Alternate way to do skills [Archive] - Wizards Community

Alternate way to do skills [Archive] - Wizards Community

Post/Author/DateTime Post
Engilbrand
06-01-06, 12:21 PM Just throwing this idea out there. Someone mentioned that he doesn't like having characters with dump stats.
Situation: Character X has a 6 in CHA, but is a Rogue with high INT. He takes Bluff and Diplomacy. Somehow, this person nobody wants to be around and would be distrustful of is able to convince people of things easily. That doesn't make sense.
Here's an idea, albeit a flawed one that needs polishing: What about making max ranks in a skill equal to the attribute? A smart character can be really good at a lot of things, especially knowledges and stuff, but why does that mean he's charismatic enough to be diplomatic? Why would being smart mean that he can climb?
Someone dumps WIS. The WIS based skills are going to suffer. Drop DEX? You won't be balancing. (darn) Things like this. What sorts of changes would you make to this? Are there any big flaws that you see creeping up?

Another skill based thing that came to mind would include doing skills like they're done in White Wolf systems. There are some skills that go together, and you get more from those than of others. Maybe a fighter chooses the STR-based skills and can easily fill them up, then spends more points on other skills. Just a thought.
Cheza
06-01-06, 01:13 PM What's about skillpoints aren't only intelligence-dependant. What if charisma gives you points for charisma-skills and so on.... wisdom for wisdom based skills and so on. Intelligence however gives you points for any skill.

It would be more like "on what am I focosed??".
Engilbrand
06-01-06, 01:32 PM I thought of that one, too. Use 2 + your modifier as the number of points you put into a skill. A fighter might have 5 to put into STR skills, 3 into DEX, 4 into CON, etc. It has its positives. Might be a problem in games where everyone has low ability scores, though.
Cheza
06-01-06, 02:49 PM Might be a problem in games where everyone has low ability scores, though.
Well... you're right! But 2+ability mod. should give you at least 1 point per level, if you have a score of 8. Maybe a 1 point per X levels could be a wise plan for low-score players.
Tequila_Sunrise
06-01-06, 03:16 PM Your intentions are noble, but the reality is that the skill system is already complex enough. If player X wants to be really cohesive, he won't make Cha his dump stat and then take a bunch of Cha related skills. If not, well there are plenty of skeezy people who you'd never think would be good at interacting with other people in any way but somehow manage to be great at it. Just leave well enough alone and RP it.
Platonix
06-01-06, 03:17 PM Situation: Character X has a 6 in CHA, but is a Rogue with high INT. He takes Bluff and Diplomacy. Somehow, this person nobody wants to be around and would be distrustful of is able to convince people of things easily. That doesn't make sense.
...
Why would being smart mean that he can climb?
The idea behind skills is that you learn how to work smarter, not harder. Someone who's naturally untrustworthy (low CHA) can still become good at bluffing by using reverse psychology. He tells the truth, knowing people will think it a lie, and so is able to convince people of something by pretending he wants them to think it false.

In the case of Climb, characters with higher Strength are better able to keep a grip and hoist themselves up, while people with more ranks in the Climb skill are better able to tell secure handholds from loose ones at a glance and have learned to adjust their leverage so that they don't tire themselves out as quickly.
Cheza
06-01-06, 03:58 PM In the case of Climb, characters with higher Strength are better able to keep a grip and hoist themselves up, while people with more ranks in the Climb skill are better able to tell secure handholds from loose ones at a glance and have learned to adjust their leverage so that they don't tire themselves out as quickly.
Let's take other skills like spot. :D

The problem with the actual skill system is, that all skills can be made better with pure intelligence. I can argue that a character with charisma 6 will never be able to learn when he made it right and when he did the wrong thing.

That's the problem with social interactions. You can't LEARN it by reading a book or two. You can't expect a shy guy to step in front of a crowd just because he "knows" that this could increase his reputation... or more fantasy-like spoken: will get him the information he needs.

What I suggested is a different way to look at the skills. Let's say abilities are the basics. The better you are in one stat the more you can focus yourself in one part of it. So you can't expect a person to be a good in swim, climb and jump without a significant increase in strength. Someone who trained a lot to be "able to tell secure handholds from loose ones", should have climbed a lot. Compulsory (hope this word is correct) this would have increased his strength.
RecycledDM
06-02-06, 02:36 AM I was thinking along the lines of the OP just today...

Here's what I came up with as an alternative skill point system that ties point accumulation and related skills together:

Instead of X + Int modifier skill points (X dependent upon class, as usual), you get X + [Choose Ability] modifier skill points. You can put the X skill points into whatever skill you want (as usual), but the [Choose Ability] modifier skill points can ONLY go into skills that are based on that ability.

Example:

Starting Rogue with Int 10 (0 modifier), Dex 16 (+3 modifier). Chooses to use Dex to determine starting skill points, so gets (8+3)*4=44 total skill points; however, this is distributed as 8*4=32 skill points that can go into ANY skills, and 3*4=12 skill points that can only go into Dex-based skills (Balance, Move Silently, Open Lock, etc.)

On going to second level, said rogue again decides to use Dex to boost skill points; gets 8 skill points that can go into anything, and 3 that go only into Dex-based skills.

This system would tend to "steer" characters toward excelling in skills that are based on their high Ability scores...which I believe is the OP's original intent...but still allow them to boost needed "basic survival" skills (Spot, Search, Bluff, to name three important skills based on three different Abilities). If there is a downside to this system, it is that it would improve the overall skillfulness of all classes except wizards (which I do NOT see as a downside, BTW), and could increase character power relative to monsters (although this is doubtful, since many monsters, like dumb animals for example, are simply given "racial bonuses" on specific skills to cover up their low Int scores).
Engilbrand
06-02-06, 02:10 PM Fantastic. This is exactly what I was looking for. I think I'll actually use this variant when the current game resets. Fighters won't suck as bad when it comes to skills anymore! Woohoo! Thanks.

Post/Author/DateTime	Post
Engilbrand 06-01-06, 12:21 PM	Just throwing this idea out there. Someone mentioned that he doesn't like having characters with dump stats. Situation: Character X has a 6 in CHA, but is a Rogue with high INT. He takes Bluff and Diplomacy. Somehow, this person nobody wants to be around and would be distrustful of is able to convince people of things easily. That doesn't make sense. Here's an idea, albeit a flawed one that needs polishing: What about making max ranks in a skill equal to the attribute? A smart character can be really good at a lot of things, especially knowledges and stuff, but why does that mean he's charismatic enough to be diplomatic? Why would being smart mean that he can climb? Someone dumps WIS. The WIS based skills are going to suffer. Drop DEX? You won't be balancing. (darn) Things like this. What sorts of changes would you make to this? Are there any big flaws that you see creeping up? Another skill based thing that came to mind would include doing skills like they're done in White Wolf systems. There are some skills that go together, and you get more from those than of others. Maybe a fighter chooses the STR-based skills and can easily fill them up, then spends more points on other skills. Just a thought.
Cheza 06-01-06, 01:13 PM	What's about skillpoints aren't only intelligence-dependant. What if charisma gives you points for charisma-skills and so on.... wisdom for wisdom based skills and so on. Intelligence however gives you points for any skill. It would be more like "on what am I focosed??".
Engilbrand 06-01-06, 01:32 PM	I thought of that one, too. Use 2 + your modifier as the number of points you put into a skill. A fighter might have 5 to put into STR skills, 3 into DEX, 4 into CON, etc. It has its positives. Might be a problem in games where everyone has low ability scores, though.
Cheza 06-01-06, 02:49 PM	Might be a problem in games where everyone has low ability scores, though. Well... you're right! But 2+ability mod. should give you at least 1 point per level, if you have a score of 8. Maybe a 1 point per X levels could be a wise plan for low-score players.
Tequila_Sunrise 06-01-06, 03:16 PM	Your intentions are noble, but the reality is that the skill system is already complex enough. If player X wants to be really cohesive, he won't make Cha his dump stat and then take a bunch of Cha related skills. If not, well there are plenty of skeezy people who you'd never think would be good at interacting with other people in any way but somehow manage to be great at it. Just leave well enough alone and RP it.
Platonix 06-01-06, 03:17 PM	Situation: Character X has a 6 in CHA, but is a Rogue with high INT. He takes Bluff and Diplomacy. Somehow, this person nobody wants to be around and would be distrustful of is able to convince people of things easily. That doesn't make sense. ... Why would being smart mean that he can climb? The idea behind skills is that you learn how to work smarter, not harder. Someone who's naturally untrustworthy (low CHA) can still become good at bluffing by using reverse psychology. He tells the truth, knowing people will think it a lie, and so is able to convince people of something by pretending he wants them to think it false. In the case of Climb, characters with higher Strength are better able to keep a grip and hoist themselves up, while people with more ranks in the Climb skill are better able to tell secure handholds from loose ones at a glance and have learned to adjust their leverage so that they don't tire themselves out as quickly.
Cheza 06-01-06, 03:58 PM	In the case of Climb, characters with higher Strength are better able to keep a grip and hoist themselves up, while people with more ranks in the Climb skill are better able to tell secure handholds from loose ones at a glance and have learned to adjust their leverage so that they don't tire themselves out as quickly. Let's take other skills like spot. :D The problem with the actual skill system is, that all skills can be made better with pure intelligence. I can argue that a character with charisma 6 will never be able to learn when he made it right and when he did the wrong thing. That's the problem with social interactions. You can't LEARN it by reading a book or two. You can't expect a shy guy to step in front of a crowd just because he "knows" that this could increase his reputation... or more fantasy-like spoken: will get him the information he needs. What I suggested is a different way to look at the skills. Let's say abilities are the basics. The better you are in one stat the more you can focus yourself in one part of it. So you can't expect a person to be a good in swim, climb and jump without a significant increase in strength. Someone who trained a lot to be "able to tell secure handholds from loose ones", should have climbed a lot. Compulsory (hope this word is correct) this would have increased his strength.
RecycledDM 06-02-06, 02:36 AM	I was thinking along the lines of the OP just today... Here's what I came up with as an alternative skill point system that ties point accumulation and related skills together: Instead of X + Int modifier skill points (X dependent upon class, as usual), you get X + [Choose Ability] modifier skill points. You can put the X skill points into whatever skill you want (as usual), but the [Choose Ability] modifier skill points can ONLY go into skills that are based on that ability. Example: Starting Rogue with Int 10 (0 modifier), Dex 16 (+3 modifier). Chooses to use Dex to determine starting skill points, so gets (8+3)4=44 total skill points; however, this is distributed as 84=32 skill points that can go into ANY skills, and 3*4=12 skill points that can only go into Dex-based skills (Balance, Move Silently, Open Lock, etc.) On going to second level, said rogue again decides to use Dex to boost skill points; gets 8 skill points that can go into anything, and 3 that go only into Dex-based skills. This system would tend to "steer" characters toward excelling in skills that are based on their high Ability scores...which I believe is the OP's original intent...but still allow them to boost needed "basic survival" skills (Spot, Search, Bluff, to name three important skills based on three different Abilities). If there is a downside to this system, it is that it would improve the overall skillfulness of all classes except wizards (which I do NOT see as a downside, BTW), and could increase character power relative to monsters (although this is doubtful, since many monsters, like dumb animals for example, are simply given "racial bonuses" on specific skills to cover up their low Int scores).
Engilbrand 06-02-06, 02:10 PM	Fantastic. This is exactly what I was looking for. I think I'll actually use this variant when the current game resets. Fighters won't suck as bad when it comes to skills anymore! Woohoo! Thanks.