Alternate Turning System [Archive] - Wizards Community

Alternate Turning System [Archive] - Wizards Community

Post/Author/DateTime Post
Paul Hopebringer
02-23-05, 02:15 PM I'm sure I'm not the only one who feels this way, most people I've heard arn't exactly pleased with the way it works it the book. I'm sure it is balanced, and all that, but it is...so abstract and clunky... I think that there is a better way of handling this.

Why not just have it deal (your turning level) d 12
So, a 1st level human skeleton barbarian vs. a 20th level cleric. The cleric would deal 20d12 damage against the thing, and it would die horribly.

In a different situation, the 20th level cleric would find himself against 20 first level human skeleton fighters, and would deal each one 1d12 damage. All of them are damaged, and you've put the fear in them (represented by the DM's choice of tactics rather than any sort of mechanic) And have probably destroyed a few.

Turn resistance and all that would still apply. Maybe undead would get a will save for half or something.

With this system tweaked to perfection, I would then move on to have a separate set of spell points (lets call them turn points for now...), and make it so you can deal your choice of damage to the thingy. The feats that use up turn attempts would...scale up to be your turn level...or something...Naturally this would need tweaking to perfection as well...

Maybe you would add your turning level to the end of your damage so "TL" d "HD" + "TL"

I... can't... think of turn feats of hand!!! :banghead: I know that they are out there, but I can't think of an example. Anyway, if they scale (There might be something that scales with your TL???) Then you could always just use the lesser version to save turning.
Cymraegmorgan
02-23-05, 06:10 PM I'm sure I'm not the only one who feels this way, most people I've heard arn't exactly pleased with the way it works it the book. I'm sure it is balanced, and all that, but it is...so abstract and clunky... I think that there is a better way of handling this.

Why not just have it deal (your turning level) d (whatever die type the thing uses)

I agree that Turning rules are....clunky, and do not properly represent the Power of Good's ability to destroy undead filth.

How about:

Turn Undead
3 + CHA modifier times/day
Range: 60 feet.
Damage: 1d8/turning level + 1/turning level +CHA modifier.

Turn Resistance:
Subtract the creature's HD from the damage dice.

Greater Turn Resistance:
As above, but also removes the 1/tl damage.

Extra Turning:
Add one more Turning per day. This Feat can be taken multiple times.

Improved Turning:
Your effective Turning level is increased by one. This Feat can be taken multiple times.

And as for Rebuke/Command, I feel it should be traded in for other Turning options.
A LE Cleric might choose to Turn Fey or Turn Outsider(Good).
A TN Cleric might coose to Turn Elemental(Fire).
Paul Hopebringer
02-24-05, 02:30 PM * :D NOW UPDATED :D *

Turn Undead
Turn points: Turn points are gained at a rate of 3 x (turning level)+ CHA modifier
Range: 60 ft.
Damage: 1d6 +1 / Turn Point (not exceeding the characters level) +CHA modifier +one for every extra point spent beyond the characters level.
Will save: 10 plus 1 per point up to maximum level.

Turn Resistance:
Use Turn Resistance as "Positive Energy Resistance". (TR +5 vs TL:15 (spending fifteen Turn Points) = (15d6+10+CHA)-5

Greater Turn Resistance:
As above, but also removes the +1/tl damage. (TR +5 vs TL:15 (spending fifteen Turn Points) = (15d6+CHA)-5

Extra Turning:
Add your turning level agian to your turn points (scales with turning level). This Feat can be taken multiple times.
(Turn points gained at a rate of 4,5,6, etc. x (turning level)+ CHA modifier)

Improved Turning:
Your effective Turning level for determining the damage cap is increased by one. This Feat can be taken multiple times.

(TR +5 vs TL:15 (Effectivly 15+1, and spending sixteen Turn Points) = (16d6+16+CHA)
Thelon Fairblade
02-24-05, 03:29 PM barbarian skeleton = d12
fighter skeleton = D12!!!
Ghoul = 2d12
Wraith = 4d12

Seeing the pattern here? All undead have d12.

Anyway... I would rather see the cleric do d6 per level.
Oneiros
02-24-05, 03:48 PM I went over this alot on SeanKReynolds boards, and these are the rules for my campaign I distilled from that thread. Note that I do give a saving throw, and lessen the damage, because play-testing showed that the cleric dominates the combat too much in undead encounters otherwise, making other characters pretty much say "Oh, vampires. Sit back and let the cleric handle it." With the lower damage method, the cleric can contribute to the encounter without being overwhelming.

Turn Susceptibility (zombies and skeletons get a Will Save penalty) helps address the problem of a dumb, giant zombie having a better save than a wickedly smart vampire mage.

I'm still trying to decide if the ability to Command Undead should be a free option after the target has been reduced to zero HP, or if it should require a separate Turn attempt.
-------------------------------------------------
Turning Undead
When using a Turn Undead Attempt, a cleric energy deals damage to undead creatures equal to:

[1/2 Cleric level x d8] + Cleric Level

A 1st level cleric still does a minimum of 1d8+1. The area affected is a 25 ft cone burst + 5ft/2 levels. Undead in this area must make a Will Save vs. 10 + 1/2 Cleric Level + Cha bonus. A successful Will Save results in half damage. Paladins treat their level as three lower for purposes of damage, range and DC calculations.

Using Negative Energy for Turning
Characters who channel negative energy may not use it to harm undead directly. Instead, Turning which uses negative energy can be used in any of the following ways:
Rebuking: Damage dealt to undead by Turning is considered subdual, and is an exception to undead's immunity to non-lethal damage. Once subdual damage exceeds each target's total hit points, the target is considered to be cowering. After 10 rounds, the undead begin recovering from subdual, gaining a number of hit points back equal to their Hit Dice each round, and are no longer cowering.
Commanding: When attempting to Command undead, the area of effect is a burst instead of a cone, centered on the cleric. Any undead in the area of effect must make a Will save or fall under the cleric's mental command. The undead may add their current hit points to the Will Save, so commanding is usually reserved until after the targets are Rebuked to the point of cowering. The effect is similar to the Control Undead spell, except any number of undead can be affected whose total hit dice do not exceed the cleric's level x 2. The effect lasts a number of minutes equal to the cleric's CHA modifier (minimum 1).
Healing: Negative Energy may heal undead rather than rebuke them, but the number of dice and range remain the same.

Enhanced Turning
By using more than one daily Turn Attempt as part of the same action, a cleric may add any of the following enhancements, at a cost of one Turn Attempt per effect. More than one enhancement may be used at a time, but effects do not stack with themselves.
Overwhelming Light: +2 Sacred/Profane bonus to the Save DC
Fearful Light: A failed Will Save also leaves targets Shaken for 10 rounds
Sacred/Profane Light: Any undead approaching the cleric treat him as if he were under the effects of a Sanctuary spell for one round
Positive Energy Only
Burning Light: On a failed REF save against the original Turn DC, the targets have also caught on fire
Negative Energy Only
Bolstering Light: For Will saves against Turning damage, the affected Undead receive a bonus equal to the cleric's WIS bonus. This bonus lasts for 10 rounds
Commanding Light: When making a Rebuke attempt, the cleric may also attempt to Command any undead in that same round. Resolve the rebuking damage first.

Other Changes
The changes to the Turning Undead rules do impact some other rules designed for the official system. Here are the modifications to those rules to work with the system presented here:

Turn Resistance
Creatures with Turn resistance add this value to their Will save. A +2 Turn Resistance also gives Positive Energy Resistance 5, while +4 gives Positive Energy Resistance 10.

Turning Other Creatures
Some domains grant the ability to turn other creatures besides undead. Those abilities follow the same rules as Turning Undead.

Turn Susceptibility
Mindless undead, such as skeletons and zombies, are usually more vulnerable to Turning. Zombies typically have a -4 to their Will Save against Turning, and Skeletons a -2

Feats
Extra Turning: grants +3 turning attempts per day
Improved Turning: Cleric Level treated as +2 for determining range, damage and Save DC

Domains
Sun Domain: The granted power of the Sun domain is changed to Empowered Turning - Once per day, Turn Undead damage is x 1.5

Magic Items
Phylactery of Undead Turning: This item still functions as written, but note how this works with the new Turning rules.
Oneiros
02-24-05, 03:54 PM Seeing the pattern here? All undead have d12.

Anyway... I would rather see the cleric do d6 per level.
For some reason I like the damage variant of Turning to be based on d8, because so many other cleric spells are, especially Cure spells, which are also based on positive energy.

But in my system, I also reduce damage to 1 die per 2 cleric levels (plus a number of points equal to cleric level) This is also modelled after the progression of Cure spells.

Note that the d6/lvl damage Turning variant is one of those listed in Unearthed Arcana.
HailSpork
02-24-05, 06:12 PM The problem with your proposed Turn Resistance rules is that not all the undead are necessarily going to have it. What if you turn 10 skeletons and a... hmm... do wraiths have turn resistance? Well, 10 skeletons and an unknown 11th undead with turn resistance. The turning attempt should still be equally effective against the skeletons. Also, a system of reducing the damage per die is very very clunky.

Perhaps each level of turn resistance grants DR 10 vs turning and a bonus on will save vs turning?

So, let's say there are 5 1hd skeletons (7 hp each) and a 5 hd undead with L1 turn resistance (35 hp). A level 8 cleric turns for 8d8+8+3 and rolls a total of 75. This kills the 5 skeletons and leaves 40 damage left, 10 of which gets soaked up by the turn resistance. There's 30 left; depending on whether you're doing all or nothing or straight damage, this will either hurt or ignore the last undead.

(note: just saw Oneiros's post after I typed this out. Very similar line of thought, so of course I like it ;)
Greyman
02-25-05, 04:55 AM I'm sure I'm not the only one who feels this way, most people I've heard arn't exactly pleased with the way it works it the book. I'm sure it is balanced, and all that, but it is...so abstract and clunky... I think that there is a better way of handling this.

Why not just have it deal (your turning level) d (whatever die type the thing uses) That is basically the Destroy the Undead turning variant, as detailed in the Complete Divine where a turning attempt deals cleric level d6 points of positive energy damage to all undead within 30 feet. Turning resistance becomes positive energy resistance (though with the numerical value increased).

Why d6 for damage? Well, since undead use d12 for hit points, this means that on average a cleric will deal out enough damage to destroy undead with half her cleric level in hit die. By the normal rules, a successful turn check automatically destroys all such undead.
Oneiros
02-25-05, 12:42 PM Turning resistance becomes positive energy resistance (though with the numerical value increased).
Do you have what that increase is? I thought it was a straight value conversion: +2 TR = Positive Energy Resistance 2. That felt a little too wimpy to me, so I upped the typical +2 and +4 values to 5 and 10 respectively.

Why d6 for damage? Well, since undead use d12 for hit points, this means that on average a cleric will deal out enough damage to destroy undead with half her cleric level in hit die. By the normal rules, a successful turn check automatically destroys all such undead.
The caveats there are "average" and "successful". The RAW Turn Check is a lot less predictable, and the cleric may destroy considerably less undead. Also, on a really good roll, the d6/lvl system may destroy more undead than would be possible with the RAW Turn Check. Still a little too powerful for me. Even though my system doesn't do that much less average damage, limiting the effect to a cone keeps the cleric from totally wiping out all the undead around him.

Not picking on you, Greyman, since I know you were only explaining published rules. Just explaining some of the choices I made for my system.
Oneiros
02-25-05, 03:11 PM One other house rule I was thinking about applying to Turning was to space out the number of attempts the Cleric gets per day. As it is, the ability is very "front-loaded" - a high CHA cleric could get 7 attempts a day at level one, and that never improves (except in cases where the Cleric actually improves CHA)

I was thinking of restricting the CHA bonus to 1/2 current level. This way, an 18 CHA cleric wouldn't get his four extra turn attempts (or Turn Points, in Mr. Hopebringer's variant) until 8th level. Also, this gives the higher CHA cleric a little something at even levels, while getting his next higher spell level on the odds.

Hopebringer: I'm still not sure on your Turn Point mechanic. Perhaps a detailed example might help, but it seems to use some mechanics which aren't really found anywhere else in the d20 system, which is part of the problem with the current Turning rules.

Couple of minor things:

CHA adds to damage twice. Once as the straight bonus, and next by burning the extra points it grants. Have it only do one or the other.

The Turn Resistance functioning two different ways (for lesser and greater) is a little confusing. One is a flat amount, and one is based on the cleric's level? Plus, TR normally comes in +2 and +4 varieties.

Also, you have range listed - what about area of effect? Target? Considering a 10th lvl cleric with 18 CHA could pump out 73 points of damage average, over 100 pts max, if he can do that to everything within 60' feet, that's HUGE, even if he had to burn all his points to do it.
donm61873
02-25-05, 05:30 PM I've altered the Turn Undead mechanic myself, but I tried to stay closer to the existing rules, so I wouldn't have to change the feats...

This variant creates four groups of Undead in an encounter:
1. Undead you didn't affect, who are annoyed with you, and less likely to be affected again
2. Undead you did affect, who stayed behind and are annoyed with you
3. Undead you scared away
4. Undead you blew up

Turning Checks
Turning undead is a supernatural ability that a character can perform as a standard action. It does not provoke attacks of opportunity. You must present your holy symbol to turn undead. Turning is considered an attack.
Times per Day: You may attempt to turn undead a number of times per day equal to 3 + your Charisma modifier. You can increase this number by taking the Extra Turning feat.
Range: You turn the closest turnable undead first, and you can't turn undead that are more than 60 feet away or that have total cover relative to you. You don't need line of sight to a target, but you do need line of effect.
Turning Check: The first thing you do is roll a turning check to see if you affect any undead within 60 feet.
To make a turning check: d20 + Cleric Level + Charisma modifier + other modifiers
Turn DC for Undead: 12 + creature's Hit Dice + Turn Resistance
You then check your result against all undead within 60 feet, noting if you equal or beat each creature�s Turn DC. Turning checks do not have automatic misses or hits.
Turning Damage: If your roll is high enough to let you turn at least some of the undead within 60 feet, roll 2d6 + your Cleric level + your Charisma modifier for turning damage. That�s how many total Hit Dice of undead you actually turn, affecting the lowest HD of undead in the area of effect first. You may skip over already turned undead that are still within range, so that you do not waste your turning capacity on them. Undead within the area of effect who were affected by the turning check but were not turned are affected as if shaken; undead within the area of effect who were not affected by the turning check gain a +2 turn resistance for 10 rounds. This bonus can stack from multiple failed attempts to turn, even by multiple clerics.
Effect and Duration of Turning: Turned undead react as if frightened for 10 rounds. If you approach within 10 feet of them, however, they overcome being turned and act normally. (You can stand within 10 feet without breaking the turning effect-you just can't approach them.) You can attack them with ranged attacks (from at least 10 feet away), and others can attack them in any fashion, without breaking the turning effect.
Destroying Undead: If you have twice as many levels (or more) as the undead have Hit Dice, you destroy any that you would normally turn.

Evil Clerics and Undead
Evil clerics channel negative energy to rebuke (awe) or command (control) undead rather than channeling positive energy to turn or destroy them. An evil cleric makes the equivalent of a turning check. Undead that would be turned are rebuked instead, and those that would be destroyed are commanded.
Rebuked: A rebuked undead creature is awed by the cleric, as if shaken or frightened, as the evil cleric desires. The effect lasts 10 rounds.
Commanded: A commanded undead creature is under the mental control of the evil cleric. The cleric must take a standard action to give mental orders to a commanded undead. At any one time, the cleric may command any number of undead whose total Hit Dice do not exceed his level. He may voluntarily relinquish command on any commanded undead creature or creatures in order to command new ones.
Dispelling Turning: An evil cleric may channel negative energy to dispel a good cleric's turning effect. The evil cleric makes a turning check as if attempting to rebuke the undead. If the turning check result is equal to or greater than the turning check result that the good cleric scored when turning the undead, then the undead are no longer turned.
Bolstering Undead: An evil cleric may also bolster undead creatures against turning in advance. He makes a turning check as if attempting to rebuke the undead, but the difference between the turning check and the creature's Turn DC is gained by the creature as additional, temporary turn resistance. The bolstering lasts 10 rounds. An evil undead cleric can bolster himself in this manner. Bolstering also removes all shaken effects from turning on affected undead.

Post/Author/DateTime	Post
Paul Hopebringer 02-23-05, 02:15 PM	I'm sure I'm not the only one who feels this way, most people I've heard arn't exactly pleased with the way it works it the book. I'm sure it is balanced, and all that, but it is...so abstract and clunky... I think that there is a better way of handling this. Why not just have it deal (your turning level) d 12 So, a 1st level human skeleton barbarian vs. a 20th level cleric. The cleric would deal 20d12 damage against the thing, and it would die horribly. In a different situation, the 20th level cleric would find himself against 20 first level human skeleton fighters, and would deal each one 1d12 damage. All of them are damaged, and you've put the fear in them (represented by the DM's choice of tactics rather than any sort of mechanic) And have probably destroyed a few. Turn resistance and all that would still apply. Maybe undead would get a will save for half or something. With this system tweaked to perfection, I would then move on to have a separate set of spell points (lets call them turn points for now...), and make it so you can deal your choice of damage to the thingy. The feats that use up turn attempts would...scale up to be your turn level...or something...Naturally this would need tweaking to perfection as well... Maybe you would add your turning level to the end of your damage so "TL" d "HD" + "TL" I... can't... think of turn feats of hand!!! :banghead: I know that they are out there, but I can't think of an example. Anyway, if they scale (There might be something that scales with your TL???) Then you could always just use the lesser version to save turning.
Cymraegmorgan 02-23-05, 06:10 PM	I'm sure I'm not the only one who feels this way, most people I've heard arn't exactly pleased with the way it works it the book. I'm sure it is balanced, and all that, but it is...so abstract and clunky... I think that there is a better way of handling this. Why not just have it deal (your turning level) d (whatever die type the thing uses) I agree that Turning rules are....clunky, and do not properly represent the Power of Good's ability to destroy undead filth. How about: Turn Undead 3 + CHA modifier times/day Range: 60 feet. Damage: 1d8/turning level + 1/turning level +CHA modifier. Turn Resistance: Subtract the creature's HD from the damage dice. Greater Turn Resistance: As above, but also removes the 1/tl damage. Extra Turning: Add one more Turning per day. This Feat can be taken multiple times. Improved Turning: Your effective Turning level is increased by one. This Feat can be taken multiple times. And as for Rebuke/Command, I feel it should be traded in for other Turning options. A LE Cleric might choose to Turn Fey or Turn Outsider(Good). A TN Cleric might coose to Turn Elemental(Fire).
Paul Hopebringer 02-24-05, 02:30 PM	* :D NOW UPDATED :D * Turn Undead Turn points: Turn points are gained at a rate of 3 x (turning level)+ CHA modifier Range: 60 ft. Damage: 1d6 +1 / Turn Point (not exceeding the characters level) +CHA modifier +one for every extra point spent beyond the characters level. Will save: 10 plus 1 per point up to maximum level. Turn Resistance: Use Turn Resistance as "Positive Energy Resistance". (TR +5 vs TL:15 (spending fifteen Turn Points) = (15d6+10+CHA)-5 Greater Turn Resistance: As above, but also removes the +1/tl damage. (TR +5 vs TL:15 (spending fifteen Turn Points) = (15d6+CHA)-5 Extra Turning: Add your turning level agian to your turn points (scales with turning level). This Feat can be taken multiple times. (Turn points gained at a rate of 4,5,6, etc. x (turning level)+ CHA modifier) Improved Turning: Your effective Turning level for determining the damage cap is increased by one. This Feat can be taken multiple times. (TR +5 vs TL:15 (Effectivly 15+1, and spending sixteen Turn Points) = (16d6+16+CHA)
Thelon Fairblade 02-24-05, 03:29 PM	barbarian skeleton = d12 fighter skeleton = D12!!! Ghoul = 2d12 Wraith = 4d12 Seeing the pattern here? All undead have d12. Anyway... I would rather see the cleric do d6 per level.
Oneiros 02-24-05, 03:48 PM	I went over this alot on SeanKReynolds boards, and these are the rules for my campaign I distilled from that thread. Note that I do give a saving throw, and lessen the damage, because play-testing showed that the cleric dominates the combat too much in undead encounters otherwise, making other characters pretty much say "Oh, vampires. Sit back and let the cleric handle it." With the lower damage method, the cleric can contribute to the encounter without being overwhelming. Turn Susceptibility (zombies and skeletons get a Will Save penalty) helps address the problem of a dumb, giant zombie having a better save than a wickedly smart vampire mage. I'm still trying to decide if the ability to Command Undead should be a free option after the target has been reduced to zero HP, or if it should require a separate Turn attempt. ------------------------------------------------- Turning Undead When using a Turn Undead Attempt, a cleric energy deals damage to undead creatures equal to: [1/2 Cleric level x d8] + Cleric Level A 1st level cleric still does a minimum of 1d8+1. The area affected is a 25 ft cone burst + 5ft/2 levels. Undead in this area must make a Will Save vs. 10 + 1/2 Cleric Level + Cha bonus. A successful Will Save results in half damage. Paladins treat their level as three lower for purposes of damage, range and DC calculations. Using Negative Energy for Turning Characters who channel negative energy may not use it to harm undead directly. Instead, Turning which uses negative energy can be used in any of the following ways: Rebuking: Damage dealt to undead by Turning is considered subdual, and is an exception to undead's immunity to non-lethal damage. Once subdual damage exceeds each target's total hit points, the target is considered to be cowering. After 10 rounds, the undead begin recovering from subdual, gaining a number of hit points back equal to their Hit Dice each round, and are no longer cowering. Commanding: When attempting to Command undead, the area of effect is a burst instead of a cone, centered on the cleric. Any undead in the area of effect must make a Will save or fall under the cleric's mental command. The undead may add their current hit points to the Will Save, so commanding is usually reserved until after the targets are Rebuked to the point of cowering. The effect is similar to the Control Undead spell, except any number of undead can be affected whose total hit dice do not exceed the cleric's level x 2. The effect lasts a number of minutes equal to the cleric's CHA modifier (minimum 1). Healing: Negative Energy may heal undead rather than rebuke them, but the number of dice and range remain the same. Enhanced Turning By using more than one daily Turn Attempt as part of the same action, a cleric may add any of the following enhancements, at a cost of one Turn Attempt per effect. More than one enhancement may be used at a time, but effects do not stack with themselves. Overwhelming Light: +2 Sacred/Profane bonus to the Save DC Fearful Light: A failed Will Save also leaves targets Shaken for 10 rounds Sacred/Profane Light: Any undead approaching the cleric treat him as if he were under the effects of a Sanctuary spell for one round Positive Energy Only Burning Light: On a failed REF save against the original Turn DC, the targets have also caught on fire Negative Energy Only Bolstering Light: For Will saves against Turning damage, the affected Undead receive a bonus equal to the cleric's WIS bonus. This bonus lasts for 10 rounds Commanding Light: When making a Rebuke attempt, the cleric may also attempt to Command any undead in that same round. Resolve the rebuking damage first. Other Changes The changes to the Turning Undead rules do impact some other rules designed for the official system. Here are the modifications to those rules to work with the system presented here: Turn Resistance Creatures with Turn resistance add this value to their Will save. A +2 Turn Resistance also gives Positive Energy Resistance 5, while +4 gives Positive Energy Resistance 10. Turning Other Creatures Some domains grant the ability to turn other creatures besides undead. Those abilities follow the same rules as Turning Undead. Turn Susceptibility Mindless undead, such as skeletons and zombies, are usually more vulnerable to Turning. Zombies typically have a -4 to their Will Save against Turning, and Skeletons a -2 Feats Extra Turning: grants +3 turning attempts per day Improved Turning: Cleric Level treated as +2 for determining range, damage and Save DC Domains Sun Domain: The granted power of the Sun domain is changed to Empowered Turning - Once per day, Turn Undead damage is x 1.5 Magic Items Phylactery of Undead Turning: This item still functions as written, but note how this works with the new Turning rules.
Oneiros 02-24-05, 03:54 PM	Seeing the pattern here? All undead have d12. Anyway... I would rather see the cleric do d6 per level. For some reason I like the damage variant of Turning to be based on d8, because so many other cleric spells are, especially Cure spells, which are also based on positive energy. But in my system, I also reduce damage to 1 die per 2 cleric levels (plus a number of points equal to cleric level) This is also modelled after the progression of Cure spells. Note that the d6/lvl damage Turning variant is one of those listed in Unearthed Arcana.
HailSpork 02-24-05, 06:12 PM	The problem with your proposed Turn Resistance rules is that not all the undead are necessarily going to have it. What if you turn 10 skeletons and a... hmm... do wraiths have turn resistance? Well, 10 skeletons and an unknown 11th undead with turn resistance. The turning attempt should still be equally effective against the skeletons. Also, a system of reducing the damage per die is very very clunky. Perhaps each level of turn resistance grants DR 10 vs turning and a bonus on will save vs turning? So, let's say there are 5 1hd skeletons (7 hp each) and a 5 hd undead with L1 turn resistance (35 hp). A level 8 cleric turns for 8d8+8+3 and rolls a total of 75. This kills the 5 skeletons and leaves 40 damage left, 10 of which gets soaked up by the turn resistance. There's 30 left; depending on whether you're doing all or nothing or straight damage, this will either hurt or ignore the last undead. (note: just saw Oneiros's post after I typed this out. Very similar line of thought, so of course I like it ;)
Greyman 02-25-05, 04:55 AM	I'm sure I'm not the only one who feels this way, most people I've heard arn't exactly pleased with the way it works it the book. I'm sure it is balanced, and all that, but it is...so abstract and clunky... I think that there is a better way of handling this. Why not just have it deal (your turning level) d (whatever die type the thing uses) That is basically the Destroy the Undead turning variant, as detailed in the Complete Divine where a turning attempt deals cleric level d6 points of positive energy damage to all undead within 30 feet. Turning resistance becomes positive energy resistance (though with the numerical value increased). Why d6 for damage? Well, since undead use d12 for hit points, this means that on average a cleric will deal out enough damage to destroy undead with half her cleric level in hit die. By the normal rules, a successful turn check automatically destroys all such undead.
Oneiros 02-25-05, 12:42 PM	Turning resistance becomes positive energy resistance (though with the numerical value increased). Do you have what that increase is? I thought it was a straight value conversion: +2 TR = Positive Energy Resistance 2. That felt a little too wimpy to me, so I upped the typical +2 and +4 values to 5 and 10 respectively. Why d6 for damage? Well, since undead use d12 for hit points, this means that on average a cleric will deal out enough damage to destroy undead with half her cleric level in hit die. By the normal rules, a successful turn check automatically destroys all such undead. The caveats there are "average" and "successful". The RAW Turn Check is a lot less predictable, and the cleric may destroy considerably less undead. Also, on a really good roll, the d6/lvl system may destroy more undead than would be possible with the RAW Turn Check. Still a little too powerful for me. Even though my system doesn't do that much less average damage, limiting the effect to a cone keeps the cleric from totally wiping out all the undead around him. Not picking on you, Greyman, since I know you were only explaining published rules. Just explaining some of the choices I made for my system.
Oneiros 02-25-05, 03:11 PM	One other house rule I was thinking about applying to Turning was to space out the number of attempts the Cleric gets per day. As it is, the ability is very "front-loaded" - a high CHA cleric could get 7 attempts a day at level one, and that never improves (except in cases where the Cleric actually improves CHA) I was thinking of restricting the CHA bonus to 1/2 current level. This way, an 18 CHA cleric wouldn't get his four extra turn attempts (or Turn Points, in Mr. Hopebringer's variant) until 8th level. Also, this gives the higher CHA cleric a little something at even levels, while getting his next higher spell level on the odds. Hopebringer: I'm still not sure on your Turn Point mechanic. Perhaps a detailed example might help, but it seems to use some mechanics which aren't really found anywhere else in the d20 system, which is part of the problem with the current Turning rules. Couple of minor things: CHA adds to damage twice. Once as the straight bonus, and next by burning the extra points it grants. Have it only do one or the other. The Turn Resistance functioning two different ways (for lesser and greater) is a little confusing. One is a flat amount, and one is based on the cleric's level? Plus, TR normally comes in +2 and +4 varieties. Also, you have range listed - what about area of effect? Target? Considering a 10th lvl cleric with 18 CHA could pump out 73 points of damage average, over 100 pts max, if he can do that to everything within 60' feet, that's HUGE, even if he had to burn all his points to do it.
donm61873 02-25-05, 05:30 PM	I've altered the Turn Undead mechanic myself, but I tried to stay closer to the existing rules, so I wouldn't have to change the feats... This variant creates four groups of Undead in an encounter: 1. Undead you didn't affect, who are annoyed with you, and less likely to be affected again 2. Undead you did affect, who stayed behind and are annoyed with you 3. Undead you scared away 4. Undead you blew up Turning Checks Turning undead is a supernatural ability that a character can perform as a standard action. It does not provoke attacks of opportunity. You must present your holy symbol to turn undead. Turning is considered an attack. Times per Day: You may attempt to turn undead a number of times per day equal to 3 + your Charisma modifier. You can increase this number by taking the Extra Turning feat. Range: You turn the closest turnable undead first, and you can't turn undead that are more than 60 feet away or that have total cover relative to you. You don't need line of sight to a target, but you do need line of effect. Turning Check: The first thing you do is roll a turning check to see if you affect any undead within 60 feet. To make a turning check: d20 + Cleric Level + Charisma modifier + other modifiers Turn DC for Undead: 12 + creature's Hit Dice + Turn Resistance You then check your result against all undead within 60 feet, noting if you equal or beat each creature�s Turn DC. Turning checks do not have automatic misses or hits. Turning Damage: If your roll is high enough to let you turn at least some of the undead within 60 feet, roll 2d6 + your Cleric level + your Charisma modifier for turning damage. That�s how many total Hit Dice of undead you actually turn, affecting the lowest HD of undead in the area of effect first. You may skip over already turned undead that are still within range, so that you do not waste your turning capacity on them. Undead within the area of effect who were affected by the turning check but were not turned are affected as if shaken; undead within the area of effect who were not affected by the turning check gain a +2 turn resistance for 10 rounds. This bonus can stack from multiple failed attempts to turn, even by multiple clerics. Effect and Duration of Turning: Turned undead react as if frightened for 10 rounds. If you approach within 10 feet of them, however, they overcome being turned and act normally. (You can stand within 10 feet without breaking the turning effect-you just can't approach them.) You can attack them with ranged attacks (from at least 10 feet away), and others can attack them in any fashion, without breaking the turning effect. Destroying Undead: If you have twice as many levels (or more) as the undead have Hit Dice, you destroy any that you would normally turn. Evil Clerics and Undead Evil clerics channel negative energy to rebuke (awe) or command (control) undead rather than channeling positive energy to turn or destroy them. An evil cleric makes the equivalent of a turning check. Undead that would be turned are rebuked instead, and those that would be destroyed are commanded. Rebuked: A rebuked undead creature is awed by the cleric, as if shaken or frightened, as the evil cleric desires. The effect lasts 10 rounds. Commanded: A commanded undead creature is under the mental control of the evil cleric. The cleric must take a standard action to give mental orders to a commanded undead. At any one time, the cleric may command any number of undead whose total Hit Dice do not exceed his level. He may voluntarily relinquish command on any commanded undead creature or creatures in order to command new ones. Dispelling Turning: An evil cleric may channel negative energy to dispel a good cleric's turning effect. The evil cleric makes a turning check as if attempting to rebuke the undead. If the turning check result is equal to or greater than the turning check result that the good cleric scored when turning the undead, then the undead are no longer turned. Bolstering Undead: An evil cleric may also bolster undead creatures against turning in advance. He makes a turning check as if attempting to rebuke the undead, but the difference between the turning check and the creature's Turn DC is gained by the creature as additional, temporary turn resistance. The bolstering lasts 10 rounds. An evil undead cleric can bolster himself in this manner. Bolstering also removes all shaken effects from turning on affected undead.