Post/Author/DateTime	Post
ski309 04-01-07, 10:21 PM	I'm beginning a campaign and one of the players wants to use flaws for his character. He came up with these flaws that definitely go with his character roleplaying wise, but I don't think they're balanced. What do you all think? Insomnia Only able to sleep for 4 hours each night. This would basically deny his monk from multiclassing into spellcaster classes, and would deny him from natural healing from a full night's rest. I didn't think this was detrimental enough without some form of tiredness/fatigue rule inherent with lack of sleep. I told him to drop it or 'improve' it. Vertigo -4 on Balance and Climb checks. I'm wary of this feat because Balance and Climb checks don't come up that often. He says he based this off of the Inattentive flaw (-4 to spot and listen) but if Inattentive is a balanced flaw then this can't be balanced due to the lack of balance and climb checks in our campaigns. To make this flaw more balanced I'd have to put more balance and climb checks in the campaign, but then the group's rogue, who's sunken ranks into balance and climb, could do the job of the monk and then the monk gets a free feat. The feats I would take are: Great Fortitude Endurance
ppirilla 04-01-07, 10:36 PM	The biggest balancing point of flaws is the DM making them come up in gameplay frequently enough that they matter. As to the Vertigo flaw, if your campaign can not fit in a decent smattering of balance or climb checks, don't allow it. As for Insomnia, check out the rules for fatigue and exaustion (~DMG 300) Maybe give him a % chance of waking up well-rested v fatigued or something. (probably near 85), though I might just make him always fatigued, with a small % chance of being exausted if he's hardcore powergaming. Personally, I wouldn't allow more than one flaw per character to begin with, though
ski309 04-02-07, 10:48 AM	The biggest balancing point of flaws is the DM making them come up in gameplay frequently enough that they matter. As to the Vertigo flaw, if your campaign can not fit in a decent smattering of balance or climb checks, don't allow it. I could try to get more balance and climb checks in the campaign, but a) If the situation requires one person to do some climb & balance checks, the rogue could do them instead and b) if the entire party had to do the checks, I feel like that penalizes the rest of the party that decided not to go for flaws, and don't have the skill points available to sink into climb and balance checks. As for Insomnia, check out the rules for fatigue and exaustion (~DMG 300) Maybe give him a % chance of waking up well-rested v fatigued or something. (probably near 85), though I might just make him always fatigued, with a small % chance of being exausted if he's hardcore powergaming. I checked the rules for fatigue and exhaustion, the only words concerning sleep with fatigue and exhaustion is that 8 hours of sleep cures fatigue, and 1 hour of sleep makes an exhausted persion fatigued. It doesn't say anything about lack of sleep causing fatigue or exhaustion.I suggested he 'improve' the flaw, tho he opted not to. Personally, I wouldn't allow more than one flaw per character to begin with, thoughI definitely agree. I said the same thing, in order to make sure things stay balanced. Thanks for the input ppirilla, I needed to make sure I wasn't being too strict with my rulings on this.
Kradlo 04-02-07, 12:02 PM	Insomniac already exists: Insomniac [Flaw] Effect: In order to get a full night of rest you must succeed at a DC 15 Fortitude save. If you are sleeping and a disturbance wakes you during the night, you must make an additional save (at the same DC) to return to sleep. If you fail the Fortitude save you are fatigued when you rise in the morning. If you are fatigued when you try to sleep, you gain a +2 bonus on your save. If you are exhausted, you gain a +6 bonus. Comfortable conditions, such as those found in most inns, grant you a +4 bonus on this save. Poor conditions, such as sleeping on the ground in armor, give you a -4 penalty on this save. Even if you sleep poorly, you may prepare arcane spells as normal after 8 hours of fitful rest. (Dragon 328) Do make sure to require this Fortitude save even if the character buys a Ring of Sustenance. Don't give him a free feat for nothing. As for Vertigo, comparing Balance and Climb to Listen and Spot doesn't equate. Listen and Spot checks are made several times per game session, in virtually every game session, and make the difference between spotting (or hearing) the enemy or being caught surprised and flat-footed. At the very least, I'd impose a -6 penalty to Balance and Climb to even begin to balance them out, and include that having 5 ranks in Balance will not allow you to keep your Dex bonus to AC while balancing. Then I'd make sure that this flaw came into play on a fairly regular basis. Examples include the muddy bottom of a shallow stream underground, requiring a simple DC 10 Balance check to remain standing. Easy to do when not rushed or threatened, but during combat you can't take 10, so roll the dice and watch him go slip sliding away.
Edymnion 04-02-07, 12:53 PM	This would basically deny his monk from multiclassing into spellcaster classes, and would deny him from natural healing from a full night's rest.No it wouldn't. Neither the regaining of spells nor natural healing say that you have to SLEEP in order to gain the benefits, just that you have to rest. An elf trances for 4 hours, but still has to lounge around for an additional 4 hours to regain spells, and they heal just fine naturally with 4 hours of trance and 4 hours of loafing. A Warforged doesn't sleep at all, but still has to take it easy for 8 hours to regain spells.
ski309 04-02-07, 01:03 PM	No it wouldn't. Neither the regaining of spells nor natural healing say that you have to SLEEP in order to gain the benefits, just that you have to rest. An elf trances for 4 hours, but still has to lounge around for an additional 4 hours to regain spells, and they heal just fine naturally with 4 hours of trance and 4 hours of loafing. A Warforged doesn't sleep at all, but still has to take it easy for 8 hours to regain spells.By sleep, he meant rest. So he could never rest for more than 4 hours a night. I would hold him to the spirit of the flaw if he tried to different between sleep and rest after the fact.
Shadowhowler 04-02-07, 01:55 PM	I needed to make sure I wasn't being too strict with my rulings on this. Not hardly. If anything, it sounds to me like your player is just trying to get some free feats, and trying to optimize this by creating flaws he thinks will not impact him poorly in order to get those feats. I could be wrong tho. Does he have a very interisting story/background for why his Monk would suffer from vertigo and have insomnia? My bet is 'No" but, I'm a jaded cynical SOB. I agree with what was said before... Climb and Balance checks don't equate directly to Spot and Listen. Pretty much you can try to avoid situations that would require you to climb or balance, and, as you said, if there is a party member skilled in those areas, the character with this flaw would avoid those situations always. Plus, the Monk having 'slowfall' as a built in defence for falling, just in case the flaw ever does come up, is to me suspect. The Insomnia, ever the other flaw presented for it, are just not enough of a real drawback to the character... there would defenitly need to be some kinda fatuge based peniltie in play to allow it. Anyway, as a player and DM of over 15 years I would say fear not, you are bing more then fair.
ski309 04-03-07, 09:17 AM	I could be wrong tho. Does he have a very interisting story/background for why his Monk would suffer from vertigo and have insomnia? My bet is 'No" but, I'm a jaded cynical SOB. His character is suffering from a terminal illness that hasn't been able to be cured via mundane or magical means. The insomnia is supposed to represent him not being able to sleep due to coughing up blood and whatnot. The vertigo is supposed to represent that even though he's toughened himself agains the disease it could still cause some sort of mental fatigue when dealing with heights. The feats, endurance and great fortitude, are supposed to represent his character toughening himself against the disease. Another of his reasonings is that he feels the feats he's asking for in trade aren't great feats, so they shouldn't be accompanied by big flaws. For instance, since he's a lvl 3 monk, gaining +2 to fort saves doesn't do him much good since in 2 levels he becomes immune to disease. He also feels that endurance isn't a great feat, especially for a monk that doesn't wear armor at all, let alone while sleeping.
Millennium 04-03-07, 09:34 AM	It sounds like you normally don't use flaws at all. That's fine; they're an optional rule. I don't use them either. These particular flaws don't seem to smell quite right for exactly the reasons you mention: it sounds like a player trying to get something for nothing (or at least very little). If I'm right that you don't normally use flaws, then just be firm and continue to disallow them. That way you don't have to be confrontational about these particular flaws. If the player wants to have an insomniac character who has vertigo, that's fine: he's got an insomniac character who has vertigo. These are flavor issues, and need not have any bonuses or penalties attached.
ski309 04-03-07, 09:56 AM	It sounds like you normally don't use flaws at all. That's fine; they're an optional rule. I don't use them either. These particular flaws don't seem to smell quite right for exactly the reasons you mention: it sounds like a player trying to get something for nothing (or at least very little). If I'm right that you don't normally use flaws, then just be firm and continue to disallow them. That way you don't have to be confrontational about these particular flaws. If the player wants to have an insomniac character who has vertigo, that's fine: he's got an insomniac character who has vertigo. These are flavor issues, and need not have any bonuses or penalties attached.You're correct, we've never used them before.
CaoSlayer 04-03-07, 04:29 PM	Just make him always fatigued.
ski309 04-03-07, 09:22 PM	Just make him always fatigued.He refuses even the 50% chance of being fatigued, as it would be with Dragon magazine's Insomniac flaw.
Rhialto 04-04-07, 03:03 AM	Insomnia without fatigue is unbalanced, plain and simple. Unrealistic too.
Chimaera2000 04-04-07, 09:56 AM	This is beginning to sound like trying to score some free feats. Believe me, I can sympathize with that desire, but flaws are supposed to penalize you in a meaningful way. His Insomnia flaw doesn't seem to do that. So he wouldn't be able to multiclass into arcane spellcasting classes or get a night's worth of healing.... the first is completely irrelevant because he can take levels in other classes (which he almost certainly intended anyway) and the second is mostly irrelevant in a world with access to magical healing (such as wands of cure light wounds). The Dragon Magazine flaw is far more balanced; it provides a meaningful drawback to your character to make up for your extra feat. Vertigo is a respectable start, but it's still not balanced with Inattentive simply because Listen and Spot are far better skills. A Listen and Spot check is required for the majority of all encounters, whereas Balance and Climb are only likely to come up in a rare few. Your player might be interested in this list of new flaws. (http://boards1.wizards.com/showthread.php?t=187647) Be sure to do a once-over of any that he might pick, though.
CaoSlayer 04-05-07, 07:37 AM	The dragonīs one have the bad point of being just a DC 15 save so in later levels will be trivial to save being so a free feat. The spirit of the flaws rules is to screw the character so bad that ever an extra feat dont makes it good. And no mention to the item that grants full rest in two hours of sleeping and the ring of substenance.
cmrscorpio 04-05-07, 09:08 PM	Vertigo -4 on Balance and Climb checks. I'm wary of this feat because Balance and Climb checks don't come up that often. He says he based this off of the Inattentive flaw (-4 to spot and listen) but if Inattentive is a balanced flaw then this can't be balanced due to the lack of balance and climb checks in our campaigns. To make this flaw more balanced I'd have to put more balance and climb checks in the campaign, but then the group's rogue, who's sunken ranks into balance and climb, could do the job of the monk and then the monk gets a free feat. You are rightfully wary of this one. Spot and Listen are used ALL the time, and failing those checks often leave a character at the mercy of a sneak attack during the surprise round. I would not allow this flaw.
JustinA 04-06-07, 10:56 PM	As for Insomnia, check out the rules for fatigue and exaustion (~DMG 300) Maybe give him a % chance of waking up well-rested v fatigued or something. (probably near 85), though I might just make him always fatigued, with a small % chance of being exausted if he's hardcore powergaming. It probably wouldn't hurt to have general rules for lack of sleep: If you get less than eight hours of sleep in a night, you must succeed at a Fortitude save (DC 20 - the number of hours you slept) or become fatigued. If you get less than four hours of sleep in a night, you are automatically fatigued and must succeed at a Fortitude save (DC 20 - the number of hours you slept) or become exhausted. If a character's rest is interrupted by movement, combat, spellcasting, skill use, conversation, or any other fairly demanding physical or mental task, subtract 1 hour from the total amount of time they slept before determining if a saving throw must be made. Elves only require four hours of meditation in a night. If they get less than four hours of meditation, they must succeed at a Fortitude save (DC 20 - twice the number of hours they meditated) or become fatigued. If they get less than two hours of meditation, they must succeed at a Fortitude save (DC 20 - twice the number of hours they meditated) or become exhausted. Justin Alexander http://www.thealexandrian.net
Archtyrant Terevoth 04-08-07, 12:55 AM	Yeah, pretty uncostly flaws. Insomnia? Um.. what? If you're not a mage, why do you even care at all? That's not a flaw. In fact, it also means he's awake for 4 more hours to do other stuff. Unless you throw in there something like "permanently fatigued" or something, I really don't see how it's a flaw. As far as Vertigo, I'd add one extra thing. "Character becomes nauseated whenever flying or levitating. This condition persists for 1d3 round after the character touches the ground." Then it becomes a real flaw.
Deathmond 04-08-07, 04:32 AM	I think permanent fatigue (unless it's curable [at least on a day-to-day basis]) would be worth more than a single feat. I'm pretty sure there is already a flaw to take a -2 to a stat, and fatigue would be a -2 to two stats.
Count Arioch the 28th 04-08-07, 02:44 PM	Personally, I would allow it. Sure, the flaws he wants are irrelevant, but so are the feats he wants.
mythSSK 04-08-07, 06:11 PM	Personally, I would allow it. Sure, the flaws he wants are irrelevant, but so are the feats he wants.My thoughts exactly. It's not like he wants feats that are actually any good. Weaker than normal flaws, sure, but weaker than normal feats, too.
CaoSlayer 04-09-07, 03:28 PM	I think permanent fatigue (unless it's curable [at least on a day-to-day basis]) would be worth more than a single feat. I'm pretty sure there is already a flaw to take a -2 to a stat, and fatigue would be a -2 to two stats. Oh, you are right, I didnt knew the exact effects of fatigue. A diary 50% chance to be fatigued would be balanced as one feat or make that the character needs twice the amount of rest of a normal person, that is 16 hours of rest or both. Actually fatigue would be ever nastier that two -2 to stat flaws because dont allows you to run and so.
Lanky Ogre Baggy Pants 04-09-07, 04:49 PM	My thoughts exactly. It's not like he wants feats that are actually any good. Weaker than normal flaws, sure, but weaker than normal feats, too. I'll throw my agreement on this side. If he was trying to get strong feats for the flaws then it may sound like he is trying to get free feats, but he's only trying to get Great Fortitude and Endurance, which are pretty subpar feats. +2 fort save can be beneficial, but he already has a good fort save. just my 2 cp.
Mystic Theurge 04-09-07, 08:29 PM	I would make insomnia like this: After each attempt to sleep, the character must make a DC 10 CON check. If the check fails, the character is fatigued. The character, of course, will continue to be fatigued unless he is able to get 8 hours of sleep or has the effect cured (as in lesser restoration). Because the character is an insomniac, I would apply a -1 penalty for each successful con check; eventually, the character will be fatigued. If the character is already fatigued, he must succeed at another DC 10 con check to get a full night's rest. Failure by 5 or more makes the character exhausted. An exhausted character should be able to do an automatic reset on the next night or the next opportunity to sleep. After all, even an insomniac is able to get a full night's rest once in a while. It's just sporatic.
trapspringer 04-09-07, 08:59 PM	I think his insomniac flaw is a little weak, but it's no weaker than the Dragon version. DC 15? Psh. Although, at least with the Dragon version his feat directly counters the flaw, netting him a bad trade. Insomnia for Endurance is a go, provided he will take the dragon version. If not, too damn bad. His version doesn't penalize enough. No natural healing in a game where clerics and heal-monkeys are common isn't a big deal, especially since monks gain an ability that allows them to heal themselves (IIRC). Vertigo would be a viable in a game based on the side of a mountain. It sounds more like the downside of a trait. It doesn't work under my idea of a flaw.
EvilDeathBee 04-20-07, 06:05 PM	Sorry to sound unintelligent, but what is the point of flaws?
Leress 04-20-07, 06:31 PM	Sorry to sound unintelligent, but what is the point of flaws? To get more feats :P
trapspringer 04-20-07, 11:48 PM	Sorry to sound unintelligent, but what is the point of flaws? To increase your options during character creation.
FriendlyBiscuit 04-21-07, 04:33 AM	If the rogue has sunk ranks into balance and climb, I'd try to include those checks just for the rogue's sake. Balance and Climb aren't "the monk's job" or "the rogue's job"; balance and climb are situational skill checks that come up when the terrain merits it. Certain terrain can't be charged across unless you make a balance check. If your party adventures in a bunch of different places, such terrain should come up occasionally. Tropical storms of tremendous size might incur balance checks as well, but I think it's actually treated as a bull-rush or a fort save. Read your DMG; there's some good, interesting stuff in there besides EXP and loot. If you place a big piece of treasure across a chasm that the party decides to span by using a rope and grappling hook, then there's a balance check. If not, hopefully someone can cast Fly. If, after crossing the chasm by rope, the treasure is 40' up a craggy rock face, then there's a Climb check for anyone who hasn't got Fly. Throw the rogue a bone - make him feel useful. :) My 2 cents.
EvilDeathBee 04-21-07, 06:57 PM	To increase your options during character creation. Thanks much, and sorry for the brain lapse.
EvilDeathBee 04-21-07, 08:30 PM	Sorry for the stupidness again, but where are the rules for flaws, or are they purely house rules? *edit* Extra sorry for the double post.
Shadowhowler 04-22-07, 04:07 AM	Sorry for the stupidness again, but where are the rules for flaws, or are they purely house rules? Flaws appear as a varriant option in the Unearthed Arcana. They also have something called 'traits'... which are like mini flaws with equal benifits, normaly very minor.
trapspringer 04-22-07, 02:22 PM	Sorry for the stupidness again, but where are the rules for flaws, or are they purely house rules? *edit* Extra sorry for the double post. The SRD is linked in my sig. Flaws, Traits, and numerous additional variant rules are available for free public use.
jeffepp 04-26-07, 08:20 PM	In my opinoin, flaws and traits should fit the character, and encourage RPing. I made a character that used two flaws, one each from some of the Dragon "Flaws for..." articles. The character is a desert elf (UA) sorcerer, and the flaws were "Hot Blooded" (Flaws for Rangers - increased vulnerability to cold), and "Arcane Performer" (Flaws for Bards - must succeed a preform check to cast a spell). Each flaw fit in with the nature of the character, have substantial effects on play, and none of the penalties are countered by any other mechanic. If the player just wants a free feat, but doesn't want the penalties, feel free to put the kibosh on it. A flaw should be a penalty of some sort, as it is paying for a feat.
ravenshrike 04-26-07, 09:25 PM	Insomnia without fatigue is unbalanced, plain and simple. Unrealistic too. ? I know several insomniacs, and except at the end of the day, when most people normally go to sleep, they can function perfectly fine. Hell, there are people that don't sleep at all and still function, although they are exceedingly rare.
Rhialto 05-01-07, 03:46 PM	? I know several insomniacs, and except at the end of the day, when most people normally go to sleep, they can function perfectly fine. Hell, there are people that don't sleep at all and still function, although they are exceedingly rare. In their cases, what they have isn't really a flaw though, is it?