Post/Author/DateTime	Post
HailSpork 02-19-05, 04:07 AM	UA includes a method of alternate XP progression on page 213. I was reading this over, and it reminded me of right before 3rd ed came out, the wizards.com page had several articles discussing 3rd and the design thereof, mostly focusing on the unfinishied XP system. As I recall, there were 4 systems they were deciding between, finally going with the CR/level-dependent system. I checked the archives at wizards.com (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/arch/2000) and it doesn't seem to go back that far. Does anybody know about any of the other intended systems? Also, has anybody tried out the system in UA? How was it?
Lord_Anthrax 02-19-05, 07:48 AM	The system in UA is awesome. I won't use the core system ever again. It allows the same progression speed as the core, based on challenges of equal level, yet allows you to still throw weak creatures at your PC's and give XP for it, and makes calculating EL sooo much easier.
Ra-Tiel 02-19-05, 04:30 PM	The system in UA is awesome. I won't use the core system ever again. It allows the same progression speed as the core, based on challenges of equal level, yet allows you to still throw weak creatures at your PC's and give XP for it, and makes calculating EL sooo much easier. Hello. I must warn you on the alernative xp progression from UA: do *not* use it if you ever want to play epic. I've done a little math and discovered a very disturbing fact: from level 12 on the xp amount needed for the next level starts growing with 2^n every second level! I've made an OpenOffice spreadsheet to calculate the numbers up to level 100. The level 100 group needs ~29.500 encounters of CR100 to get to level 101. I know, nobody plays that level but it shows the flaw of the system! Just my :twocents: _Ra-Tiel.
scwolf 02-19-05, 05:21 PM	The level 100 group needs ~29.500 encounters of CR100 to get to level 101. I know, nobody plays that level but it shows the flaw of the system! For some campaigns, that's not a bug, it's a feature. As a practical example, I can see it being a good fit onto an Eberron Campaign, given the assumptions built into the campaign setting that character levels themselves are rare, and even having a smattering of low levels marks is the mark of a character of great import. In that situation, I don't see a draw back in a system that makes it progressively harder to level up the higher you go.
Ra-Tiel 02-19-05, 05:34 PM	:teach: Just as a sidenote: assuming the group can handle 10 encounters each hour and plays for 10 hours a week for every week of the year without interruption: 10*10*52 = 5200 encounters/year. That means the group will need to play for 29500/5200 = ~5,67 years or better 2071 days before gaining an additional level. :crazy: :looloo: Rare high level characters nice and good, but ^this^ is just ridiculous! Just my :twocents: _Ra-Tiel.
HailSpork 02-19-05, 06:11 PM	The CR chart also looks a little... off. If you look at the differences between consecutive CR's, they should get progressively larger or stay the same: The difference between a CR 13 and a CR 12 is 10,000. CR 14-CR 13: only 9,000 CR 15-CR 14: 20k CR 16-CR 15: only 19k CR 17-CR 16: 43k (!!!) CR 18-CR 17: only 30k After that, it gets better. (two 80k's, 150k, 160k, then you just keep doubling the last two) I think the problem starts at level 10. Instead of needing 108k to reach level 11, they changed it to 110k to make a more rounded number. This would mean you would need about 9600 xp from a CR 10 to allow a party of 4 to encounter 13.333 encounters and level up. However, with the extra 2k a person, a CR 10 should now be worth 10,200. I'm not opposed to using more rounded numbers, but the CR value should fit. Also, after level 10, they completely break out of the pattern of double the difference 2 levels ago and go to just double the amount of 2 levels ago. I think if I use this variant, I might make my own chart. After level 10, there's a problem of two consecutive levels are close in their XP requirements, then a jump. While this may be more fitting to spellcasters, I prefer a more geometric pattern. Besides, based on the 13.333 encounters for a party of 4, it would make the CR chart more evenly distributed (which is actually a heavier concern to me)
HailSpork 02-19-05, 07:29 PM	Alright, I made a new chart. Total ---- Per CR 0 -------- 300 1k ------- 600 3k ------- 900 6k ------- 1200 10k ------ 1800 16k ------ 2700 25k ------ 3600 37k ------ 5400 55k ------ 7200 79k ------ 10800 115k ----- 15000 165k ----- 22500 240k ----- 30k 340k ----- 45k 490k ----- 63k 700k ----- 90k 1000k ---- 120k 1400k ---- 180k 2000k ---- 240k 2800k ---- 360k 4000k ---- 480k This means that a party of 4 facing encounters with the same CR as their level should need 13.333333 encounters to level up, even if they're going from level 100 to level 101. Of course, it's still up to the GM where they're going to find CR 100's... What do people think of this chart? edit: started at needing 1k for level 1 rather than to advance past level 1...
scwolf 02-19-05, 08:46 PM	:teach: Just as a sidenote: assuming the group can handle 10 encounters each hour and plays for 10 hours a week for every week of the year without interruption: 10*10*52 = 5200 encounters/year. That means the group will need to play for 29500/5200 = ~5,67 years or better 2071 days before gaining an additional level. A little over 5 and a half years to go from Level 100 to Level 101? Forgive me if I happen to think acheving level 101 should be something that takes a long time. Since you've got the chart and your little formula handy, would you care to give durations for some leveling that's a little closer to home? Say how long it would take to go from say 10 to 11, 15 to 16, 20 to 21, and 25 to 26?
HailSpork 02-19-05, 08:58 PM	That's also at 100 encounters a session. While it may take a long time to get from level 100 to level 101, it shouldn't be too long if you're facing CR 100's. It shouldn't take 29,500 encounters. 10 to 11 takes 34,000 xp at 9,600 xp per encounter; with a party of 4, that takes just over 14 encounters. (14.17) 15 to 16 takes 200,000 xp at 58,000 xp per encounter; with a party of 4, that takes 14 encounters. (13.79) 20 to 21 takes 1,000,000 xp at 310,000 per encounter; with a party of 4, that takes 13 encounters (12.90). 25 to 26 takes takes 6,400,000 xp at 1,840,000 xp per encounter; with a party of 4, that takes 14 encounters (13.91) Given that both the XP required and the XP per encounter are based on a 2^x system, the number of encounters should stay relatively constant, alternating between 13 and 14. Ra, you might want to double-check your math.
Ra-Tiel 02-20-05, 05:02 AM	@HailSpork: You were right, I had an error in my calculations. Therefore it comes to the following (still ridiculous numbers): Level XP needed (UA) XP needed (core) XP reward # of encounters to gain level for 4 PCs 1 0 0 300 13 2 1000 1000 600 13 3 3000 3000 900 13 4 6000 6000 1200 13 5 10000 10000 1800 13 6 16000 15000 2400 13 7 24000 21000 3600 13 8 36000 28000 4800 13 9 52000 36000 7200 13 10 76000 45000 9600 14 11 110000 55000 14000 14 12 160000 66000 19000 12 13 220000 78000 29000 13 14 320000 91000 38000 12 15 440000 105000 58000 13 16 640000 120000 77000 12 17 890000 136000 120000 13 18 1300000 153000 150000 13 19 1800000 171000 230000 13 20 2600000 190000 310000 12 21 3600000 210000 460000 13 22 5200000 231000 620000 12 23 7200000 253000 920000 13 24 10400000 276000 1240000 12 25 14400000 300000 1840000 13 26 20800000 325000 2480000 12 27 28800000 351000 3680000 13 28 41600000 378000 4960000 12 29 57600000 406000 7360000 13 30 83200000 435000 9920000 12 31 115200000 465000 14720000 13 32 166400000 496000 19840000 12 33 230400000 528000 29440000 13 34 332800000 561000 39680000 12 35 460800000 595000 58880000 13 36 665600000 630000 79360000 12 37 921600000 666000 117760000 13 38 1331200000 703000 158720000 12 39 1843200000 741000 235520000 13 40 2662400000 780000 317440000 12 41 3686400000 820000 471040000 13 42 5324800000 861000 634880000 12 43 7372800000 903000 942080000 13 44 10649600000 946000 1269760000 12 45 14745600000 990000 1884160000 13 46 21299200000 1035000 2539520000 12 47 29491200000 1081000 3768320000 13 48 42598400000 1128000 5079040000 12 49 58982400000 1176000 7536640000 13 50 85196800000 1225000 10158080000 12 51 117964800000 1275000 15073280000 13 52 170393600000 1326000 20316160000 12 53 235929600000 1378000 30146560000 13 54 340787200000 1431000 40632320000 12 55 471859200000 1485000 60293120000 13 56 681574400000 1540000 81264640000 12 57 943718400000 1596000 120586240000 13 58 1363148800000 1653000 162529280000 12 59 1887436800000 1711000 241172480000 13 60 2726297600000 1770000 325058560000 12 61 3774873600000 1830000 482344960000 13 62 5452595200000 1891000 650117120000 12 63 7549747200000 1953000 964689920000 13 64 10905190400000 2016000 1300234240000 12 65 15099494400000 2080000 1929379840000 13 66 21810380800000 2145000 2600468480000 12 67 30198988800000 2211000 3858759680000 13 68 43620761600000 2278000 5200936960000 12 69 60397977600000 2346000 7717519360000 13 70 87241523200000 2415000 10401873920000 12 71 120795955200000 2485000 15435038720000 13 72 174483046400000 2556000 20803747840000 12 73 241591910400000 2628000 30870077440000 13 74 348966092800000 2701000 41607495680000 12 75 483183820800000 2775000 61740154880000 13 76 697932185600000 2850000 83214991360000 12 77 966367641600000 2926000 123480309760000 13 78 1,40E+015 3003000 166429982720000 12 79 1,93E+015 3081000 246960619520000 13 80 2,79E+015 3160000 332859965440000 12 81 3,87E+015 3240000 493921239040000 13 82 5,58E+015 3321000 665719930880000 12 83 7,73E+015 3403000 987842478080000 13 84 1,12E+016 3486000 1,33E+015 12 85 1,55E+016 3570000 1,98E+015 13 86 2,23E+016 3655000 2,66E+015 12 87 3,09E+016 3741000 3,95E+015 13 88 4,47E+016 3828000 5,33E+015 12 89 6,18E+016 3916000 7,90E+015 13 90 8,93E+016 4005000 1,07E+016 12 91 1,24E+017 4095000 1,58E+016 13 92 1,79E+017 4186000 2,13E+016 12 93 2,47E+017 4278000 3,16E+016 13 94 3,57E+017 4371000 4,26E+016 12 95 4,95E+017 4465000 6,32E+016 13 96 7,15E+017 4560000 8,52E+016 12 97 9,90E+017 4656000 1,26E+017 13 98 1,43E+018 4753000 1,70E+017 12 99 1,98E+018 4851000 2,53E+017 13 100 2,86E+018 4950000 3,41E+017 Sorry for :shocked:-ing you, but these numbers are still insane. Non-scientific calculators are going to tell you "ERROR" if you want to type that in! DnD is math-heavy compared to for example the storyteller system (Vampire, Werwolf,...) but ^THAT^ is just stupid! You cannot calculate xp according to a table that grows by 2^x! It's just silly to go for a system where most players have to look up the name of the number in a dictionary past level 60. Just my :twocents: _Ra-Tiel. PS: Thank you for ascending me to godhood, HailSpork ;). I think I'm going to like my job as the egypt sun-god!
srkingdavy 02-20-05, 05:59 AM	I play with fellow comp sci majors... shouldn't be a problem :D
scwolf 02-20-05, 04:58 PM	It's just silly to go for a system where most players have to look up the name of the number in a dictionary past level 60. To paraphrase a quote from the golfing world (Originally said by Bobby Jones about Jack Nicklaus and then later by Jack Nicklaus about Tiger Woods), you play a game with which I'm not familiar. Personally, I've never been a part of a game where any PC got past level 30, but then again, the groups I tend to frequent don't see leveling as the end all, be all of the game. I've no doubt that there are groups that do go into higher levels like that, but at that point, not being able to use a cheap one-dollar 8-digit and 18 button calculator to calculate the amount of XP needed to level is the least of that group's worries, I would think.
rigon 02-27-05, 08:59 AM	I think the core system is slightly broken. Here's my reason; In a long running 2ndED FR campaign, I was playing a 1/2elf ranger with no bonus to XP because of lower prime stats. The charater only achieved 11th level in about 5 years of heavily played playing time, but was one of the coolest characters I've ever played. When my group switched to 3E/3.5E, the same character jumped from 11th level to 27th level in just under 3 years, in which my group has only meet to play a half dozen times each year. I don't think that the core system gives players enough time to devolop characters to their fullest.
Aricandor 02-27-05, 09:20 AM	Ahhh. That table reminds me of ol' 2E... If we only could get class-specific XP tables back :D
Kursk 02-27-05, 03:02 PM	Hello. I must warn you on the alernative xp progression from UA: do *not* use it if you ever want to play epic. I've done a little math and discovered a very disturbing fact: from level 12 on the xp amount needed for the next level starts growing with 2^n every second level! I've made an OpenOffice spreadsheet to calculate the numbers up to level 100. The level 100 group needs ~29.500 encounters of CR100 to get to level 101. I know, nobody plays that level but it shows the flaw of the system! Just my :twocents: _Ra-Tiel. Didn't you ever play 1st & 2nd Edition??? I can't stand the power gamer mindset. Not your fault though so don't take it wrong. Current edition and the crap Wizards pushes demands it...
HailSpork 02-27-05, 07:02 PM	Even under second edition, if you killed what is now a cr 100 monster and 29,499 of his bretheren, that would be more than the difference of level 100 to level 101. Still, that was a math error; Also, I can't imagine *finding* a CR 100, let alone 29,500 of them.
Aricandor 02-28-05, 04:49 AM	Even under second edition, if you killed what is now a cr 100 monster and 29,499 of his bretheren, that would be more than the difference of level 100 to level 101. Still, that was a math error; Also, I can't imagine *finding* a CR 100, let alone 29,500 of them. As has been said before, that's what the planes are for. :D No, seriously, finding a CR 100 is practically impossible. Finding so many is just silly.
Lina_Inverse 03-01-05, 04:19 AM	I think the core system is slightly broken. Here's my reason; In a long running 2ndED FR campaign, I was playing a 1/2elf ranger with no bonus to XP because of lower prime stats. The charater only achieved 11th level in about 5 years of heavily played playing time, but was one of the coolest characters I've ever played. When my group switched to 3E/3.5E, the same character jumped from 11th level to 27th level in just under 3 years, in which my group has only meet to play a half dozen times each year. I don't think that the core system gives players enough time to devolop characters to their fullest. thats not a bug. there market research showed caimpaigns meet biweekly or weeky,and played one year before ending. but then again,2E leveling was very fast if you knew what you were doing,there was no reason for after 5 sessions a thief NOT to be lvl6.