Post/Author/DateTime	Post
Sigerith 12-15-05, 01:43 PM	I have been working on an alternative spellcaasting system for a while. I have generally been unhappy with the limited number of castings per day, and the very regimented power of spells, even with various MetaMagic feats as the must all be preplanned and are basically set in stone once decided on (at least for the day). I will be altering MetaMagic feats to add a DC to the Spellcasting check, but those are still in progress. The first major change is that there is now a skill associated with spellcasting. -------------------- Spellcasting (Varies; Trained Only) Description: Use this skill to cast spells, whether, Greater Path, Lesser Path, Divine, or Natural. Check: Whenever a character attempts to cast a spell, he must make a Spellcasting check. If his check total is equal to or higher than the DC, the spell is successfully cast. The time required to make a Spellcasting check is the casting time required for a specific spell, as listed in the spell’s description. The base DC of a Spellcasting check depends on the level of the spell being cast. If the check fails, the character has not managed to cast the spell. He still expends any material components required by the spell in the attempt. Spell Base Level DC 0 10 1 15 2 18 3 20 4 23 5 25 6 28 7 30 8 33 9 35 Retry: Yes. If a character fails to cast a spell, he may try to cast it again when he next has an action. Special: You may not take 10 or take 20 on Spellcasting Checks. -------------------- The basic mechanics of casting are as follows. -------------------- Magic The DC for casting any spell is computed as follows: DC = Level Base DC + MetaMagic DC + (2 x extra die of damage) When a spell is cast you take spell burn based on the level and DC of the spell. Spell burn cannot be totally negated; any spell cast will cause at least 1 point of spell burn which is treated as non-lethal damage. The amount of spell burn you receive is computed as follows: Spell Burn = 1d8 + Spell Level + ((Spell DC – Level Base DC)/3) So for instance we have a 5th level caster who has attempted to cast Fireball, a 3rd level spell and has increased the base damage from 5d6 to 7d6. Remember all damage is rounded up. The spell DC is: DC (24) = Level Base DC (20) + MetaMagic DC (0) + (2 x extra die of damage) (4) The spell burn is: Spell Burn (1d8+5) = 1d8 + Spell Level (3) + ((Spell DC – Level Base DC)/3) (2) So this caster will take somewhere between 6 and 14 points of spell burn based on the roll they make. Every caster also has a Spell Burn Resistance or SBR score. This score is computed as follows. SBR = Prime Ability Modifier + Spell Burn Resistance (Feat) Let us assume that our caster had an above average score of 16 on his prime ability which would give him a base +3 SBR and he has taken the specified feat once for an additional +1, his total SBR would equal a total of +4. You would then subtract your SBR from the total spell burn to determine how much actual spell burn is taken. You must also take into consideration your Spellcasting check when the actual spell was cast. -8 + = backfire -7 to -3 = x2 spell burn -2 to +2 = normal spell burn +3 to +7 = x ˝ normal spell burn +8 + = 1 point of spell burn If you surpass the roll by 8 or more you simply take one point of spell burn. If your roll succeeds by 3 or more but less than 8 you take ˝ the normal damage you would from spell burn. You always calculate the final amount of damage before dividing or multiplying the damage. If you pass or fail the roll by no more than 2 you receive normal dame. If your roll fails by 3 or more but fewer than 8 you receive 2 times the normal damage, computed in the same manner as ˝ damage. If you should fail your Spellcasting check by 8 or more you have suffered a backfire when trying to cast your spell. You receive spell burn which is treated as standard damage instead of non-lethal. The amount of damage is calculated as follows: Backfire = (Spell Level + 1 + ((Spell DC – Level Base DC)/3))d6 Your spell burn damage will function as non-lethal damage causing you to make limited actions at 0 HP and fall unconscious at -1 to –Con. At this point things change slightly. When –Con is reached you will be stabilized at -1 HP. If there was any remaining spell burn to apply, it now begins affecting both your Str and Con scores, lowering each by 1 for every additional point of damage you have remaining. If your Con score should reach 0, your character dies. You character will also remain unconscious for 1d6 hours regardless of any amount of healing he undergoes. Examples: So let us assume our intrepid caster is up for some demonstrations. His Spellcasting skill modifier is +11 (+8 for skill ranks, +3 prime ability modifier). And we will also assume he gets an average roll of 5 on each of his spell burn rolls for a total of 10 spell burn before his SBR is applied. He also will begin with 30 Hit Points and a Con of 10. ------------------------------ He first attempts to cast Magic Missile with 5 total missiles, which has a DC of: DC (19) = Level Base DC (15) + MetaMagic DC (0) + (2 x extra die of damage) (4) He rolls a 17 and adds 11 for his Spellcasting modifier for a total of 28. This exceeds the DC of 19 by 8 or more. He simply takes 1 point of spell burn lowering his HP from 30 to 29. ------------------------------ He attempts to cast Magic Missile again with 5 total missiles, which has a DC of: DC (19) = Level Base DC (15) + MetaMagic DC (0) + (2 x extra die of damage) (4) He rolls a 14 and adds 11 for his Spellcasting modifier for a total of 25. This is still a success and exceeds the DC of 19 by 5 or more. His spell burn is calculated as: Spell Burn (8) = 1d8 (5) + Spell Level (1) + ((Spell DC – Level Base DC)/3) (2) He has an SBR of +4 as stated before so we will take the spell burn of 8, subtract the SBR of 4 from that and then divide by 2 for a spell burn of 2. Our caster is now sitting at 27 HP (all of non-lethal damage). ------------------------------ Now he will attempt to cast a Fireball with 5d6 dice of damage (based on his level), that has a DC of: DC (20) = Level Base DC (20) + MetaMagic DC (0) + (2 x extra die of damage) (0) He rolls a 9 and adds 11 for his Spellcasting modifier for a total of 20. This is still a success and matches the DC of 20. His spell burn is calculated as: Spell Burn (8) = 1d8 (5) + Spell Level (3) + ((Spell DC – Level Base DC)/3) (0) He has an SBR of +4 as stated before so we will take the spell burn of 8; subtract the SBR of 4 for a spell burn of 4. Our caster is now sitting at 23 HP (all of non-lethal damage). ------------------------------ Now he is getting a little cocky and will attempt to cast a Fireball with 10d6 dice of damage (based on his level +5 additional dice of damage), that has a DC of: DC (30) = Level Base DC (20) + MetaMagic DC (0) + (2 x extra die of damage) (10) He rolls a 13 and adds 11 for his Spellcasting modifier for a total of 24. Which is a failure as it is 6 less than the 30 DC needed. His spell burn is calculated as: Spell Burn (12) = 1d8 (5) + Spell Level (3) + ((Spell DC – Level Base DC)/3) (4) He has an SBR of +4 as stated before so we will take the spell burn of 12, subtract the SBR of 4 and then multiple that total by 2 for a spell burn of 16. Our caster is now sitting at 7 HP (all of non-lethal damage). ------------------------------ Our caster is now backed into a corner and really only has one shot to save the party, so he is breaking at all the stops in hope of a success. He will attempt to cast a Cone of Cold with 7d6 dice of damage (based on his level +2 additional dice of damage), that has a DC of: DC (29) = Level Base DC (25) + MetaMagic DC (0) + (2 x extra die of damage) (4) He rolls a 2 and adds 11 for his Spellcasting modifier for a total of 13. Which is a failure and is 8 or more pints lowers than the 29 DC needed. His spell burn is calculated as: Backfire (8d6) = (Spell Level (5) + 1 + ((Spell DC – Level Base DC)/3) (2))d6 He has an SBR of +4 as stated before so we will take the spell burn of 8d6 with an average of 3 points of damage per die; subtract the SBR of 4 for spell burn of 20 standard damage. Our caster should be sitting at -13 HP (which has now become lethal damage). His Con score was a 10 so he can only be reduced to -10 which indicates there was 3 remaining point of damage. His current HP are increased to -1 HP total, he is unconscious but stable for 1d6 hours. His Str and Con scores are both reduced by 3 each because of the 3 remaining spell burn point. This is considered temporary damage and recovers at the normal rate. Our caster was lucky to survive and will hopefully have learned his lesson to not overextend himself so much in the future. ------------------- I would appreciate any and all feedback on this system. It has been playtested, but to a very limited extent and in a controlled environment.
JohnSnow 12-15-05, 03:55 PM	Interesting. Looks like a hodgepodge of Sword & Sorcery's "Skill-based Spellcasting" from the Advanced Player's Guide and the drain mechanic from Green Ronin's Black Company Campaign Setting (which is also skill-based, but with a brand new spell list). The skill-based spellcasting uses the exact same spellcasting DC numbers as your base table. Do you by any chance have a copy of that book or Malhavoc's Year's Best d20 (where the system was reprinted)? As far as the rest, it's an interesting idea, but inflicting subdual damage on casters is potentially quite punishing. It's an interesting idea, but will probably result in casters going unconscious a lot. Various systems for escalating the spell DC exist that might be more in line with what you're thinking of. What you really want to do is one system to keep the caster from getting out of control in a given combat. And then you need a second system to prevent a crazy amount of "out-of-combat" casting. If you're interesting in seeing a ridiculously long discussion of the subject and the tradeoffs of various balance mechanisms for magical spells, some of the Iron Heroes fans are engaging in just that subject over on the boards for that game. We didn't like the default IH magic system, so we've written about 4 new ones, with several more in the works - one of which bears some similarity to what you're talking about. You can find us by following the "Boards" link from the Iron League website: http://www.iron-league.com/ Good luck with your system!
Sigerith 12-15-05, 04:40 PM	I will check your boards out and no, don't have any of the reference books indicated. MOstly what I want is a free form spell building system with a fatigue element involved, with possible lethal consequences if you repeatdely over extend yourself.
JohnSnow 12-15-05, 06:40 PM	Mostly what I want is a free form spell building system with a fatigue element involved, with possible lethal consequences if you repeatdely over extend yourself. Well, that's pretty much what I wanted myself. Unfortunately, after 3 years of effort, I'm still working on it. Freeform magic (with a well-balanced fatigue element) is tricky. The Black Company Campaign Setting system works that way, but it has a flavor designed to emulate Glen Cook's Black Company novels, which makes it fit less well in Core D&D. In the BCCS, spells have a Base DC for a very simple effect which can be "Augmented" in a variety of ways. When you cast a spell at its base effect, it deals 1d8 points of drain as nonlethal damage. Augmented effects increase the drain. To determine the drain of an augmented spell, divide the augmented spell DC by 5, round down and add that to the base drain. So a spell whose DC is increased from 10 to 56 deals 1d8 + 11 points of additional drain (56 divided by 5 equals 11). The drain (nonlethal damage) is then reduced by the amount of "spell energy" a character has. This level of spell energy is determined by the character's "Magnitude" (Student, First, Second, Third, Fourth), and Con modifier. You can increase your Spell Energy pool by taking a feat called "Spell Energy Reservoir" (which increases it by 1 point). Each magnitude grants spell energy (Student & First 1 each, Second 2, Third & Fourth 4 each), and is gained at a given level (except for Fourth, which can only be gained through a couple very setting-specific circumstances). Spell energy can be spent to increase your casting check (at the cost of more drain - there's a table). How much spell energy you can spend is ALSO determined by Magnitude. Once you spend a point of spell energy, it's not there as a buffer against drain. Spent spell energy returns at the rate of 1 point per day. Finally, each Magnitude also grants the caster a bonus to his spellcasting skill check. As you can tell, the system is highly tied to the Magnitude concept, but other than that it's very flexible. Green Ronin is releasing a less setting specific (and more Core friendly) version of the system in a product called Advanced Sorcery, which is due out in .pdf format sometime this winter - probably next month. It might be just what you're after (and save you a lot of work).
Koga:The ninja trick 12-15-05, 06:45 PM	Cool, taking pain possibly (most likely) from casting spells seems balanced with the fact that now they are limitless. Ever heard of the hexblade? There might be something to his [Curse] feats..
Sigerith 12-16-05, 10:05 AM	JohnSnow: Thanks for all of the information. I will have to take a look at some of those systems. I like part of the black company system that you described, but because of the tie to the books the second half obvioudly would need to be modified. I will try to pick that pdf up when it comes out and see whatthey have to offer. RIght now I think my system is just a bit to comlex and convoluted as far as all of the formulas needed to determine various things. Thanks again for the input. Koga: Nope never heard of the hexblades.
Linkrulesx10 12-17-05, 09:02 AM	Well it looks like im not the only person making a new system... this one looks very good but infortunrntly i only spied it as it became my bed time but i shall read it... John,snow where can i see this free form magic system as well, since what im trying to vreate is a system where the caster can do almost anything he wants within reason but does fatigue himself...
Valoy_Muniz 12-18-05, 03:38 PM	I like this so far. I am just a little confused on the two part. DC = Level Base DC + MetaMagic DC + (2 x extra die of damage) Are you putting a diffrent dc for each meta? I say just just put the level base dc after the meta. This way a 3rd level spell with empowerment just uses the dc of a 5th level and not a 3rd. Spell Burn (1d8+5) = 1d8 + Spell Level (3) + ((Spell DC – Level Base DC)/3) (2) From your fireball example. The way I read it the spell Dc is 24 and the level dc is 20. so it would have been (24-20)/3 or 4/3. Is this a rouned up number? I like this alot but 3 thing I will do diffrent is 1) the feat gives a +1 the first time +2 the second +3 after 3 ect. So if you take the feat 3 times (losing alot of feats) it adds 6 (1+2+3) resistecant. 2) To keep soc as a valid choice give them the feat of free ever 3 level so make then still a good choice since wiz get unlimited spells. (other choice is to drop them from your game.) 3) put in that they can not try to cast a spell that would be higher then there 1/2 there level.
Sigerith 12-19-05, 12:27 PM	I am setting the various MetaMagic fetas with specific DC modifiers raher than just raising the specified level as it is easier to tabulate multiple feats being used at once since there are no X level spell slots to be memorized. Yes, I was going under the system of all fractions round up. With standard classes, having the spell burn resitsance feat having a higher modifier would probably be more appropraite, owever, the eventual system I will most likely be running over is a classless system, where every ability is purchased in a more freeform manner. This also negates the need for me to have a dedicated Sorcerer class. I have always liked the option for casters to try and pull something off greater than their base class would let them. If you have invested enough in the specific areas needed I see no reason to limit spell level. If they try to overstep their bounds too often, they will understand the potentially fatal consequences of spell burn. This also require the DM to be more involved with the spell availability in the world. The world in particular that this is designed for is a potentially higher power, but very low availablity world. I like this so far. I am just a little confused on the two part. Are you putting a diffrent dc for each meta? I say just just put the level base dc after the meta. This way a 3rd level spell with empowerment just uses the dc of a 5th level and not a 3rd. From your fireball example. The way I read it the spell Dc is 24 and the level dc is 20. so it would have been (24-20)/3 or 4/3. Is this a rouned up number? I like this alot but 3 thing I will do diffrent is 1) the feat gives a +1 the first time +2 the second +3 after 3 ect. So if you take the feat 3 times (losing alot of feats) it adds 6 (1+2+3) resistecant. 2) To keep soc as a valid choice give them the feat of free ever 3 level so make then still a good choice since wiz get unlimited spells. (other choice is to drop them from your game.) 3) put in that they can not try to cast a spell that would be higher then there 1/2 there level.
Valoy_Muniz 12-19-05, 03:06 PM	Thank you.
JohnSnow 12-19-05, 03:10 PM	JohnSnow where can i see this free form magic system as well, since what im trying to create is a system where the caster can do almost anything he wants within reason but does fatigue himself... Our system is in development on the Malhavoc press ezboard for Iron Heroes. The easiest way is to follow the "Boards" link from here. (http://www.iron-league.com/) Our development thread is the one "playing around with Elements of Magic (and Mythic Earth)." It's pretty easy to find, as it's usually one of the top 10 threads. As I write this, it's 7 pages long with 135 replies. Since I'm about to post to it, it'll be longer soon. Contributions welcome. But please actually read the thread before chiming in. We've done a LOT of kicking around of ideas. A Bulletin Board may not be the best way to design a magic system, but it seems to be working tolerably so far.
Valoy_Muniz 12-21-05, 10:29 AM	I posted a new class today on the forms. Magi (http://boards1.wizards.com/showthread.php?p=8054890#post8054890) Please let me know what you think. I took parts of it from here but changed it up some.
Xeviat-DM 12-22-05, 03:38 PM	I like where you're going, but I'm confused by a few parts. First, what part does a caster's caster level play in this casting? Does that determine the maximum dice of damage they can deal with a spell, or the base? Second, I think having spellcasting deal non-lethal damage may open up a few issues: it may be optimal for casters to do a little multiclassing if caster level is less important, in order to gain more HP (I've considered this in star wars). Third, while your system seems to work, it might be a bit complicated. That's hard for me to say, because I've been working on my alternate systems and have been doing my best to keep things simplistic. To make things easier, I first think you should abandon the multiple levels of failure and success based on your caster check. If you want multiple levels, have a roll of 1 always be a critical miss (with a big penalty), missing make you take damage but the spell isn't cast, succeeding makes you take damage but the spell is cast, and rolling a 20 lets you cast the spell and minimal damage is taken. That requires less math at the table. Other than that, your system isn't too math heavy, except how you determine the amount of damage you take. You have set DCs based on levels and that DC is increased based on what you try to do with the spell. I myself am using a mana system with a slight tie in to fatigue: when your MP reach 1/2 their maximum, you are fatigued (-2 penalty to all ability scores, which can reduce your hp, wound points, AC, attack rolls, and spell DCs; all of which can affect a caster). hen your MP reach 1/4th, you're exhausted (-6 penalty to all ability scores, and limited to a single standard or move action). MP regenerates at a rate of 1 point per level per hour, so casters have a bit more stamina throughout the day. I would like to impliment a casting check, with the player rolling a d20+prime ability score modifier+caster level. I haven't been able to determine adiquate numbers, which I want to base on the Mana cost of each spell ((spell level x2)-1). Spells can be augmented, increasing damage, targets, size, and DC, which increases their mana cost; metamagic increases mana cost as well. Thus, with everything coming back to mana, it may be best to tie mana in with the DCs (though I can't just do mana cost+10, because that links up exactly with d20+caster level; you did notice that the DCs need to scale somehow). How did you decide on the way you scaled your DCs?
Sigerith 12-22-05, 06:46 PM	I like where you're going, but I'm confused by a few parts. First, what part does a caster's caster level play in this casting? Does that determine the maximum dice of damage they can deal with a spell, or the base? Caster level determines spell variables like it does at any other time, So a 5th level caster level would receive a 5d6 fireball without modification, whereas a 7th level caster would receive a 7d6 fireball before modifications. Second, I think having spellcasting deal non-lethal damage may open up a few issues: it may be optimal for casters to do a little multiclassing if caster level is less important, in order to gain more HP (I've considered this in star wars). As I stated in one of my follo-up posts, this will be used in a classless system, so not something I am directly concerned with, but certainly something to balanace out if you were to use this syetme under a normal class system. Third, while your system seems to work, it might be a bit complicated. That's hard for me to say, because I've been working on my alternate systems and have been doing my best to keep things simplistic. This is certainly something that I am aware of. I am still working on how to balance out the damage with success/failure. How did you decide on the way you scaled your DCs? Trial and error mostly. I basically looked at what an average caster would have for a skill modifier at various levels and based the DCS around this, taking into account higher ability modifiers and various feats, they may use to boost their abilities. So I guess I just pulled it outof my ass, more or less. :) Thanks again to everyone who has commented on this.