Post/Author/DateTime	Post
Stryfe_Raven 08-20-04, 04:17 PM	Has anyone created a alternate item creation system, where the items do not cost XP to create. If not how would you balance such a system without over hauling the current system.
Mind of Darkness 08-20-04, 08:29 PM	I've been thinking of using a system where item creation ages the creator (inspired by 2nd Edition wish ) rather than costing exp. Basically, for every 100 exp. you would normally spend, you instead gain one “aging point”. For every (level*5) aging points accumulated, the creator would age one age category past their current age (resulting in irreversible death if the character is already venerable). Aging points cannot be removed, but at every new level, aging caused by aging points is recalculated according to the character’s new level. (the character effectively regains their youth as they gain levels).
DwarvinJedi 08-21-04, 12:53 PM	Well, my friend was thinking of doing away with XP all together, you just level when he says, so I asked him about it, and I showed him the Artificer in ECSB, and he stole the idea of a craft reserve, just for every caster it is 50 times their level, and it adds to the remaining total when gaining a level, (I dislike the second part,) and I forgot about XP costs for casting certain spells.
Stryfe_Raven 08-21-04, 01:38 PM	Originally posted by DwarvinJedi Well, my friend was thinking of doing away with XP all together, you just level when he says, so I asked him about it, and I showed him the Artificer in ECSB, and he stole the idea of a craft reserve, just for every caster it is 50 times their level, and it adds to the remaining total when gaining a level, (I dislike the second part,) and I forgot about XP costs for casting certain spells. What about non-casters, do they also get a craft reserve to construct masterwork item and aid spellcasters in item creation (as they can now as they can give XP to a caster to aid in item creation up to half I believe).
DwarvinJedi 08-21-04, 02:44 PM	Originally posted by Stryfe_Raven What about non-casters, do they also get a craft reserve to construct masterwork item and aid spellcasters in item creation (as they can now as they can give XP to a caster to aid in item creation up to half I believe). I really don't know, I'll ask him
TheDarkLord 08-23-04, 03:56 AM	I didn't do away with the XP cost's in creating Item's and such. I did do away with the Item creation feats as they were known and added a new skill. Craft (Magical Dweomer). I basically gave Certain DC's to start with, and for every 10,000 GP it was over the base Price (Each item had a base price) you add another + to the DC. The Item creation feat's were then changed to give Bonus' on creating certain Items, like a +4 bonus to craft staff or something. I also did away with Material Resources. I figured, if you had a sword, you had a scroll, then why do you have to pay XX amount of gold for Material Resources. The Item's XP cost was 1/25th of the Market price, so I kept the Pricetag's on the Item's, I just took out the "Material Resources" for most things. Now spell's that have a costly component you still had to use in the Item's creation, but for the most part, you only paid the XP.
jkovacik 08-23-04, 05:40 PM	I removed XP for a gestalt campaign, and also made all permanent magic items creatable by specialists (ie. non-adventurers) only. It works wonders - wizards w/ extra feats will pick up craft wand and maybe staff (only at 5th level so far), but no player gets extra permanent items/robs the other players because he took the arms/armor or wonderous items feats. The gestalt wizard/sorcerer never really runs out of firepower, and the cleric works with him to create cure wands at cost (since they'll be used on him at some point, too), but everything else they've got to contract out to be created or hope to find in the dungeons. :)
PaladinKD 08-31-04, 11:37 AM	I didn't do away with the XP cost's in creating Item's and such. I did do away with the Item creation feats as they were known and added a new skill. Craft (Magical Dweomer). I basically gave Certain DC's to start with, and for every 10,000 GP it was over the base Price (Each item had a base price) you add another + to the DC. The Item creation feat's were then changed to give Bonus' on creating certain Items, like a +4 bonus to craft staff or something. I very much like this DL. It's simple, takes into account the feats... and is SIMPLE! I have always disliked the clunky, (Items cost in silver divided by the square root of the DC x the time spent picking your nose) rules. (EDIT: Realized my mistake. Clunky craft rules are only for the mundane stuff now.) On that note, did you give any thought to how much time it takes? It seems to me that is all that's stil needed. EDIT: To make it still more like the original, yet still simple, you could keep the feats dealing with specific types (wands, potions, scrolls, etc) and make the Craft Dweomer apply to only the ones you know.
tarkin 08-31-04, 11:57 AM	Aging instead of XP is a bad idea (They tried it in 2.0 for a lot of stuff, and the entire reason they used XP in 3.0 was beacuse of what a horrible, abuse prone idea aging was). I like this idea: Make it use skill points. 1 point = scrolls of any 5 spells 1 point = any 4 potions 1 point = any single staff, rod, or wand. 2 points = any ring 1 point = any single magic wonderous item (or any two of a subtypes (i.e. 2 types of figurines of wonderous powers, 2 types of ioun stones). 1 point teaches you any set of priced weapon enchantmetns 1 point teache you how to make +1-+5 armor 1 point per price cost for any armor ability 1 point per price cost for any weapon ability
PaladinKD 08-31-04, 12:15 PM	Aging instead of XP is a bad idea (They tried it in 2.0 for a lot of stuff, and the entire reason they used XP in 3.0 was beacuse of what a horrible, abuse prone idea aging was). I like this idea: Make it use skill points. 1 point = scrolls of any 5 spells 1 point = any 4 potions 1 point = any single staff, rod, or wand. 2 points = any ring 1 point = any single magic wonderous item (or any two of a subtypes (i.e. 2 types of figurines of wonderous powers, 2 types of ioun stones). 1 point teaches you any set of priced weapon enchantmetns 1 point teache you how to make +1-+5 armor 1 point per price cost for any armor ability 1 point per price cost for any weapon ability Do you mean that the skill point let's you make just one item, or just one type of item?
PaladinKD 08-31-04, 01:56 PM	I forgot that the old clunky craft system isn't used for Magic Item Creation. Now its only used for standard craft checks. :rolleyes: This is heavily based on DarkLord's rule, and probably looks very similar. This is what I see... ________________________________________ ______ Alternate Item Creation Rule A new skill entitled Craft Dweomer is added to all the spellcasting classes. Creating a magic item requires a single roll of the Craft Dweomer skill. Failure indicates lost time. Failure by more than 5 indicates lost time and materials. Use the standard time, material cost and xp cost from the Item creation feats. Taking the feats instead grants a +4 to the appropriate skill check. Item Type/Craft Dweomer DC Scroll/DC10 (+1 per spell level) Potion/DC12 Wonderous Item, Arms and Armor, Wand, Rod, Ring, Staff/DC12 (+cost modifier) Cost Modifier to Craft DC: +1DC per 10,000 gold. For every 5 that you succeed by on the Craft check, you may do one of the following (each only once)... • Half the material cost. • Half the construction time. • Half the XP expenditure. ________________________________________ ______ Based on this system, the most expensive items in the DMG will have a Craft DC of 33, putting them in the reach of of only the highest level casters who have spent at least a moderate portion of their skill points in the Craft Dweomer skill. A 18th level caster with a +4 ability mod, 15 ranks in Craft Dweomer and the appropriate Item Creation Feat would have a 50% chance to create such an item. Maxed ranks would give a 80% likelihood. A fifth level caster with +2 Ability mod, 3 ranks in the skill and the Craft Arms and Armor feat would have a 85% chance of making a +1 Longsword. They would likely be able to cut the time or cost as well. Add Skill Focus and obviously things get that much easier. This puts making magic items where I think it should be in the difficulty to produce. Only those people who invest a great deal of effort into it will likely be creating the items. This system may not work well for a magic rich world, but for a campaign like mine, where magic items are rare and unique, it fits quite nicely. I haven't playtested this. Contrary to my earlier post, this is a bit more difficult than the standard system, but still involves only a single roll. What are the opinions out there? DarkLord, how close did I come to getting the DCs?
Tzepish 08-31-04, 02:55 PM	I did away with XP in my campaigns. Any XP costs for item creation or spell casting have been replaced with GP costs (using the 5:1 conversion).
TheDarkLord 08-31-04, 07:40 PM	Alternate Item Creation Rule A new skill entitled Craft Dweomer is added to all the spellcasting classes. Creating a magic item requires a single roll of the Craft Dweomer skill. Failure indicates lost time. Failure by more than 5 indicates lost time and materials. Use the standard time, material cost and xp cost from the Item creation feats. Taking the feats instead grants a +4 to the appropriate skill check. Item Type/Craft Dweomer DC Scroll/DC10 (+1 per spell level) Potion/DC12 Wonderous Item, Arms and Armor, Wand, Rod, Ring, Staff/DC12 (+cost modifier) Cost Modifier to Craft DC: +1DC per 10,000 gold. For every 5 that you succeed by on the Craft check, you may do one of the following (each only once)... • Half the material cost. • Half the construction time. • Half the XP expenditure. Somewhat similar. Scribe Scroll DC 10 Brew Potion DC 10 Craft Magical Arms and Armor DC 10 +1 per enhancement (+5 Enhancement +5 enchantments = Dc 20, also any non non enhancment's add +1 to the DC for every 5000 gold pieces of the increase in price.) Craft Wand DC 12 Craft Rod DC 15 Craft Staff DC 25 Craft Wondrous Item DC 12 Minor, DC 15 Medium, DC 20 Major Forge Ring DC 22 Craft Golem DC 30 That's off the top of my head, i'd have to get to my computer at home, but I also have rules for Crafting Epic items and crafting both Psionic and epic psionic item's. Also, if you have the material's needed to build the item, then you don't have to expend any gold piece's to imbue the item's with magic, just XP. I did cut down on all production time's by over 1/2 i believe. You still had to either know the spell's or have someone working with you to cast the spell's to put the spell in an item or whatever. I'd have to get home and edit this post to put the rest of it up though.
The Master Weaver Is Warped 09-02-04, 07:40 PM	A series of craft checks are made, one for each day of work. If you fail any check by 10 or more the item is ruined. Time and materials are wasted. You take the XP loss. If you fail by less than ten, then a day of work is added on to the total time required, and additional material costs of +1% of total cost is added. You must make another craft check roll to see if it is still possible for this item to be a master work item. If this check fails you may choose to abandon the project at no XP penalty. Materials costs are still incurred. If you succeed the craft roll by not more than ten then the work is on schedual, and budget. You will not take any XP loss for this item. The item will be master work quality. If you succeed the craft roll by more than 10 then one day is removed from the total required time. Materials have been used effeciently, and the total cost is reduced by 1%. You gain XP. This item is considered exceptional and will command a higher price (20%) if it is sold.
PaladinKD 09-03-04, 09:25 AM	A series of craft checks are made, one for each day of work... Except fo the gaining of XP, I like this system. Am I missing something or is the only chance to lose XP under a failed attempt? That is the other thing I would change I guess. Ruined: Fail by more than 10 = Lose time, materials and XP In Jeopardy: Fail by 10 or less = Add time, material cost, check for Master work potential. On Schedule: Succeed by 10 or less = On Time and budget, pay XP. Exceptional: Succeed by more than 10 = Exceptional Item +20% value, pay XP. Does one exceptional roll during item creation automatically make the item exceptional? What if you roll In Jeopardy and Exceptional during the creation process? Just some 'what if's' for you to consider.
The Master Weaver Is Warped 09-03-04, 03:20 PM	Except fo the gaining of XP, I like this system. The reason I would allow for gaining XP for item creation is that in real life, making something successfully increases your ability to make something successfully the next time. Sounds like gaining experience to me. You build muscle memory, strength (8 hours at a floor loom, or throwing pots will wear you out.) skill, materials and design knowlege etc. I think a player should be rewarded to doing something well.Am I missing something or is the only chance to lose XP under a failed attempt? That is the other thing I would change I guess.Yes. You try, you fail, you pay the price. You do an average job, you get average results.Does one exceptional roll during item creation automatically make the item exceptional? What if you roll In Jeopardy and Exceptional during the creation process? Just some 'what if's' for you to consider.Well, one day everything goes right. Next day everything goes wrong. Can you pull it out of the crapper? Great save, but it cost you extra time and money to do it right. Next day you were inspired and you found a way to make your error work to your advantage. Defintely learned something new here, that you can use next time. The finished piece is better than you imagined. You've invited the Baron to the unveiling. I've cut warps off the loom in frustration. They were a waste of my time. I've woven fabrics that have won awards. There is a vision in my head, but until it is done, I don't know how it will come out. As I've worked, I have become better at matching reality to vision. I've gained experience. It is a rush. My item creation system for D&D is a reflection of my real world experience, and is an attempt to put the pleasure and rewards of making things into game play. I've also found the XP penalty magic users pay for making things weakens them unfairly with respect to the rest of the party, not mention having to burn feats to do it. I've also ruled that master work items can not be fabricated with magic. It is the essence of the maker that is instilled in a master work item that allows it to be enchanted. All this is more like philosphy than game rules, but it works for me.
PaladinKD 09-03-04, 04:01 PM	The reason I would allow for gaining XP for item creation is that in real life, making something successfully increases your ability to make something successfully the next time. Sounds like gaining experience to me. You build muscle memory, strength (8 hours at a floor loom, or throwing pots will wear you out.) skill, materials and design knowlege etc. I think a player should be rewarded to doing something well Very sound reasoning. In game mechanics you would have to stipulate that said experience can only be used to increase your Craft Skill. The system views XP more like 'power' than 'skill'. Since all it's used for is an increase in level, it's effects on your Crafting ability are minute (+1 to your skill.) In addition to that +1 to your Craft Skill, you also get better at combat, saves, special abilities, etc, etc. So the Mage who sits tucked away, mastering his craft skill, somehow learns all sorts of stuff he has never had the chance to practice. Not to mention the fact that he can crank out hundreds of items. I admit the system is lacking to handle this situation, but any new rule you create should work with the system. Game balance is an issue. I've also found the XP penalty magic users pay for making things weakens them unfairly with respect to the rest of the party, not mention having to burn feats to do it. If the magic user is selling all his created items, then your right, he is getting weaker compared to the other characters (though richer from the sales :) ). But if he's using the items himself, or letting the party use them, than he's gaining power from their use. Feats and xp penalties limits the cranking out of magical items. If you wanted to do away with the xp penalty, you could simply calculate as if you were taking it away, but not actually do it. Then when the crafter would reach his limit by standard rules, you can tell him "No more creation for you until next level."
Grail Quest 09-03-04, 07:16 PM	Has anyone created a alternate item creation system, where the items do not cost XP to create. If not how would you balance such a system without over hauling the current system. Making magic items cost XP is a way to limit the availability of magic items in a campaign, and is, therefore, essentially a campaign-specific ruleset. Similarly, the time required also limits availability, and is therefore also campaign-specific. If your campaign is high-magic or otherwise magic-prevalent, then these rules would cripple that setting. If you want items to not cost XP, simply replace that with something else such as more time, special ingredients, the necessity of a special location (e.g., a ley line nexus), special talent, or special spells (such as in Rolemaster). Or, simply drop XP costs and replace it with nothing. What you would then need to do is give rationalizations as to why your game world doesn't have magic items all over the place, why amateur magic-users aren't pumping out simple household-useful items (or scrolls of magic missile) by the dozens, etc... Or, if the world does have magic items in vast quantities, why the gameworld doesn't fall apart. For example, in the real world, we don't all have guns. It's not because they aren't easy to make or distribute, but because there is an economic and legal system in place to limit access. Why isn't there rampant violence when everyone is or can be armed with a deadly weapon (how many seriously big knives are in your kitchen??)? Because people just aren't all anarchist psychos. So, even if over-the-counter magic missiles are available, maybe they're the common solution to exterminating rats.
A Flying Buddha 09-03-04, 09:05 PM	Why not just use Spellcraft? In general terms it would seem appropriate. Unstanding the "Craft" of magic would make you better at making items. Plus it saves from losing skill points on it when wiz's already have relatively low skill points... eidt** any spellcasting class, not just wiz's have relatively limited skill points,