Post/Author/DateTime	Post
Bifford 02-27-04, 03:01 PM	The UA Spell Point system effectively allows wizards and clerics to cast spells spontaneously; sorcerors and placated by having more spell points to play with. Instead of giving wizards and clerics spontaneous casting, how about instead giving them more flexible preparation? Ie, they choose the spell combos they want to cast ahead of time, but instead prepare them within their SP limit instead of slots. This way, a wizard could prepare dozens of horrid wiltings in anticipation of fighting an army the next day, but will have no SPs left to prepare a teleport spell in case he needs to make a getaway. A sorceror, however, would be able to do both, as circumstances on the field dictate. In this way, wizards still have that "bugger, didn't see that coming" quality to them.
Kastas 02-27-04, 03:32 PM	I don't see why you couldn't do that if you really wanted to. It's somewhere in-between the default system and the UA system in flexibility. Would you still make wizards and clerics pay extra points to "pump up" their damage spells? For what it's worth, I think that wizards can still have the "bugger, didn't see that coming" problem with the UA system. If they prepare a certain combination of spells in anticipation of one problem, they might still be in trouble if they run into something else. They're still somewhat limited in the number of spells they can prepare.
Wil_Hyral 02-27-04, 03:44 PM	This strikes me as a lot of effort for a pretty minor tweak. It sounds like it's trying to appease both the pro-spell-point and anti-spell-point communities. I don't think it would successfully do either. But if it is exactly what you're going for, I think you're onto something. Basically it's like giving a druid the spontaneous "summon nature's ally" ability to the wizard except saying "you can pick the spontaneous spell line." Sounds interesting but again, I'm pretty sure your group has to want it because if they don't, it will probably just come off as really annoying.
Tarlac-Redclaw 02-29-04, 05:33 AM	i really like the spell points system and will use it in my next campaign. I agree that it does give the sorcerer the shaft because there would now be little difference between the two, so i'm getting rid of sorcerers. I love em, but honestly, using this variant, the wizard would fill his niche quite nicely. It's just hard to resist the realism of spell points (as realistic as it can get in fantasy)
DungeonlessMaster 02-29-04, 12:42 PM	This might not be quite the thread for this but... I was talking to a couple of my players and in their opinion the spell point system makes sorcerers slighlty more powerful than wizards. The logic that they presented for this was that when using spell points the wizard becomes more like an alternate version of the sorceror rather then a caster with a very differnt method and feel. Some interesting points that they brought up included: More spell points: Its right their on the books. Sorcerors still cast more spells. This wouldn't be such a big deal More spells avilable: The sorcerers known spell pool is larger or equal to the wizards spells memorizable per day up until they begin to earn 7th level spells. Now I have not really investigated the chart that hard, but at lower levels this is basically true. According to my players either of these things individually would not make the sorceror better than the wizard but taken collectively it would. They also pointed out that extra damage die deal. They really dislike that part of the spell point system. Does anybody have any ideas for a variation on that rule? Finally the way I have tried to balance wizards agianst sorcerers in my campaign world is to make effective use of the vitalizing variant. I run a Dragonlance Campaign. I decided that wizards of high sorcery (wizards) use the vitalizing variant to represent the curse of the magi. Sorcerers and other wielders of primal sorcerory do not. All spell casters are allowed to use the variant where they can attmept to cast spells with no spell points remaining, and if they fail they take damage.
Bifford 02-29-04, 02:11 PM	The SP system is taken from the Psionics Handbook. Psions also use a "mana pool", and the damage die for their offensive spells are fixed; later, the author of that book proposed a variant rule that allowed psions to boost the damage by up to 5 more die in exchange for up to 5 more power points. I think this was meant as a balancing factor for the more flexible casting. Under the SP/PP system, casters can chuck a lot more high-level damage spells.
Klytus 03-02-04, 01:13 PM	I still don't understand why it costs 5 spell points rather than 3 to cast a 3rd level spell using Spell Points. Spellcasters end up able to cast far fewer spells per day using Power Points.
keyunp 03-02-04, 06:51 PM	We use the spell point values from the (I think) 2e Spells and Magic options book. We just do a straight conversion from spell slots to spell points Spell Spell Level Points 0 1 1 4 2 6 3 10 4 15 5 22 6 30 7 40 8 50 9 60
Ulden Throatbane 03-02-04, 07:34 PM	I know a lot of people are arguing that the sorcerer isn't completely useless under the spell point system, but I simply don't buy the argument. Here's my rebuttal to the points brought up in the Sorcerer's favor: -"sorcs have more spell points": A 20th level sorcerer has 17 more spells points than a 20th level wizard. That's enough for one additional 9th level spell. Under the normal rules, a 20th level sorc could cast 2 more 9th level spells, as well as two more spells at each level. -"sorcs have more spells prepared than wizards": Not true. Look carefully at the example provided on pg 154 for how many spells a wizard can have prepared. Notice that they are adding Mialee's bonus spells for high int to the number of spells she can have prepared? This is in addition to her getting bonus spell points for having high intelligence. Meanwhile, the sorc is stuck with a static number of spells known per level. In short, a wizard with at least an intelligence of 14 (ie any wizard worth playing) is going to have at least as many spells prepared as a sorc of similar level. After 5th level, he actually has more prepared. Now lets bump up his intelligence. He has more spells prepared than the sorc does at any time in the sorc's career, except for cantrips. Add to this the fact that a wizard can swap the spells he has prepared at almost any time, while the sorcerer cannot, combined with all the other advantages wizards have, and you have pretty much all the reasons you need not to ever play a sorcerer if you are using a spell-point system.
Xeviat-DM 03-03-04, 12:29 AM	Which is definately why I would make the following changes to the preparation based spellcasters in the spell point system: No bonus slots for a high ability score Must prepare metamagic spells if you want to use them at all. Example: If you wanted a widened fireball, you would have to prepare widened fireball as one of your 5th level spell slots. Now, this gives the sorcerer a small edge. They have more spells known (though I would consider allowing them to know more spells in this situation) and have more versitile usage from metamagic spells. I'm currently considering using Spell Points myself, but it seems that the current method wasn't thought out much for the slot to point translation. Not only am I worried about the way the amount of points was determined (it follows no clear pattern and easily allows a caster to cast far too many spells of their highest level). I do not want to penalize sorcerers, so they still need some type of value over the sorcerer to make up for their short comings.
DrWorm 03-03-04, 01:32 AM	I am thinking of using this system in my newest game so I am following this thread with some interest. I am relatively new to the 3.x D&D system (though have been GMing other versions for 20 years), so I am having a tough time determining how well balanced this is. I do have a comment that I do not believe removing the bonus extra slots for high Int to be a good idea becuase one of the strengths of this rule set is that it utilizes all abbility scores better than other versions IMO. Hopefully you 3.x vets will be able to sort it out.
Ulden Throatbane 03-03-04, 09:16 AM	Originally posted by DrWorm I am thinking of using this system in my newest game so I am following this thread with some interest. I am relatively new to the 3.x D&D system (though have been GMing other versions for 20 years), so I am having a tough time determining how well balanced this is. I do have a comment that I do not believe removing the bonus extra slots for high Int to be a good idea becuase one of the strengths of this rule set is that it utilizes all abbility scores better than other versions IMO. Hopefully you 3.x vets will be able to sort it out. But giving the wizard extra spell slots effectively castrates the sorcerer. If you don't want your campaign to include the sorcerer class, than that's fine. But I think you should pass it by your players first.
Tyron 03-03-04, 05:53 PM	You are forgetting one thing in this discussion sorcerers use Charisma as primary ability score. This allows for many characters to multi class into a reasonably well sorcerer. Further more I've tweaked one thing: a sorcerer doesn't have to pay extra spell points for increasing variable damage. So the sorc remains the ultimate battle mage. I'm not to worried about wizards or sorcerers casting only high level spells, because many spell are still very functional on higher levels (for example greater invisibility). High intelligence doesn't give extra wizard spell slots only spell point, right?
FenixZero 03-03-04, 06:41 PM	OK after looking at the system presented in the UA i thought that it was an ok varant rule, but it is weaker then a version that I was thinking of before UA came out. Let me give you the main points: [list=1] A spell costs 1 + its spell level. This way 0-lvl spells aren't free. And caster gets spell points by the same token. (ie. A first lvl sor. gets 11 points 5 of 0-lvl and 6 for 1-st lvl spells ((1st lvl + 1) * 3)). The quickest way to calculate this is to add one to the spell-level and multiply it by the number of spells that they have. Metamagics increase a spells mana cost by the same amount of of spell lvl, no increase higher then 10 MP, which is a 9th lvl spell. The extra points from high casting stat are added as needed. And the Sorcerer (and Bard) can cast metamagiced spells as regular spell not a fullround action. Casters that prepare their spells prepare them within the limits of their MP. [/list=1] NOTE: If the person has an enhancement bonus to their casting stat then they should now what their MP is without the increase and with it. Thats my version, there are feats that go along with this and some boosts the sorcerer class with those feats. Don't be to harsh on my system :D. FenixZero
FenixZero 03-04-04, 08:09 AM	Forgot something in the previous post :D. The magic levels up by caster level without having to increase the mana cost. My reason for this is because the casters become better at weilding the energy (mana) through their bodies and so they can use the same amount to do more more damage. I know that this opens up some abuse be this is more realistic IMO. FenixZero
FenixZero 03-05-04, 12:28 PM	I feel so bad about doing this :bump: FenixZero
Ulden Throatbane 03-05-04, 01:52 PM	Originally posted by Tyron High intelligence doesn't give extra wizard spell slots only spell point, right? If you follow the example that is presented in the book, then the answer is no. Imo, this is completely insane, and if I was going to use a spell point system for wizards, I would completely discard the example.
Krelios 03-05-04, 02:22 PM	I still don't understand why it costs 5 spell points rather than 3 to cast a 3rd level spell using Spell Points. Spellcasters end up able to cast far fewer spells per day using Power Points. Uh, check your math, they cast FAR MORE spells per day. High intelligence doesn't give extra wizard spell slots only spell point, right? Right, so they prepare the same number for the day, but cast more spells per day--it works JUST like high Charisma does for a Sorcerer in the standard rules.
Bifford 03-05-04, 02:39 PM	The magic levels up by caster level without having to increase the mana cost. My reason for this is because the casters become better at weilding the energy (mana) through their bodies and so they can use the same amount to do more more damage. I know that this opens up some abuse be this is more realistic IMO. The UA offers a justification for the damage-boosting system on pg 154. Take a 10th-level sorceror. Without point-boosting, a 10d6 fireball matches the damage of his 10d6 cone of cold, but the fireball will be cheaper (5 SP vs 9 SP). Granted, the cone of cold has a higher save DC and can penetrate a globe of invulnerability, but that isn't very much (though I know Heighten Spell is popular among sorcs, who always try to make the most of their limited selection). This comparison would be more ambiguous under the classic slot system, as a caster would be allowed fewer 5th-level castings and worried more about opportunity costs.
Bifford 03-05-04, 03:16 PM	Uh, check your math, they cast FAR MORE spells per day. Actually, a wizard does cast fewer spells per day under SP; the trade-off being able to cast a greater proportion of higher-level spells. Ignoring bonus slots, if you converted all of the 20th-level wizard's slots into SP and added them up, it would total 324, whereas UA gives him a max of 232.
katahn 03-05-04, 03:53 PM	Spell Points: Sorcerers: d12+cha mod per level of sorcerer Wizards: d10+int mod per level of wizard Clerics: d6+wis mod per level of cleric (can wear plate, doesn't interfere with casting) Druids: d8+wis mod per level of druid (can wear leather, doesn't interfere with casting) Ranger/Paladin/Bard: d4+casting stat mod per class level with spells. Spells cost their spell level in mana to do the base damage described at the level its gained. Level 0 spells (and level 0 psionic powers) cost 1/4 spell point. Fireballl costs 3 mana to cast a 5d6 fireball for example, 4 mana to cast a 6d6 fireball, and so on, to the limit of the spell barring metamagic. All casting classes except sorcerers and bards must decide which spells they wish to memorize in advance. A spell takes 1 memorization point per spell point, fractional expenditures are allowed for cantrips. Number of available "memorization points" is equal to 1/4*(number of cantrips) + 1*(number of first level spells) + 2 * (number of 2nd level spells) and so on. Attribute bonuses affect this raw total. The final number is then divided by two. Memorization casters must prepare spells as always, but do not forget them when cast, to balance not needing to memorize multiple spells, and to provide for a meaningful differance between sorcerers and other casters, non-sorcerers must utilize careful planning and make tradeoffs in what spells they can prepare. Mana regeneration is at a fixed rate per hour equal to the casting stat modifier of the character. This is to discourage "manadumping" if an encounter is at the end of the day since the caster *knows* they will be at full mana the next day. Maximum mana, and an 18 in a casting stat, at level 20, takes *days* to fully regenerate mana. The campaign features magic items and spells that can speed it up of course, with stacking limitations to prevent casters from being overpowered or underpowered in relation to their sword-wielding counterparts. Fixed mana regeneration also means casters will need to weigh the benefits of blasting something against the need in relation to the time to regenerate the mana. Sorcerers and bards do not need to prepare metamagic enhanced spells. Having a metamagic feat, they can elect to use it or not, and simply pay the increased mana cost where appropriate. Casters who memorize spells, must memorize a spell either metamagicked or not. Clerics and druids who select domains, and thus have the option of casting non-memorized spells of that domain, do so at 1.5x normal mana cost. Fractional mana can be spent, allowing for cantrips to be cast without penalty.