Alternative class defense bonus idea [Archive] - Wizards Community

Alternative class defense bonus idea [Archive] - Wizards Community

Post/Author/DateTime Post
Banpai
03-04-04, 08:10 AM I like the Defense bonus idea but I had a problem with it chause I DM in a worl where armor is not unusuall so I came up with a different system:

The AC bonus changes from an armor bonus to a dodge bonus and no more than the armors max dex can be added to AC in that way.
I changed the values and the progression too, a Fighter gets +6 till level 20, Cleric and Paladin +5, ,Barbarian Druid Bard and Rogue +4 Sorcerer , Wizard and Monk +3
Additionally to that I will create a Fighter feat that threats armor as if it would had a 1 point highter max dex. can be taken several times
So what do you think is this balanced?

edit:inserted druid:rolleyes:
Jack Daniel
03-04-04, 03:20 PM I was running a system where max dex bonus capped the ammount of defense bonus you could add; all it did was always ensure that every player always had the maximum possible dex bonus to AC, even with a crappy dex score. It doesn't really make characters too powerful, but it does make dexterity far less important, if an imbalance like that bothers you.

At the moment, I'm using the d20 Modern defense bonus progressions, and letting defense stack with armor bonuses (which would be unbalanced if I weren't using the reduced armor bonuses that go with UA's "armor as DR" system).
Banpai
03-04-04, 05:15 PM I made some small changes:
first the defense bonus is now given differently: Fighter+6 Barbarian, Paladin, Ranger +5 Cleric, Druid and Rogue +4 and Sorcerer, Wizard and Monk +3

second I created a feat for this:
Armor adaption [General,Fighter]
reqirements: BAB +8 for the first time taken and +3 BAB for every feat taken after the first time
Benefit: You can use heavier armor than usuall, menas your max armor dex is increased by one for the purpose of adding Defense bonus to AC

About your argument Jack Daniel that this actually makes dex more important chause when you use a chainshirt or preferably a mithril nimble Fullplate your AC will be much better if you have 20 dex than the dex or the typical Full plate user with 10 Dex.
Cathon
03-04-04, 06:52 PM I'm doing a world with little armor and virtually no magic items or special materials.

So I've implemented a bonus AC system where everyone gets a +1 dodge bonus to AC for every 3 points of BAB. Mostly to make up for the lack of better armors, and enchantment, and to reflect that combat skill includes avoiding taking damage as well as dealing it.

This probably wouldn't work in most campaigns, but I think it fits my fighter-heavy one.
Banpai
03-04-04, 07:08 PM Here´s a table

level Defense bonus increase

+6 +5 +4 +3
1 1 1 1 1
2 1 1 1 1
3 1 1 1 1
4 2 1 1 1
5 2 2 1 1
6 2 2 2 1
7 2 2 2 1
8 3 2 2 2
9 3 3 2 2
10 3 3 2 2
11 4 3 3 2
12 4 3 3 2
13 4 4 3 2
14 4 4 3 2
15 5 4 3 3
16 5 4 4 3
17 5 5 4 3
18 6 5 4 3
19 6 5 4 3
20 6 5 4 3
21 6 6 5 3

My system is based upon BAB too though i though a Fighter deserves to get the best. The system is for a mid magic and mid armor campaign and chause the system presented in UA which is still great for armorless campaigns I though that thisone fits what my players want.
Xeviat-DM
03-05-04, 05:15 AM Jack, do you use both class defense and armor as damage reduction? I really like the feel of armor as damage reduction (I personally feel that heavy armor is too weak for its penalties), but I'm afraid of what the reduced AC could do to high level characters, so I'm more likely to use damage conversion rather than damage reduction. But your ideas to make me think, and I'd appreciate an answer on this matter.
JoAT
03-05-04, 04:18 PM *delves into house rule document*
Defense progressions

Good Medium Poor
+1 +1 +0
+2 +2 +1
+2 +2 +1
+3 +3 +1
+3 +3 +2
+4 +3 +2
+4 +4 +2
+5 +4 +3
+5 +5 +3
+6 +5 +3
+6 +5 +4
+7 +6 +4
+7 +6 +4
+8 +6 +5
+8 +7 +5
+9 +7 +5
+9 +8 +6
+10 +8 +6
+10 +8 +6
+11 +9 +7

Good progression goes to classes with both a good reflex save and either an evasion or Uncanny dodge type ability. Classes with Good progression: Monk, Ranger, Rogue, Swashbuckler.

Medium progression to classes with either a good reflex save or an evasion or uncanny dodge type ability. Classes with Medium progression: Barbarian, Bard. I'm thinking that I should put Hexblade in this group - it just seems to fit the flavor.

Poor progression goes to classes with neither. Classes with Poor progression: Cleric, Cloistered Cleric Druid, Fighter, Paladin, Sorcerer, Wizard.

Additional Class abilities:

Armor compatibility(Ex): This ability allows a character to utilize any armor worn to it's best effect, overcoming the defense bonus limit of most suits. Characters with this ability may add their Armor Compatibility number to the maximum defense bonus of any armor worn, for purposes of determining how much of their defense modifier applies.

With this ability, the fighter's progression chart looks like this:

Table: The Fighter
Level BAB Fort Ref Will Special Defense
1st +1 +2 +0 +0 Bonus feat, Reserve +0
2nd +2 +3 +0 +0 Bonus feat +1
3rd +3 +3 +1 +1 Armor Compatibility +1 +1
4th +4 +4 +1 +1 Bonus feat +1
5th +5 +4 +1 +1 +2
6th +6 +5 +2 +2 Bonus feat +2
7th +7 +5 +2 +2 Armor Compatibility +2 +2
8th +8 +6 +2 +2 Bonus feat +3
9th +9 +6 +3 +3 +3
10th +10 +7 +3 +3 Bonus feat +3
11th +11 +7 +3 +3 Armor Compatibility +3 +4
12th +12 +8 +4 +4 Bonus feat +4
13th +13 +8 +4 +4 +4
14th +14 +9 +4 +4 Bonus feat +5
15th +15 +9 +5 +5 Armor Compatibility +4 +5
16th +16 +10 +5 +5 Bonus feat +5
17th +17 +10 +5 +5 +6
18th +18 +11 +6 +6 Bonus feat +6
19th +19 +11 +6 +6 Armor Compatibility +5 +6
20th +20 +12 +6 +6 Bonus feat +7

Armor compatibility is also added to the Paladin, starting at level 5, and going up another +1 at levels 10, 15 and 20.

I'm debating as to whether or not to allow the non-major casters access to this class feature at levels 7 and 14 - granting bards, rangers, barbarians, hexblades and maybe rogues the improved use of armor.

Besides the DR/ Damage conversion rules, armor undergoes a secondary change, albeit smaller than the other two. The maximum Dexterity bonus is changed to read maximum defense bonus. Defense bonus is defined as class defense bonus + Dexterity modifier.
ChrisWaller
03-05-04, 08:07 PM Like just about everybody else on this board, I decided that I liked the concept but disliked the actual implentation. This is all theory at this point as I haven't had a chance to playtest yet.

My plan is to base the defense bonus on BAB and allow it to stack with armor. The downside will be that the armor's check penalty will apply to the defense bonus (to a minimum of zero as always).

One final note: I'm planning to use this in conjunction with the Armor as Damage Reduction variant, so the seemingly high ACs that could result are illusionary.

Level Good Average Poor
1 +0 +0 +0
2 +1 +1 +1
3 +1 +1 +1
4 +2 +2 +1
5 +3 +2 +2
6 +3 +3 +2
7 +4 +3 +3
8 +4 +4 +3
9 +5 +4 +3
10 +6 +5 +4
11 +6 +5 +4
12 +7 +6 +5
13 +7 +6 +5
14 +8 +7 +5
15 +9 +7 +6
16 +9 +8 +6
17 +10 +8 +7
18 +10 +9 +7
19 +11 +9 +7
20 +12 +10 +8
Jack Daniel
03-06-04, 01:16 PM Originally posted by Xeviat-DM
Jack, do you use both class defense and armor as damage reduction? I really like the feel of armor as damage reduction (I personally feel that heavy armor is too weak for its penalties), but I'm afraid of what the reduced AC could do to high level characters, so I'm more likely to use damage conversion rather than damage reduction. But your ideas to make me think, and I'd appreciate an answer on this matter.

Yes, I use both systems at once. The d20 Modern defense bonus stacks with armor bonuses in that game(which is okay, since armor is rarer and weaker than it is in D&D), and so at first I had to come up with a house rule "patch" to make it so armor classes weren't too high. That's why I capped defense using the armor's MDB. As it turned out, it was just a bad idea. When UA came out, with armor as DR having a base armor bonus never higher than +4, that evened things out and made it so I could just say "they stack; simple as that." Plus, since I use VP/WP (and DR from armor only protects WP damage, not VP damage) that actually balances things out overall, and makes it so nothing is over the top.

The defense progressions are about two-thirds of a base attack bonus, more or less, and look like this:

Lv A B C D
1 +1 +1 +3 ±0
2 +2 +1 +3 +1
3 +2 +2 +4 +1
4 +3 +2 +4 +1
5 +4 +3 +5 +2
6 +4 +3 +5 +2
7 +5 +4 +6 +2
8 +6 +4 +6 +3
9 +6 +5 +7 +3
10 +7 +5 +7 +3
... ... ... ... ...

Column A is used for fighters and other classes with the good base attack bonus.
Column B is used for rogues, armored monks, and other classes with the medium base attack bonus.
Column C is used for unarmored monks (and the monk's wisdom bonus to AC is halved, part going to AC and part to DR).
Column D is used for wizards and other classes with the poor base attack bonus.
Xeviat-DM
03-06-04, 02:51 PM Jack, I'm greatly considering that, but I have no desire to put a large patch on my games. The current rules assume stuff like rings of protection, amulets of natural armor, at least 8 AC from armor/dex, and enhancement bonuses (and probably shields) to keep your AC compeditive.

With a +14 bonus to AC at level 20, even with the loss of 4 AC from full plate, I'm worried that ACs would become higher than the game was ment to use.

What's been your experiance on this topic?
Droogie
03-06-04, 02:58 PM Originally posted by Cathon
I'm doing a world with little armor and virtually no magic items or special materials.

So I've implemented a bonus AC system where everyone gets a +1 dodge bonus to AC for every 3 points of BAB. Mostly to make up for the lack of better armors, and enchantment, and to reflect that combat skill includes avoiding taking damage as well as dealing it.

This probably wouldn't work in most campaigns, but I think it fits my fighter-heavy one.

Nice, simple, non-invasive idea.

if I were to use defense bonuses in my games, I would just make it a dodge bonus = 1/2 your BAB. Maybe 1/3 or 1/4 for games with normal to high magic content.

This way, its easy to apply the defense bonus for anyone- monsters and PCs alike.

As always, you can't use dodge bonuses when you are flat-footed.

Nice.
Jack Daniel
03-06-04, 06:36 PM Originally posted by Xeviat-DM
Jack, I'm greatly considering that, but I have no desire to put a large patch on my games. The current rules assume stuff like rings of protection, amulets of natural armor, at least 8 AC from armor/dex, and enhancement bonuses (and probably shields) to keep your AC compeditive.

With a +14 bonus to AC at level 20, even with the loss of 4 AC from full plate, I'm worried that ACs would become higher than the game was ment to use.

What's been your experiance on this topic?

I can't say that I have any experience on the issue, since as a rule our groups have always short-changed our players in the magic equipment department. I've never even opened the DMG to the pages on how much treasure a party is supposed to have at a given level; we've just always ad hoc'ed it; probably a holdover from AD&D. I just don't dole out much in the way of AC-enhancing items, and for some reason, most spellcasters I've run for seem to think that item creation is a waste of time, GP, and EXP, so that hasn't come up either. The only advice I can give you is careful control of magical treasure in your game.
bushido11
03-08-04, 12:06 AM For Defense bonuses, I use the classes from the Wheel of Time RPG as a reference. I also like the idea of Armor as DR. Fighters and Paladins would get Armor Compatibility at 3rd level. However, I'm implementing that if a character were wearing armor, he would use the better of either his class defense or armor bonus to AC.

- Fighters, Paladins, Sorcerers, and Wizards use the Armsman/Initiative Defense bonus chart.
- Monks and Swashbucklers would use the a'gai'de'siswei's Defense bonus chart (replacing the AC bonus entry from the monk's level chart)
- The rest of the standard classes would use the Noble's Defense bonus.

For optional core classes and prestige classes, eyeball which Defense bonus progression most suits them.

The defense bonuses shown in the Wheel of Time RPG are higher than those of d20 Modern because Wheel of Time is a more heroic-type campaign, and my D&D games are on the same scale of heroism as Wheel of Time. The idea of making your Defense Bonus equal to half your BAB, as mentioned earlier, is a very good one, too, and I like the rationale behind it (or the one I found, at least): The more skilled you are at hitting, the more skilled you are at defending. I think I might use that, plus Armor as DR, instead, whereas the AC from Armor stacks with your Defense Bonus (I find that higher level D&D characters are too easy it hit when challenged by monsters of an appropriate difficulty). Either way, I just wanted to throw in my 2 cents.

Post/Author/DateTime	Post
Banpai 03-04-04, 08:10 AM	I like the Defense bonus idea but I had a problem with it chause I DM in a worl where armor is not unusuall so I came up with a different system: The AC bonus changes from an armor bonus to a dodge bonus and no more than the armors max dex can be added to AC in that way. I changed the values and the progression too, a Fighter gets +6 till level 20, Cleric and Paladin +5, ,Barbarian Druid Bard and Rogue +4 Sorcerer , Wizard and Monk +3 Additionally to that I will create a Fighter feat that threats armor as if it would had a 1 point highter max dex. can be taken several times So what do you think is this balanced? edit:inserted druid:rolleyes:
Jack Daniel 03-04-04, 03:20 PM	I was running a system where max dex bonus capped the ammount of defense bonus you could add; all it did was always ensure that every player always had the maximum possible dex bonus to AC, even with a crappy dex score. It doesn't really make characters too powerful, but it does make dexterity far less important, if an imbalance like that bothers you. At the moment, I'm using the d20 Modern defense bonus progressions, and letting defense stack with armor bonuses (which would be unbalanced if I weren't using the reduced armor bonuses that go with UA's "armor as DR" system).
Banpai 03-04-04, 05:15 PM	I made some small changes: first the defense bonus is now given differently: Fighter+6 Barbarian, Paladin, Ranger +5 Cleric, Druid and Rogue +4 and Sorcerer, Wizard and Monk +3 second I created a feat for this: Armor adaption [General,Fighter] reqirements: BAB +8 for the first time taken and +3 BAB for every feat taken after the first time Benefit: You can use heavier armor than usuall, menas your max armor dex is increased by one for the purpose of adding Defense bonus to AC About your argument Jack Daniel that this actually makes dex more important chause when you use a chainshirt or preferably a mithril nimble Fullplate your AC will be much better if you have 20 dex than the dex or the typical Full plate user with 10 Dex.
Cathon 03-04-04, 06:52 PM	I'm doing a world with little armor and virtually no magic items or special materials. So I've implemented a bonus AC system where everyone gets a +1 dodge bonus to AC for every 3 points of BAB. Mostly to make up for the lack of better armors, and enchantment, and to reflect that combat skill includes avoiding taking damage as well as dealing it. This probably wouldn't work in most campaigns, but I think it fits my fighter-heavy one.
Banpai 03-04-04, 07:08 PM	Here´s a table level Defense bonus increase +6 +5 +4 +3 1 1 1 1 1 2 1 1 1 1 3 1 1 1 1 4 2 1 1 1 5 2 2 1 1 6 2 2 2 1 7 2 2 2 1 8 3 2 2 2 9 3 3 2 2 10 3 3 2 2 11 4 3 3 2 12 4 3 3 2 13 4 4 3 2 14 4 4 3 2 15 5 4 3 3 16 5 4 4 3 17 5 5 4 3 18 6 5 4 3 19 6 5 4 3 20 6 5 4 3 21 6 6 5 3 My system is based upon BAB too though i though a Fighter deserves to get the best. The system is for a mid magic and mid armor campaign and chause the system presented in UA which is still great for armorless campaigns I though that thisone fits what my players want.
Xeviat-DM 03-05-04, 05:15 AM	Jack, do you use both class defense and armor as damage reduction? I really like the feel of armor as damage reduction (I personally feel that heavy armor is too weak for its penalties), but I'm afraid of what the reduced AC could do to high level characters, so I'm more likely to use damage conversion rather than damage reduction. But your ideas to make me think, and I'd appreciate an answer on this matter.
JoAT 03-05-04, 04:18 PM	delves into house rule document Defense progressions Good Medium Poor +1 +1 +0 +2 +2 +1 +2 +2 +1 +3 +3 +1 +3 +3 +2 +4 +3 +2 +4 +4 +2 +5 +4 +3 +5 +5 +3 +6 +5 +3 +6 +5 +4 +7 +6 +4 +7 +6 +4 +8 +6 +5 +8 +7 +5 +9 +7 +5 +9 +8 +6 +10 +8 +6 +10 +8 +6 +11 +9 +7 Good progression goes to classes with both a good reflex save and either an evasion or Uncanny dodge type ability. Classes with Good progression: Monk, Ranger, Rogue, Swashbuckler. Medium progression to classes with either a good reflex save or an evasion or uncanny dodge type ability. Classes with Medium progression: Barbarian, Bard. I'm thinking that I should put Hexblade in this group - it just seems to fit the flavor. Poor progression goes to classes with neither. Classes with Poor progression: Cleric, Cloistered Cleric Druid, Fighter, Paladin, Sorcerer, Wizard. Additional Class abilities: Armor compatibility(Ex): This ability allows a character to utilize any armor worn to it's best effect, overcoming the defense bonus limit of most suits. Characters with this ability may add their Armor Compatibility number to the maximum defense bonus of any armor worn, for purposes of determining how much of their defense modifier applies. With this ability, the fighter's progression chart looks like this: Table: The Fighter Level BAB Fort Ref Will Special Defense 1st +1 +2 +0 +0 Bonus feat, Reserve +0 2nd +2 +3 +0 +0 Bonus feat +1 3rd +3 +3 +1 +1 Armor Compatibility +1 +1 4th +4 +4 +1 +1 Bonus feat +1 5th +5 +4 +1 +1 +2 6th +6 +5 +2 +2 Bonus feat +2 7th +7 +5 +2 +2 Armor Compatibility +2 +2 8th +8 +6 +2 +2 Bonus feat +3 9th +9 +6 +3 +3 +3 10th +10 +7 +3 +3 Bonus feat +3 11th +11 +7 +3 +3 Armor Compatibility +3 +4 12th +12 +8 +4 +4 Bonus feat +4 13th +13 +8 +4 +4 +4 14th +14 +9 +4 +4 Bonus feat +5 15th +15 +9 +5 +5 Armor Compatibility +4 +5 16th +16 +10 +5 +5 Bonus feat +5 17th +17 +10 +5 +5 +6 18th +18 +11 +6 +6 Bonus feat +6 19th +19 +11 +6 +6 Armor Compatibility +5 +6 20th +20 +12 +6 +6 Bonus feat +7 Armor compatibility is also added to the Paladin, starting at level 5, and going up another +1 at levels 10, 15 and 20. I'm debating as to whether or not to allow the non-major casters access to this class feature at levels 7 and 14 - granting bards, rangers, barbarians, hexblades and maybe rogues the improved use of armor. Besides the DR/ Damage conversion rules, armor undergoes a secondary change, albeit smaller than the other two. The maximum Dexterity bonus is changed to read maximum defense bonus. Defense bonus is defined as class defense bonus + Dexterity modifier.
ChrisWaller 03-05-04, 08:07 PM	Like just about everybody else on this board, I decided that I liked the concept but disliked the actual implentation. This is all theory at this point as I haven't had a chance to playtest yet. My plan is to base the defense bonus on BAB and allow it to stack with armor. The downside will be that the armor's check penalty will apply to the defense bonus (to a minimum of zero as always). One final note: I'm planning to use this in conjunction with the Armor as Damage Reduction variant, so the seemingly high ACs that could result are illusionary. Level Good Average Poor 1 +0 +0 +0 2 +1 +1 +1 3 +1 +1 +1 4 +2 +2 +1 5 +3 +2 +2 6 +3 +3 +2 7 +4 +3 +3 8 +4 +4 +3 9 +5 +4 +3 10 +6 +5 +4 11 +6 +5 +4 12 +7 +6 +5 13 +7 +6 +5 14 +8 +7 +5 15 +9 +7 +6 16 +9 +8 +6 17 +10 +8 +7 18 +10 +9 +7 19 +11 +9 +7 20 +12 +10 +8
Jack Daniel 03-06-04, 01:16 PM	Originally posted by Xeviat-DM Jack, do you use both class defense and armor as damage reduction? I really like the feel of armor as damage reduction (I personally feel that heavy armor is too weak for its penalties), but I'm afraid of what the reduced AC could do to high level characters, so I'm more likely to use damage conversion rather than damage reduction. But your ideas to make me think, and I'd appreciate an answer on this matter. Yes, I use both systems at once. The d20 Modern defense bonus stacks with armor bonuses in that game(which is okay, since armor is rarer and weaker than it is in D&D), and so at first I had to come up with a house rule "patch" to make it so armor classes weren't too high. That's why I capped defense using the armor's MDB. As it turned out, it was just a bad idea. When UA came out, with armor as DR having a base armor bonus never higher than +4, that evened things out and made it so I could just say "they stack; simple as that." Plus, since I use VP/WP (and DR from armor only protects WP damage, not VP damage) that actually balances things out overall, and makes it so nothing is over the top. The defense progressions are about two-thirds of a base attack bonus, more or less, and look like this: Lv A B C D 1 +1 +1 +3 ±0 2 +2 +1 +3 +1 3 +2 +2 +4 +1 4 +3 +2 +4 +1 5 +4 +3 +5 +2 6 +4 +3 +5 +2 7 +5 +4 +6 +2 8 +6 +4 +6 +3 9 +6 +5 +7 +3 10 +7 +5 +7 +3 ... ... ... ... ... Column A is used for fighters and other classes with the good base attack bonus. Column B is used for rogues, armored monks, and other classes with the medium base attack bonus. Column C is used for unarmored monks (and the monk's wisdom bonus to AC is halved, part going to AC and part to DR). Column D is used for wizards and other classes with the poor base attack bonus.
Xeviat-DM 03-06-04, 02:51 PM	Jack, I'm greatly considering that, but I have no desire to put a large patch on my games. The current rules assume stuff like rings of protection, amulets of natural armor, at least 8 AC from armor/dex, and enhancement bonuses (and probably shields) to keep your AC compeditive. With a +14 bonus to AC at level 20, even with the loss of 4 AC from full plate, I'm worried that ACs would become higher than the game was ment to use. What's been your experiance on this topic?
Droogie 03-06-04, 02:58 PM	Originally posted by Cathon I'm doing a world with little armor and virtually no magic items or special materials. So I've implemented a bonus AC system where everyone gets a +1 dodge bonus to AC for every 3 points of BAB. Mostly to make up for the lack of better armors, and enchantment, and to reflect that combat skill includes avoiding taking damage as well as dealing it. This probably wouldn't work in most campaigns, but I think it fits my fighter-heavy one. Nice, simple, non-invasive idea. if I were to use defense bonuses in my games, I would just make it a dodge bonus = 1/2 your BAB. Maybe 1/3 or 1/4 for games with normal to high magic content. This way, its easy to apply the defense bonus for anyone- monsters and PCs alike. As always, you can't use dodge bonuses when you are flat-footed. Nice.
Jack Daniel 03-06-04, 06:36 PM	Originally posted by Xeviat-DM Jack, I'm greatly considering that, but I have no desire to put a large patch on my games. The current rules assume stuff like rings of protection, amulets of natural armor, at least 8 AC from armor/dex, and enhancement bonuses (and probably shields) to keep your AC compeditive. With a +14 bonus to AC at level 20, even with the loss of 4 AC from full plate, I'm worried that ACs would become higher than the game was ment to use. What's been your experiance on this topic? I can't say that I have any experience on the issue, since as a rule our groups have always short-changed our players in the magic equipment department. I've never even opened the DMG to the pages on how much treasure a party is supposed to have at a given level; we've just always ad hoc'ed it; probably a holdover from AD&D. I just don't dole out much in the way of AC-enhancing items, and for some reason, most spellcasters I've run for seem to think that item creation is a waste of time, GP, and EXP, so that hasn't come up either. The only advice I can give you is careful control of magical treasure in your game.
bushido11 03-08-04, 12:06 AM	For Defense bonuses, I use the classes from the Wheel of Time RPG as a reference. I also like the idea of Armor as DR. Fighters and Paladins would get Armor Compatibility at 3rd level. However, I'm implementing that if a character were wearing armor, he would use the better of either his class defense or armor bonus to AC. - Fighters, Paladins, Sorcerers, and Wizards use the Armsman/Initiative Defense bonus chart. - Monks and Swashbucklers would use the a'gai'de'siswei's Defense bonus chart (replacing the AC bonus entry from the monk's level chart) - The rest of the standard classes would use the Noble's Defense bonus. For optional core classes and prestige classes, eyeball which Defense bonus progression most suits them. The defense bonuses shown in the Wheel of Time RPG are higher than those of d20 Modern because Wheel of Time is a more heroic-type campaign, and my D&D games are on the same scale of heroism as Wheel of Time. The idea of making your Defense Bonus equal to half your BAB, as mentioned earlier, is a very good one, too, and I like the rationale behind it (or the one I found, at least): The more skilled you are at hitting, the more skilled you are at defending. I think I might use that, plus Armor as DR, instead, whereas the AC from Armor stacks with your Defense Bonus (I find that higher level D&D characters are too easy it hit when challenged by monsters of an appropriate difficulty). Either way, I just wanted to throw in my 2 cents.