Alternative counterspelling rules [Archive] - Wizards Community

Alternative counterspelling rules [Archive] - Wizards Community

Post/Author/DateTime Post
Abulafia
03-19-05, 11:51 AM Hi all,

I was running a game about 5 months ago with 3 long-time players and one guy I'd never played with before. He was obsessed with researching new "custom" spells for his wizard, to the point that around level 9 or 10 he would not prepare any "by the book" spells. I thought this was a tremendous waste of XP, GP, and a DM's precious, precious time, but his reasoning intrigued me. He said that the counterspelling rules require opposing casters to know or have prepared the same spell he's casting to counter it. If all of his spells are his own, no one (without Improved Counterspell) could counter him!

With this in mind, I'm thinking about changing the counterspelling rules in my new campaign. Essentially, all casters would be considered to have the Improved Counterspell feat, but instead of using a spell of the SAME school as the caster, they have to use a spell of a specific OPPOSITE school. Here's my list of opposing schools:

Abjuration/Evocation (protection vs. blasting)
Divination/Illusion (reality vs. illusion)
Enchantment/Transmutation (mind vs. body)
Conjuration/Necromancy (creation vs. destruction)
Universal spells counter each other

So my questions are:

1) Does this rule look OK?

2) Should I scrap Improved Counterspell, or change its function (+4 to spellcraft for counterspelling, etc.)?

3) If I do scrap IC, should I add another prereq to Reactive Counterspell?
HailSpork
03-19-05, 12:49 PM I don't particularly see the need to make improved counterspell automatic. First of all, if the mage does nothing but customized spells for the purpose of making it harder to counter, they can still be countered by dispel magic and variants thereof, as well as disrupted by hurting him while casting.

One easy thing you can do is limit his ability to create new spells. How much time/money does it take to research a spell? (I thought it was on page 35 of the DMG or 179 of the PHB, but I can't seem to find it) Anyway, make it take a while. Afterall, it is research.
Another thought: If I research a spell called fireblast which does everything fireball does but is just a little different, it's not a new spell. Fireblast should be counterable by fireball. You could also say that Ice Ball (guess what that does) is just fireball with a built-in metamagic of cold substitution, and can therefor be countered as such. (metamagics are not taken into account when countering).

As for improved counterspell, perhaps make two feats. One counters spells of the same school, the other does opposite schools. I don't like the idea that my transmuter can't counter a transmutation spell (he's denied enchantment). Perhaps only allow any caster to only take one of the two feats?
Abulafia
03-19-05, 01:50 PM I don't particularly see the need to make improved counterspell automatic.There is no need -- I just thought it would make an interesting rule.

I don't like the idea that my transmuter can't counter a transmutation spell (he's denied enchantment).Crap. I forgot about specialists.

The difference between this rule & the regular rules is that specialists can't counter their own specialty if they don't know spells from its counterpart. First I have to ask: do I have a problem with that? It would make for a very different system of magic. I think "I have no power over her, her magic is unlike mine" makes more sense than "I have no power over her, her magic is the same as mine," so I guess I need to do something about this.

How about a feat called Specialist Counterspell that lets you counter spells with spells from the same school? Specialists would get it for free to keep things even, and others could take it at a higher level (prereq of Spellcraft 10 ranks or something). I think that would work ok.

One easy thing you can do is limit his ability to create new spells. How much time/money does it take to research a spell? (I thought it was on page 35 of the DMG or 179 of the PHB, but I can't seem to find it) Anyway, make it take a while. Afterall, it is research. I didn't want to jerk the research rules around, since they are pretty lengthy and he was playing fair by them (spending time, gp, xp, etc.). I DID start to limit his character's downtime after a while, though.

Another thought: If I research a spell called fireblast which does everything fireball does but is just a little different, it's not a new spell. Fireblast should be counterable by fireball. You could also say that Ice Ball (guess what that does) is just fireball with a built-in metamagic of cold substitution, and can therefor be countered as such. (metamagics are not taken into account when countering).I spent wayyyyyyy too much time on that campaign dealing with issues like this. How much like Fireball does a spell have to be before it can be countered with Fireball? How about more complicated spells? Is a spell that causes a rain of acid the same as Control Weather or Acid Fog? Ugh. The player and I are both attorneys, so you can imagine how these discussions played out. :banghead:

Thanks for the post!
Vatras
03-19-05, 01:52 PM Well, he is dead wrong (mostly).
Nobody, and I mean nobody, who has not a pretty clear idea about what he is going to counter this day, will ever ready an action to do it. Examples would be a cleric who knows he has to counter heal/harm by the opposition, or a wizard who knows his enemy loves to teleport away.

The standard way to counter spells is to use a form of Dispel Magic, and for this it does not matter what he casts at all, as Dispel works against any and all spells.

If someone has Improved Counterspell, which indicates that counterspelling is important to him, he will also have a selection of spell types with him to use it. In that case your player is again out of luck, because just the spelltype needs to be countered. Spellcraft allows to determine that, be it a custom spell or not. The counterspeller can then use any higher Evocation to counter his Evocations.

If someone has Reactive Counterspell, he is an advanced form of the latter type, and needs not ready an action at all. Usually classes like the Mystic Theurge or the sorcerer can be very nasty when they go this path to neutralize opposing spellcasters.

So if your player does the research only for the reason of being harder to counter he is wasting XP and gold, as it will only hinder inept casters. The usual reason for research is to get spells that are better than anything in the books or to exploit some loophole.
For the reasons above you need not change the rules for counterspelling at all, its only a matter of perspective.
(My own players never use counterspelling, because they figure that an action taken is better than an action prepared, and are usually right.)
HailSpork
03-19-05, 02:07 PM Well, instead of you worrying about it, perhaps making it so each researched spell has a flaw; some spell from the PHB can counter it, and anybody watching can figure out what it is with a successful spellcraft check. Or, make it so improved counterspell is automatic against customized spells.

Valtras, I think you're wrong. I don't see any problem with holding an action to counter. If you have dispel magic and hold to counter, if he casts magic missile, you can save your dispel magic by casting your magic missile back. If he casts a spell you don't have, you use the dispel magic.

As for the specialist part, here's another alternative. If you do the opposite countering rules, allow specialists to counter their school with their school. There's nothing wrong with the "I have power over you and vice versa", but a transmuter shouldn't hold power over a transmuter. In my case, under your system, a conjurer would have power over me since I'm also denied necromancy.
Abulafia
03-21-05, 08:35 AM So if your player does the research only for the reason of being harder to counter he is wasting XP and gold, as it will only hinder inept casters. . . . (My own players never use counterspelling, because they figure that an action taken is better than an action prepared, and are usually right.)Oddly enough, the group never got to a point where they faced a sufficiently high-level caster for counterspelling to be an issue. This particular player just had a bee in his bonnet about it.

Look, I understand that the counterspelling rules do not NEED to be changed, all right? That's why I'm posting here on the House Rules boards. I just think it would make for an interesting alternative to the standard magic system for two reasons:

1) It would encourage more counterspelling. I think mage-battles are a staple of fantasy, and would like to see more arcane battles of will.

2) It would focus attention on the different schools of magic as natural antagonists of each other -- another great fantasy staple. In fact, this might be one of the premises of the campaign world.

I think what I'll do is create a feat that lets specialists counter spells of their specialty with other spells from their specialty. Designed for 5th-level, with 8 ranks of spellcraft as a prereq.

And I think I'll remove IC as a prereq from Reactive Counterspell, and instead redesign it (with RC and 13-15 ranks of spellcraft as prereq) to allow the character to counterspell as an immediate action if he is not flat-footed.

Would that make counterspelling worth your players' time, Vatras? ;)

Post/Author/DateTime	Post
Abulafia 03-19-05, 11:51 AM	Hi all, I was running a game about 5 months ago with 3 long-time players and one guy I'd never played with before. He was obsessed with researching new "custom" spells for his wizard, to the point that around level 9 or 10 he would not prepare any "by the book" spells. I thought this was a tremendous waste of XP, GP, and a DM's precious, precious time, but his reasoning intrigued me. He said that the counterspelling rules require opposing casters to know or have prepared the same spell he's casting to counter it. If all of his spells are his own, no one (without Improved Counterspell) could counter him! With this in mind, I'm thinking about changing the counterspelling rules in my new campaign. Essentially, all casters would be considered to have the Improved Counterspell feat, but instead of using a spell of the SAME school as the caster, they have to use a spell of a specific OPPOSITE school. Here's my list of opposing schools: Abjuration/Evocation (protection vs. blasting) Divination/Illusion (reality vs. illusion) Enchantment/Transmutation (mind vs. body) Conjuration/Necromancy (creation vs. destruction) Universal spells counter each other So my questions are: 1) Does this rule look OK? 2) Should I scrap Improved Counterspell, or change its function (+4 to spellcraft for counterspelling, etc.)? 3) If I do scrap IC, should I add another prereq to Reactive Counterspell?
HailSpork 03-19-05, 12:49 PM	I don't particularly see the need to make improved counterspell automatic. First of all, if the mage does nothing but customized spells for the purpose of making it harder to counter, they can still be countered by dispel magic and variants thereof, as well as disrupted by hurting him while casting. One easy thing you can do is limit his ability to create new spells. How much time/money does it take to research a spell? (I thought it was on page 35 of the DMG or 179 of the PHB, but I can't seem to find it) Anyway, make it take a while. Afterall, it is research. Another thought: If I research a spell called fireblast which does everything fireball does but is just a little different, it's not a new spell. Fireblast should be counterable by fireball. You could also say that Ice Ball (guess what that does) is just fireball with a built-in metamagic of cold substitution, and can therefor be countered as such. (metamagics are not taken into account when countering). As for improved counterspell, perhaps make two feats. One counters spells of the same school, the other does opposite schools. I don't like the idea that my transmuter can't counter a transmutation spell (he's denied enchantment). Perhaps only allow any caster to only take one of the two feats?
Abulafia 03-19-05, 01:50 PM	I don't particularly see the need to make improved counterspell automatic.There is no need -- I just thought it would make an interesting rule. I don't like the idea that my transmuter can't counter a transmutation spell (he's denied enchantment).Crap. I forgot about specialists. The difference between this rule & the regular rules is that specialists can't counter their own specialty if they don't know spells from its counterpart. First I have to ask: do I have a problem with that? It would make for a very different system of magic. I think "I have no power over her, her magic is unlike mine" makes more sense than "I have no power over her, her magic is the same as mine," so I guess I need to do something about this. How about a feat called Specialist Counterspell that lets you counter spells with spells from the same school? Specialists would get it for free to keep things even, and others could take it at a higher level (prereq of Spellcraft 10 ranks or something). I think that would work ok. One easy thing you can do is limit his ability to create new spells. How much time/money does it take to research a spell? (I thought it was on page 35 of the DMG or 179 of the PHB, but I can't seem to find it) Anyway, make it take a while. Afterall, it is research. I didn't want to jerk the research rules around, since they are pretty lengthy and he was playing fair by them (spending time, gp, xp, etc.). I DID start to limit his character's downtime after a while, though. Another thought: If I research a spell called fireblast which does everything fireball does but is just a little different, it's not a new spell. Fireblast should be counterable by fireball. You could also say that Ice Ball (guess what that does) is just fireball with a built-in metamagic of cold substitution, and can therefor be countered as such. (metamagics are not taken into account when countering).I spent wayyyyyyy too much time on that campaign dealing with issues like this. How much like Fireball does a spell have to be before it can be countered with Fireball? How about more complicated spells? Is a spell that causes a rain of acid the same as Control Weather or Acid Fog? Ugh. The player and I are both attorneys, so you can imagine how these discussions played out. :banghead: Thanks for the post!
Vatras 03-19-05, 01:52 PM	Well, he is dead wrong (mostly). Nobody, and I mean nobody, who has not a pretty clear idea about what he is going to counter this day, will ever ready an action to do it. Examples would be a cleric who knows he has to counter heal/harm by the opposition, or a wizard who knows his enemy loves to teleport away. The standard way to counter spells is to use a form of Dispel Magic, and for this it does not matter what he casts at all, as Dispel works against any and all spells. If someone has Improved Counterspell, which indicates that counterspelling is important to him, he will also have a selection of spell types with him to use it. In that case your player is again out of luck, because just the spelltype needs to be countered. Spellcraft allows to determine that, be it a custom spell or not. The counterspeller can then use any higher Evocation to counter his Evocations. If someone has Reactive Counterspell, he is an advanced form of the latter type, and needs not ready an action at all. Usually classes like the Mystic Theurge or the sorcerer can be very nasty when they go this path to neutralize opposing spellcasters. So if your player does the research only for the reason of being harder to counter he is wasting XP and gold, as it will only hinder inept casters. The usual reason for research is to get spells that are better than anything in the books or to exploit some loophole. For the reasons above you need not change the rules for counterspelling at all, its only a matter of perspective. (My own players never use counterspelling, because they figure that an action taken is better than an action prepared, and are usually right.)
HailSpork 03-19-05, 02:07 PM	Well, instead of you worrying about it, perhaps making it so each researched spell has a flaw; some spell from the PHB can counter it, and anybody watching can figure out what it is with a successful spellcraft check. Or, make it so improved counterspell is automatic against customized spells. Valtras, I think you're wrong. I don't see any problem with holding an action to counter. If you have dispel magic and hold to counter, if he casts magic missile, you can save your dispel magic by casting your magic missile back. If he casts a spell you don't have, you use the dispel magic. As for the specialist part, here's another alternative. If you do the opposite countering rules, allow specialists to counter their school with their school. There's nothing wrong with the "I have power over you and vice versa", but a transmuter shouldn't hold power over a transmuter. In my case, under your system, a conjurer would have power over me since I'm also denied necromancy.
Abulafia 03-21-05, 08:35 AM	So if your player does the research only for the reason of being harder to counter he is wasting XP and gold, as it will only hinder inept casters. . . . (My own players never use counterspelling, because they figure that an action taken is better than an action prepared, and are usually right.)Oddly enough, the group never got to a point where they faced a sufficiently high-level caster for counterspelling to be an issue. This particular player just had a bee in his bonnet about it. Look, I understand that the counterspelling rules do not NEED to be changed, all right? That's why I'm posting here on the House Rules boards. I just think it would make for an interesting alternative to the standard magic system for two reasons: 1) It would encourage more counterspelling. I think mage-battles are a staple of fantasy, and would like to see more arcane battles of will. 2) It would focus attention on the different schools of magic as natural antagonists of each other -- another great fantasy staple. In fact, this might be one of the premises of the campaign world. I think what I'll do is create a feat that lets specialists counter spells of their specialty with other spells from their specialty. Designed for 5th-level, with 8 ranks of spellcraft as a prereq. And I think I'll remove IC as a prereq from Reactive Counterspell, and instead redesign it (with RC and 13-15 ranks of spellcraft as prereq) to allow the character to counterspell as an immediate action if he is not flat-footed. Would that make counterspelling worth your players' time, Vatras? ;)