feat and a bonus skill point at every level and is quite flexible for multiclassing. Measured against a standard like that, most of us don't think the advantage represented by "+2 Str, -2 Int" is too powerful. How are racial traits supposed to make a character more powerful? I don't understand what it is you are saying there. Does +2 Dex, -2 Con make an elf more powerful, or +2 Con, -2 Str for a gnome? I don't really think they are there to make them more powerful at all, just different. Also, I would not really try to balance any race against the human. The human probably should be the most adaptable because humans are supposed to be the most common race in many campaign settings and hence it gives people a nudge to play them. Half-orcs are however, exceedingly rare most of the time. That doesn't mean I think they should suck, I thought my version was pretty good, but I wouldn't balance them against the human in terms of being able to do as many things.You could still play a half-orc arcane caster with -2 Int, -2 Cha, you'll just have a harder time of it, which you *should*. People should have the option to play a character who has difficulties as well, and the idea of struggle is inherent in playing a half-orc I think. Personally, I don't like racial based Charisma penalties, but I don't really understand why orcs have a penalty to Wisdom. Sure, they aren't much for forethought, but they are supposed to have sharp senses. Which is another idea actually...Give half-orcs the scent ability maybe? That's a nice boost and pretty flavorful. EDIT: Just noticed this too. Wow, you must be playing a very unusual campaign. And one where no poor sucker wants to play the rogue of the party. I didn't mean skills aren't important, but in the 4 encounter a day system you are (supposed to be) guaranteed you'll be fighting 4 times a day. That's 4 times a day where you'll be making numerous rolls based off your Str for an half-orc. Any specific skill is only likely to see use a couple, once, or every few days. My point with all this, is I think it's better to make the half-orc better at what he already does, fight and survive (which he should probably better at than a human in most cases) instead of trying to open more avenues to him, which doesn't strike me as befitting an orc in most worlds.
CaoSlayer 07-30-07, 05:38 PM	I use the regular half-orc stats but add a feature based in who raised it: Human education: Regardless of still being less skilled that humans, half-orcs raised in human towns must adapt to the city life like humans and so become as skilled as other humanoids thanks to their human heritage. Half-orcs raised by humans gain 4 extra skill points at 1st level and 1 extra skill point at each additional level. Orc educacion: In orc culture to live is to kill, Half-orcs raise in orc tribes thanks to their human blood and orc bloodlust are able to master any weapon with ease compared with their fellow pure blood orcs friends. Half-orcs raised by orcs gain one Exotic or Martial Weapon Profiency of their choise always that isnt related to another race (No Dwarven battle axe or elf courtblade for fluff sake).
Kadasbrass 07-30-07, 08:11 PM	How are racial traits supposed to make a character more powerful? I don't understand what it is you are saying there. Does +2 Dex, -2 Con make an elf more powerful, or +2 Con, -2 Str for a gnome? I don't really think they are there to make them more powerful at all, just different. Also, I would not really try to balance any race against the human. A bonus lets a player achieve an ability score that would otherwise be unable to achieve with another race. In most cases this means getting an ability score of 20 at first level. The benefits of being able to exceed the normal 18 max outweights the downsides with a penalty to another score. This is because the player is already focusing on the ability that will gain the bonus and in most cases can build his character to not be affected much by the score with the penalty.
hiryuu 07-31-07, 12:56 PM	I didn't mean skills aren't important, but in the 4 encounter a day system you are (supposed to be) guaranteed you'll be fighting 4 times a day. That's 4 times a day where you'll be making numerous rolls based off your Str for an half-orc. Any specific skill is only likely to see use a couple, once, or every few days. My point with all this, is I think it's better to make the half-orc better at what he already does, fight and survive (which he should probably better at than a human in most cases) instead of trying to open more avenues to him, which doesn't strike me as befitting an orc in most worlds. Here we go! I think this is the core of a problem! An encounter doesn't mean a combat. A combat is a combat, and an encounter is an obstacle that requires a set of checks of any sort, ranging from simple Reflex saves, Diplomacy checks, Swim checks, and so on. This can be a combat, but not all encounters are combats. However, all combats are encounters. If you run across a fireball trap, a room with two troglodytes, and a pack of brigands who talked first, so your face got them to wait for the next group of folks, then had a run-in with guards at a city gate, then you've had four encounters. One needed some saves and a disable device roll, maybe a search check or two, one needed combat, and the other two could be handled with proper use of Diplomacy, charm abilities, and/or an Intimidate check or two; they all taxed the party in some way or another, but weapons were only swung in one of those cases.
AMGriffin 08-04-07, 01:24 PM	Half-orcs • +2 Strength, -2 Charisma. Half-orcs are strong, but are socially maladjusted loners. • Medium size: Half-orcs are medium-sized humanoids. • Half-orc base landspeed is 30 feet. • Lesser Darkvision: Half-orcs can see in the dark up to distances of 60 feet. Their eyes aren't perfectly attuned to low-sources of light however, and half-orcs suffer -1 penalties to search, spot, and attack rolls in complete darkness. • +2 racial bonus on intimidate and survival checks. • +2 racial bonus on saves against fear • +1 racial bonus on saves against disease. • -1 penalty on diplomacy, gather information, and bluff checks when dealing with humans, orcs, dwarves, and elves. • Mixed Blood: For all effects related to race, half-orcs are considered both human and orc. • Automatic languages: Common, Orc. Bonus languages: Any. • Favored Class: Any.