Alternative to Skill Acquisition [Archive] - Wizards Community

Alternative to Skill Acquisition [Archive] - Wizards Community

Post/Author/DateTime Post
Germytech
08-18-05, 01:22 PM The following is a variant rule for skills and skill points. It does increase the power of all classes slightly, though I don't believe it would be in a game-breaking way. Let me know if you think this system is balanced and if you like the idea.

All skills for all classes and all characters are considered "class skills". Cross-class skills do not exist, and all ranks can be purchased on a 1-for-1 basis.
The Reason: I like skills, and in my games they have played a large part, and so I would like to have them easier to attain for everyone. Plus, the current system allows for what I see as inconsistencies. It doesn't make sense that an elf wizard gets a bonus to Listen and Spot checks, yet lags behind in those checks if he decides to invest in them.
By doing this, all classes just increased in power, some more than others by gaining additional "class skills". For instance, the wizard just gained a huge boost to skills whereas the rogue did not. To offset this, as well as to increase the amount of skills available, all classes receive one rank in every skill that is considered a "class skill". Max ranks still apply, as well as trained/untrained skills (thus, a character is automatically trained in every class skill for their class).
The Reason:These ranks can show how characters of a given class have a certain knack for certain skills, as well as balancing out having all skills available to everyone. Again, I like skill points. But instead of simply giving every class additional points to spend, I think this makes for a better, more skill oriented game for everyone.
The idea behind it is that by choosing particular classes, you are not penalized (with cross-class skills). Instead, you gain benefits (extra ranks). Variation is still maintained between the classes and you have more options. This is what I like.

What do you think?
Lord Schpungus
08-18-05, 02:10 PM I think cross-class skills and skill points per level exist for a reason, and one such reason is because a Wizard should not be good at everything. Your idea is vastly inferior to what is already in place.
weasel fierce
08-18-05, 02:37 PM If it works for you, go for it. It'll make characters a lot more competent at things, which is fine, if thats what you are after.
Germytech
08-18-05, 02:41 PM Lord Schpungus - Thank you for your input. </sarcasm>

As already mentioned in the post, I like a skill-intensive game and admit that the above system increases the power level of characters slightly. If you are not interested in this type of game, of course you wouldn't like the variant.

The wizard would not be good at everything. The wizards still only receives 2+Int skill points per level, and will still spend those points on the "necessary" skills for a spellcaster: Spellcraft, Knowledge (arcana), and possibly Concentration and the other Knowledge skills.

What this system allows is for the wizard to have true max ranks in Spot, if the player wants to. I do not believe it should be the province of only a few classes. To optimize a character, there is never a reason to invest in cross-class skills (except, maybe, prestige classes). But there are plenty of character concepts of a wizard with a high Spot bonus, or a fighter with a high Knowledge (history) bonus. I would simply like this ideas to be more viable in the game.
Germytech
08-18-05, 02:43 PM Thank you, weasel. More competent is definitely what I am after. Do you think this necessarily equates to more powerful, or unbalancing?
Lord Schpungus
08-18-05, 04:30 PM well, it really eats the rogue out because Skills are like Class Features that you get to choose. There's no reason to get rid of the class/cross-class system. If you like more skilled characters, tell them to invest in cross-class skills. It just makes sense that certain classes have certain Skill Packages.
Mind Rogue
08-18-05, 05:21 PM Lord Schpungus has a point that class skills are important features, and regardless, if you make all skills class skills for everyone, you're hurting the rogue (or at least helping him much less than everyone else).
If you want to run a skill intensive game, adding the free rank to everyone can help even out the power, since the rogue will have more of them. I definitely suggest that you only allow this for someone's first level class, or else you will have rogue/druids or something with a free rank in every single skill. Another suggestion would be reducing the first skill bonus from x4 to x3, since they essentially have that forth point already.

Another option, which I do in my campaign, is to give everyone a free skill related feat. You might choose to allow it to be skill focus or one of the +2/+2 feats, or you might want to allow Cosmopolitian or a watered-down version, which I believe originally appeared in Forgotton Realms. Cosmopolitan gives a +2 bonus in any one skill and makes it a class skill for all of their classes. You could make it simply a class skill if you dislike the skill bonus. This gives the player the option of picking something that they want to specialize in that they normally can't, without giving them the whole bushel of apples to choose from. Thus, your Elf Wizard can have spot as a class skill and maintain eagle eyes, or your swashbuckling fighter can have bluff so that he can feint well, or a multiclass character can maintain a skill through both classes, without giving drastic stereotype changes, like a wizard who can both sneak and hide while having eagle eyes.
Germytech
08-18-05, 05:32 PM I completely understand why giving all classes unfettered access to skills hurts the bard and rogue. Hence the free ranks: the rogue and bard will get plenty more ranks than other classes. I believe this solves the balancing problem.

For this specific variation, I think those were very good ideas, Mind Rogue. Both "only applies at 1st-level" and "reducing the multiplier to x3" (but keeping max ranks at level+3). Very helpful.

I have played with the "get one free class skill," but didn't quite find it to my liking. Granted, it's a good variant, but I was looking for something more.
Mind Rogue
08-18-05, 07:47 PM I guess you could even go with two new class skills. However, you start reaching the point where adding more class skills becomes irrelevent. For instance, the wizard gets 2 + Int class skills. Almost every wizard will take concentration and spellcraft, since those are almost necessary for the class to work. Also, most wizards want to take a couple knowledge skills, which starts to narrow down the skill points they have left. By this time, very few will actually want to take more than one or two skills that isn't already on their list. As for rogues, just about anything they might possibly want is already a class skill for them. Fighters often take intimidate, then one or more of the strength based skills or else handle animal and ride, leaving very little room for tumble, spot and listen, which are probably the three most usefull cross-class skills for them. In general, by the time someone's actually spent ranks on the stuff they normally want to take, they have very little left for cross class skills, so making more than one or two of them class skills is generally pointless.
Angurwald
08-19-05, 02:41 PM Personnaly I like your approach. It's a bit like what i'm using.

Like you I got rid of the class-skills. Instead I use Character Skills. At first level a player select 10 Character Skills . Intelligence bonus gives extra Character Skills and a human character has another bonus skill. A character gain another skill at every two levels.

Skill points stay the same. So a rogue will always be more skillful than a fighter altough they may have as many Characters Skills to start with.

Skills which are not Character Skills can be used but the maximum modifier for such a roll is the same as the max number for a cross-class skill using the standard rules. So a first level character (max class skill 4, max cross-class skill 2) can only add +2 to a skill roll even if his ability bonus is higher.

--A.
Paul Hopebringer
08-19-05, 03:15 PM What if you could always take 10 on class skills?
And what about giving the rogues a bonus skill feat instead of trapsense or whatever, and make searching for traps more intelligent (i.e. not stupid, like only rogues being able to see magical traps :rolleyes: ) That way, all rogues arn't pigionholed into being a trap monkey, and the ballance still preserved. Of corse, you can still have a trap monkey, but he doesn't *have* to be a trap monkey, he can branch out into other aspects of roguery, like stealing and bluffing...or using magic items...
Angurwald
08-19-05, 04:13 PM What if you could always take 10 on class skills?

I don't know. Technically that's what most people (PC or NPC) do when they have the time to do it. The Player's Guide is right on this one. Everyday use of a skill doesn't have to be rushed. You simply do it. When a monster is breathing down on your neck however things are different.

--A.
Germytech
08-19-05, 04:30 PM Like Angurwald said. Besides, I'm not looking to increase the modifers for all skills used or enabling characters to beat higher DCs. I'm looking to make more options viable for more classes.

In that sense, I completely agree with you, Paul Hopebringer. I very much dislike the rogue's trapsense ability. I think everyone should be able to find traps, as long as they have a high enough search roll (and for magic traps, I would say a spellcraft roll, too). The rogue, though should be better at it, so perhaps a +2 or +4 bonus to a search roll for traps? It's an idea.

Post/Author/DateTime	Post
Germytech 08-18-05, 01:22 PM	The following is a variant rule for skills and skill points. It does increase the power of all classes slightly, though I don't believe it would be in a game-breaking way. Let me know if you think this system is balanced and if you like the idea. All skills for all classes and all characters are considered "class skills". Cross-class skills do not exist, and all ranks can be purchased on a 1-for-1 basis. The Reason: I like skills, and in my games they have played a large part, and so I would like to have them easier to attain for everyone. Plus, the current system allows for what I see as inconsistencies. It doesn't make sense that an elf wizard gets a bonus to Listen and Spot checks, yet lags behind in those checks if he decides to invest in them. By doing this, all classes just increased in power, some more than others by gaining additional "class skills". For instance, the wizard just gained a huge boost to skills whereas the rogue did not. To offset this, as well as to increase the amount of skills available, all classes receive one rank in every skill that is considered a "class skill". Max ranks still apply, as well as trained/untrained skills (thus, a character is automatically trained in every class skill for their class). The Reason:These ranks can show how characters of a given class have a certain knack for certain skills, as well as balancing out having all skills available to everyone. Again, I like skill points. But instead of simply giving every class additional points to spend, I think this makes for a better, more skill oriented game for everyone. The idea behind it is that by choosing particular classes, you are not penalized (with cross-class skills). Instead, you gain benefits (extra ranks). Variation is still maintained between the classes and you have more options. This is what I like. What do you think?
Lord Schpungus 08-18-05, 02:10 PM	I think cross-class skills and skill points per level exist for a reason, and one such reason is because a Wizard should not be good at everything. Your idea is vastly inferior to what is already in place.
weasel fierce 08-18-05, 02:37 PM	If it works for you, go for it. It'll make characters a lot more competent at things, which is fine, if thats what you are after.
Germytech 08-18-05, 02:41 PM	Lord Schpungus - Thank you for your input. </sarcasm> As already mentioned in the post, I like a skill-intensive game and admit that the above system increases the power level of characters slightly. If you are not interested in this type of game, of course you wouldn't like the variant. The wizard would not be good at everything. The wizards still only receives 2+Int skill points per level, and will still spend those points on the "necessary" skills for a spellcaster: Spellcraft, Knowledge (arcana), and possibly Concentration and the other Knowledge skills. What this system allows is for the wizard to have true max ranks in Spot, if the player wants to. I do not believe it should be the province of only a few classes. To optimize a character, there is never a reason to invest in cross-class skills (except, maybe, prestige classes). But there are plenty of character concepts of a wizard with a high Spot bonus, or a fighter with a high Knowledge (history) bonus. I would simply like this ideas to be more viable in the game.
Germytech 08-18-05, 02:43 PM	Thank you, weasel. More competent is definitely what I am after. Do you think this necessarily equates to more powerful, or unbalancing?
Lord Schpungus 08-18-05, 04:30 PM	well, it really eats the rogue out because Skills are like Class Features that you get to choose. There's no reason to get rid of the class/cross-class system. If you like more skilled characters, tell them to invest in cross-class skills. It just makes sense that certain classes have certain Skill Packages.
Mind Rogue 08-18-05, 05:21 PM	Lord Schpungus has a point that class skills are important features, and regardless, if you make all skills class skills for everyone, you're hurting the rogue (or at least helping him much less than everyone else). If you want to run a skill intensive game, adding the free rank to everyone can help even out the power, since the rogue will have more of them. I definitely suggest that you only allow this for someone's first level class, or else you will have rogue/druids or something with a free rank in every single skill. Another suggestion would be reducing the first skill bonus from x4 to x3, since they essentially have that forth point already. Another option, which I do in my campaign, is to give everyone a free skill related feat. You might choose to allow it to be skill focus or one of the +2/+2 feats, or you might want to allow Cosmopolitian or a watered-down version, which I believe originally appeared in Forgotton Realms. Cosmopolitan gives a +2 bonus in any one skill and makes it a class skill for all of their classes. You could make it simply a class skill if you dislike the skill bonus. This gives the player the option of picking something that they want to specialize in that they normally can't, without giving them the whole bushel of apples to choose from. Thus, your Elf Wizard can have spot as a class skill and maintain eagle eyes, or your swashbuckling fighter can have bluff so that he can feint well, or a multiclass character can maintain a skill through both classes, without giving drastic stereotype changes, like a wizard who can both sneak and hide while having eagle eyes.
Germytech 08-18-05, 05:32 PM	I completely understand why giving all classes unfettered access to skills hurts the bard and rogue. Hence the free ranks: the rogue and bard will get plenty more ranks than other classes. I believe this solves the balancing problem. For this specific variation, I think those were very good ideas, Mind Rogue. Both "only applies at 1st-level" and "reducing the multiplier to x3" (but keeping max ranks at level+3). Very helpful. I have played with the "get one free class skill," but didn't quite find it to my liking. Granted, it's a good variant, but I was looking for something more.
Mind Rogue 08-18-05, 07:47 PM	I guess you could even go with two new class skills. However, you start reaching the point where adding more class skills becomes irrelevent. For instance, the wizard gets 2 + Int class skills. Almost every wizard will take concentration and spellcraft, since those are almost necessary for the class to work. Also, most wizards want to take a couple knowledge skills, which starts to narrow down the skill points they have left. By this time, very few will actually want to take more than one or two skills that isn't already on their list. As for rogues, just about anything they might possibly want is already a class skill for them. Fighters often take intimidate, then one or more of the strength based skills or else handle animal and ride, leaving very little room for tumble, spot and listen, which are probably the three most usefull cross-class skills for them. In general, by the time someone's actually spent ranks on the stuff they normally want to take, they have very little left for cross class skills, so making more than one or two of them class skills is generally pointless.
Angurwald 08-19-05, 02:41 PM	Personnaly I like your approach. It's a bit like what i'm using. Like you I got rid of the class-skills. Instead I use Character Skills. At first level a player select 10 Character Skills . Intelligence bonus gives extra Character Skills and a human character has another bonus skill. A character gain another skill at every two levels. Skill points stay the same. So a rogue will always be more skillful than a fighter altough they may have as many Characters Skills to start with. Skills which are not Character Skills can be used but the maximum modifier for such a roll is the same as the max number for a cross-class skill using the standard rules. So a first level character (max class skill 4, max cross-class skill 2) can only add +2 to a skill roll even if his ability bonus is higher. --A.
Paul Hopebringer 08-19-05, 03:15 PM	What if you could always take 10 on class skills? And what about giving the rogues a bonus skill feat instead of trapsense or whatever, and make searching for traps more intelligent (i.e. not stupid, like only rogues being able to see magical traps :rolleyes: ) That way, all rogues arn't pigionholed into being a trap monkey, and the ballance still preserved. Of corse, you can still have a trap monkey, but he doesn't have to be a trap monkey, he can branch out into other aspects of roguery, like stealing and bluffing...or using magic items...
Angurwald 08-19-05, 04:13 PM	What if you could always take 10 on class skills? I don't know. Technically that's what most people (PC or NPC) do when they have the time to do it. The Player's Guide is right on this one. Everyday use of a skill doesn't have to be rushed. You simply do it. When a monster is breathing down on your neck however things are different. --A.
Germytech 08-19-05, 04:30 PM	Like Angurwald said. Besides, I'm not looking to increase the modifers for all skills used or enabling characters to beat higher DCs. I'm looking to make more options viable for more classes. In that sense, I completely agree with you, Paul Hopebringer. I very much dislike the rogue's trapsense ability. I think everyone should be able to find traps, as long as they have a high enough search roll (and for magic traps, I would say a spellcraft roll, too). The rogue, though should be better at it, so perhaps a +2 or +4 bonus to a search roll for traps? It's an idea.