Post/Author/DateTime	Post
Marrethiel 01-01-07, 10:03 PM	Hi all, I heard of an alternate Turning method that did dice damage rather than the standard 3.5 version. Does anyone know where this comes from or can they detail here how the system works? To the best of my understanding this it works as follows: 1/ Cleric rolls 2d6 and adds CHA bonus (I don't have the books here, there might be something else added to this) to deturmine the number of hit dice, as per normal 3.5 rules. 2/ Cleric rolls on the chart to deturming his effective caster level which is converted to d6 of damage. I'm not sure if there were any limits for repeated attempts to Turn though it seems like there should be. Thanks.
strenoth 01-02-07, 04:14 AM	actually, that initial roll does not happen at all The alternative rule can be found in complete divine to summarize: 30' radius positive energy burst does 1d6/cleric level damage, Charisma-based will save for half. My personal interpretation of how other rules interact with this rule: Anything that would normally increase your turning check adds to the will save DC (which is CHA based, so it lines up well). Example: the +2 to turning checks aspect of the Glory Domain Anything that would increase cleric/turning level increases damage correspondingly. (Improved Turning) Anything that would increase Turning Damage would apply directly to the damage done by the alternate turning (the +1d6 turning damage from the Glory Domain, Empower Turning) If it adds damage to a normal turning, it adds the same damage to the alternative turning (Exalted Turning adds 3d6 damage, the feat from Sandstorm adds 3d6 Fire damage to the untyped damage of normal turning) Greater Turning: Double the damage derived from clerical level (including things like improved Turning), then add all other sources of damage HOUSE RULE: (the previous were interpretations not clearly covered by the alternative rule presented in complete divine) Turning Resistance is at a 5/1 ration, instead of 1/1. ie, a vampire has Turning Resistance of +4, so Turning Damage Resistance of 20. (according to Complete Divine, they'd have a resistance of 4...) Interpretation of the original 1/1 rule which applies to my house rule: Elemental/typed damage added to turning damage is not effected by turning damage resistance, so a vampire who takes 16 points of turning damage and 12 points of fire damage from the sandstorm feat (yes, still to lazy to look it up), would have that reduced to 0 points of turning damage, and 12 points of fire damage (no fire resistance by default)
Marrethiel 01-02-07, 06:00 PM	...The alternative rule can be found in complete divine... ...HOUSE RULE: (the previous were interpretations not clearly covered by the alternative rule presented in complete divine) Turning Resistance is at a 5/1 ration, instead of 1/1. ie, a vampire has Turning Resistance of +4, so Turning Damage Resistance of 20. (according to Complete Divine, they'd have a resistance of 4...) Excellent stuff, thank you very much. How would spells like Unhallow or abilities like Bolster Undead work? Damage reduction too?
strenoth 01-02-07, 07:13 PM	mmm, yes. Anything that gives turn resistance would work on the same samage reduction scale. Oh, the epic feat that gives the auto-turning for undead at level -20, would be at damage -20d6, so undead with in 30' of the cleric with that feat are automatically taking damage every round. This makes maxed-out undead turning clerics very dangerous to undead hordes.
Shinryouga 01-04-07, 02:30 AM	Just to follow up, an extensive mathematical simulation by an engineer friend of mine proved that the Turn Resistance x5, will negates is almost a perfect mathematical equivalent to the standard turning rules. Additionally, run rebuking undead as healing, where healing equal to undead's normal total HP causes a charm effect. No need for a save; to receive the healing the undead had to have failed the intial save, so it balances.
strenoth 01-05-07, 02:53 AM	will isn't negates, it's will for half. :)
Shinryouga 01-06-07, 04:05 PM	If you want the ability to be devastatingly strong. We houseruled the mechanic to save negates to bring it mathematically in line with the origional turning system's success/failure rates.
strenoth 01-07-07, 02:52 AM	well, the thing is, if it's mathmatically the same, it's just as pointless at greater levels. It's an easy to hit will save for undead, given that they have a high will progression and tend to have lots of HD. The point of it being the damage, save for half, was to make it useful when people are above 10th level. in the default system, by about then, a cleric turnign specialist woudl often be simply Unable to to trun a skeleton even close to their CR. such a skeleton woudl also be likely to make every saving through agains thtis ability. At least save for half lets the cleric be useful with hsi turning abilities.
Shinryouga 01-07-07, 05:32 PM	Its the DC formula that makes the difference. Normal DCs are 10 + half HD (or spell level) + ability mod. The alt cleric turning is 10 + full cleric level + cha mod. The DC become terrifyingly competitive the higher level the cleric. A 10 charisma cleric still sets a DC 30 turn at 20th level. With a phylacter of undead turning, maxed out charisma, and associated feats, a cleric can easily set DC 44 turn blasts. Perhaps success/failure ratio was not the best way to phrase it. Mathematically, with the change as earlier mentioned to turn resistance, and the save negates rather than save for half, keeps a cleric capable of usually turning any "standard" undead comparable to his CR. Odd undead, with either abnormal HP (bloodhulks) or high turn resistance (shadows, etc) become more difficult. At high levels, even nightwalkers, who have no turn resist, but a desecration aura, are still vunerable, even though they have extremely high will saves. Also consider that the alt turning rules have no damage cap. It becomes an AOE, so a 5th level cleric can do 5d6 to every undead within a 30 foot radius. In a packed crypt, he could easily hit 12 or even 24 skeletons. A standard turning cleric could not hope to turn that many with one attempt. Save for negation helps with this discrepancy. Ultimately, these were just the way we brought the rules in line with what we felt was "balanced". We did the math on it, and it came out where we wanted it. If you want different/stronger/weaker turning in your game, its your game. Just throwing this out for everyone's benefit, except my own, because I've already got it.
strenoth 01-07-07, 06:30 PM	Ok, thank you.. hmm, I'll consider that for the game I'm running.
Marrethiel 01-08-07, 09:32 PM	I've been looking at it and I don't like the straight damage reduction. I am going to trial using the normal mechanic for DC's which is 10 +half cleric level + CHA bonus. Turn resistance will add to the Will save of the undead. Could you get your maths friend to run some simulations on this? Relative strengths and weakness. And, thanks again for all the input so far :)
Shinryouga 01-09-07, 01:21 AM	Would that be save for half, or save for none? I can tell you that save for half means clerics will be stronger against undead regardless, because they can still always do damage.
legophreak 01-09-07, 04:42 PM	I think i might give that a try. The whole does damage in a radius to undead fits into the theme of my game much more then undead running or cowering in fear of someone's holy symbol. More importantly the resistance x 5 rule (Will negates) sounds bonus to me, keeping with the 10 + cleric level + Cha mod setting the DC. That is the one thing about d20 that aggrevates me to no end. The whole the higher you go, the more DC's become meaningless. Ah well, no system is perfect, but i'll be damned if we don't try to make it such...
Marrethiel 01-09-07, 09:29 PM	Would that be save for half, or save for none? I can tell you that save for half means clerics will be stronger against undead regardless, because they can still always do damage. vs Half I don't like the normal turning rules as once something is turned it can too easily be defeated. This rule keeps more monsters in the fight for longer. Also, my players understand that this rule is under trial. :)