Alternate Level Adjustment Rules [Archive] - Wizards Community

Alternate Level Adjustment Rules [Archive] - Wizards Community

Post/Author/DateTime Post
Necroblivion
06-29-07, 12:14 AM Ok, my group has been hashing over level adjustments and have found them too harsh. I'm sure most of you feel the same way. It is a great roleplaying thing to have a template, even at a low level. However, there are some balance issues.

At a low level, your character is more powerful than his peers and is likely to be less challenged. This is why the rules state that you get a Level Adjustment of +X to signify your increased power.

The problem is that as you level, those powers hold less value in comparison to new skills, base attack bonus, caster level, saves, etc. -not to mention hit points.

Bear with me, I'm going somewhere...

In the Unearthed Arcana, they have a decent method for "buying off" your level adjustments. Essentially after you reach a certain amount of levels (3 x your LA) you can pay XP to reduce your current LA by one. This too is ok, but still doesn't let the character progress. But it did spark an idea.

I broke down the level adjustments from LA +1 to +6, and figured out how much xp it costs to reduce them to their minimums.

LA +1: 3000 xp to reduce to +0
LA +2: 16,000 xp to reduce to +0
LA +3: 45,000 xp to reduce to +0
LA +4: 96,000 xp to reduce to +0
LA +5: 175,000 xp to reduce to +0
LA +6: 280,000 xp to reduce to +0

etc.

Now, take that experience total and apply it to the leveling chart. A character with a level adjustment of +1 needs to earn enough xp to become 3rd level (3000 xp) before his LA is removed. So, in the old system, he would look like this:

1st level: EL 2 (character level one)
2nd level: EL 2 (got nothing for leveling)
3rd level: EL 3 (character level two)

Now that he's 3rd level he is able to buy off his 3000 XP debt to reduce his LA down to +0, leaving him still at level two, but now able to progress normally.

What I propose:
Use the experience debts of each LA and create a pool of debt XP that must be paid off. The character must pay half the experience earned towards that pool, but may level normally otherwise. This slows their leveling down by half until their debt is paid off, at which time they are free of the LA.

Example:
A LA+2 Drow starts out play as an EL3. He is more powerful than an EL1 (level one) character, but doesn't have the real power of a true EL3 (3rd level) character. But now, he can still level and gain valuable hit points and saves, etc. without having to wait two whole levels before going up to second level as a character.

In a nutshell, just make the character earn 50% (levels) and 50% (debt) xp until his debt is paid, at this time his xp is 100% towards his character level.

I think it will work great, both fun and balance are appeased. At this point I wouldn't even call them level adjustments, I'd call it XP debt. If you wanted to play something with a ludicrous LA now, you could -but you would level far slower than the rest of the party for the rest of the campaign.

Enjoy! :b:
Crashy75
06-29-07, 03:41 PM I like this necro. Short and simple.
Cheza
06-30-07, 10:28 AM Remember a Rakshasa. He has LA +7, but gains 7 levels as a sorcerer, gains HD, skills, feats and many other "specials".
Zyrusticae
06-30-07, 10:59 AM That's exactly what I do. Good thinking! Of course, this can result in a pretty big gap at higher levels (22,500 XP vs 45,000 XP at LA +3), but that's what the character gets for starting out with such an advantage.

...Of course, this doesn't solve the problem of totally inaccurate LAs, but that's something that needs to be looked at on a case-by-case basis.

Good stuff.

Edit: I'm a bit confused as to where you get your numbers from. For example, if we're talking a LA +3 character, they're considered ECL 4, but with 0 XP. They have to reach level 7 to get rid of their LA, right? Level 7 requires 21,000 XP. Twice that is 42,000 XP, which is the total one has to reach to completely remove the LA, right?
Same thing with the other ones... (LA +2, 20k XP? LA +4, 72k XP?)

Edit x2: Oh, I see. By the traditional LA buy-off rules you were going by LAx3. Actually, if that's the case, then I'm still a little confused. LA+1x3 = ECL 3, or 3k XP, as you wrote. But LA+3x3 = 9, which is 36,000, not 45,000... LA+2x3 = 6, or 15,000 (I'll just assume that one was a typo). Hmm?
Necroblivion
06-30-07, 07:47 PM I'm a bit confused as to where you get your numbers from. For example, if we're talking a LA +3 character, they're considered ECL 4, but with 0 XP. They have to reach level 7 to get rid of their LA, right? Level 7 requires 21,000 XP. Twice that is 42,000 XP, which is the total one has to reach to completely remove the LA, right?
Same thing with the other ones... (LA +2, 20k XP? LA +4, 72k XP?)

Just so you know where I'm pulling the XP debts from... it all comes from the Unearthed Arcana and their LA buyoff optional rules. At 3x your current level adjustment you are allowed to pay 1000 XP x (your current EL-1). This is where I'm getting my XP totals. If you have a LA greater than one, then you will have to perform this calculation for each of your level adjustment reductions.

My numbers reflect that cost for each LA to be brought all the way down to +0.
Necroblivion
06-30-07, 07:53 PM Remember a Rakshasa. He has LA +7, but gains 7 levels as a sorcerer, gains HD, skills, feats and many other "specials".

Just for the record, there is a difference between EL (effective level) and LA (Level Adjustment). A Rakshasa has a level adjustment of +7, meaning they are worth about seven levels of class ability to balance out their power.

They also have racial hit dice. Seven also. So their effective level (if you play one right out of the MM) is 14. Seven racial hit dice (levels) and a level adjustment of +7.

They are seriously broken though. Seven levels of sorceror ability is worth a +7 EL alone, plus add in their tons of special abilities, and wow...

Their skills, feats, etc. come from their racial levels, so don't figure that into their LA. Does that help?
Tomkin
06-30-07, 09:07 PM Seven levels of sorceror ability is worth a +7 EL alone, plus add in their tons of special abilities, and wow...

I beg to disagree, would you rather play a Sorcerer-8 or a Sorcerer-1 who casts spells as a Sorcerer-8, but whose saves/hitpoints etc. are all 1st-level? :D

Actually, I think rakshasa are about right for their ECL. Their HP will be weak for their ECL, as will their saves (base +5 each, versus +4 poor and +9 good), BAB is equal to a sorcerer's...

*Checks books*

Wait a minute. +9 natural armor? SR 27 +class levels?! DR FIFTEEN!? Never mind then, they are too good. Forget I said anything.
runestar
06-30-07, 10:16 PM Why an XP penalty does not work in general (http://www.seankreynolds.com/rpgfiles/rants/LAvsXPpenalty.html) :)
NoldorForce
07-01-07, 11:21 AM Runestar, you're misinterpreting SKR and the OP.

SKR was talking about the problems with using only an XP-penalty system. The OP was instead suggesting the use of the normal system. This would also use an XP-penalty system, but only to couple the LA to the LA buyoff system.

It might still be wonky in that it might invite unintended consequences (as with normal XP-penalty), but it's not straight XP-penalty.

For the record, I think that XP buyoff has the right idea in that LA generally has a benefit that scales linearly with more of it; hit dice and the things associated with them (class levels, feats, etc.) have benefits that scale at least quadratically. However, it makes things much easier for the low LA people to overcome than the high LA people, when the high LA people are often hurt more by the differences in power scaling.

Post/Author/DateTime	Post
Necroblivion 06-29-07, 12:14 AM	Ok, my group has been hashing over level adjustments and have found them too harsh. I'm sure most of you feel the same way. It is a great roleplaying thing to have a template, even at a low level. However, there are some balance issues. At a low level, your character is more powerful than his peers and is likely to be less challenged. This is why the rules state that you get a Level Adjustment of +X to signify your increased power. The problem is that as you level, those powers hold less value in comparison to new skills, base attack bonus, caster level, saves, etc. -not to mention hit points. Bear with me, I'm going somewhere... In the Unearthed Arcana, they have a decent method for "buying off" your level adjustments. Essentially after you reach a certain amount of levels (3 x your LA) you can pay XP to reduce your current LA by one. This too is ok, but still doesn't let the character progress. But it did spark an idea. I broke down the level adjustments from LA +1 to +6, and figured out how much xp it costs to reduce them to their minimums. LA +1: 3000 xp to reduce to +0 LA +2: 16,000 xp to reduce to +0 LA +3: 45,000 xp to reduce to +0 LA +4: 96,000 xp to reduce to +0 LA +5: 175,000 xp to reduce to +0 LA +6: 280,000 xp to reduce to +0 etc. Now, take that experience total and apply it to the leveling chart. A character with a level adjustment of +1 needs to earn enough xp to become 3rd level (3000 xp) before his LA is removed. So, in the old system, he would look like this: 1st level: EL 2 (character level one) 2nd level: EL 2 (got nothing for leveling) 3rd level: EL 3 (character level two) Now that he's 3rd level he is able to buy off his 3000 XP debt to reduce his LA down to +0, leaving him still at level two, but now able to progress normally. What I propose: Use the experience debts of each LA and create a pool of debt XP that must be paid off. The character must pay half the experience earned towards that pool, but may level normally otherwise. This slows their leveling down by half until their debt is paid off, at which time they are free of the LA. Example: A LA+2 Drow starts out play as an EL3. He is more powerful than an EL1 (level one) character, but doesn't have the real power of a true EL3 (3rd level) character. But now, he can still level and gain valuable hit points and saves, etc. without having to wait two whole levels before going up to second level as a character. In a nutshell, just make the character earn 50% (levels) and 50% (debt) xp until his debt is paid, at this time his xp is 100% towards his character level. I think it will work great, both fun and balance are appeased. At this point I wouldn't even call them level adjustments, I'd call it XP debt. If you wanted to play something with a ludicrous LA now, you could -but you would level far slower than the rest of the party for the rest of the campaign. Enjoy! :b:
Crashy75 06-29-07, 03:41 PM	I like this necro. Short and simple.
Cheza 06-30-07, 10:28 AM	Remember a Rakshasa. He has LA +7, but gains 7 levels as a sorcerer, gains HD, skills, feats and many other "specials".
Zyrusticae 06-30-07, 10:59 AM	That's exactly what I do. Good thinking! Of course, this can result in a pretty big gap at higher levels (22,500 XP vs 45,000 XP at LA +3), but that's what the character gets for starting out with such an advantage. ...Of course, this doesn't solve the problem of totally inaccurate LAs, but that's something that needs to be looked at on a case-by-case basis. Good stuff. Edit: I'm a bit confused as to where you get your numbers from. For example, if we're talking a LA +3 character, they're considered ECL 4, but with 0 XP. They have to reach level 7 to get rid of their LA, right? Level 7 requires 21,000 XP. Twice that is 42,000 XP, which is the total one has to reach to completely remove the LA, right? Same thing with the other ones... (LA +2, 20k XP? LA +4, 72k XP?) Edit x2: Oh, I see. By the traditional LA buy-off rules you were going by LAx3. Actually, if that's the case, then I'm still a little confused. LA+1x3 = ECL 3, or 3k XP, as you wrote. But LA+3x3 = 9, which is 36,000, not 45,000... LA+2x3 = 6, or 15,000 (I'll just assume that one was a typo). Hmm?
Necroblivion 06-30-07, 07:47 PM	I'm a bit confused as to where you get your numbers from. For example, if we're talking a LA +3 character, they're considered ECL 4, but with 0 XP. They have to reach level 7 to get rid of their LA, right? Level 7 requires 21,000 XP. Twice that is 42,000 XP, which is the total one has to reach to completely remove the LA, right? Same thing with the other ones... (LA +2, 20k XP? LA +4, 72k XP?) Just so you know where I'm pulling the XP debts from... it all comes from the Unearthed Arcana and their LA buyoff optional rules. At 3x your current level adjustment you are allowed to pay 1000 XP x (your current EL-1). This is where I'm getting my XP totals. If you have a LA greater than one, then you will have to perform this calculation for each of your level adjustment reductions. My numbers reflect that cost for each LA to be brought all the way down to +0.
Necroblivion 06-30-07, 07:53 PM	Remember a Rakshasa. He has LA +7, but gains 7 levels as a sorcerer, gains HD, skills, feats and many other "specials". Just for the record, there is a difference between EL (effective level) and LA (Level Adjustment). A Rakshasa has a level adjustment of +7, meaning they are worth about seven levels of class ability to balance out their power. They also have racial hit dice. Seven also. So their effective level (if you play one right out of the MM) is 14. Seven racial hit dice (levels) and a level adjustment of +7. They are seriously broken though. Seven levels of sorceror ability is worth a +7 EL alone, plus add in their tons of special abilities, and wow... Their skills, feats, etc. come from their racial levels, so don't figure that into their LA. Does that help?
Tomkin 06-30-07, 09:07 PM	Seven levels of sorceror ability is worth a +7 EL alone, plus add in their tons of special abilities, and wow... I beg to disagree, would you rather play a Sorcerer-8 or a Sorcerer-1 who casts spells as a Sorcerer-8, but whose saves/hitpoints etc. are all 1st-level? :D Actually, I think rakshasa are about right for their ECL. Their HP will be weak for their ECL, as will their saves (base +5 each, versus +4 poor and +9 good), BAB is equal to a sorcerer's... Checks books Wait a minute. +9 natural armor? SR 27 +class levels?! DR FIFTEEN!? Never mind then, they are too good. Forget I said anything.
runestar 06-30-07, 10:16 PM	Why an XP penalty does not work in general (http://www.seankreynolds.com/rpgfiles/rants/LAvsXPpenalty.html) :)
NoldorForce 07-01-07, 11:21 AM	Runestar, you're misinterpreting SKR and the OP. SKR was talking about the problems with using only an XP-penalty system. The OP was instead suggesting the use of the normal system. This would also use an XP-penalty system, but only to couple the LA to the LA buyoff system. It might still be wonky in that it might invite unintended consequences (as with normal XP-penalty), but it's not straight XP-penalty. For the record, I think that XP buyoff has the right idea in that LA generally has a benefit that scales linearly with more of it; hit dice and the things associated with them (class levels, feats, etc.) have benefits that scale at least quadratically. However, it makes things much easier for the low LA people to overcome than the high LA people, when the high LA people are often hurt more by the differences in power scaling.