"Balancing" the core classes... [Archive] - Wizards Community

"Balancing" the core classes... [Archive] - Wizards Community

Post/Author/DateTime Post
FlameLover
06-09-06, 02:22 AM I'd like to try and make the 11 core classes a little more equal in power at all levels. I want to try and keep the flavour the same (I dislike some of it myself, but my players don't so i'm keeping it the same). I don't want to make any massive changes to the clases, just little boosts or nerfs to try and make them more interesting and equal. I will take my benchmark for power as the Monk, as many people agree it is the most balanced core class.

Barbarian: Need no change.

Bard: Give them the PHB2 variant, without trading in the Bardic Knowledge class feature. I still see them as a bit weak, but they feel a bit more rounded with this addition.

Cleric: One of only two classes to get "nerfed". The change that works best IMO is to remove spontaneous casting of cure or inflict spells, and remove domain slots. Then allow them to spontaneously cast domain spells. Makes clerics feel different from one another, and makes them weaker.

Druid: Use the variant from PHB2 for Wildshaping. Easy.
EDIT: Forgot to add that they cannot spontaneously cast Summon Nature's Ally X.

Fighter: Using the variants and feats from the PHB2, Fighters seem fine now.

Monk: Balanced.

Paladin: Drop their Remove Disease ability, and change their Lay on Hands ability to that of the Dragon Shaman. In place of Remove Disease, boost their spellcasting by giving them 1 extra spell for each level of spell they can cast. eg. their base spell allotment for level 9 would be 2/1 instead of 1/0.

Ranger: Make their animal companion as powerful as Druids, give them 1 extra spell for each level of spell they can cast. eg. their base spell allotment for level 9 would be 2/1 instead of 1/0.

Rogue: Get special ability at levels 7, 10, 13, 16 and 19.

Sorceror: Drop familiar for the PHB2 variant, get Eschew Materials for free at first level, and give a free Heritage feat at levels 6, 12 and 18.

Wizards: Slow progression of bonus feats to 6, 12 and 18 instead of 5, 10, 15 and 20.

Ok, now I need peoples opinions. Does that look OK? I know that melee characters are still a little worse then casters with this modification, but it seems to make them a little more comparable.
syrinth
06-09-06, 03:10 AM I personally have a very hard time believing that clerics spontaneously casting domains spells would weaken them. Rather, wouldn't it kind of... strengthen them? I mean, there are some nasty spells on domain lists. For example, imagine a 18th level cleric with the trickery domain. That sucker can spontaneously cast Time Stop. He can prepare any spell he wants and then if he needs to can pull one of the most powerful spells in the game out whenever he needs it.

Also, I don't know exactly what the sorcerer changes are but Id personally add in the ability to swap out spells when the character needs to, just give it a relatively nasty requirement to reduce abuse. Ex: Experience and gold cost as well as time.

As for anything else I dont really feel that I can comment.
FlameLover
06-09-06, 03:17 AM I personally have a very hard time believing that clerics spontaneously casting domains spells would weaken them. Rather, wouldn't it kind of... strengthen them? I mean, there are some nasty spells on domain lists. For example, imagine a 18th level cleric with the trickery domain. That sucker can spontaneously cast Time Stop. He can prepare any spell he wants and then if he needs to can pull one of the most powerful spells in the game out whenever he needs it.
True, BUT it would require them to take the Healing domain if they're going to play the band-aid. Basically resigning you to only one extra domain if you still want to be a flexible healer is quite weakening I think. It boosts them in some ways, and nerfs them in others. They're still overpowered, sure, but then this isn't aimed at making them all perfectley equal. Just as close as possible while keeping CRs the same and players happy. It might help to point out I ban all full-progression PrCs (without modification atleast) and Divine Metamagic is right out.

Also, I don't know exactly what the sorcerer changes are but Id personally add in the ability to swap out spells when the character needs to, just give it a relatively nasty requirement to reduce abuse. Ex: Experience and gold cost as well as time.
The Sorceror variant allows them to spontaneously apply metamagic feats without increasing casting time a limited number of times per day. It is more powerful than the familiar, something they can gain with a feat if they feel so compelled.
syrinth
06-09-06, 03:20 AM True, BUT it would require them to take the Healing domain if they're going to play the band-aid.

Have I missed a memo? Haven't clerics always been band-aids second and powerhouses first? :P
FlameLover
06-09-06, 03:29 AM In my games, no. The Cleric in our gaming group does 70% healing and 30% buffing. They only cast one offensive spell - Inflict Serious Wounds - the whole last session. Clerics can be built to be powerhouses, but in a group without any other healing (how it is in our group) they really only do healing and buffing.

But I can see in another group this change being a major boon. For that reason, i'm tampted to just drop spontaneous casting at all for Clerics. No other class besides the Druid gets it, so why keep it? Does it sound balanced to do that?
syrinth
06-09-06, 03:35 AM Whatever works for you in your game:P

In my game our cleric actually let an NPC ally bleed to death beside her she was so busy fighting...

Personally the cleric changes Im considering are the following:

- Rewriting each cleric class for each god. Different clerics gain different abilities based upon the general needs of their god.

- No domain spells but domain benefits are retained, this will be balanced by the granted abilities of the rewritten cleric classes.

- They need to learn spells exactly like a wizard by tithing to their church for access to spells. A cleric could also be granted spell access by performing a great deed. Regardless, a cleric does not need a spell book.

Now, those are just the changes Im planning(and will probably never actually do any except for the last one) but thats just me and my hatred of clerics. I also have a few special rules for magic in general because there are several spells that just **** me off, although that's another matter entirely:D
FlameLover
06-09-06, 03:45 AM Well when I get around to re-doing the entire D&D system (something i've been planning on for over a year) Clerics will be gone entirley. But my goal is to "balance" the class with minimum effort or modification.

When I do re-do the whole thing, i'll be making all casters function like a cross between the Psion and the Warlock. But for now, i'll have to be making do with this. I might have to use your last idea though. Making a Cleric research spells helps to stop the craziness of them having 500+ spells to pick from every day.
syrinth
06-09-06, 03:48 AM Yeah thats always cheesed me off, the fun comes when you get a new source book >.<
Cheza
06-09-06, 09:26 AM I mean, there are some nasty spells on domain lists. For example, imagine a 18th level cleric with the trickery domain. That sucker can spontaneously cast Time Stop. He can prepare any spell he wants and then if he needs to can pull one of the most powerful spells in the game out whenever he needs it.
That's right, but remember: "While the time stop is in effect, other creatures are invulnerable to your attacks and spells; you cannot target such creatures with any attack or spell."

It's not different to spontaneos healing. A cleric could prepare a time stop and then spontaneously change it into a cure critical, mass. Remember that clerics have to choose any additional spell from the domain list. So if he takes trickery domain, he HAS to take time stop and HAS to take disguise self and nondetection too.

But I think this changes the game style of clerics a lot. It's not always the "pimped up fighter" style.

The best thing with spontaneous healing is that any spell you haven't used yet can be transformed into a after-combat healing. That keeps your party running. If your teammate is heavily wounded, it doesn't change anything if your character can cast "time stop" and your teammate is still dying. And if he's dead it's quite annoying to be in a dungeon, when the rogue dies. Hope the time stop helps against traps!!!
jagggar
06-09-06, 11:48 AM But researching spells as a divine caster is already in the PHB, page 180. It's how I plan to escape the insanity of divine spells in the next game I run.
FlameLover
06-09-06, 05:52 PM Cheza, does that mean you think allowing spontanoues domain casting isn't too powerful? I didn't think it was really myself, since they lose an extra spell per day per level (no domain slots) and spontaneous cure without picking up the healing domain.
syrinth
06-09-06, 06:31 PM That's right, but remember: "While the time stop is in effect, other creatures are invulnerable to your attacks and spells; you cannot target such creatures with any attack or spell."

Oh no, the cleric cannot directly harm them. Instead he can... buff himself to oblivion in an instant?

Meh, its your call but thats just my opinion.
Xeviat-DM
06-09-06, 07:09 PM I'll comment on this more thouroughly soon, but I wanted to express my opinion on the cleric idea:

This doesn't weaken clerics, or strengthen them. It does add variety and makes clerics more different from one another, though; I've been playing with this very same rule for some time now and they're perfectly fine. It makes the healing domain much more important, though, as it should be.
allenthailand
06-09-06, 10:00 PM Just a quick note- you realize that with the PHB II Wildshaping variant, Druids no longer have animal companions... so only Rangers have them.

Giving Rangers a Druid progression Animal Companion would probably overpower them. I mean, at that point why play a fighter?

Overall, though, I like your ideas.
FlameLover
06-10-06, 07:00 PM Yes, I realise that druids wouldn't have animal companions. But most of my players don't have a strong feeling they really should, so that isn't much of an issue. It might slightly overpower rangers, but then I want to overpower the melee classes. The only problem is the Fighter. The solution is to give them some more high-level fighter-only feats. I'm working on some right now, but i'm using the class abilities from Iron Heroes as ideas. I'll go through Iron Heroes and convert most of the classes into fighter-only feat trees. That should fix them up quite a bit.
Bohica
06-11-06, 07:53 AM - Rewriting each cleric class for each god. Different clerics gain different abilities based upon the general needs of their god.

- No domain spells but domain benefits are retained, this will be balanced by the granted abilities of the rewritten cleric classes.

- They need to learn spells exactly like a wizard by tithing to their church for access to spells. A cleric could also be granted spell access by performing a great deed. Regardless, a cleric does not need a spell book.

These are great ideas. I could see clerics having to participate in their church to learn new "prayers" for more spells, or a Druid having to consult with a Druid circle to learn more secrets of nature. I think I may adopt this idea in the future.

Bohica
Hodo
06-11-06, 10:46 AM Change Cleric to the cloistered cleric from UA. They become more like the healer/buffer with secondary role as loremaster, or diplomat rather than combatant. Their selection of skills and spells (all connected to domain) really makes them more than wanna-be Paladins with better spell progression and no alignment restrictions.

I dislike animal companions/familiars as a class feature. It forces a character to carry around a liability and makes for extra bookekeeping and just annoys people when they die since they're usually so fragile compared to the PCs when taking into account the threats they face. 'Where was your animal companion sitting again? Oh yeah right beside you. What's it's reflex save again? Okay, the Dragon hits it with a breath weapon."

I use other changes, like giving Druids the PHBII options, giving Ranger distracting attack, giving Sorcerers eschew materials, and Wizards some extra spells in their spellbook or more starting gold at 1st level.
Nani?
06-11-06, 11:06 AM I would change the widen the sorcerer feats to include few other things like for example, the sudden feats in complete arcane and also give them 4+ skills (Logic: no long apprenticeship), and alter thier skill list slightly. For example, any one knowledge can add flavor. Knowledge: the planes or knowledge: nature alone can give a sorcerer an interesting background (were did you learn your magic?).

All the best,

Nani?
Teydyn
06-11-06, 10:43 PM Cleric: One of only two classes to get "nerfed". The change that works best IMO is to remove spontaneous casting of cure or inflict spells, and remove domain slots. Then allow them to spontaneously cast domain spells. Makes clerics feel different from one another, and makes them weaker.
Spontaneous Healing is not a boon to the cleric, its a boon to the party. Now a "power cleric" CAN heal after a fight, with your rule he wouldnt even be able to do that. BAD idea. Better reduce their spells/day by 1 and give them 2 domain slots. (even that would need some work)

Ranger: Make their animal companion as powerful as Druids, give them 1 extra spell for each level of spell they can cast.
Maybe give them the extra spells, but that could be too much already. In my group its already "Why play a fighter when you can play a ranger with 6sp, 2 good saves, spells, good BAB..."

Wizards: Slow progression of bonus feats to 6, 12 and 18 instead of 5, 10, 15 and 20.
This "nerf" is so small it doesnt almost register... (then again no idea what to do myself:))
Evanta
06-12-06, 02:15 AM I'd like to try and make the 11 core classes a little more equal in power at all levels. I want to try and keep the flavour the same (I dislike some of it myself, but my players don't so i'm keeping it the same). I don't want to make any massive changes to the clases, just little boosts or nerfs to try and make them more interesting and equal. I will take my benchmark for power as the Monk, as many people agree it is the most balanced core class.

Is this core only + PHB II with no PRCs and complete book feats? I think the power levels can really change depending on the feat list and spell-list allowed. E.g. Paladin is much weaker core-wise compared to the splatbook feats that allow usage of his turn undead ability. I also prefer simple non-complicated changes. :P

Barbarian, Fighter, Monk - Agreed, no changes needed.

Clerics, Druids, Bard, Rogue - Agree with your changes, simple and elegant. Bard should get Eschew Materials.

Sorcerers - I gave them Eschew Materials (Sorcerer spells only), and allowed them to learn an extra spell at each new spell level for some added versatility. Augment Familiar and Familiar pocket should be in their spell list if splat books are nt allowed.

Ranger - Just boosting the animal companion should be sufficient.

Paladin - I'll just give them Extra Smite for free.

Wizard - Removing familiar should be sufficient, enough of a nerf to make the 2 classes different, wizard sacrifices spontaneous casting, familiar and firepower for versatility, extra feats and ability to use crafting well.
Cheza
06-12-06, 10:08 AM Oh no, the cleric cannot directly harm them. Instead he can... buff himself to oblivion in an instant?

Meh, its your call but thats just my opinion.
The average duration is 3.5 turns. Since you could have cast a different spell instead, you lose 1 of these turns (= 2.5). So it's the same like triggering 2.5 additional spells (or cast them as 'free actions'). If you play with mana/power points instead of spell slots, guess what you could do? A level 9 spell needs 17 points. If you try to transfer a spell into a quicken spell, you need +8 points. So can theroretically transfer 2 spells and therefore cast 3 spells on this turn. So only the cap limits your options.

On the other side, no cleric needs a time stop, if he can foretell critical events. So if you don't know if a combat will/could happen, it's your own fault. You SHOULD die, if you fail to notice a dragon! By the time of level 9 spells like 'time stop', any spell you can cast have a duration long enough to cast it before you attack or approach. So time stop could reduce the damage you get on an ambush, but if you get to cast a time stop without interruption or counterspells, you can call yourself a lucky devil.

Cheza, does that mean you think allowing spontanoues domain casting isn't too powerful? I didn't think it was really myself, since they lose an extra spell per day per level (no domain slots) and spontaneous cure without picking up the healing domain.
I think it isn't too powerful. It should be the same as spontaneous cure, because any spell should be balanced with any other spell on this spell level. So if you think 'time stop' would be to powerful, that's because you think 'time stop' is unbalanced and not because of spontaneously casting of domain spells.
DIESCUMDIE
06-13-06, 12:06 PM I dont think there's much issue of class balance, its just that all casters completely overpower non casters after a certain level because the power of their spells goes up and the amount of spells goes up.

I weaken casters by making it easier for skill monkeys to get the fight how they like it, making casters more vulnerable. Other ideas include rewarding good characters (which helps the more popular and easy to play beef characters) and further limits to casters; only one arcane spell of lvl 6 and up gained every other level, divine spells of lvl 6 and up can only be used against 4 specific alignment combinations dependent on their alignment.
Aurotuli
06-13-06, 09:03 PM Oh no, the cleric cannot directly harm them. Instead he can... buff himself to oblivion in an instant?Suddenly I'm reminded of Dragon Ball Z: a cleric 17 / barbarian 3 casting time stop, buffing himself with the best phys buffs he has prepared, then coming out of time stop in the midst of a scream of unbridled rage (ie: going into rage) - perhaps having just cast some variant of 'continual flame' over himself in the last virtual round.

It's an amusing thought, although I wonder what deity would have both the Strength domain and one with Time Stop as its 9th level spell (the former being the most logical other domain of such a character, the latter being necessary for the set up).
Tequila_Sunrise
06-14-06, 10:20 PM I've said this many times before and I'll say this again--sorcs are not underpowered, they're UNAPPEALING, as they were always meant to be. Don't try to 'buff them up' to the wizard's supposed superiority so that more players play sorcs. They're the mutants of D&D; there's supposed to be about 100 wizards for every sorc! And certainly don't nerf wizards unless you MAJORLY nerf all the other major spellcasting classes; those bonus feats are the only tangible advantages that the wizard has over the others' raw spellpower. End rant.

Your other changes look fine.

Post/Author/DateTime	Post
FlameLover 06-09-06, 02:22 AM	I'd like to try and make the 11 core classes a little more equal in power at all levels. I want to try and keep the flavour the same (I dislike some of it myself, but my players don't so i'm keeping it the same). I don't want to make any massive changes to the clases, just little boosts or nerfs to try and make them more interesting and equal. I will take my benchmark for power as the Monk, as many people agree it is the most balanced core class. Barbarian: Need no change. Bard: Give them the PHB2 variant, without trading in the Bardic Knowledge class feature. I still see them as a bit weak, but they feel a bit more rounded with this addition. Cleric: One of only two classes to get "nerfed". The change that works best IMO is to remove spontaneous casting of cure or inflict spells, and remove domain slots. Then allow them to spontaneously cast domain spells. Makes clerics feel different from one another, and makes them weaker. Druid: Use the variant from PHB2 for Wildshaping. Easy. EDIT: Forgot to add that they cannot spontaneously cast Summon Nature's Ally X. Fighter: Using the variants and feats from the PHB2, Fighters seem fine now. Monk: Balanced. Paladin: Drop their Remove Disease ability, and change their Lay on Hands ability to that of the Dragon Shaman. In place of Remove Disease, boost their spellcasting by giving them 1 extra spell for each level of spell they can cast. eg. their base spell allotment for level 9 would be 2/1 instead of 1/0. Ranger: Make their animal companion as powerful as Druids, give them 1 extra spell for each level of spell they can cast. eg. their base spell allotment for level 9 would be 2/1 instead of 1/0. Rogue: Get special ability at levels 7, 10, 13, 16 and 19. Sorceror: Drop familiar for the PHB2 variant, get Eschew Materials for free at first level, and give a free Heritage feat at levels 6, 12 and 18. Wizards: Slow progression of bonus feats to 6, 12 and 18 instead of 5, 10, 15 and 20. Ok, now I need peoples opinions. Does that look OK? I know that melee characters are still a little worse then casters with this modification, but it seems to make them a little more comparable.
syrinth 06-09-06, 03:10 AM	I personally have a very hard time believing that clerics spontaneously casting domains spells would weaken them. Rather, wouldn't it kind of... strengthen them? I mean, there are some nasty spells on domain lists. For example, imagine a 18th level cleric with the trickery domain. That sucker can spontaneously cast Time Stop. He can prepare any spell he wants and then if he needs to can pull one of the most powerful spells in the game out whenever he needs it. Also, I don't know exactly what the sorcerer changes are but Id personally add in the ability to swap out spells when the character needs to, just give it a relatively nasty requirement to reduce abuse. Ex: Experience and gold cost as well as time. As for anything else I dont really feel that I can comment.
FlameLover 06-09-06, 03:17 AM	I personally have a very hard time believing that clerics spontaneously casting domains spells would weaken them. Rather, wouldn't it kind of... strengthen them? I mean, there are some nasty spells on domain lists. For example, imagine a 18th level cleric with the trickery domain. That sucker can spontaneously cast Time Stop. He can prepare any spell he wants and then if he needs to can pull one of the most powerful spells in the game out whenever he needs it. True, BUT it would require them to take the Healing domain if they're going to play the band-aid. Basically resigning you to only one extra domain if you still want to be a flexible healer is quite weakening I think. It boosts them in some ways, and nerfs them in others. They're still overpowered, sure, but then this isn't aimed at making them all perfectley equal. Just as close as possible while keeping CRs the same and players happy. It might help to point out I ban all full-progression PrCs (without modification atleast) and Divine Metamagic is right out. Also, I don't know exactly what the sorcerer changes are but Id personally add in the ability to swap out spells when the character needs to, just give it a relatively nasty requirement to reduce abuse. Ex: Experience and gold cost as well as time. The Sorceror variant allows them to spontaneously apply metamagic feats without increasing casting time a limited number of times per day. It is more powerful than the familiar, something they can gain with a feat if they feel so compelled.
syrinth 06-09-06, 03:20 AM	True, BUT it would require them to take the Healing domain if they're going to play the band-aid. Have I missed a memo? Haven't clerics always been band-aids second and powerhouses first? :P
FlameLover 06-09-06, 03:29 AM	In my games, no. The Cleric in our gaming group does 70% healing and 30% buffing. They only cast one offensive spell - Inflict Serious Wounds - the whole last session. Clerics can be built to be powerhouses, but in a group without any other healing (how it is in our group) they really only do healing and buffing. But I can see in another group this change being a major boon. For that reason, i'm tampted to just drop spontaneous casting at all for Clerics. No other class besides the Druid gets it, so why keep it? Does it sound balanced to do that?
syrinth 06-09-06, 03:35 AM	Whatever works for you in your game:P In my game our cleric actually let an NPC ally bleed to death beside her she was so busy fighting... Personally the cleric changes Im considering are the following: - Rewriting each cleric class for each god. Different clerics gain different abilities based upon the general needs of their god. - No domain spells but domain benefits are retained, this will be balanced by the granted abilities of the rewritten cleric classes. - They need to learn spells exactly like a wizard by tithing to their church for access to spells. A cleric could also be granted spell access by performing a great deed. Regardless, a cleric does not need a spell book. Now, those are just the changes Im planning(and will probably never actually do any except for the last one) but thats just me and my hatred of clerics. I also have a few special rules for magic in general because there are several spells that just **** me off, although that's another matter entirely:D
FlameLover 06-09-06, 03:45 AM	Well when I get around to re-doing the entire D&D system (something i've been planning on for over a year) Clerics will be gone entirley. But my goal is to "balance" the class with minimum effort or modification. When I do re-do the whole thing, i'll be making all casters function like a cross between the Psion and the Warlock. But for now, i'll have to be making do with this. I might have to use your last idea though. Making a Cleric research spells helps to stop the craziness of them having 500+ spells to pick from every day.
syrinth 06-09-06, 03:48 AM	Yeah thats always cheesed me off, the fun comes when you get a new source book >.<
Cheza 06-09-06, 09:26 AM	I mean, there are some nasty spells on domain lists. For example, imagine a 18th level cleric with the trickery domain. That sucker can spontaneously cast Time Stop. He can prepare any spell he wants and then if he needs to can pull one of the most powerful spells in the game out whenever he needs it. That's right, but remember: "While the time stop is in effect, other creatures are invulnerable to your attacks and spells; you cannot target such creatures with any attack or spell." It's not different to spontaneos healing. A cleric could prepare a time stop and then spontaneously change it into a cure critical, mass. Remember that clerics have to choose any additional spell from the domain list. So if he takes trickery domain, he HAS to take time stop and HAS to take disguise self and nondetection too. But I think this changes the game style of clerics a lot. It's not always the "pimped up fighter" style. The best thing with spontaneous healing is that any spell you haven't used yet can be transformed into a after-combat healing. That keeps your party running. If your teammate is heavily wounded, it doesn't change anything if your character can cast "time stop" and your teammate is still dying. And if he's dead it's quite annoying to be in a dungeon, when the rogue dies. Hope the time stop helps against traps!!!
jagggar 06-09-06, 11:48 AM	But researching spells as a divine caster is already in the PHB, page 180. It's how I plan to escape the insanity of divine spells in the next game I run.
FlameLover 06-09-06, 05:52 PM	Cheza, does that mean you think allowing spontanoues domain casting isn't too powerful? I didn't think it was really myself, since they lose an extra spell per day per level (no domain slots) and spontaneous cure without picking up the healing domain.
syrinth 06-09-06, 06:31 PM	That's right, but remember: "While the time stop is in effect, other creatures are invulnerable to your attacks and spells; you cannot target such creatures with any attack or spell." Oh no, the cleric cannot directly harm them. Instead he can... buff himself to oblivion in an instant? Meh, its your call but thats just my opinion.
Xeviat-DM 06-09-06, 07:09 PM	I'll comment on this more thouroughly soon, but I wanted to express my opinion on the cleric idea: This doesn't weaken clerics, or strengthen them. It does add variety and makes clerics more different from one another, though; I've been playing with this very same rule for some time now and they're perfectly fine. It makes the healing domain much more important, though, as it should be.
allenthailand 06-09-06, 10:00 PM	Just a quick note- you realize that with the PHB II Wildshaping variant, Druids no longer have animal companions... so only Rangers have them. Giving Rangers a Druid progression Animal Companion would probably overpower them. I mean, at that point why play a fighter? Overall, though, I like your ideas.
FlameLover 06-10-06, 07:00 PM	Yes, I realise that druids wouldn't have animal companions. But most of my players don't have a strong feeling they really should, so that isn't much of an issue. It might slightly overpower rangers, but then I want to overpower the melee classes. The only problem is the Fighter. The solution is to give them some more high-level fighter-only feats. I'm working on some right now, but i'm using the class abilities from Iron Heroes as ideas. I'll go through Iron Heroes and convert most of the classes into fighter-only feat trees. That should fix them up quite a bit.
Bohica 06-11-06, 07:53 AM	- Rewriting each cleric class for each god. Different clerics gain different abilities based upon the general needs of their god. - No domain spells but domain benefits are retained, this will be balanced by the granted abilities of the rewritten cleric classes. - They need to learn spells exactly like a wizard by tithing to their church for access to spells. A cleric could also be granted spell access by performing a great deed. Regardless, a cleric does not need a spell book. These are great ideas. I could see clerics having to participate in their church to learn new "prayers" for more spells, or a Druid having to consult with a Druid circle to learn more secrets of nature. I think I may adopt this idea in the future. Bohica
Hodo 06-11-06, 10:46 AM	Change Cleric to the cloistered cleric from UA. They become more like the healer/buffer with secondary role as loremaster, or diplomat rather than combatant. Their selection of skills and spells (all connected to domain) really makes them more than wanna-be Paladins with better spell progression and no alignment restrictions. I dislike animal companions/familiars as a class feature. It forces a character to carry around a liability and makes for extra bookekeeping and just annoys people when they die since they're usually so fragile compared to the PCs when taking into account the threats they face. 'Where was your animal companion sitting again? Oh yeah right beside you. What's it's reflex save again? Okay, the Dragon hits it with a breath weapon." I use other changes, like giving Druids the PHBII options, giving Ranger distracting attack, giving Sorcerers eschew materials, and Wizards some extra spells in their spellbook or more starting gold at 1st level.
Nani? 06-11-06, 11:06 AM	I would change the widen the sorcerer feats to include few other things like for example, the sudden feats in complete arcane and also give them 4+ skills (Logic: no long apprenticeship), and alter thier skill list slightly. For example, any one knowledge can add flavor. Knowledge: the planes or knowledge: nature alone can give a sorcerer an interesting background (were did you learn your magic?). All the best, Nani?
Teydyn 06-11-06, 10:43 PM	Cleric: One of only two classes to get "nerfed". The change that works best IMO is to remove spontaneous casting of cure or inflict spells, and remove domain slots. Then allow them to spontaneously cast domain spells. Makes clerics feel different from one another, and makes them weaker. Spontaneous Healing is not a boon to the cleric, its a boon to the party. Now a "power cleric" CAN heal after a fight, with your rule he wouldnt even be able to do that. BAD idea. Better reduce their spells/day by 1 and give them 2 domain slots. (even that would need some work) Ranger: Make their animal companion as powerful as Druids, give them 1 extra spell for each level of spell they can cast. Maybe give them the extra spells, but that could be too much already. In my group its already "Why play a fighter when you can play a ranger with 6sp, 2 good saves, spells, good BAB..." Wizards: Slow progression of bonus feats to 6, 12 and 18 instead of 5, 10, 15 and 20. This "nerf" is so small it doesnt almost register... (then again no idea what to do myself:))
Evanta 06-12-06, 02:15 AM	I'd like to try and make the 11 core classes a little more equal in power at all levels. I want to try and keep the flavour the same (I dislike some of it myself, but my players don't so i'm keeping it the same). I don't want to make any massive changes to the clases, just little boosts or nerfs to try and make them more interesting and equal. I will take my benchmark for power as the Monk, as many people agree it is the most balanced core class. Is this core only + PHB II with no PRCs and complete book feats? I think the power levels can really change depending on the feat list and spell-list allowed. E.g. Paladin is much weaker core-wise compared to the splatbook feats that allow usage of his turn undead ability. I also prefer simple non-complicated changes. :P Barbarian, Fighter, Monk - Agreed, no changes needed. Clerics, Druids, Bard, Rogue - Agree with your changes, simple and elegant. Bard should get Eschew Materials. Sorcerers - I gave them Eschew Materials (Sorcerer spells only), and allowed them to learn an extra spell at each new spell level for some added versatility. Augment Familiar and Familiar pocket should be in their spell list if splat books are nt allowed. Ranger - Just boosting the animal companion should be sufficient. Paladin - I'll just give them Extra Smite for free. Wizard - Removing familiar should be sufficient, enough of a nerf to make the 2 classes different, wizard sacrifices spontaneous casting, familiar and firepower for versatility, extra feats and ability to use crafting well.
Cheza 06-12-06, 10:08 AM	Oh no, the cleric cannot directly harm them. Instead he can... buff himself to oblivion in an instant? Meh, its your call but thats just my opinion. The average duration is 3.5 turns. Since you could have cast a different spell instead, you lose 1 of these turns (= 2.5). So it's the same like triggering 2.5 additional spells (or cast them as 'free actions'). If you play with mana/power points instead of spell slots, guess what you could do? A level 9 spell needs 17 points. If you try to transfer a spell into a quicken spell, you need +8 points. So can theroretically transfer 2 spells and therefore cast 3 spells on this turn. So only the cap limits your options. On the other side, no cleric needs a time stop, if he can foretell critical events. So if you don't know if a combat will/could happen, it's your own fault. You SHOULD die, if you fail to notice a dragon! By the time of level 9 spells like 'time stop', any spell you can cast have a duration long enough to cast it before you attack or approach. So time stop could reduce the damage you get on an ambush, but if you get to cast a time stop without interruption or counterspells, you can call yourself a lucky devil. Cheza, does that mean you think allowing spontanoues domain casting isn't too powerful? I didn't think it was really myself, since they lose an extra spell per day per level (no domain slots) and spontaneous cure without picking up the healing domain. I think it isn't too powerful. It should be the same as spontaneous cure, because any spell should be balanced with any other spell on this spell level. So if you think 'time stop' would be to powerful, that's because you think 'time stop' is unbalanced and not because of spontaneously casting of domain spells.
DIESCUMDIE 06-13-06, 12:06 PM	I dont think there's much issue of class balance, its just that all casters completely overpower non casters after a certain level because the power of their spells goes up and the amount of spells goes up. I weaken casters by making it easier for skill monkeys to get the fight how they like it, making casters more vulnerable. Other ideas include rewarding good characters (which helps the more popular and easy to play beef characters) and further limits to casters; only one arcane spell of lvl 6 and up gained every other level, divine spells of lvl 6 and up can only be used against 4 specific alignment combinations dependent on their alignment.
Aurotuli 06-13-06, 09:03 PM	Oh no, the cleric cannot directly harm them. Instead he can... buff himself to oblivion in an instant?Suddenly I'm reminded of Dragon Ball Z: a cleric 17 / barbarian 3 casting time stop, buffing himself with the best phys buffs he has prepared, then coming out of time stop in the midst of a scream of unbridled rage (ie: going into rage) - perhaps having just cast some variant of 'continual flame' over himself in the last virtual round. It's an amusing thought, although I wonder what deity would have both the Strength domain and one with Time Stop as its 9th level spell (the former being the most logical other domain of such a character, the latter being necessary for the set up).
Tequila_Sunrise 06-14-06, 10:20 PM	I've said this many times before and I'll say this again--sorcs are not underpowered, they're UNAPPEALING, as they were always meant to be. Don't try to 'buff them up' to the wizard's supposed superiority so that more players play sorcs. They're the mutants of D&D; there's supposed to be about 100 wizards for every sorc! And certainly don't nerf wizards unless you MAJORLY nerf all the other major spellcasting classes; those bonus feats are the only tangible advantages that the wizard has over the others' raw spellpower. End rant. Your other changes look fine.