Post/Author/DateTime	Post
radu the wanderer 03-30-04, 02:01 AM	I want to run a campaign with a slightly "gritty" feeling to it... say like Saving Private Ryan compared to To Hell and Back... or if any of you have seen it, the Berserk anime. I'm dropping the massive damage threshold down to 30 hp in one blow, and the Fort save is now 18--- significantly scarier, which is my intent. I'm also introducing a new feat detailed below for those who want a really resilient character. Improved Damage Threshold You are more resistant to massive damage Prerequisites: Character Level 3+ Benefit: your Death by Massive Damage (tm) threshold increases to 40, and the Fort save decreases to 15. I was considering adopting the Reserve Points rule, but make it equal 1/2 your maximum HP. Otherwise as written. Healing spells heal 1 die size larger, but instead of curing outright they convert lethal damage into non-lethal (subdual) damage. Raise dead and Reincarnate are gone. Period. The only "cheat death" spells available will be the level 7 Cleric spell Resurrection or the use of a Wish or Miracle. Limited Wish is likewise gone, and the spells Remove Disease and Neutralize Poison work a bit differently--- instead of working automatically, you must make a caster level check against the save DC of the disease or poison to eliminate it. Otherwise, it doesn't work. Druids have a variant curative rule--- They gain all the curative spells at the same level as a Cleric does, but instead of converting 1d10 +1/level (max +5) with a cure light wounds, they straight up heal 1d6+1/level (max +5) .... the die is dropped 1 step down, but it works as the spell says otherwise. Charm person gives you a +10 bonus to your Charisma based skills against the target for the duration instead of making them an instant friend. There are no Create Food and Water or Create Water spells. Any spell that removes ability/level damage or cures status ailments like blindness, deafness, idiocy, and the like is moved up 1 spell level. Likewise any spell that inflicts ability/level damage or a status ailment is moved up 1 level. I am being VERY selective about "save or die" spells--- there's too many to bother with right now, but I don't have to worry about it right away-- the game starts at level 1. The Heal skill can be used in conjunction with the Remove Disease, Remove Curse, and Neutralize Poison spells. You can make a Heal check or a caster level check, whichever gives you the better result. I don't know if this will make the skill more useful or not, but I do want to make it viable--- any suggestions? as for arcane spells, I have no idea what to do. I dislike mechanics like Magic Missile, which automatically hits... I think it will do 1d6+1 damage and require a ranged touch attack, but otherwise be the same. Any other "save or die" or "instant hit" mechanics out there? I don't want to "nerf" magic, but I do want to make it more mysterious and frightening when it is used. Considering that Wizardry is a dying art, and Sorcerers breed less true with each passing generation, this shouldn't be too hard to do. I'm thinking with a perfect NPC population of 100, only 20 will be a PC class. Of those 20, only 1 will be a Wizard/Sorc, and only 2 will be a Cleric/Druid/Bard. PC's will each be creating their characters independently, without knowledge of each other's class, so this shouldn't be too much of an issue even if there are multiple casters. It will only make the party that much more feared/respected by the community, and really make those players feel special. I'm using the Aspect of Nature variant for Wild Shape, and Whirling Frenzy barbarians will be available without the additional attack. The Thug variant fighter combined with the sneak attack progression will be used, with the following changes: you get a Sneak Attack at 1st, 5th, 9th, 13th, 17th, and 20th level, with level 3, 7, 11, 15, and 19 getting a Fighter bonus feat. This variant is called the Bravo. Most of the other "ability swap" class variants will be available as well: DR Monks, Ranged Barbarians, Smiting Clerics, etc... There are no Detect {alignment} spells, nor any "hurt X alignment" spells. Instead I will be using a Taint system much like the one presented in the book. Any reference to Evil (alignment wise) in a spell or ability is replaced with Taint. I'm also planning on using the Armor as Damage Conversion and Class Based Defense Bonus rules as written, except you take the better of the two AC's. I'm using the Players Roll All the Dice rules as well, freeing me up to create really screwed up situations and lots of moral "gray" areas as well as intricate plots, interesting NPC's, etc. There are NO favored classes or alignments in this game... I really want to get into moral gray areas and explore what IS evil and WHY, but I'm not planning on delving too deeply into things like Exalted characters and whatnot--- it seems to me that I can do that by making my villains REALLY evil, something I am already somewhat good at. What do you think? Any suggestions? Comments? Anything you could think of to help me make a "grim n gritty" type of playing environment would help. Also, any guesses as to how all these rules will affect play would help immensely.
Masterful_Norg 03-30-04, 03:14 AM	I really like it and I think you did a good job. That does have a very gritty feel to it. Are you also using insanity rules with or without tweaks or is that mostly still at the player's option whether or not to go insane? I think that if you make the villains much like real people with problems rather than those who are empowered by darkness, because darkness is not very empowering at all. Fact is, its depressing. Nobody ever does evil for the sake of it unless they're insane or if they are actually have another agenda. They usually have very basic problems with expression, ballance and responsablity.
Kalender 03-30-04, 03:36 AM	FYI, I think there are some OGL rules for HP/Wounds that are called "Grim 'n Gritty". These may work well for you. If you wish, I think I have them somewhere. PM me and I can e-mail them to you, or try a google. You could also use the d20 Modern rules for HP and massive damage. They're also fine for subdual damage. I'm working in my own homebrewn setting, and reducing both magic availability and magical healing makes PC's be more careful, but also makes the setting more deadly. I like your ideas, go for it!
Laiqualasse 03-30-04, 10:00 AM	Definitely some cool ideas you've got there. I would most certainly include the insanity rules from UA, they give a really "gritty" feeling to the campaign IMO. It would be especially effective if you implemented one of the rules that takes away insanity from learning (and maybe even casting) spells since arcana isn't as well known in that campaign idea. Probably either low or moderate sanity loss since extreme would basically render arcane magic useless. As far as the villains go, I would go with the insane and the demented more than anything. It wouldn't be some BBEG sitting in his cliched tower and cackling to himself necessarily, but just people who are misguided or mentally imbalanced. Also, don't be afraid to explore the idea of "good" vs. "good". If you remove the alignment system, anything goes. It removes you from the idyllic D&D where all good characters get along and prance around in harmony and brings a sense of reality to it. [Edit: Also, I would look into using the "Bell Curve" rolling as detailed in Unearthed Arcana. It makes most rolls more "reliably average" and thus IMO grittier. With this variant, the monsters won't flub their chance to hurt the PCs as much with terrible rolls]
radu the wanderer 03-31-04, 07:01 PM	Thank you for the feedback, I appreciate it. I was considering using the Insanity rules when I get a bit better grasp on them... several re-readings later, they seem pretty solid. Plus, it has the benefit of making the Heal skill more useful, a primary objective for me... I believe I will adopt them and make ANY spell learned require sanity drain, but perhaps choke back a bit on it for Divine spellcasters... otherwise they'd freak every time they gained a level! I think I'm also changing a few irksome feats, ones that don't really fit the flavor. For example: Dodge is replaced by Defensive Stance, and only applies to melee attacks, but as a boost it provides a +1 dodge AC versus all melee attacks made against you. Mobility is replaced by Defensive Move, which gives a general +2 dodge bonus to AC during any turn you move, regardless of attacks of opportunity. Slightly weaker than Mobility, but still very nice, I think, especially because it's a general AC increase instead of a conditional. Spring Attack (Quite possibly THE most irritating feat EVER!) is replaced by Burst of Speed--- 3 times per day, you gain an additional move action. It can be taken multiple times, each time adding another 3 times per day. Toughness is replaced by Sturdy, from Arcana Unearthed (I won't post what it does for copyright reasons, but it is much better than Toughness, IMO). I know Spring Attack is a very popular feat, so before the flame wars begin, let me say I like it, and think it's a fun feat, but it really doesn't fit the flavor I'm shooting for. Denying attacks of opportunity isn't in line with the life and death combat style I want to encourage. The Expertise tree, however, is pretty much perfect. Disarms and Trips are very much in style, as are Sunders, so they still prevent AoO, but FEW things are as aggravating as a spring attacking polearm wielder. Especially two polearm wielding, spring attacking rogue types who flank you. If anyone has any suggestions for a relatively low magic system that doens't unduly punish players who want to play casters, can you give me a link or a quick summary?
Aman the Rejected 03-31-04, 07:57 PM	I loved Berserk and I give you kudos for wanting to torment your players as much as that :) Even the nicest looking fairy turns out to be just a ... well, never mind the spoilers :) I found a great way to do magic like you were thinking on a Story Hour on another site. I have included the url which includes the rules write up, it will require you to individualize spell casting though :) Finally, if you want grim and gritty, be sure to make the Uncanny Dodge ability (I believe that's the one where Reflex saves allow for no damage) to only give 1/4 damage on a successful save. That way no one Matrix dodges fireballs and lightning bolts. Hope this helps, keep me posted :D Unique look at magic (http://www.enworld.org/forums/showpost.php?p=1040108&postcount=112) AtR
DrKultra 04-15-04, 08:21 PM	Bump! Dont wanna loose this one yet.
Rosisha 04-15-04, 10:10 PM	I like some of your ideas and thought I'd put mine up so that you could compare and contrast: Religion Plenty of religion, no Gods. Thats right. None. Zero. Zip. No divine magic. I have a priest presteige class that combines bard skills with intuition type things that are good for a typical "Priest" to have, but thats it. Magic Necromancy is the only source of healing, but for every hit point healed, something organic has to take damage. Corpses are considered to have one hit point for each constitution point at death, corpses killed by draining constitution are not useful for necromantic healing. Otherwise, treat as normal clerical spells. Other then that, the only other serious change I made was to make Sorcerers into Blood Mages to make them actually a different class that is not designed to make wizards useless, and actually explain why their magic comes from their blood (in this case litterely!) Races Humans "Civilized" humans are treated as normal, these are humans that live in cities and towns and trace their cultural heritage to the empire of my world (think Rome). Barbarians become a cultural term, and not a class (which is instead changed into Dervish). However, the type of tribe you are from (Sea, Tundra, Desert, Plains, Mountains, or Forest) grants Barbarian characters some bonus weapons and access to one or two skills. To balance, these characters are illiterate and recieve a -2 to will saves against magic to represent their lack of understanding and dealing with magic. Elves The only elves I have in my world are from desert tribes. They still sleep, they do not meditate, and they are primarily nocturnal creatures. They are devoutely religious, tribal, and nomadic. However, there are tribes that are litterate and tribes that are not. Depends on the history of the tribe. Dwarves Intence competition and internal rivalries have taken a once proud state that competed with the human empire above, and instead, turned them into a factionalized group of people more interested in revenge and blood feuds then they are in culture and development. Along the lines of the Balkans. Gnomes Gnomes are not technically inclined as they are presented, nor are they pranksters. Rather, Gnomes are a deeply spiritual people, their culture is spread out through many of hte human and dwarven kingdoms, and their exact origins are unknown (DMs NOTE: Gnomes, as I see them, will have their origins in the Plane of Shadow). They are natural illusionists and use their talants to support their deep mystism. Still good with Alchemy. An excellent example would be the Bajorans (Sp?) from Deep Space 9. Halflings Distant genetic cousins to humans, Halflings tend to be found in artic regions [Use Artic Halfling from Unearthed Arcana]. They burrow deep into the ice and snow or near thermal vents to form ammazingly complex communities. Many, however, travel across the face of the world looking for adventure and trade. Half Elves As with standard half elves, they usually are not comfortable in either community, though they find more problems in the strict religious communities of the elves. Most end up living in human communities. Half Orcs None. No orcs exist in my world. Alingment and Such I firmly agree, no alingment. Moral ambiguity is a good thing, especially with no Gods. Classes Pretty much keep them the same with a few notes. All of the following classes are eliminated: Bard Monk Paladin The following classes are changed: Barbarian Ranger The Barbarian becomes the Dervish, and uses regional weapon lists that are still to be worked out. The idea is that different regions have different needs, and therefore will train their people in different weapons to help them survive the various regions of the world they are in. The Ranger looses their spells, but needs to gain different skills then the magicless version in Complete Warrior. I might simply revert back to the 3.0 Ranger but shift feats around. The following Classes are new: Blood Mage Shaman The Blood Mage replaces the sorcerer and is a class of my own creation. I can post it if anyone is interested. But it basically makes a character use their hit points to power their magic. Barbarian magic rather then "civilized" magic. The Shaman I took from Green Ronin Press with some changes, but their is a spirit world that the barbarian tribes can tap into. Anyway, I find that the gritty realism comes from the more difficulty in healing and the heavier mystisicm I place on magic. But if you want more details send me a PM. Rosisha
Francois_c3po 04-16-04, 04:18 AM	Some very interesting idea on how to make a game more bloody and less 'light fantasy' > The Heal skill can be used in conjunction with the Remove > Disease, Remove Curse, and Neutralize Poison spells. You can > make a Heal check or a caster level check, whichever gives you > the better result. I don't know if this will make the skill more > useful or not, but I do want to make it viable--- any > suggestions? You could have Heal give a synergy bonus to the caster level check, so most healers would want to have 5 ranks in Heal. Other possibility : make a heal check with a bonus equal to the caster level. About the massive damage threshold, the rule of d20 Modern is quite interesting : your threshold is egal to your CON but when you fail the saving throw you 'only' drop to -1 hp. No instant death but people are more likely to fell down.
Willie the Duck 04-17-04, 12:05 AM	I'm just going to point out my own personal experience: every attempt at making things "grittier" in any campaign I've ever been involved in has simply made the players either extremely cowardly wusses that never take a risk or amazingly brave, going through characters like tissues and never developing any real attachment to them.
Visanideth 04-29-04, 12:09 PM	I'm DM an extremely similar setting, with almost all the same options you mentioned. A few rules I'm using: - I use Class AC. Armors give both AC bonus and Damage Conversion. When wearing armor, you use the best bonus between the armor bonus and the class bonus, but the class bonus is reduced by -1 if you wear light armor, -2 if you wear medium and -3 if you wear heavy. - clerics are rare - all spellcasters are. Clerics are limited to a single cult. Their ability of casting spells is legendary (like making miracles). To become a cleric you need to go through extensive training - non lvl 1 cleric can be younger than 24-25 years. Most people will never see a cleric (they're like templars in the Middle Age). Priests and monks are experts. Maybe you can have Favored Souls (immense roleplaying opportunities). - no wizards. Sorcery is both a crime and a sin. Few sorcerers, hunted by the church. All spell lists are limited; ok to divination and enchantment, no fireball throwing. - no regeneration/restoration: you use a limb, it's gone for good. - no monsters: only animals and a few magical beasts. - dozens of new prcs. The good thing is, in a similar setting, if you throw in a single troll you're already creating a mysterious and potentially earth-shattering encounter.
Gnome of Power 05-27-04, 11:53 PM	take away bags of holding so that people will have trouble carrying stuff