Am I overestimating the Item Familiar's power? [Archive] - Wizards Community

Am I overestimating the Item Familiar's power? [Archive] - Wizards Community

Post/Author/DateTime Post
inthesto
12-04-06, 12:59 AM I get +10% EXP, bonus skill mods, and a bonus spell slot, and that's just the immediate bonus at level 3. As I advance, I can get goodies like extra Spot/Listen checks, cheaper enhancements to whatever item the familiar is, and extra mental scores with the joyful bonus of mostly being able to ignore the Ego score.

I'm almost completely in awe of this variant feat because of the fact that most sane characters wouldn't take this feat. Sure, you lose the item, and it's a giant hit to you, but what's to stop you from taking a dose of Sovereign Glue and permanently affixing that ring to your finger? If you've got a weapon or a shield, spend the extra cash to make it adamantine.

I mean, when nearly no other feats go up in power with level, this makes the Item Familiar really stand out, and almost ridiculously so. Can anyone confirm or refute my fears as to the power level of this feat?
Chrono Nexus
12-04-06, 11:30 PM I refute them. It is a broken feat, along with .. what was it called... collegiate spellcaster?
PhaedrusXY
12-05-06, 12:14 AM It is very powerful, but as you said, if you lose it, the drawbacks are as severe. For both those reasons, I don't think it is a well-balanced feat.
Seerow
12-05-06, 12:31 AM You totally forgot the absurd boosts it gives to skills, which is the main reason I see it used in most cases.
Ikeren
12-05-06, 09:38 AM Relooking at it, I am seeing a lot of value in the ability of the item familiar to cast spells while the owner makes full round actions, using the special ability: Spell Use...it is like a free quicken, or ubering up...

Uhm, I just found something fun.

Any 10th level caster build:

Item familiar with the special ability Spell Use
Raven Familiar with a wand (and caster has 6.5 UMD ranks, +2 bonus)
Quicken Spell Feat

In round 1, the caster can cast the following:
1 fifth level spell normally
1 fifth level spell from the item familiar
50% chance of casting 1 wand spell from the raven
1 first level spell Quickened

Hahahaha, that is so going into a build...
DM142
12-06-06, 03:01 PM You are not overestimating it. I have a PC in my campaign that has a gift for exploiting any rule/feat/skill/item he comes across... and the item familiar feat was like winning the lottery for him (incedently, his familiar is an adamatine short spear).

But... its does have a significant drawback (as mentioned before). Call me vindictive... but the BBEG that the party is hunting down has undoubtedly done his research on his pursuers, and will undoubtedly find a way to exploit this critical weakness. Undoubtedly, this will include either a sneaky-rogue stealing the spear, or an NPC fighter with the Ultra-Improved, Greater Uber-Sunder feat.

Seriously, though... its WAY overpowered.
ravenshrike
12-08-06, 08:20 PM I knew there was a reason I made my item familiar a magical self-cleaning pair of undies. It takes up the belt slot, so it's perfectly legal.
gravitywell
12-11-06, 09:17 PM Could have you your adamantine coin implanted in your body so you can't lose it? Maybe just a tiny adamantine chain looped around a rib or something...or maybe a ring slide over a rib...hmmmm....I'd need a mad doctor.
Drachasor
12-11-06, 10:58 PM The Item Familiar feat is broken on many, many levels.

For one, it can grant an experience bonus. This harkens back to 2E exp bonuses for high ability scores. It's simply a bad idea. Nothing should give a character a flat experience point bonus.

The Skill bonuses are pretty troublesome too, something toned down would be better. The special abilities generally aren't too bad, but there are potential abuses.

The absolute worst thing about it though, is that it trades off big bonuses for an insane penalty. If the item familiar gets destroyed, then your character is ruined. There's no way to get the item familiar back, no way to get the experience back (other than earning it), and no way to get the last skill points back. It's a horribly misguided mechanic.

The feat needs to be totally reworked.

-Drachasor
Bookwyrm Pendraconis
12-13-06, 08:46 PM I refute them. It is a broken feat, along with .. what was it called... collegiate spellcaster?

Used correctly it's better, but it needs a watchful DM. Still, as careful as I am (I'm very good at dealing with munchkins, as I'm a bit of a rules-lawyer myself), I'd only let a trusted player use it. It's too much of a hassle otherwise. Another DM friend of mine only lets wizards and sorcerers take this feat, and then only if they give up their familiars.

As for the other feat, I assume you're referring to Collegiate Wizard, from Complete Arcane. Out of all the feats that Item Familiar might remind you of, I don't know why you came up with this, since it doesn't . Anyway, it's not broken. It grants extra spells, yes, but only for the wizard's spellbook. It makes a wizard more of a generalist, rather than a specialist (as most wizard feats do).
Chrono Nexus
12-13-06, 09:18 PM 1 feat should not grant a wizard an additional 20 spells to their spellbook over the course of a game. Sorry, but no.
Archangel62
12-14-06, 03:14 PM I refute them. It is a broken feat, along with .. what was it called... collegiate spellcaster?

Never had a problem with Collegiate spellcaster, then again it might be my players. But the issue I see with the item familiars is that they seem more like a game of nuclear escalation between DM and PC.
elonin
12-15-06, 06:50 PM 1 feat should not grant a wizard an additional 20 spells to their spellbook over the course of a game. Sorry, but no.

Guess that depends on what your party is facing. I ended up taking it due to my wizzard being so broke (spending gold on spells vs being able to spend on items etc.)
ravenshrike
12-16-06, 03:25 PM 1 feat should not grant a wizard an additional 20 spells to their spellbook over the course of a game. Sorry, but no.

Um, actually it's a total of 82+int bonus vs. 41 + int bonus. If you take elven generalist as well from RoW you get 102-122+int bonus depending on if you assume CW doubles the amount of spells you normally learn or not.
Chrono Nexus
12-16-06, 03:53 PM Guess that depends on what your party is facing. I ended up taking it due to my wizzard being so broke (spending gold on spells vs being able to spend on items etc.)
Fair enough. I can see where you are coming from.
Silverthumb128
12-18-06, 12:49 PM I haven't seen the Item Familiar's description, but could this possibly be combined with the Lich's Phylactery?
taltamir
12-22-06, 12:45 AM adamantine item familiar implanted into your skull...

the only problem with that is... if your body is destroyed and you are resurrected you are shafted. In which case you make a new character :)
The White Sorcerer
12-22-06, 11:26 AM Now I see why Sauron made that Ring of his.
Turaj
12-23-06, 01:16 AM Item Familiar with a Lich's Phylactery would be grand, and combined with the quicken spell feat, and familiar with a wand......ooo....I shudder with the possibilities. :D
Archangel62
12-23-06, 04:37 AM Item Familiar with a Lich's Phylactery would be grand, and combined with the quicken spell feat, and familiar with a wand......ooo....I shudder with the possibilities. :D

You've just given me an idea for a villian, thank you.
Silverthumb128
12-24-06, 06:29 PM Item Familiar with a Lich's Phylactery would be grand, and combined with the quicken spell feat, and familiar with a wand......ooo....I shudder with the possibilities. :D

Ah-ha, so it seems it would indeed work. And people used to call Lich worthless.
Silverthumb128
12-25-06, 01:02 PM Holy cow, I just discovered a possible new use for Item Familiar, and stop me if I'm wrong: Homunculus Familiar, like that of the Artificer. It would be treated as an item(an animated object) with a permanent magical effect, correct? So, craft the Homunculus, make it your Item Familiar, and viola, a living Item Familar.

Then, combine the Artificer's already high Intelligence with Invest Skill Points, and you can have a Homunculus Item Familiar who can become very good at one, or several skills, via Invest Skill. He could become your Lockbreaker, your Medical Aid, your Scout, whatever.

Wow, if that's true, I'm already plotting a wicked character: Mechanical Lich Warforged Artificer with a Homunculus Item Familiar. Wow. :D
taltamir
12-25-06, 11:22 PM I am pretty sure that a phylanchy cannot be a magical item (other then a phylanchy), same for homoculi, etc.

Also, an item familar is only magical as an item familar.

Now you could make some special house rules, but generally speaking those magics don't mix, and if they did they will require an extra cost (check the DMG for custom item creation).

Just as enchanting a sword with the keen enchantment will cost differently when cast on a normal sword then it would on a sword thats a +5 or somesuch.
zae
12-26-06, 02:08 AM The XP thing doesn't sit too well with me. I don't like anything that changes XP (though I understand item crafting needs it). I don't think familiar deaths should incur the loss, for instance.

With that in mind, I think the XP boost from the item is a very bad idea.

Additionally, All-or-Nothing is very poor balance. For instance, high level Wizards are too powerful, but if you take the spellbook away they lose everything. That's not really a valid weakness, because it means that very rarely, they can be completely crippled. It also explains why most psions try not to nova - because there's the burst of power (which does nothing that a moderate expenditure couldn't do most of the time, and risks getting the character banned) followed by a day of uselessness (unless it's an arena game, and you can't balance an arena game against a normal adventuring game).

So the feat sits badly. It gives you great stuff, unless it gets ruined, where you're screwed.

However, I think the skill benefits are great. Not just for the Diplomancer builds, but because Truenamers basically need it to have a chance of success. Perhaps reworking it to be less overkill, and without penalties for losing it (you know, just craft another and perform the binding rite again), while still having some nice benefits.
taltamir
12-29-06, 08:11 PM it is probably most useful for villians which are MEANT to be power and permanently destroyed by the adventurers.
Merryadocc
12-29-06, 10:20 PM It would be kewl if a party slew a BBEG with an item familiar never knowing that it was one. The end result of the owner of the item familiar dying could be that the item comes to life on it's own bearing the memories and alignment of the BBEG, thus creating an awesome cursed magic item that can continue to cause the party problems long after the BBEG is gone and dead, e.g. an elf baldesinger type character that went evil and has an item familiar longsword that he had before he turned evil and the party picks it up and walks off going "COOL, we just scored a +4 Keen Vorpal Cold Iron Long Sword, who wants it?", then watch as it has an ego battle with the palyer weilding it who then has to start lopping off peoples heads!

Now I see why Sauron made that Ring of his.
Same here, also makes me think of the Hand and Eye of Vecna, maybe he turned two of his body parts into Item Familiars (abusing the graft rules?) and Kas knew of this and hacked them off first when he slayed him!

Loving this thread, it is making me think alot.
Silverthumb128
01-01-07, 02:14 AM I am pretty sure that a phylanchy cannot be a magical item (other then a phylanchy), same for homoculi, etc.

Nothing in the entry is saying that the phylactery can't already be magical, or become magical afterwards.

THE LICH’S PHYLACTERY
An integral part of becoming a lich is creating a magic phylactery in which the character stores its life force. As a rule, the only way to get rid of a lich for sure is to destroy its phylactery. Unless its phylactery is located and destroyed, a lich reappears 1d10 days after its apparent death.
Each lich must make its own phylactery, which requires the Craft Wondrous Item feat. The character must be able to cast spells and have a caster level of 11th or higher. The phylactery costs 120,000 gp and 4,800 XP to create and has a caster level equal to that of its creator at the time of creation.
The most common form of phylactery is a sealed metal box containing strips of parchment on which magical phrases have been transcribed. The box is Tiny and has 40 hit points, hardness 20, and a break DC of 40.
Other forms of phylacteries can exist, such as rings, amulets, or similar items.

Likewise, for the Homunculus, the Item Familiar description requires the item to:
-have a permanent magical effect
-Cost 2000+ gp
-Be useable by the character

Animation of a construct is a magical effect, and thus, is a candidate for Item Familiar(assuming you've advanced the Homunculi's HD in order to meet the minimum gold requirement).

The only flaw might be how you'd define "using" the Homunculus. But, the Artificer can use the Homunculus as an assistant, as a Scout, etc, so I'd say that much would count.

That's why I think a Homunculus(and technically, any Construct) qualifies as an Item Familiar.

Post/Author/DateTime	Post
inthesto 12-04-06, 12:59 AM	I get +10% EXP, bonus skill mods, and a bonus spell slot, and that's just the immediate bonus at level 3. As I advance, I can get goodies like extra Spot/Listen checks, cheaper enhancements to whatever item the familiar is, and extra mental scores with the joyful bonus of mostly being able to ignore the Ego score. I'm almost completely in awe of this variant feat because of the fact that most sane characters wouldn't take this feat. Sure, you lose the item, and it's a giant hit to you, but what's to stop you from taking a dose of Sovereign Glue and permanently affixing that ring to your finger? If you've got a weapon or a shield, spend the extra cash to make it adamantine. I mean, when nearly no other feats go up in power with level, this makes the Item Familiar really stand out, and almost ridiculously so. Can anyone confirm or refute my fears as to the power level of this feat?
Chrono Nexus 12-04-06, 11:30 PM	I refute them. It is a broken feat, along with .. what was it called... collegiate spellcaster?
PhaedrusXY 12-05-06, 12:14 AM	It is very powerful, but as you said, if you lose it, the drawbacks are as severe. For both those reasons, I don't think it is a well-balanced feat.
Seerow 12-05-06, 12:31 AM	You totally forgot the absurd boosts it gives to skills, which is the main reason I see it used in most cases.
Ikeren 12-05-06, 09:38 AM	Relooking at it, I am seeing a lot of value in the ability of the item familiar to cast spells while the owner makes full round actions, using the special ability: Spell Use...it is like a free quicken, or ubering up... Uhm, I just found something fun. Any 10th level caster build: Item familiar with the special ability Spell Use Raven Familiar with a wand (and caster has 6.5 UMD ranks, +2 bonus) Quicken Spell Feat In round 1, the caster can cast the following: 1 fifth level spell normally 1 fifth level spell from the item familiar 50% chance of casting 1 wand spell from the raven 1 first level spell Quickened Hahahaha, that is so going into a build...
DM142 12-06-06, 03:01 PM	You are not overestimating it. I have a PC in my campaign that has a gift for exploiting any rule/feat/skill/item he comes across... and the item familiar feat was like winning the lottery for him (incedently, his familiar is an adamatine short spear). But... its does have a significant drawback (as mentioned before). Call me vindictive... but the BBEG that the party is hunting down has undoubtedly done his research on his pursuers, and will undoubtedly find a way to exploit this critical weakness. Undoubtedly, this will include either a sneaky-rogue stealing the spear, or an NPC fighter with the Ultra-Improved, Greater Uber-Sunder feat. Seriously, though... its WAY overpowered.
ravenshrike 12-08-06, 08:20 PM	I knew there was a reason I made my item familiar a magical self-cleaning pair of undies. It takes up the belt slot, so it's perfectly legal.
gravitywell 12-11-06, 09:17 PM	Could have you your adamantine coin implanted in your body so you can't lose it? Maybe just a tiny adamantine chain looped around a rib or something...or maybe a ring slide over a rib...hmmmm....I'd need a mad doctor.
Drachasor 12-11-06, 10:58 PM	The Item Familiar feat is broken on many, many levels. For one, it can grant an experience bonus. This harkens back to 2E exp bonuses for high ability scores. It's simply a bad idea. Nothing should give a character a flat experience point bonus. The Skill bonuses are pretty troublesome too, something toned down would be better. The special abilities generally aren't too bad, but there are potential abuses. The absolute worst thing about it though, is that it trades off big bonuses for an insane penalty. If the item familiar gets destroyed, then your character is ruined. There's no way to get the item familiar back, no way to get the experience back (other than earning it), and no way to get the last skill points back. It's a horribly misguided mechanic. The feat needs to be totally reworked. -Drachasor
Bookwyrm Pendraconis 12-13-06, 08:46 PM	I refute them. It is a broken feat, along with .. what was it called... collegiate spellcaster? Used correctly it's better, but it needs a watchful DM. Still, as careful as I am (I'm very good at dealing with munchkins, as I'm a bit of a rules-lawyer myself), I'd only let a trusted player use it. It's too much of a hassle otherwise. Another DM friend of mine only lets wizards and sorcerers take this feat, and then only if they give up their familiars. As for the other feat, I assume you're referring to Collegiate Wizard, from Complete Arcane. Out of all the feats that Item Familiar might remind you of, I don't know why you came up with this, since it doesn't . Anyway, it's not broken. It grants extra spells, yes, but only for the wizard's spellbook. It makes a wizard more of a generalist, rather than a specialist (as most wizard feats do).
Chrono Nexus 12-13-06, 09:18 PM	1 feat should not grant a wizard an additional 20 spells to their spellbook over the course of a game. Sorry, but no.
Archangel62 12-14-06, 03:14 PM	I refute them. It is a broken feat, along with .. what was it called... collegiate spellcaster? Never had a problem with Collegiate spellcaster, then again it might be my players. But the issue I see with the item familiars is that they seem more like a game of nuclear escalation between DM and PC.
elonin 12-15-06, 06:50 PM	1 feat should not grant a wizard an additional 20 spells to their spellbook over the course of a game. Sorry, but no. Guess that depends on what your party is facing. I ended up taking it due to my wizzard being so broke (spending gold on spells vs being able to spend on items etc.)
ravenshrike 12-16-06, 03:25 PM	1 feat should not grant a wizard an additional 20 spells to their spellbook over the course of a game. Sorry, but no. Um, actually it's a total of 82+int bonus vs. 41 + int bonus. If you take elven generalist as well from RoW you get 102-122+int bonus depending on if you assume CW doubles the amount of spells you normally learn or not.
Chrono Nexus 12-16-06, 03:53 PM	Guess that depends on what your party is facing. I ended up taking it due to my wizzard being so broke (spending gold on spells vs being able to spend on items etc.) Fair enough. I can see where you are coming from.
Silverthumb128 12-18-06, 12:49 PM	I haven't seen the Item Familiar's description, but could this possibly be combined with the Lich's Phylactery?
taltamir 12-22-06, 12:45 AM	adamantine item familiar implanted into your skull... the only problem with that is... if your body is destroyed and you are resurrected you are shafted. In which case you make a new character :)
The White Sorcerer 12-22-06, 11:26 AM	Now I see why Sauron made that Ring of his.
Turaj 12-23-06, 01:16 AM	Item Familiar with a Lich's Phylactery would be grand, and combined with the quicken spell feat, and familiar with a wand......ooo....I shudder with the possibilities. :D
Archangel62 12-23-06, 04:37 AM	Item Familiar with a Lich's Phylactery would be grand, and combined with the quicken spell feat, and familiar with a wand......ooo....I shudder with the possibilities. :D You've just given me an idea for a villian, thank you.
Silverthumb128 12-24-06, 06:29 PM	Item Familiar with a Lich's Phylactery would be grand, and combined with the quicken spell feat, and familiar with a wand......ooo....I shudder with the possibilities. :D Ah-ha, so it seems it would indeed work. And people used to call Lich worthless.
Silverthumb128 12-25-06, 01:02 PM	Holy cow, I just discovered a possible new use for Item Familiar, and stop me if I'm wrong: Homunculus Familiar, like that of the Artificer. It would be treated as an item(an animated object) with a permanent magical effect, correct? So, craft the Homunculus, make it your Item Familiar, and viola, a living Item Familar. Then, combine the Artificer's already high Intelligence with Invest Skill Points, and you can have a Homunculus Item Familiar who can become very good at one, or several skills, via Invest Skill. He could become your Lockbreaker, your Medical Aid, your Scout, whatever. Wow, if that's true, I'm already plotting a wicked character: Mechanical Lich Warforged Artificer with a Homunculus Item Familiar. Wow. :D
taltamir 12-25-06, 11:22 PM	I am pretty sure that a phylanchy cannot be a magical item (other then a phylanchy), same for homoculi, etc. Also, an item familar is only magical as an item familar. Now you could make some special house rules, but generally speaking those magics don't mix, and if they did they will require an extra cost (check the DMG for custom item creation). Just as enchanting a sword with the keen enchantment will cost differently when cast on a normal sword then it would on a sword thats a +5 or somesuch.
zae 12-26-06, 02:08 AM	The XP thing doesn't sit too well with me. I don't like anything that changes XP (though I understand item crafting needs it). I don't think familiar deaths should incur the loss, for instance. With that in mind, I think the XP boost from the item is a very bad idea. Additionally, All-or-Nothing is very poor balance. For instance, high level Wizards are too powerful, but if you take the spellbook away they lose everything. That's not really a valid weakness, because it means that very rarely, they can be completely crippled. It also explains why most psions try not to nova - because there's the burst of power (which does nothing that a moderate expenditure couldn't do most of the time, and risks getting the character banned) followed by a day of uselessness (unless it's an arena game, and you can't balance an arena game against a normal adventuring game). So the feat sits badly. It gives you great stuff, unless it gets ruined, where you're screwed. However, I think the skill benefits are great. Not just for the Diplomancer builds, but because Truenamers basically need it to have a chance of success. Perhaps reworking it to be less overkill, and without penalties for losing it (you know, just craft another and perform the binding rite again), while still having some nice benefits.
taltamir 12-29-06, 08:11 PM	it is probably most useful for villians which are MEANT to be power and permanently destroyed by the adventurers.
Merryadocc 12-29-06, 10:20 PM	It would be kewl if a party slew a BBEG with an item familiar never knowing that it was one. The end result of the owner of the item familiar dying could be that the item comes to life on it's own bearing the memories and alignment of the BBEG, thus creating an awesome cursed magic item that can continue to cause the party problems long after the BBEG is gone and dead, e.g. an elf baldesinger type character that went evil and has an item familiar longsword that he had before he turned evil and the party picks it up and walks off going "COOL, we just scored a +4 Keen Vorpal Cold Iron Long Sword, who wants it?", then watch as it has an ego battle with the palyer weilding it who then has to start lopping off peoples heads! Now I see why Sauron made that Ring of his. Same here, also makes me think of the Hand and Eye of Vecna, maybe he turned two of his body parts into Item Familiars (abusing the graft rules?) and Kas knew of this and hacked them off first when he slayed him! Loving this thread, it is making me think alot.
Silverthumb128 01-01-07, 02:14 AM	I am pretty sure that a phylanchy cannot be a magical item (other then a phylanchy), same for homoculi, etc. Nothing in the entry is saying that the phylactery can't already be magical, or become magical afterwards. THE LICH’S PHYLACTERY An integral part of becoming a lich is creating a magic phylactery in which the character stores its life force. As a rule, the only way to get rid of a lich for sure is to destroy its phylactery. Unless its phylactery is located and destroyed, a lich reappears 1d10 days after its apparent death. Each lich must make its own phylactery, which requires the Craft Wondrous Item feat. The character must be able to cast spells and have a caster level of 11th or higher. The phylactery costs 120,000 gp and 4,800 XP to create and has a caster level equal to that of its creator at the time of creation. The most common form of phylactery is a sealed metal box containing strips of parchment on which magical phrases have been transcribed. The box is Tiny and has 40 hit points, hardness 20, and a break DC of 40. Other forms of phylacteries can exist, such as rings, amulets, or similar items. Likewise, for the Homunculus, the Item Familiar description requires the item to: -have a permanent magical effect -Cost 2000+ gp -Be useable by the character Animation of a construct is a magical effect, and thus, is a candidate for Item Familiar(assuming you've advanced the Homunculi's HD in order to meet the minimum gold requirement). The only flaw might be how you'd define "using" the Homunculus. But, the Artificer can use the Homunculus as an assistant, as a Scout, etc, so I'd say that much would count. That's why I think a Homunculus(and technically, any Construct) qualifies as an Item Familiar.