Post/Author/DateTime	Post
ksbsnowowl 09-19-04, 11:28 PM	Just so you know off the bat, I run 3.0 games. I’m in the midst of creating a campaign world that will be a rare magic setting. Rare-magic is different from low-magic in that a low magic setting has low-power magic items and low availability of magic items [ie- you cannot ‘buy’ magic, and commissioning a piece is next to impossible], while a rare-magic setting has the same power level/wealth as standard D&D [ie- a 15th level fighter probably has a +4 sword], but low availability of magic. So, the PC’s will have magic items commensurate with their level, but most of it will be exactly what they reap from the bodies of their fallen foes and find in treasure hoards. The Fighter may have wanted a +3 great sword, but what was found last session was a +3 war axe; he’ll have to be content with the war axe (at least for the time being.) To keep this rare magic feel, even amongst the PC’s, all Item Creation feats will have their prerequisite caster level doubled. Thus, a feat such as Brew Potion, which normally has a prereq of “Caster level 3rd”, will have a prereq of “Caster level 6th.” Note, it is only the prerequisite caster level that is increased; once a character has the feat, it functions exactly as listed in the core books. Thus, magic items do not have increased caster levels, and subsequently higher costs. Once the feat is obtained, it works normally. To read more about this magic system, take a look at this thread (http://boards1.wizards.com/showthread.php?t=275173). Edit: (Something wonky is going on with the board's url links, so here is the written-out link: http://boards1.wizards.com/showthread.php?t=275173) As I’ve thought through this campaign setting more, and as I’ve inquired about the number of people I will have playing in my game, I’ve leaned toward making it generally a ‘Gestalt’ campaign setting. I do not own [I]Unearthed Arcana however, but judging from some of the threads on this board, it sounds like I could write better/more clear rules than those found in UA (and mine will be free!) So, here are my Gestalt rules. Hopefully they are understandable and clearly define how characters are built within them. A Gestalt character is similar to making two different characters with two different class-progression choices, and then meshing the two characters into one. For most all purposes, treat the two sides of a gestalt character as two completely separate characters. At each level, certain aspects of the character’s advancement must be compared. The Base Attack Bonus and the individual Base Save Bonuses of the two sides of a gestalt character must be compared, and the better overall value of the two sides applies to the overall character. Other aspects are dealt with on a level-to-level basis. Of the two classes taken at any given level, the character uses the better of the two Hit Dice and the better number of skill points per level. When spending skill points on gaining a level, the class skills of both classes taken that level are treated as class skills. Gestalt characters do not gain more feats than a traditional character due to their gestalt natures. A gestalt character gains one feat at 1st character level, a second feat at 3rd character level, and one additional feat every three character levels thereafter. Thus, barring any racial bonus feats or feats granted by class levels, a 20th level gestalt character will have seven feats, just like a normal 20th level character. When multiclassing a gestalt character, each side of the character is tracked and determined independently of the other in most all respects.* Each side’s classes and subsequent Base Attack Bonus and Base Save Bonuses are determined according to the normal multiclassing rules found in the Player’s Handbook, independent of the other side of the gestalt character. The favored class rules are also applied individually to each side of a gestalt character. Each individual character class may only be taken by one side of a Gestalt character. Once a class is taken on one side of a gestalt character, it does not exist as far as the other side is concerned. For example, if a gestalt character advances one side of his character in Ranger, and later multiclasses that side of his character into Paladin, he cannot begin re-advancing Ranger on the second side of his character while continuing to advance Paladin on the first side of the character. Despite being able to advance two classes at once, a gestalt character cannot advance more than one Prestige Class at the same time. Gestalt characters may still enter multiple Prestige Classes, but whenever one side of a gestalt character advances a Prestige Class, the other side must advance in a core base class. * All feats, no matter how or from what side of the gestalt character they are gained, are the character’s feats as a whole. Prerequisites for any feats or Prestige Classes may be met by either or both sides of the gestalt character. A Prestige class may be taken on either side of a gestalt character, even if it was the other side of the character that met the prerequisites, and even if it enhances the spellcasting of a class that was taken on the other side of the character. Hit dice and skill points are determined level-by-level, as described above. The characteristics of gestalt may allow a character to qualify for certain Prestige Classes earlier than a normal D&D character would be able. In such situations, a character is still unable to enter the Prestige Class until the level at which a standard D&D character would be able to do so. Certain Prestige Classes that essentially combine two base classes are not needed in a gestalt campaign. Indeed some classes, such as the Arcane Trickster, would be unbalanced if combined with a full-progression base class, such as rogue, using the gestalt rules. Such classes are not allowed as one side of a gestalt character. If a player so wishes, however, he may choose to take the class, but it will ‘cost’ both sides of his gestalt progression. The prestige classes that fall into this category are generally those classes that progress class abilities of two separate base classes. For example, the Arcane Trickster mentioned above progresses Sneak Attack (from rogue) and arcane casting. Prestige classes that require abilities from multiple classes in order to qualify for the class, but only allow progression of one of the base class’s abilities at each level (such as Hathran or Geomancer) are generally still acceptable in a gestalt game (but must still follow the restriction on early entrance listed in the previous paragraph). Check with the DM before taking a Prestige Class, just to make sure that it does not fall into the ineligible category. Most class abilities cannot progress faster than would be capable with a normal D&D character. For example, the Uncanny Dodge ability is gained by both the barbarian and rogue classes. A Rogue-Barbarian gestalt character cannot gain its Uncanny Dodge abilities faster than its fastest progression (in this case, Barbarian) simply because both classes grant that ability. Similarly, you cannot progress an individual spell casting class’s spell casting progression faster than normal by progressing in the base class and a spell casting prestige class at the same time. The exception to this restricted progression of class features is Sneak Attack. The character cannot progress two Sneak Attack abilities at the same time. But, just as it is possible for a normal D&D character to gain ‘extra’ Sneak Attack dice through multiclassing into prestige classes that grant an advancement to sneak attack on the first level of each class, so too can a gestalt character gain extra sneak attack dice by multiclassing into prestige classes. Gestalt characters with more than one spellcasting class keep track of the individual classes’ spellcasting progressions and spells per day separately. Now for an example character: Kirian the Half-Elf takes his first level in Barbarian and Rogue. On side ‘A’ of his character he takes Barbarian, and on side ‘B’ he takes rogue. Comparing the two sides, Kirian gets +1 BAB, +2 Fort, +2 Ref, +0 Will, Rage 1/day, fast movement, +1d6 Sneak Attack, a d12 hit die, skill points as a first level rogue, and the combined class skill lists of the barbarian and rogue. Kirian travels on to many adventures, and progresses until he is a 6th level character. Side A of his character is a Barbarian 2/Fighter 4, and Side B of his character is a Rogue 3/Sorcerer 3. From Side A he gets +6 BAB, +7 Fort, Rage 1/day, fast movement, Uncanny Dodge (Dex bonus to AC), three bonus fighter feats, and 2d12 + 4d10 hit dice. From Side B he gets +3 Ref, +3 Will, +2d6 Sneak Attack, Evasion, the ability to summon a familiar (with abilities appropriate for a 3rd level sorcerer), the casting ability of a 3rd level sorcerer, and 6*(8+Int mod) + 3*(2+Int mod) skill points. The 3rd rogue level also grants Uncanny Dodge, but such class abilities are not allowed to progress faster than the fastest normal progression. Upon reaching 7th level, Kirian enters the Arcane Archer prestige class. He can apply the class to either side of his character, but since he wants to continue improving his sorcerer spellcasting, he must choose to place Arcane Archer on side A (since he can’t start gaining levels in sorcerer on side A). This is the best choice anyways, because it preserves Kirian’s full BAB on side A. Had Kirian instead taken barbarian followed by four levels of sorcerer on side A, and started his fighter class after two levels of rogue on side B, neither side would have full BAB, and Kirian would not be as capable a warrior. It is for this reason that players are advised to plan a rough idea of the character’s progression in advance, so as to preserve and enhance each sides’ individual BAB and BSB progressions. Level Side A / Side B 1 Barbarian 1 / Rogue 1 2 Barbarian 2 / Rogue 2 3 Fighter 1 / Rogue 3 4 Fighter 2 / Sorcerer 1 5 Fighter 3 / Sorcerer 2 6 Fighter 4 / Sorcerer 3 7 Arc Archer 1 / Sorcerer 4 I know these rules aren’t perfect, but I think they’re better, and less broken, than what I’ve gathered of the rules from within UA. Can anyone critique my Gestalt rules? Or at least point out any areas that are unclear or open to abuse?
gbnogkfs 09-20-04, 12:49 AM	I'm the guy who started the UA ubergestalt thread :D A question: can a feature of a PrC that augment another class' feature (e.g. the +1 spell level) be applied to a class on the other side of the gestalt? sort of: Ftr/Wiz and later Loremaster/Rog (I know this is not BAB-optimizing, just asking)
ksbsnowowl 09-20-04, 01:03 AM	Yes, a character can do that. I did deal with that in the write-up, but maybe I didn't emphasize it enough:Prerequisites for any feats or Prestige Classes may be met by either or both sides of the gestalt character. A Prestige class may be taken on either side of a gestalt character, even if it was the other side of the character that met the prerequisites. I'll probably go back tomorrow and add in a line about spellcasting, just to make it more clear.
gbnogkfs 09-21-04, 12:59 AM	Yes, a character can do that. I did deal with that in the write-up, but maybe I didn't emphasize it enough: I'll probably go back tomorrow and add in a line about spellcasting, just to make it more clear. It was not exactly the same :cool: :D
Kessalin Talira 09-22-04, 02:54 AM	I'd say for not owning the book, you've pretty much hashed out the KISS interpretation of the rules in UA. I think a lot of people would do well to come over and take a look. EDIT: Now that I've compared what I do, with your system, it's virtually identical, I just don't have it composed as well. The one I posted in the other thread goes on a level by level basis rather than the lump sum. The only thing I didn't do the same as yours was the saves... my system keeps them closer together, I think, while keeping the poor saves higher than normal and the good saves slightly lower. I think I'll change over to your system, it seems simpler. Good job!
ksbsnowowl 09-23-04, 01:18 PM	Thank you Kessalin. To hear from someone that's actually seen (and used?) the gestalt rules as written in UA that my rules are better is a great relief and 'pick-me-up.' I'd been worried that I was breaking or neglecting some nesessary aspect of gestalt that would unbalance my rules (though that may still be the case with my proposed magic system). Thanks again.
Kessalin Talira 09-23-04, 04:59 PM	Seen, yes... used, not yet, though within the next level or two of the campaign I'm playing in, there will be an opportunity to have Gestalt characters in the mid-teen levels. The DM will be borrowing my copy of UA for the specifics, so it's going to be a compromise between us how the rules work. (I DM one campaign, he DM's another, and we each play in the other's, so we compare notes on how things should work pretty regularly). I'll let you know how it works out with level 15-16 gestalt. EDIT: One of the only problems I see with this method (and I think it's not so much a problem as an assumption based on something stated in UA), is that it's all too easy to get huge save numbers.
ksbsnowowl 09-24-04, 12:04 AM	One of the only problems I see with this method (and I think it's not so much a problem as an assumption based on something stated in UA), is that it's all too easy to get huge save numbers.Well, you could do that with normal multiclassing anyways (albeit on a more limited basis, and usually restricted to one or possibly two saves, rather than all three.) But, given that I run in 3.0, with the 3.0 Archmage (and 3.0 Spell Power), too-high saves shouldn't be too much of a problem. :D (That, and it's looking like I'll probably only run two PC's in the campaign, so they'll need the extra help.)
Golden Valhalla 11-29-05, 12:11 PM	I was thinking of having my players make up gestalt characters after this next adventure ends, and this makes so much more sense than what's in the book. I'm using this write-up!
TwistedShadow 11-29-05, 03:21 PM	As long as we are on the topic of gestalt character option I have a related question. I have been toying around with offering Gestalt option to characters even in a group where most characters are playing with the normal class rules of a single class and multi-classing. Now in order to maintain a balance between normal characters and the gestalt characters we determined that characters using the gestalt option gain a level advance between +1 & +3 (we are currently play testing it at +2) the main Idea is to make sure that it is not overly handicapped or over powered with all of the extra class abilities. But I am always looking for the opinion of someone other then my group to gauge this sort of house rule on gestalt as a normal option for players I also have to agree with Kessalin Talira you have a really good understanding and simplified explaination of something you have not actually read :clap: Major Props :tiphat:
ksbsnowowl 11-29-05, 04:03 PM	Thanks guys, Honestly, I'd almost forgotten this thread existed, though I do still have the write-up on my computer. Thank you again for the compliments. I've seen similar attempts to have parties composed of gestalt and non-gestalt charcters. Aside from the gestalt rules stating that shouldn't be done (I do now own UA, though I still like my write-up better), I've seen lots of people on this site mention trying to do as you've mentioned, applying a Level Adjustment of +2 or +3. I'm not sure how it would work. I'd think with a +2 LA I'd still pick gestalt, but +3 might begin gimping yourself too much.
TwistedShadow 11-29-05, 04:49 PM	Yeah, thats one of the reasons that we are play testing it, cause its important to see how things actually turn out. What I am looking for is for it to have the same kind of attraction that a playable race with a level advance does, where the sacrifice of the LA makes people consider the option very carefully but is not so High that like you said it handicaps the character too much. I have been running blind comparisions on the end resulting of a gestalt character and a normal character under the +2 LA on paper it seems pretty balanced. But again we will see how it turns out our group also has a rule that if you abuse something like that there will be a price and that option will be taken away from future characters. So for at least the group that i am in its more a tool for getting the right feel for your character concept rather then a mini-max or munchkin tool I have also found a bunch on built in handicaps that gestalt creates for characters using the +2LA Skill points, Hitpoints, base attack (that one caught me off guard), Base Saves (with the level advance are pretty much par to single class characters though they generally have more good saves) But we shall see how it turns out