An excerpt from my tome of house rules [Archive] - Wizards Community

An excerpt from my tome of house rules [Archive] - Wizards Community

Post/Author/DateTime Post
Pizzini3000
08-13-06, 12:05 AM This is a houserule I use. I like it. I think it puts more customization in the hands of the players.
It also got me thinking, could I take this further, and remove the default feats gained every level and turn it into skill point expenditures? Beyond that, Could I turn my game into a big classless system where skill points got everything, including "class" abilities?

more than anythign i'm posting this to learn of other's insight into my idea.

I. Skills
a. All characters gain one additional skill point per level (4 at first).
b. The minimum number of skill points gained per level is 2.
c. Added
i. Strength
1. used for strength checks
2. The Strength ability score innately increases by 1 at 7 ranks and every four ranks after. (7, 11, 15…)
ii. Dexterity
1. used for dexterity checks
2. The Dexterity ability score innately increases by 1 at 7 ranks and every four ranks after. (7, 11, 15…)
iii. Constitution
1. used for constitution checks
2. The Constitution ability score innately increases by 1 at 7 ranks and every four ranks after. (7, 11, 15…)
iv. Intelligence
1. used for intelligence checks
2. The intelligence ability score innately increases by 1 at 7 ranks and every four ranks after. (7, 11, 15…)
v. Wisdom
1. used for wisdom checks
2. The wisdom ability score innately increases by 1 at 7 ranks and every four ranks after. (7, 11, 15…)
vi. Charisma
1. used for charisma checks
2. The charisma ability score innately increases by 1 at 7 ranks and every four ranks after. (7, 11, 15…)
II. Ability Scores
a. Characters do not gain additional Ability Score points at levels 4, 8, 12, and etc.

Summary: Characters no longer gain an inherant ability score boost at levels 4, 8, 12, and etc. Rather, they gain an additional skill point a level (4 at first), the minimum skill points per level be raised to two, and players spend skill points on ability scores. They uses these new "Ability Skills" as their Ability checks (such as for a strength check.). These ability skills get no bonus for their skills checks, just the characters ranks.

My reasoning behind this is to allow players to express their training as skills or abilities. It makes sense for someone who is smart enough (has extra skill points from a high intelligence score) to know how to optimize their weight training and stretching.

Note: This system does not let any one ability score increase at a rate faster than what is setup in the core rules.
PoeticJustice
08-13-06, 12:41 AM Dangerous. What if I'm a Rogue with 7 ranks in Craft, Profession, Perform, Tumble, Climb, and concentrate? Does every stat go up? What happens if I've got 7 ranks in Climb and Jump? Does my stat go up by two?
Insane skill checks won't break D&D if you rule that certain feats are impossible, but innately giving a wizard a +6 to her INT score per four levels might.
Tenzhi
08-13-06, 01:00 AM Dangerous. What if I'm a Rogue with 7 ranks in Craft, Profession, Perform, Tumble, Climb, and concentrate? Does every stat go up? What happens if I've got 7 ranks in Climb and Jump? Does my stat go up by two?
Insane skill checks won't break D&D if you rule that certain feats are impossible, but innately giving a wizard a +6 to her INT score per four levels might.

I think he added skills named Strength, Dexterity, Constitution, etc. and is not, in fact, saying that skills based on those abilities cause them to increase.
Pizzini3000
08-13-06, 01:07 AM I think he added skills named Strength, Dexterity, Constitution, etc. and is not, in fact, saying that skills based on those abilities cause them to increase.
Bingo!

Dangerous. What if I'm a Rogue with 7 ranks in Craft, Profession, Perform, Tumble, Climb, and concentrate? Does every stat go up?
It will, however, be possible to increase every stat.

Note: This system does not let any one ability score increase at a rate faster than what is setup in the core rules.
Tenzhi
08-13-06, 01:14 AM It will, however, be possible to increase every stat.

Note: This system does not let any one ability score increase at a rate faster than what is setup in the core rules.

It *does* allow you to increase your overall abilities faster than the core rules allow, however, albeit at the cost of skillpoints.

The largest problem with that, is that means being smarter also means it's easier to be stronger, more agile, healthier, wiser, smarter still, and more personable. Makes Intelligence too powerful.

EDIT: Not to mention that being more skilled via class allows for such as well. It'd almost make more sense to give each class a bonus at certain levels that could be spent on ability scores particularly suited to that class, a feat suited to the class, or on increasing class skills.
Darth Sephiroth
08-13-06, 04:12 AM It really unbalances things, the Rogue and the Bard (as well as any other skilled character) come out lightyears ahead of other classes.
Pizzini3000
08-13-06, 11:29 AM It *does* allow you to increase your overall abilities faster than the core rules allow, however, albeit at the cost of skillpoints.

The largest problem with that, is that means being smarter also means it's easier to be stronger, more agile, healthier, wiser, smarter still, and more personable. Makes Intelligence too powerful.

EDIT: Not to mention that being more skilled via class allows for such as well. It'd almost make more sense to give each class a bonus at certain levels that could be spent on ability scores particularly suited to that class, a feat suited to the class, or on increasing class skills.
how would a score go up faster with my system? characters are still limited to a max rank of their level+3. A character is still limited to 7 ranks at level 4 and 11 ranks at level 8.

In what situation could you see a character taking advantage of this to break his character?

In my opinion, a rogue with 16 intelligence is setting himself up to be extremely skill based. In my system, If he were to spend 6 skill points a level on the ability skills (24 at first), he'd be left with only being able to max out 6 skills. I know when I'm trying to build a skill-oriented rogue, I use alot more skills than that. If i'm not building a skill rogue, then 16 would be a waste in INT.

It may help to understand I run this house-rule with a fairly large point-buy (32 or 34 i think), so that may encourage players not to min-max so much with the ability skill system.

The way it can be broken that you might be trying to get at is someone putting ranks into int, rather than str as a combat-oriented rogue, in order to uses the system to bring his str up to par in the long run, and then still have extra skill points to up his dex and con. In order to figure this out in a way everyone can "listen" to my train of thought, i'm just going to kind of type stream of thought w/ some slight formatting and add a summary or something to the bottom.
--------------------------------------------------
so, the rogues starting stats are 14,18,10,16,8,8 with a 34 point buy to be a combat rogue. rather than putting the points to get a 16 in str, he put them in int, so he can bring his con, dex, AND str up. normally, he'd put the 16 in str, or mabye leave it at 14, and bring his con up to 14. then use his stats every 4 levels to increase dex.

now, he can spend 3 out of his (3int+8base+1houserule{we'll assume he's a halfling for now})12 skill points on the stats he wants to go up. so, his payoff for wasting points in int for stats comes around by level 8. his str, dex, and con are all up to 14, 22, and 12(halfling modifiers included this time). not one of those stats are broken (any halfling with a roll of 18 for dex can get 22 dex by level 8). At level 16 (which I consider high level) his stats could be 16, 24, 14. which also aren't broken. At these levels, characters can start having books of perm stats and crazy items with stat bonuses. it may make characters more powerful, but not that much.

This halfling rogue will have 9 other skills maxed out. of course, he could bring up int, wis, and charisma. all with limited returns, especially for a combat-rogue. granted, bringing up int means that he can spend more skill points by level 8 and then at level 16, but the rogue would have to leave many of his skills and lower ranks. (especially because my houserull takes into account the boost of skill points at first level) and these extra skill points would have to go to his mental stats or skills. the skills will certainly not be broken, and the mental stats will have limited effects.
------------------------------------------------------
IMO, yes, many more stats will go up at the same time, if the character wants that. but at the expense of skill points. classes with multiple skill points dont' just have them for the hell of it, they use them to perform their roles. if the roll of this character is slightly different than that of the main class' perpose, then he can show than in is skill point expenditures.

I actually think this benefits fighters more than anyone else, because they rarely use those few skill points anyway.

Yes, it makes humans a little stronger, but I thought they were slightly nerf anyway. (not even going near half-elves..bleh)

I'll stop now and see what others have to say.
Schmendrick
08-15-06, 04:11 AM In what situation could you see a character taking advantage of this to break his character?

In my opinion, a rogue with 16 intelligence is setting himself up to be extremely skill based. In my system, If he were to spend 6 skill points a level on the ability skills (24 at first), he'd be left with only being able to max out 6 skills. I know when I'm trying to build a skill-oriented rogue, I use alot more skills than that. If i'm not building a skill rogue, then 16 would be a waste in INT.
Not if you intend on raising every ability score. Forget skills, I'll put a 16 in Int just for the ability to raise all my stats. Maxing "only" 6 skills is perfectly fine with me. With +1 to all stats every 4 levels, I'll be party tank.

But, really, forget that; in this system (especially with high point buy), I'd rather play something with MAD and decent skill points, like a monk or a combat bard.
Tenzhi
08-16-06, 01:07 AM how would a score go up faster with my system? characters are still limited to a max rank of their level+3. A character is still limited to 7 ranks at level 4 and 11 ranks at level 8.

Multiple skills at max ranks. Potentially, that's 24 extra ability points at level 20 as opposed to just 4. Hence, overall it's faster.

Perhaps making it so that only one or two abilities are class skills for any given class might help with the issue.
Thelon Fairblade
08-18-06, 11:21 AM Not faster... better. Same advancement sped, just more things being advanced!

Regardless, I like the idea in concept, but I would also expect to see a number of super-rogues, super-bards, super-rangers, mega-barbs, mega-monks, and mega-druids (yikes!). I would definately spend one or two extra skill points to raise 3 stats every 4 levels instead of just one. Heck, my *fighter* would gladly spend his 2 skill points on STR and CON, and then the extra one on whatever... who needs Climb and Jump?

Post/Author/DateTime	Post
Pizzini3000 08-13-06, 12:05 AM	This is a houserule I use. I like it. I think it puts more customization in the hands of the players. It also got me thinking, could I take this further, and remove the default feats gained every level and turn it into skill point expenditures? Beyond that, Could I turn my game into a big classless system where skill points got everything, including "class" abilities? more than anythign i'm posting this to learn of other's insight into my idea. I. Skills a. All characters gain one additional skill point per level (4 at first). b. The minimum number of skill points gained per level is 2. c. Added i. Strength 1. used for strength checks 2. The Strength ability score innately increases by 1 at 7 ranks and every four ranks after. (7, 11, 15…) ii. Dexterity 1. used for dexterity checks 2. The Dexterity ability score innately increases by 1 at 7 ranks and every four ranks after. (7, 11, 15…) iii. Constitution 1. used for constitution checks 2. The Constitution ability score innately increases by 1 at 7 ranks and every four ranks after. (7, 11, 15…) iv. Intelligence 1. used for intelligence checks 2. The intelligence ability score innately increases by 1 at 7 ranks and every four ranks after. (7, 11, 15…) v. Wisdom 1. used for wisdom checks 2. The wisdom ability score innately increases by 1 at 7 ranks and every four ranks after. (7, 11, 15…) vi. Charisma 1. used for charisma checks 2. The charisma ability score innately increases by 1 at 7 ranks and every four ranks after. (7, 11, 15…) II. Ability Scores a. Characters do not gain additional Ability Score points at levels 4, 8, 12, and etc. Summary: Characters no longer gain an inherant ability score boost at levels 4, 8, 12, and etc. Rather, they gain an additional skill point a level (4 at first), the minimum skill points per level be raised to two, and players spend skill points on ability scores. They uses these new "Ability Skills" as their Ability checks (such as for a strength check.). These ability skills get no bonus for their skills checks, just the characters ranks. My reasoning behind this is to allow players to express their training as skills or abilities. It makes sense for someone who is smart enough (has extra skill points from a high intelligence score) to know how to optimize their weight training and stretching. Note: This system does not let any one ability score increase at a rate faster than what is setup in the core rules.
PoeticJustice 08-13-06, 12:41 AM	Dangerous. What if I'm a Rogue with 7 ranks in Craft, Profession, Perform, Tumble, Climb, and concentrate? Does every stat go up? What happens if I've got 7 ranks in Climb and Jump? Does my stat go up by two? Insane skill checks won't break D&D if you rule that certain feats are impossible, but innately giving a wizard a +6 to her INT score per four levels might.
Tenzhi 08-13-06, 01:00 AM	Dangerous. What if I'm a Rogue with 7 ranks in Craft, Profession, Perform, Tumble, Climb, and concentrate? Does every stat go up? What happens if I've got 7 ranks in Climb and Jump? Does my stat go up by two? Insane skill checks won't break D&D if you rule that certain feats are impossible, but innately giving a wizard a +6 to her INT score per four levels might. I think he added skills named Strength, Dexterity, Constitution, etc. and is not, in fact, saying that skills based on those abilities cause them to increase.
Pizzini3000 08-13-06, 01:07 AM	I think he added skills named Strength, Dexterity, Constitution, etc. and is not, in fact, saying that skills based on those abilities cause them to increase. Bingo! Dangerous. What if I'm a Rogue with 7 ranks in Craft, Profession, Perform, Tumble, Climb, and concentrate? Does every stat go up? It will, however, be possible to increase every stat. Note: This system does not let any one ability score increase at a rate faster than what is setup in the core rules.
Tenzhi 08-13-06, 01:14 AM	It will, however, be possible to increase every stat. Note: This system does not let any one ability score increase at a rate faster than what is setup in the core rules. It does allow you to increase your overall abilities faster than the core rules allow, however, albeit at the cost of skillpoints. The largest problem with that, is that means being smarter also means it's easier to be stronger, more agile, healthier, wiser, smarter still, and more personable. Makes Intelligence too powerful. EDIT: Not to mention that being more skilled via class allows for such as well. It'd almost make more sense to give each class a bonus at certain levels that could be spent on ability scores particularly suited to that class, a feat suited to the class, or on increasing class skills.
Darth Sephiroth 08-13-06, 04:12 AM	It really unbalances things, the Rogue and the Bard (as well as any other skilled character) come out lightyears ahead of other classes.
Pizzini3000 08-13-06, 11:29 AM	It does allow you to increase your overall abilities faster than the core rules allow, however, albeit at the cost of skillpoints. The largest problem with that, is that means being smarter also means it's easier to be stronger, more agile, healthier, wiser, smarter still, and more personable. Makes Intelligence too powerful. EDIT: Not to mention that being more skilled via class allows for such as well. It'd almost make more sense to give each class a bonus at certain levels that could be spent on ability scores particularly suited to that class, a feat suited to the class, or on increasing class skills. how would a score go up faster with my system? characters are still limited to a max rank of their level+3. A character is still limited to 7 ranks at level 4 and 11 ranks at level 8. In what situation could you see a character taking advantage of this to break his character? In my opinion, a rogue with 16 intelligence is setting himself up to be extremely skill based. In my system, If he were to spend 6 skill points a level on the ability skills (24 at first), he'd be left with only being able to max out 6 skills. I know when I'm trying to build a skill-oriented rogue, I use alot more skills than that. If i'm not building a skill rogue, then 16 would be a waste in INT. It may help to understand I run this house-rule with a fairly large point-buy (32 or 34 i think), so that may encourage players not to min-max so much with the ability skill system. The way it can be broken that you might be trying to get at is someone putting ranks into int, rather than str as a combat-oriented rogue, in order to uses the system to bring his str up to par in the long run, and then still have extra skill points to up his dex and con. In order to figure this out in a way everyone can "listen" to my train of thought, i'm just going to kind of type stream of thought w/ some slight formatting and add a summary or something to the bottom. -------------------------------------------------- so, the rogues starting stats are 14,18,10,16,8,8 with a 34 point buy to be a combat rogue. rather than putting the points to get a 16 in str, he put them in int, so he can bring his con, dex, AND str up. normally, he'd put the 16 in str, or mabye leave it at 14, and bring his con up to 14. then use his stats every 4 levels to increase dex. now, he can spend 3 out of his (3int+8base+1houserule{we'll assume he's a halfling for now})12 skill points on the stats he wants to go up. so, his payoff for wasting points in int for stats comes around by level 8. his str, dex, and con are all up to 14, 22, and 12(halfling modifiers included this time). not one of those stats are broken (any halfling with a roll of 18 for dex can get 22 dex by level 8). At level 16 (which I consider high level) his stats could be 16, 24, 14. which also aren't broken. At these levels, characters can start having books of perm stats and crazy items with stat bonuses. it may make characters more powerful, but not that much. This halfling rogue will have 9 other skills maxed out. of course, he could bring up int, wis, and charisma. all with limited returns, especially for a combat-rogue. granted, bringing up int means that he can spend more skill points by level 8 and then at level 16, but the rogue would have to leave many of his skills and lower ranks. (especially because my houserull takes into account the boost of skill points at first level) and these extra skill points would have to go to his mental stats or skills. the skills will certainly not be broken, and the mental stats will have limited effects. ------------------------------------------------------ IMO, yes, many more stats will go up at the same time, if the character wants that. but at the expense of skill points. classes with multiple skill points dont' just have them for the hell of it, they use them to perform their roles. if the roll of this character is slightly different than that of the main class' perpose, then he can show than in is skill point expenditures. I actually think this benefits fighters more than anyone else, because they rarely use those few skill points anyway. Yes, it makes humans a little stronger, but I thought they were slightly nerf anyway. (not even going near half-elves..bleh) I'll stop now and see what others have to say.
Schmendrick 08-15-06, 04:11 AM	In what situation could you see a character taking advantage of this to break his character? In my opinion, a rogue with 16 intelligence is setting himself up to be extremely skill based. In my system, If he were to spend 6 skill points a level on the ability skills (24 at first), he'd be left with only being able to max out 6 skills. I know when I'm trying to build a skill-oriented rogue, I use alot more skills than that. If i'm not building a skill rogue, then 16 would be a waste in INT. Not if you intend on raising every ability score. Forget skills, I'll put a 16 in Int just for the ability to raise all my stats. Maxing "only" 6 skills is perfectly fine with me. With +1 to all stats every 4 levels, I'll be party tank. But, really, forget that; in this system (especially with high point buy), I'd rather play something with MAD and decent skill points, like a monk or a combat bard.
Tenzhi 08-16-06, 01:07 AM	how would a score go up faster with my system? characters are still limited to a max rank of their level+3. A character is still limited to 7 ranks at level 4 and 11 ranks at level 8. Multiple skills at max ranks. Potentially, that's 24 extra ability points at level 20 as opposed to just 4. Hence, overall it's faster. Perhaps making it so that only one or two abilities are class skills for any given class might help with the issue.
Thelon Fairblade 08-18-06, 11:21 AM	Not faster... better. Same advancement sped, just more things being advanced! Regardless, I like the idea in concept, but I would also expect to see a number of super-rogues, super-bards, super-rangers, mega-barbs, mega-monks, and mega-druids (yikes!). I would definately spend one or two extra skill points to raise 3 stats every 4 levels instead of just one. Heck, my fighter would gladly spend his 2 skill points on STR and CON, and then the extra one on whatever... who needs Climb and Jump?