Post/Author/DateTime	Post
Mark_Aged 09-25-07, 04:54 PM	I didn't like the language rules much, more so the language common. It's the main language of humans, so does that mean all humans are like "Hey. Weather. Nice?"? So here's some alternative language rules. The list of languages become the the following: Language Typical Speakers (Alphabet) Aboleth Aboleths (Not a written language) Abyssal Demons, chaotic evil outsiders (Infernal) Aquan Water-based creatures (Elven) Auran Air-based creatures (Draconic) Beholder Beholders (Not a written language) Celestial Good outsiders (Celestial) Common (Simplified) Almost any intellectual race (Common) Common (English) Humans, Halflings, Half-Elves, Half-Orcs (Common) Common (Japanese) Humans, Halflings, Half-Elves, Half-Orcs (Common) Common (French) Humans, Halflings, Half-Elves, Half-Orcs (Common) Common (Latin) Humans, Halflings, Half-Elves, Half-Orcs (Common) Common (Russian) Humans, Halflings, Half-Elves, Half-Orcs (Common) Common (Italian) Humans, Halflings, Half-Elves, Half-Orcs (Common) Common (Chinese) Humans, Halflings, Half-Elves, Half-Orcs (Common) Draconic Kobolds, troglodytes, lizardfolk, dragons (Draconic) Drow Sign Language Drow (Not a written language) Druidic Druids (Secret) (Druidic) Dwarven Dwarves (Dwarven) Elven Elves (Elven) Feline Catfolk (Not a written language) Formian Formian myrmarchs and queens (Not a written language) Giant Ogres, giants (Dwarven) Gith Githyanki, Githzerai (Not a written language) Gnome Gnomes (Dwarven) Goblin Goblins, hobgoblins, bugbears (Dwarven) Gol'Kaa Goliaths, Feral Garguns (Dwarven) Gnoll Gnolls (Common) Halfling Halflings (Common) Ignan Fire-based creatures (Draconic) Illumian Illumians (Illumian) Infernal Devils, lawful evil outsiders (Infernal) Kuo-Toan Kuo-toas (Not a written language) Maenad Meanads (Elven) Orc Orcs (Dwarven) Sahuagin Sahuagin (Not a written language) Slaad Slaadi (Not a written language) Sphinx Sphinxes (Not a written language) Sylvan Dryads, brownies, leprechauns (Elven) Terran Xorns and other earth-based creatures (Dwarven) Thri-kreen Thri-kreens (Not a written language) Treant Treants (Not a written language) Tuilvilanuue Raptorans (Elven) Undercommon Drow (Elven) Xeph Xephs (Common) Yuan-Ti Yuan-ti (Not a written language) Worg Worgs, Barghests (Not a written language) Common becomes Common (Simplified). Add Common (English) to every race's Bonus Languages that can already use written languages. Human's Automatic Languages become Common (Simplified) and any one other Common language from the list above. Halflings, Half-Elves and Half-Orcs also gain one Common language from the list above. Common (Simplified) is a universal language used for things such as buying or selling things (Sword. 25 Coins....No. Gold Coins. Thank You.), but if different races are meeting for something like a truce, business meeting, or something else important, they both usually learn Common (English), due to it's easy to learn and widely used nature. Any language that isn't a written language counts as a secret language. To learn a secret language, one needs to have someone who knows it teach it to you. This should take at least a month. If they can find a source of information on the language, they can study it. This should take at least a few months, and that's if they can even find anything on it, but the chances of finding a book or something about the language are highly unlikely to be found by normal means if it's secret. Ether way, if they study it enough, then they can add it to their list of Bonus Languages. You can use this method to add any language to your list of Bonus Languages that isn't already there, the only differences being that it's easier to find information about a non-secret language. All Common languages other then Common (Simplified) and Common (English) are nearly forgotten by most races other then humans, but the humans who know about them usually know them well enough to keep them alive, so humans need only half a rank (or half a point from their starting intelligent modifier at level one) to learn a Common language (this includes and Common (English)). Common (Simplified) is so easy to learn, all races need to only half a rank (or half a point from their starting intelligent modifier at level one) to learn it, and those who know Common (English) automatically know Common (Simplified). I hated that no real languages other then English existed, so I added some. I know it's not every language ever, just some. Feel free to add some more for your campaign, and add setting-specific languages to the list. I don't think it's to unbalanced, because from what I heard, everyone just picks some languages randomly and never learn any more, seeing as all the languages they'll need, they already usually know. Maybe this will make it a bit better?
ppirilla 09-25-07, 06:27 PM	it's a very good idea, and one that I've seen variations on before. I don't remember where I grabbed this, but it's my favorite that I've seen: Change Common to Human, and give every language a region. So, Language Human (The North Lands) is not the same as Human (The western desert); but nor is Elven (The high forest) the same as Elven (The east hills). Change regions to taste; every region in your campaign world need not have a flavor of every language type. Each language in the group is close enough to allow communication like what you call Simplified Common.
Rustmonster 09-25-07, 07:59 PM	I hated that no real languages other then English existed, so I added some. I know it's not every language ever, just some. Feel free to add some more for your campaign, and add setting-specific languages to the list. I don't think it's to unbalanced, because from what I heard, everyone just picks some languages randomly and never learn any more, seeing as all the languages they'll need, they already usually know. Maybe this will make it a bit better? Common is not English. For convinence sake, ALL languages in the game are the language all players speak, which is most often English. It could be anything. When your character in-game says "Hello, I'd like to eat your pickle", it doesn't neccesarily mean he is actually talking in English, it's just so the PLAYERS know. If he was talking in Draconic, the player would still talk in English. Just not the character. Because, really, who is going to make their PLAYER speak a different language just because their CHARACTER is? It's just a conveniance thing. Common in the game world is just a language that most everyone knows. It just so happens that in vanilla D&D, there is one language that many, many races all know. For some reason, all human cultures spoke it. It just happened that way. Illogical? Maybe. Simple? Yes. It makes it so, yes, I can communicate to almost everything without having to use a million skill points. Why? Because it simplifies. It also prevents something like the list you have made from being neccesary (46 languages). Yes, I know all those already exist, but from what I think you are suggesting it would go like: "Hey, do you speak Orcish? I can't understand this guy." "No, I used all my skill points on French, Italian, Russian, Latin, Japanese, and Chinese." It's all about simplicity. As a side note, why did you use real world languages? They don't usually exist in D&D. There is no France or Russia, or even England for that matter.
Mark_Aged 09-25-07, 09:29 PM	In my world there is a bunch of places that are based off of places in real life (Russha, Japan, Chnia, etc,) and I wanted a way to make people in say, a place based off Italy, speak Italian. And like you said "Illogical? Maybe. Simple? Yes.", the illogical part was just nagging at me for to long.
Mark_Aged 09-27-07, 09:28 AM	Bump.
Thakowsaizmu 09-28-07, 03:18 PM	In my world there is a bunch of places that are based off of places in real life (Russia, Japan, China, etc,) and I wanted a way to make people in say, a place based off Italy, speak Italian. And like you said "Illogical? Maybe. Simple? Yes.", the illogical part was just nagging at me for to long. Then in that case just simply have those languages. Even here on Earth those languages wouldn't all fall under "Common" because they aren't related to eachother. Some are in the same family, but there is no relation between a Sino-Tibetan language and and Indo-European one. Just have regions as was suggested, where in one area they speak one tongue and in another they speak another. Sure, in some regions there'll be a more dominant tongue, but that doesn't mean that it'll be the same tongue that dominates in another area. Also, if you are just basing these places off of those Real World places, simply give them (the lands in your world) names similar to or with the feel of those places. Call the Japanese inspired land Eraishima 偉い島 where they speak Eraigo 偉い語, call the Chinese inspired land Hong Di Guo 宏帝國 where they speak Juan hua 娟話. Nothing pulls some people out of their gaming world quicker then being told that their Elven Sorceress is heading to Leningrad to meet with the local Baron. I, too, have had problemmes with the way D&D languages work. They don't work like real languages should. So with just a wee bit of tweeking they can become far more realistic. For example, not everyone in my worlds speaks Common. Most Humans speak their Human language depending on area. Not all Elves speak Elven, that too is divided by area, sub-race and so forth. On another note, you know what I've always hated? Elemental tongues. How could a human ever learn to understand the crackling of Fire, much less what it is actually saying. The language would be one that is unpronounceable to any form of humanoid tongue (let alone trying to understand any form of culture...) and something like Fire would have no was of reproducing out vocal capabilities. I know sometimes creatures with the Earth subtype speak Terran (Huu-man!), but again with the vocal cords and all that jazz.
Mark_Aged 09-28-07, 04:43 PM	Yeah, I imagine it'd be hard to talk as fire does. Oh, and their called Common, but really should be more like Human. I called them Common because I just love the idea of using that word for languages, despite it's...questionable usage by WotC.
Thakowsaizmu 09-29-07, 11:12 PM	Yeah, I imagine it'd be hard to talk as fire does. Oh, and they're called Common, but really should be more like Human. I called them Common because I just love the idea of using that word for languages, despite it's...questionable usage by WotC. :D
Cantankerous 09-30-07, 06:59 AM	In one of my older campaigns, the Nine Worlds, I had a character, Alandera, who spoke nineteen different languages: 1)Geranos (the language of her homeland) 2)Thassai (the common tongue of her home area) 3)Galleonian (the common tongue of the southlands) 4)Morgai (a lnguage of western continental men) 5)Kalmaran (a language from the Kingdoms of Kalmar Campaign) 6)Alzehdo (a language of Calimshan, Forgotten Realms) 7)Chondathan (ditto above) 8)High Mordentish (Ravenloft) 9)Spanish (an alternate timeline Earth language) 10)Greyhawk Common (Greyhawk campaign world) 11)Velondi (ditto above) 12)Draconic (the common tongue of dragons) 13)High Grathan (the Noble Draconic Common of Good Dragons) 14)Aquan (the common summoning tongue of water entities) 15)Chaledon (the trade language of the Undines) 16)Baatorian Common (the common of the Nine Hells) 17)Chuul (Abyssal Common) 18)Arvandeese (the trade Tongue of non-Elven Arvandor) 19)Arandeese Elven (the trade Tongue of Elven Arvandor) Campaign specific Common Tongues, campaign specific racial or tribal or area tongues, sub languages among outer planar and other races, all these make perfect sense. In my game I allowed both the comprehension of the written and the spoken aspects of any language for 1/2 skill slot for literate Barbarians and everyone else and 1/3 skill slot for the spoken only component for illiterate Barbarians. It made the plethora of languages less drastic and also allowed a basic understanding of the cultures involved, as without the language directly associated with the said culture, or at least a common tongue widely accepted there, the PCs were at a -3 to all social and Knowledge skills concerning the area, while if they had more than just the common tongue ability for an area, if they spoke it's primary language, o gave them a +2 situational bonus with those skills when dealing with the locals. Isshia
aotrscommander 09-30-07, 09:37 AM	As a matter of course, I always list the languages of my campaign worlds as a matter of course. None of them are common, though there's usually a human tongue that serves a similar purpose. My least campaign world has a plethora of languages: 18 currently, plus a catch-all category called 'tribal' which is like a Craft or Profession skill pertaining to a specific tribe. Interestingly, though, there ar technically two 'common's. The langauge spoken by largest nation of the north (which is basically 'Roman') Linundin. This, coming from the badly-mangled Latin lingua (language, speech) and nundinae (trade) originated as a 'trade-speak' as it's name implied and became widespread amoung the Empire and it's closer human states as well as the most conveiniant language spoken by the nonhuman cultures in addition the their own. The second originates from the south, where the Dark Lord took over as ruler and the associated lands. The language, Kulobrak, spoken by the lizardfolk he first commanded, had become the 'evil common' tongue a is spoken (albeit very badly) by Orc and Goblins and their ilk.
Mark_Aged 09-30-07, 10:17 AM	:D Not again! I mess that up all the time... And the idea of an "Evil Common" sound interesting.
Rustmonster 09-30-07, 02:39 PM	And the idea of an "Evil Common" sound interesting. Undercommon.
Mark_Aged 09-30-07, 08:00 PM	I thought that was drow's language, not really an evil language.
ragoftag 10-01-07, 12:28 AM	Was working on some 'what is it written in' tables this AM and counted 56 'known' languages, 6 or 8 'unknown' and about 20 'lost'. I also pass out 'language' skill points each level so that new languages don't suck up all available skill points. Many of my languages have (limited) capacity in magical work. Currently, a PC is translating spells from an ancient foil tome of dwarven chantries into Draconic as spells. He just figured out that he can summon only earth elementals with one, but hasn't yet figured out how or what it will do. It makes for an interesting diversion.
Rustmonster 10-01-07, 09:27 AM	I thought that was drow's language, not really an evil language. Close enough:P
Legdiwena 10-01-07, 05:45 PM	Drow and Drow Sign Language, Undercommon is the trade language of the Lands Below
Sutemi 10-02-07, 06:28 AM	If you make more human languages than Common (which is always a good idea!), remember to first create language-families, which have their own alphabets. There usually aren't too many language-families. Languages that belong to same family, are more or less comprehensible to someone who speaks a language from the family and he definately understands the alphabets. As long you have language-families, you can always make new languages on the fly and just decide which family they belong to.
Sunblast 10-02-07, 10:01 AM	Drow and Drow Sign Language, Undercommon is the trade language of the Lands Below Drow is actually elven, right? I've never been able to find anything that says drow have a seperate language from the rest of the elves (not counting sign language, of course).
Mark_Aged 10-02-07, 10:07 AM	Drow is Undercommon.
Thakowsaizmu 10-02-07, 02:52 PM	No, Drow and Undercommon are different. Just like Elven and Common are different surface languages.
Rustmonster 10-02-07, 07:34 PM	Just a thought I had... If there are multiple human languages, why would their not be multiple elf, dwarf, gnome, giant, etc languages? That could get out of hand fast.
Mark_Aged 10-02-07, 10:45 PM	Because those races are not the same as humans. Humans are a race that adapts to any environment, learns quick, breeds fast, and dies hard. Okay, not hard, just fast, I just wanted to day that. Most DMs take all races to be like humans, but that's not true. Elves can have all elves come in a clan and corporate. If you try to make all humans do that, it will brake apart rather quick, due to humans different views. Human look to spit apart, and join with those that are the same as them. Like for example, almost all gnome will be able to live peacefully together, well humans with spilt up in to groups, just as you see live before you now. That's why there is only multiple human languages, and not multiple other race languages.
Thakowsaizmu 10-03-07, 02:19 AM	Because those races are not the same as humans. Humans are a race that adapts to any environment, learns quick, breeds fast, and dies hard. Okay, not hard, just fast, I just wanted to day that. Most DMs take all races to be like humans, but that's not true. Elves can have all elves come in a clan and corporate. If you try to make all humans do that, it will brake apart rather quick, due to humans different views. Human look to spit apart, and join with those that are the same as them. Like for example, almost all gnome will be able to live peacefully together, well humans with spilt up in to groups, just as you see live before you now. That's why there is only multiple human languages, and not multiple other race languages. So then just because they aren't human they are two dimensional? That is a little unfair to the other races. The reason that other races have only one tongue in PHB D&D is the same reason that the humans have only one tongue, it makes things easier. More realistic? Hah, no. Just easier. I mean by that logic all Evles should speak Elven, including Drow and even elves from other Planes of Existance! Infact, Elves (As they seem to be the example race here) are supposed to be Chaotic, meaning that they would be more likely to split from their main tribe and forge their own way.
Teh_username 10-03-07, 02:47 AM	No, Drow and Undercommon are different. Just like Elven and Common are different surface languages. Or, to be more specific, Undercommon is a trade-language that uses a simplified version of the Drow dialect of Elven as a base, with centuries of influence and permanently-adopted loanwords from various other speakers. Similar to how "Common" is described as being a trade-language used by many surface races, primarily the Humans - who have made it into a creole sort of language thanks to the adoption of loanwords and invention of new terms as necessary for speaking it full-time. If you want to be realistic about it, you could consider characters who know Undercommon/Common to be speaking a "tourist" version of the language, respectively; a native speaker of Drow/"Human" can understand near-everything they're saying, but the reverse is not necessarily true. It's actually covered rather in-depth (and with far more coherence!) in Races of Destiny - you know, that book you flipped through until you found the Chameleon PrC, tore out the page, and burned the rest. :P
Cantankerous 10-03-07, 03:03 AM	A well written campaign world will have dozens of different languages, a good half a dozen or so language families and sub dialects where ever they fit in. The main reason you seldom see different aspects of elven or dwarven is two fold. First these old races are supposed to be somewhat homogenized within themselves and isolationistic (with that later part being the more telling). Secondly is their relatively small populations over relatively small areas. Humans are the explorers, going everywhere there is to go and thus spreading out enough that languages mix and intermix and thence become distinctly different over time. In my own Nine Worlds campaign though we had one world where elves were populace and less isolationistic and thus we had fifteen differnt elven languages and more than two dozen dialects of the three main ones spoken. All were melodious to hear, but that was all they had in common among the big three. Usually I have a common dwarven trade tongue (what most humans think of as dwarven and what the dwarves think of simply as "common") and each major region hosting it's own distinct brand of dwarven. So often, I have as many as a dozen different dwarven languages in a given world with a "dwarven common" that serves the same function as Phoenician did in it's time. Speaking of which, on one of the Nine Worlds there are six regional variants of "Goblin" that are completely mutually unintelligible in an area not much larger than the state of Kansas. Isshia
Mark_Aged 10-03-07, 08:53 AM	So then just because they aren't human they are two dimensional? That is a little unfair to the other races. The reason that other races have only one tongue in PHB D&D is the same reason that the humans have only one tongue, it makes things easier. More realistic? Hah, no. Just easier. I mean by that logic all Evles should speak Elven, including Drow and even elves from other Planes of Existance! Infact, Elves (As they seem to be the example race here) are supposed to be Chaotic, meaning that they would be more likely to split from their main tribe and forge their own way. Unfair? Not really, less languages to learn, more beings you can talk to. And the first part of your logic-part made a good point in itself, most sub-races have their own languages, but when you get to the planes part, your just being silly.
Thakowsaizmu 10-04-07, 04:30 PM	It's actually covered rather in-depth (and with far more coherence!) in Races of Destiny - you know, that book you flipped through until you found the Chameleon PrC, tore out the page, and burned the rest. :P I actually wouldn't know. I never bothered to flip through that book after seeing to the craptacular job done on the first "Races of..." book. Unfair? Not really, less languages to learn, more beings you can talk to. And the first part of your logic-part made a good point in itself, most sub-races have their own languages, but when you get to the planes part, you're just being silly. So then we should all speak the same language? I mean less to learn, more to talk to, right? I understand why in the PHB there are so few languages. It makes things easier at the loss of realism. I just think that it is a pretty lame thing to do. And to assume that just because a Race isn't Human that they are somehow incapable of having more than one tongue lest they not be able to talk to one and other... also very lame. Most of the races in the PHB (and most of the basic concept of D&D itself) stems from Tolkien. His Elves had several languages (Quenya, Sindarin, Telerin and Nandorin just to name a few). Also, I have always felt insulted by the "Humans speak Common" thing. It seems to insinuate that we are too stupid to have more than one tongue...
Rhialto 10-04-07, 05:56 PM	... Languages that belong to same family, are more or less comprehensible to someone who speaks a language from the family and he definately understands the alphabets. bzzzt. Wrong answer. English and Swedish are in the same family, but I'm pretty sure I'd be lost if presented with a Swedish novel. And Russian and Croatian are in the same family, but use different alphabets. Ditto for Maltese and Arabic, and ditto again for Latin and Etruscan.
Mark_Aged 10-04-07, 09:15 PM	So then we should all speak the same language? I mean less to learn, more to talk to, right? I understand why in the PHB there are so few languages. It makes things easier at the loss of realism. I just think that it is a pretty lame thing to do. And to assume that just because a Race isn't Human that they are somehow incapable of having more than one tongue lest they not be able to talk to one and other... also very lame. Most of the races in the PHB (and most of the basic concept of D&D itself) stems from Tolkien. His Elves had several languages (Quenya, Sindarin, Telerin and Nandorin just to name a few). Also, I have always felt insulted by the "Humans speak Common" thing. It seems to insinuate that we are too stupid to have more than one tongue... You know I always mess up anything ending in 're? I can never spot it... Anyway, I have all the languages for the simple reason: if someone said to everyone in the world "Let all just talk in one language, it will make a lot of things easier!", I don't think your idea would get far. If you can get a small group of individuals "read: party" to agree with you, go ahead and don't learn any of those. I did kind of include them for a bit of flavour, this topics main reason was the system itself of learning languages and the like. By the way, do you like the system? The foreign real life languages aside, do you think it's a good and balanced system? And the rest of your post, and most of your other points in other posts is answer by the system, where you can learn language the are not on you Bonus Languages list. As for the other issue with other race not having multiples of their own languages is because the other common language are kind just a bit of flavour. If you want, I can come up with other elf, orc, gnome, ect. languages if it will make you happy.
INeedNoSalt 10-04-07, 10:29 PM	Is it a realistic thing to replace the simplified language list and then expect PCs who aren't of superhuman intelligence to know like twenty-five unique languages? I mean, that sounds a lot less realistic to me.
Mark_Aged 10-04-07, 10:48 PM	Is it a realistic thing to replace the simplified language list and then expect PCs who aren't of superhuman intelligence to know like twenty-five unique languages? I mean, that sounds a lot less realistic to me. Did you fail your listen check? They are not expected, just as real people are not. It's flavor. If they have to buy something in a German place, and they can't understand the guy, they can cast tongues. By the way, sorry if I sound rude, I wasn't trying. And I just really wanted to say the listen part.
Thakowsaizmu 10-05-07, 12:02 AM	You know I always mess up anything ending in 're? I can never spot it... Ah, that is pretty easy. Just think "Would you are be correct?" If yes, then it is you're. Anyway, I have all the languages for the simple reason: if someone said to everyone in the world "Let all just talk in one language, it will make a lot of things easier!", I don't think your idea would get far. If you can get a small group of individuals "read: party" to agree with you, go ahead and don't learn any of those. ... Everyone in the world speaking one language if a horrid idea for many reasons! And you are right, it wouldn't get very far. Look at Esperanto ::shudders::. The system, as long as it works for you and your group, is fine. Is it a realistic thing to replace the simplified language list and then expect PCs who aren't of superhuman intelligence to know like twenty-five unique languages? I mean, that sounds a lot less realistic to me. How does that sound less realistic? By realistic I mean Real like Here on Earth. How many languages are spoken in the world? Now how many do you speak? Why should a fantasy world be any less realistic when it comes to languages that our own world? If anything, there'd be more languages in a realistic fantasy world because there are more races. Real Humans as an example here, there are thousands of languages..., now we are adding four other non-half races from the PHB alone... See where this is going? So yes, many languages means more realistic.
Cantankerous 10-05-07, 02:31 AM	Who the hell needs realism in a game where multi ton creatures fly and breathe fire? Realism is the very anathema of RPing in this genre. If you mean greater suspension of disbeleif, then THAT is a good goal, and I think adding languages to ALL races where it makes sense to do so can only add to THAT. Isshia
Thakowsaizmu 10-05-07, 05:04 AM	Realism is the very anathema of RPing in this genre. Sorry you feel that way.
Cantankerous 10-06-07, 04:38 AM	The genre is called heroic fantasy. Realism and fantasy are polar opposites. There is a reason for that. Anyway, again, suspension of disbelief is the key. Make it REASONABLE, not realistic. Isshia
Legdiwena 10-06-07, 03:09 PM	Question: If my Int bonus at 1st lvl is more than my racial bonus languages, can I freely select languages or do I lose the extras?
Mark_Aged 10-06-07, 08:07 PM	I'd rule that normally, you lose them, but I'd say that you can get more Bonus Languages if you put in your backstory that you studied other languages, but other then that, I'd say you lose them.
INeedNoSalt 10-11-07, 09:43 PM	How does that sound less realistic? By realistic I mean Real like Here on Earth. How many languages are spoken in the world? Now how many do you speak? Why should a fantasy world be any less realistic when it comes to languages that our own world? If anything, there'd be more languages in a realistic fantasy world because there are more races. Real Humans as an example here, there are thousands of languages..., now we are adding four other non-half races from the PHB alone... See where this is going? So yes, many languages means more realistic. So... are all of your campaigns taking place in one small regional area and never involving people of varied races? Would it be fun to have to do the 'hey, look, let's play charades' thing every time you take a trip or meet an elf?
Thakowsaizmu 10-13-07, 02:02 AM	So... are all of your campaigns taking place in one small regional area and never involving people of varied races? Yes, actually. Many of them do take place in small areas of the world. However that doesn’t mean that PCs never come into contact with other Races and / or Cultures. And Characters can learn more than one language... Would it be fun to have to do the 'hey, look, let's play charades' thing every time you take a trip or meet an elf? Actually, it has lead to some very memorable Role Playing. And again, Characters can learn more than one language to begin with, plus there is this oft overlooked skill called Speak Language.
1 ton ghost 10-13-07, 02:52 PM	this has come up before both in & out of game, so nice thread btw... typically, my friends and i use Faerun and i despise Common. it makes no sense given the immense land structure, terribly long chronology, and incredible diversity of indigenous ppl. that being the case, if anything, there would be more languages and other societal aspects to further ones culturual identity. i mean, damn, look at Earth. we've had a much shorter run of things w/out the benefits in game and the languages and dialects are staggering. basically, we use regional languages, racial, etc. common might exist in a form of incredibly basic numbers and so forth for trade, but in a much lesser capacity to what is noted in game. if you don't speak chondathan (french/english maybe?) and you're in Calimsham (pseudo arabic), you're gonna' be stuck. that is, you get your home region for free and can spend languages as per normal. nothing fancy, just more realistic. this will undoubtedly be met w/ much adversity, however, i assure you, it will drastically increase RP and a further reliance on one's brain rather than one's sword. this fosters alot more creativity and ingenuity amongst PCs and actually makes Bards and high Int types more respectable/playable. the translator can be just as pivotal as the healer in many regards, sometimes moreso. scribes become more sought after and the feel is more believable.
branmakmuffin 10-21-07, 04:42 PM	The genre is called heroic fantasy. Realism and fantasy are polar opposites. There is a reason for that. Untrue. Every fiction needs a certain amount of realism, or it rapidly strays into the realm of the totally goofy. D&D has the "realism trait" that when an Elf stabs an Orc, the Orc bleeds, as a general rule. Is that "anathema" to the fantasy of D&D? Anyway, again, suspension of disbelief is the key. Make it REASONABLE, not realistic. Realism adds to reasonableness, which is any case is a matter of opinion. I'm not exactly sure what your position is on this, but I find the notion of a "Common" language that virtually all intelligent beings speak to be highly unrealistic and therefore highly unreasonable. But then I'm interested in languages. If you're not, then feel free to not burden yourself with them, but refrain from labeling it "unreasonable" if others want a more realistic implementation of languages.
Dex 10-22-07, 02:52 AM	I always found languages a moot point, because the party usually just stays within one principality/town/region. Even when they encounter other races/writing, the wizard(s) almost always have a comprehend languages up their sleeve - scrolls are useful like that. I have never played a game where understanding the natives was a key plot point, so it's a part of the game that's easily omitted.
Delfedd 10-27-07, 01:31 PM	Here's how to fix this. Give humans free one bonus language. This represents the language of their parents. Common is what they speak to communicate with the traders. There we are. It's fixed.
Mark_Aged 10-27-07, 02:14 PM	Here's how to fix this. Give humans free one bonus language. This represents the language of their parents. Common is what they speak to communicate with the traders. There we are. It's fixed. First, rude much? Second, that's almost as "fixed" as the Favoured Soul. Humans have to have a language of there own, other wise, how would the parents parents, and the parents before them, on and on and on, learned the language without knowing one first? There's a pretty low chance of that happening, if even possible. And it can't be just one person, forever passing on the knowledge, that's just plan stupid.
INeedNoSalt 10-27-07, 03:27 PM	First, rude much? Second, that's almost as "fixed" as the Favoured Soul. Humans have to have a language of there own, other wise, how would the parents parents, and the parents before them, on and on and on, learned the language without knowing one first? There's a pretty low chance of that happening, if even possible. And it can't be just one person, forever passing on the knowledge, that's just plan stupid. I don't even understand what you're trying to communicate here. Humans have to have their own racial language because it's impossible for humans to teach language to other humans?
Tsochar 10-27-07, 05:45 PM	First off, Drow speak BOTH Elven AND Undercommon, as described in Drow of the Underdark. An individual Drow might switch in the middle of a sentence if he feels one term can convey a thought more accurately than the equivalent in the language he was speaking before. And second, I would think that there would be less linguistic diversity in a world where there are races that live for much longer than humans do. Take, for example, a dwarven resident in a human village. Just one. He has lived there for 200 years. He speaks with residents on a daily basis, and his continued 'old' way of speaking manages to make its way into the common language. Imagine if everyone IRL died at 50 years old. We'd see a lot more deviations in our vocabulary. We may not use the word 'gay' to mean 'happy' anymore, and we might not interject with 'golly gee,' and we may go our entire lives without once using the word 'newfangled' but today we at least know what those words mean. Now take an elven village. 400 years, while almost long enough to make the same language into something mutually unintelligible for a human (you honestly wouldn't understand Shakespearian English unless you had already studied it), is a completely normal life expectancy for elves. There would be little linguistic difference, if any, and thus elves would likely have less variety in their languages. Humans probably likewise have to keep archaic forms of their native tongue in their minds for interracial negotiation, and of course some languages were once the same. So I would think there are fewer human languages than on Earth. In my campaign I have languages divided into families, branches and the like. A DC10 Wis check can be used to decipher the language if you know a similar language, which decreases by 1 for each week you spend in the area, and by 2 for each similar language you know. You spend skill points on language families, and then you know individual languages from that family. Elvish is one language (for the above reasons), but human tongues can differ slightly from kingdom to kingdom. If you succeed on the Wis check to decipher a familiar language five times in a row (can be attempted once per hour), you add the language to the family you know. Indo-European is too broad to be a family, but romance might be close enough. Secret languages, like Druidic, are only one, and outsider languages are constant everywhere, given that many outsiders are ageless and all. In Celestial, evil concepts are described with a strongly negative inflection, such that an evil character that tries to speak it will be uncomfortable with the hypocrisy. In Infernal, there are many inflections to nouns and verbs based upon what one stands to gain and what others stand to lose. Consequently, there are no easy ways to describe an act done for the benefit of others and not oneself. To apply a third-person particle to a first-person noun would carry some of this implication, but it would also imply that you have no logical mind and are possibly insane, and would be confusing to most native speakers. In Abyssal, there is no defined syntax of word order, and they are inflected based on the type and degree of pain inflicted on others. It is thus difficult not to speak about torture in Abyssal. If you applied a negative particle to a the torture particle of a word, it would imply masochism, rather than an absence of torture. There is no way to say you're doing something 'for' someone else, only 'to' someone else or 'on the orders which I must carry out under pain of death of' someone else. Elementals speak two languages: The 'natural' elemental languages and the 'humanized' languages, which they understand but loathe to speak and hear. They forgive the humanoids, with their woefully inadequate mouths, but still don't like how they pronounce it.
Werral 10-28-07, 08:01 PM	Tsochar I really like your ideas, it's a good point that languages might have a built in philosophy. Elvish may have no way of saying "legitimate authority" so the language is inherently biased towards chaos, while in Dwarvish the words for "coward", "traitor" and "adulterer" may be the same so there's no distinction made between the three concepts, on the opposite end, the words for "courage", "loyalty" and "Faithfulness" may alll be expressed by one word - to a Dwarf, these cncepts are one and the same. Foreign loan words may cover foreign concepts or ideas. Translations might make weird stuff happen, if a Roman in English says, "Your ugly dead" or a Spaniard says, "Touch my hen" these don't sound particularly offensive, though they are pretty harsh in their respective languages! A Dwarf may call someone a "beardless knave", which sounds laughable to an elf but is a dire insult to a dwarf. Back on the subject of a system how about a skill with ranks? 4 ranks enables you to speak fluently. A DC 16 Check let's you speak without an accent (useful for disuise) a DC15 check let's you understand a dialect - so a Yorkshireman couldn't just take ten to speak to a Californian. A DC20 Check let's you speak a related language (I speak Italian and can get a message across in French or Portuguese with some efffort, though it's not easy). Maybew that could be DC 15 for written languages. A skill trick would grant fluency in a language related to one you know (so an Italian speaker could learn Spanish as a skill trick). The advantage of this system is that players don't need to speak lots of languages, but can get by with smatterings (trying to speak to the mountain dwarf king in hill dwarf). This can lead to dramatic or comic misunderstandings.
Tsochar 10-28-07, 09:39 PM	Internet's being all wonky, sorry for the doublepost
Tsochar 10-28-07, 09:46 PM	Thank you Werral, and thank you, Sapir-Whorf Hypothesis! Instead of ranks for the languages, I would suggest a knowledge (communication) skill, possibly in place of or with synergy bonus to the Wis checks to decipher a language. I still need to tweak it a bit. Okay, here's what I've got so far: Knowledge (Communication) (int*)(You can apply your Wis modifier or your Int modifier, whichever is higher.) Regular checks: These include noises and gestures to convey ideas Communicate with someone who speaks the same language as you: DC0 Communicate with someone who knows a language similar to one you know: DC10 Communicate with someone who knows no similar languages to what you speak: DC15 Express or understand a complex idea: +5 to DC Express or understand an abstract idea: +5 to DC Target is nonhumanoid: +5 to DC Target is aberration: +10 to DC** **Replaces Nonhumanoid Checks made to add language or sublanguage to your 'languages spoken' list: These checks can be made once per hour you spend conversing with people who speak the language: Decipher a language similar to one you know: 5 DC15 checks in a row Decipher a language you some smatterings of: 5 DC20 checks in a row Decipher a language you know nothing about: 5 DC 25 checks in a row Each week spent with native speakers: -2 to DC Each week spent with native speakers who also know your language: -5 to DC Each similar language beyond the first that you know: -2 to DC If you speak only one language: +5 to DC
Eldritch_Lord 10-28-07, 10:36 PM	Rant coming; I have my own languages system which I must often defend: Is it a realistic thing to replace the simplified language list and then expect PCs who aren't of superhuman intelligence to know like twenty-five unique languages? I mean, that sounds a lot less realistic to me. First, to address the knowledge of 25 languages: How exactly do you define realistic? Let's assume for a moment that the language system as it currently exists is realistic in portraying the number of languages known if not the degree, as we're not necessarily trying to improve upon that part. A few points: --Based on the analysis here (http://www.thealexandrian.net/creations/misc/d&d-calibrating.html), most real-life people would be less than 5th level in D&D terms. --At 1st level, any character can max Speak Language and learn 2 languages. --A nonhuman character starts with 2 languages automatically, as does a human character with at least a 12 Int. How well does this match up with real life? Well, to use myself as an example, I speak English fluently and Spanish almost fluently, can speak and read Latin very well, and can communicate passably in German. I started off with "Common" (English here), took Speak Language (Spanish and Latin), and as the online ability score tests gave me >12 Int, I took German with my +1 Int mod. Assuming the online test is at least somewhat accurate, the Speak Language skill mimics real life fairly closely in terms of number of languages spoken, if not the degree to which languages are spoken fluently. Assuming a 20th-level character, who is superhuman 20 times over and at least 4 times as powerful and experienced as the greatest real-life figures, a bard (who has Speak Language as a class skill and therefore is assumed to be somewhat of a linguist) starting with Int in the normal human range (14, elite array) can have easily learned 25 languages by the end of his career. Not so unrealistic if you keep in mind that you and I are only ~1st level. In a world in which teleport and other distance-traveling and -communication magics are common, it would be very common for characters to speak several languages just like it is in our extremely-connected modern world. It is actually less realistic to force PCs to stick to one language than it is to let them broaden their abilities. To address the the "knowing" versus "understanding" 25 unique languages part: That's part of the problem that we are attempting to fix. As written, once you take that next rank in Speak Language, you are absolutely fluent. There is no room for learning a language, knowing it to some extent, or even picking up a few words so you can communicate a few simple verbs. That's what the checks to "learn a language after spending X weeks with a native speaker" and such represent; not gaining fluency, as that can take months at best and years at worst, but rather the ability to communicate clearly and get your message across. On these boards, you might mispell a cuople of wrods, or have prepositions you often end sentences with, or have a tendency to frequently split infinitives, but you "know" English enough so you and your "listener" understand. [/rant]
Werral 10-29-07, 09:14 PM	Thanks for the thanks Tsochar! Hmmm. A general communications skill could be handy but I think such communictaion would be limited - waving your arms around in front of a tri kreen might not get you very far! I like language skills but I can see that the downside might be that it would bite into your skill points. I was thinking that language skills could: A) synergise with each other (related languages only). B) Synergise with other skills, for example profession (Herbalist) and language (Gnomish) could synergise (The PHB mentions botanical texts being written in gnomish). Draconic could synergise with Spellcraft, Elvish with Use Magic Device, Dwarvish with Profession (Miner) and so forth. Any local languages or dialects would synergise with Gather Info (because your "hip", you can sound like one of the locals) and Knowledge (local). Having lots of ranks in a language could synergise with Diplomacy and Bluff in situations where a wide vocabulary is useful (ie a court of law or courtly function not negotiating with a mob). A general Communictation skill could be used to round of things so characters can get by in strange lands, but I'd limit the complexity of the ideas that can be conveyed: you can communicate stuff like, "You like big shiny rock? you want buy? 5 Gold" (and that's assuming that you have the "shiny rock" to hand) but not, "I somewhat doubt the veracity of Mordenkain's theory of enforced neutrality..." Having drawing materials or similar should grant a +2 circumstance bonus. Such a skill could synergise to give a bonus in any language skill you have ranks in (so if you have 2 ranks in Drow and 5 in communication you can communicate as someone with 4 ranks in Drow). I teach English as a foreign language so I reckon I have a few ranks in Knowledge (communication)