Post/Author/DateTime	Post
JulesCARV 04-17-06, 03:04 PM	I find the fact that the first hit die is maximized and that skill points are quadrupled to be a somewhat distorting rule of the game. It makes some classes much more attractive as first-level classes than others. Specifically, the barbarian, rogue, and ranger are very good starter classes, because of their high hit die and/or skill points, while the sorceror and wizard, with their low hit die or skill points find it far less attractive. While a determined wizard or sorceror will still start that way, someone who plans on becoming, for instance, an arcane trickster will have a big incentive to start as a rogue and then become a wizard or sorceror later on, even if it makes more sense, from a story perspective or a usefulness-to-the-party perspective, to start as a sorceror or wizard. So here's my idea: -Hit die and skill points at first level are determined normally, as for other levels. -Although the first hit die is rolled normally, there is a maximum hit point floor of the maximized hit die + constitution modifier. It is the hit die roll, however, and not the floor, that is added to future hit dice. For example, a level 1 rogue rolls a 2 on his first hit die. His maximum hit points are still 6 + con at first level. At second level, he rolls a 5. His maximum hit points at second level are 7 + 2*con, not 11 + 2*con. The problem with this idea, though, is that it makes characters who derive most of their power from class features -- sorcerors, wizards, psions, clerics, etc -- more powerful compared to characters who depend on their hit points and skills. A 2nd level rogue with this system would have less than half the skill points of a 2nd level rogue in the current system, and only somewhat more than half the hit points. A sorceror, by contrast, retains all of his spellcasting ability. One might argue that since this largely evens out by higher levels, this is only really a disadvantage at low levels, and spellcasters tend to be bad at low levels anyway. However, it seems like there's nothing to compensate the more hit point and skill point dependent characters at higher levels. Any thoughts?
JulesCARV 04-17-06, 04:30 PM	I suppose an alternative solution would be to give the first level 4 bonus hit points (in lieu of maximizing the first hit die), and 12 + 3 int bonus skill points. So, for instance, a first level rogue would have 4 + 1d6 + con hit points and 12 + 3 int + 8 + int = 20 + 4 int skill points. It keeps its resemblance to the current system without biasing starting classes.
Verelor 04-17-06, 04:47 PM	Sorry to burst a bubble, but can anyone just bite the bullet and accept the fact that the different character classes each have their niches and definite strengths as well as weaknesses?
JulesCARV 04-17-06, 04:54 PM	I look forward to more details in your critique, and would certainly appreciate more commentary.
Verelor 04-17-06, 06:10 PM	Ok, several things. First, basically everyone is ok with PC and elite characters starting with a maximum first HD and maximum skill ranks at first. It makes little difference in the long run as it is. It makes wizards, sorcerers, druids, and clerics (all of these classes are already really strong, including the sorcerer, in my opinion :) ) even stronger, while the low level rogues and bards get a middle finger. :) Also, in the event it all does balance out at high levels, what's the point!? :P
RaspK FOG 04-17-06, 07:15 PM	Well, if one truly wanted to change the rules to make them realistic in terms of how your character progresses and still maintain the whole d20 thing, one should realise that levels are not the end-all-be-all of d20; in fact, in an article written by one of the designers of 3e, d20 is broken down in 3 principles: 6 ability scores, ranging from 1 to infinity, normally somewhere near the [3..18] bracket. Your basic roll is a d20 plus modifiers, trying to surpass a given number. Rolling higher is always better. Thus, one could create a d20 game where characters have wound points, injury levels, no character levels but a HD system based off of awarded XP, which would affect the maximum number of ranks you can have in any skill or when you gain an ability increase, etc. and really get as close to d10 as possible!
Bulletproof_Condom 04-17-06, 07:35 PM	So you're saying a 1st-level fighter's HP would be 10 + Con, but a 2nd-level fighter's HP would be 2d10 + 2Con? The only problem I can see is it appears to be unlikely but possible for a large-HD character to actually lose hp as a result of hitting 2nd level.
JulesCARV 04-17-06, 10:17 PM	So you're saying a 1st-level fighter's HP would be 10 + Con, but a 2nd-level fighter's HP would be 2d10 + 2Con? The only problem I can see is it appears to be unlikely but possible for a large-HD character to actually lose hp as a result of hitting 2nd level. I never said that the hit point floor disappeared at second level. If a fighter rolls 2d10 for second level, and gets a three and a one, and has a constitution of 14, then the fighter would still have 12 hit points, not 8. He wouldn't change at all from 1st to 2nd level. Though really, I'm finding that I don't like the original post's proposal as much, due to the fact that it weakens 1st level characters. I'm thinking I prefer the "roll first hit die, but add four (or so) bonus hit points, and determine 1st level skill points normally, but add 12 + 3 int in addition to class skill point + int" system I proposed in my second post. Well, if one truly wanted to change the rules to make them realistic in terms of how your character progresses and still maintain the whole d20 thing, one should realise that levels are not the end-all-be-all of d20; in fact, in an article written by one of the designers of 3e, d20 is broken down in 3 principles: 6 ability scores, ranging from 1 to infinity, normally somewhere near the [3..18] bracket. Your basic roll is a d20 plus modifiers, trying to surpass a given number. Rolling higher is always better. Thus, one could create a d20 game where characters have wound points, injury levels, no character levels but a HD system based off of awarded XP, which would affect the maximum number of ranks you can have in any skill or when you gain an ability increase, etc. and really get as close to d10 as possible! Sure. I have more modest objectives, though: keeping 99.9% of basic D&D's system, and slightly tweaking the balance between a rogue 1/sorceror 1 and a sorceror 1/rogue 1. :)
Malchi 04-17-06, 11:51 PM	To Balance it out even more you should let all classes cast spells at 1st level too. Spellcasting classes are unbalanced because they get to cast spells at level 1. All classes should get an additional feat at first level too, so that fighters don't have an advantage over other classes.
JulesCARV 04-18-06, 02:03 AM	To Balance it out even more you should let all classes cast spells at 1st level too. Spellcasting classes are unbalanced because they get to cast spells at level 1. All classes should get an additional feat at first level too, so that fighters don't have an advantage over other classes. It doesn't matter whether you take a fighter level or a wizard level at 1st level or 2nd level, as far as bonus feats or spellcasting are concerned. A rogue 1/wizard 1 casts spells just like a wizard 1/rogue 1. A fighter 1/ranger 1 has the same number of feats as a ranger 1/fighter 1.
kelvinaw273 04-18-06, 05:20 AM	There are rules for '0 level' multiclasses which may be more realistic if the DM wishes to introduce them, so a character can start at level 1/2 in both of the classes they wish to progress in.
Degobah 04-18-06, 08:28 AM	I agree with JulesCarv. There's a definite difference between multiclass choices, depending on the order you take the classes. It has nothing to do with everyone having spells or getting bonus feats. If I, as an obsessed min/maxer from way back, want to create a fighter/rogue, rogue HAS to be the class you take first. And the characters' background has to be custom-crafted to fit. The Rogue 1/Fighter 1 has about the same skill points as a Fighter 1/Rogue 4...taking rogue second drains 24 skill points from the second character. Which makes it inviable. The HP difference is meaninglessly low by higher levels, so the fighter characters only advantage is that their +1 BAB widens their feat choices slightly (e.g. Weapon Finesse at 1st level). While I agree with the problem, I don't actually like the proposed solutions. My favourite houserule for the skill points problem is to give x1 at all levels and bonus skill points equal to the INT score to spend on "commoner skills" from before they were an adventurer. For HP maxing, I don't really thing its too critical.
Grey_Mage 04-26-06, 08:08 PM	It doesn't matter whether you take a fighter level or a wizard level at 1st level or 2nd level, as far as bonus feats or spellcasting are concerned. A rogue 1/wizard 1 casts spells just like a wizard 1/rogue 1. A fighter 1/ranger 1 has the same number of feats as a ranger 1/fighter 1. Actually thats not true... a Fighter 1/ Wizard 1 will have 10+con+1d4+con hitpoints... while a Wizard 1/ Fighter 1 will have 4+con+1d10+con hitpoints... and thats only if you make them second level... if you make it first level... then they didnt have the ability to cast spells for their first level... and how did they get the training? :rolleyes: On the other hand they might not have the hitpoints to have survived their first level if theyd taken wizard instead of fighter.... and once again how did you learn to wield that broadsword again? No... the 0 level classes system works much better.
JulesCARV 04-26-06, 08:27 PM	Actually thats not true... a Fighter 1/ Wizard 1 will have 10+con+1d4+con hitpoints... while a Wizard 1/ Fighter 1 will have 4+con+1d10+con hitpoints... and thats only if you make them second level... if you make it first level... then they didnt have the ability to cast spells for their first level... and how did they get the training? :rolleyes: On the other hand they might not have the hitpoints to have survived their first level if theyd taken wizard instead of fighter.... and once again how did you learn to wield that broadsword again? No... the 0 level classes system works much better. You seem to believe that we're disagreeing here, when actually, as far as I can tell, you're saying the same thing that I've been saying. I was replying to Malchi, who wrote "To Balance it out even more you should let all classes cast spells at 1st level too. Spellcasting classes are unbalanced because they get to cast spells at level 1. All classes should get an additional feat at first level too, so that fighters don't have an advantage over other classes." He was almost certainly being sarcastic, but I was just pointing out where his logic fell apart. As far as feats and casting spells go -- the two things with which Malchi is concerned -- a wizard 1/fighter 1 and a fighter 1/wizard 1 are identical. They have the same number of feats, and can cast the same number of spells. The entire problem that I have is the fact that there is such a difference between a ranger 1/wizard 1 and a wizard 1/ranger 1. If you take the ranger level first, you have 16 more skill points and 2 more hit points (average) than the person who takes the wizard level first. My point is that it creates a restriction -- or if not a restriction, a burden -- on roleplaying, because people think, "Okay! My character concept is a young wizard who got kicked out of the Arcane College for his disruptive and undisciplined behavior, and resorted to a life of adventure, and picked up roguish skills from his wild, adventurous life, before eventually becoming an Arcane Trickster. Wait... wait... my backstory means that my character takes the wizard level first, and the rogue level second: that's going to hurt my skill points a lot and my hit points a bit too: better rewrite my concept so that he started off as a rogue." There are some cases in which I don't mind gameplay mechanics dictating character concept in a sense. For example, a stupid wizard isn't a viable character concept. Still, there's no reason that a wizard who becomes a rogue should be a less viable concept than a rogue who becomes a wizard. So I say give them normal skill points and make them roll, rather than maximize, their first hit die, but give them 12 bonus skill points and and 4 bonus hit points as a special first level deal.
FlameLover 04-26-06, 10:20 PM	I'd just make it this: - Normal skills. No bonus ones either. So you get class skill points + int bonus to spend. The skill cap is your HD for class skills and 1/2 HD for cross-class skills. All skill prereqs for feats and PrCs are lowered by 3. - Your first hit die, and every one that level thereafter, is the average (rounded up) of the die. d4 = 3, d6 = 4, d8 = 5, d10 = 6, d12 = 7. I already do the second in my games, and i'm seriously considering the first. I say no bonuses but giving an extra 4+int to spend on "background" skills would work fine. Stuff like Proffesion (con artist) or Knowledge (Drug Cartels).
calvinNhobbes 05-10-06, 12:13 PM	I think the main thing to remember when picking your first level class is the x4 skill points are best spent with the class skills in mind. For example, say you are rogue 1 with +3 intelligience but plan to multiclass to rogue 1/wizard 1. You get alot of skill points at first level, but it makes sense to spend them on rogue class skills. You could use some for Concentration and Spellcraft to help out your eventual wizard class, but that is really inefficient. If you want to be a powerful wizard who also has a few rogue skills it may be better to start as a wizard instead so you can max out those important wizard skills and then each time you add a level of rogue use those skill points to focus on a few key rogue skills you want, like Use Magic Device. This same thing can be applied to the fighter/rogue situation. Perhaps you want to be a "Zoro" type character with high ranks in Ride and Handle animal. It might be better to start as a fighter and use those x4 skill points to max out those skills and then whenever you decide to add a level of rogue, use the 8+ skill points to add some key skills like Tumble or Move Silently. The first level you choose is the most important for setting the framework of who your character will be, as it should since in theory your character has spent years training to gain that first level. Of course alot of this (from a min/max perspective) has to do with what INT modifier your character has and how many class skills overlap between the two classes.
starfire311 05-11-06, 12:03 AM	I havent worried too much aboutt he HP thing, although it is interesting... one thing I ahve done in the past was instead of quadruple SP at 1st level they got double SP for the 1st 3 levels. We dont roll HP, we do max at 1st then 1/2HD round up at every level after 1st so a barbarian would get 12+7+7+7 for the 1st 4 levels or 23 Something you could do is start them at 3/4s HD and then at 2nd level give them a bonus 1/4 HD so barbarian D12 would start with 9+Con mod HP then at second level they would get 3+D12+Con Mod HP... or you can even do it crazier and divide the bonus HP over 4 levels and have them roll their HD*.75 each level so for example Barbarian D12 with con of 14 1st level 3+2(con) + (1D12*.75) 2nd level 3+2(con) + (1D12*.75) 3rd level 3+2(con) + (1D12*.75) 4th level 3+2(con) + (1D12*.75) 5th level 2(con)+ 1D12
Darth Sephiroth 05-11-06, 01:16 AM	Well you could also have people who start as a Sorcerer or Wizard having a Familiar and Spellbook rather than going through the trouble of aquiring one. Same sort of thing with the Druids Animal Companion. Make sure people know that things like that apply at the start. Plus very few Spellcasters take levels that don't give them any spellcasting benefit because it means that they don't get as many of their highest level spells (Or none at all)
Archangel62 05-11-06, 01:33 AM	Well, the idea of the maxed hitdie and skillpoints is basically this, this was their main training ground, where they started out from. The way I see it this was sort of their formative period, their time to be 'Train in the academy, trained by the guild, trained by the church, etc' this is where they had the groundwork of themselves set up. It is where they spent a lot of time training and studying.
The_Levitator 05-11-06, 05:56 AM	I have one group of old school gamers that prefer to roll straight 3d6's for stats and straight rolls for HP. My other group wants a little help at lower levels without being spoonfed so I set up HP like this for them: 1d4 char. - roll 1d2+2 (3-4 hp) 1d6 char. - roll 1d4+3 (4-6 hp) 1d8 char. - roll 1d4+4 (5-8 hp) 1d10 char. - roll 1d4+6 (7-10 hp) 1d12 char. - roll 1d6+6 (7-12 hp) It gives characters enough variety to avoid the clone feel, and players can still get excited about making max. rolls. We use the Traits system (from Iron Heroes) with the old schoolers so they can buff up their ability scores a bit. Believe it or not, one of my "old schoolers" actually loves playing a 1 HP 1st level wizard. He likes the challenge and always says his wizard has no business in battle. That is, until he gets him up around 4th-5th. It's probably worth mentioning that spellcasters in our game don't have to hop on 1 foot while speaking in tongues and juggling to cast spells either. Simple words and gestures makes them a little less obvious to enemies which helps take the bullseye off their chests (another Iron Heroes concept). I solved my dilemma by just discussing it with my players, including the pros and cons of each "system" and let them decide how they wanted to play it. That's why I have 2 groups ( who have more differences than HP generation and ability score preferences), so I can try and keep everyone happy. :D
Sereno 05-11-06, 11:25 AM	My point is that it creates a restriction -- or if not a restriction, a burden -- on roleplaying, because people think, "Okay! My character concept is a young wizard who got kicked out of the Arcane College for his disruptive and undisciplined behavior, and resorted to a life of adventure, and picked up roguish skills from his wild, adventurous life, before eventually becoming an Arcane Trickster. Wait... wait... my backstory means that my character takes the wizard level first, and the rogue level second: that's going to hurt my skill points a lot and my hit points a bit too: better rewrite my concept so that he started off as a rogue." Why is that, in any way, a restriction? Just because the character got kicked out of Wizard College and decided to become a rogue doesn't mean that his first level had to be wizard. He got kicked out ... so, he never "graduated" to 1st level. He's had the basic training, but didn't finish his classes because he was a joker and a jerk. So, he goes out into the world and actually becomes a 1st level rogue. Then, realizing that he misses the arcane magic, he studies on his own (remembering everything he learned in WC, possibly stealing a couple of books or climbing the walls of the WC to listen in to a lecture or two) and gains his first actual level in wizard. That fits the above character concept perfectly, makes sense, and still allows you full access to the starting rogue skill boost.
SilvercatMoonpaw 05-11-06, 05:04 PM	I don't know how much help I can be, but I've seen both the HD and the skill points buffed up for spellcasters and others. Monte Cook's Arcana series does away with d4 HD to make spellcasters less vulnerable. Szatany's Ultimate Class series has a baseline of 4 + Int mod for skills. But there is something else to consider: people don't always start out their lives studying magic. Sorcerers discover their talent whenever. Wizards have to spend a good deal of time studying to be what they are. Having rogue as your first level is reasonable unless you come from a background that would allow idle time for magic study. The D&D system is lazy in terms of creating wizards: "Oh, I've been taking magic lessons on the side." I would suggest that as a way to encourage 1st level spellcasters that you enforce a long learning time: the player has to make clear one level before they take a level in wizard or sorcerer that they are doing something towards learning their magic or they can't take the next level in that class. Even for sorcerers do not allow "retroactive" learning.
Cifer 05-12-06, 11:25 AM	Even for sorcerers do not allow "retroactive" learning. I have always regarded sorcerers as spontaneous casters, rather surprised by finding out about their abilities. Thus, we would not have learning at all here but rather someone who finds out (shortly after acquiring a level in Sorcerer) that he can shoot strange thingies (yeah, the wizard calls them magic missiles, but who cares about him?) out of his fingertips.
Xeviat-DM 05-12-06, 04:59 PM	One great idea was stated here; for classes with very lower HD and lower SP, just make note of other class abilities that they get automatically at first level. For instance, a wizard gets their spell book for free, and gets 3+Int mod in free spells; someone who just levels up into wizard would have to buy their book and would only get 2 spells for free (as normal for wizard leveling). Now, in the case of the arcane trickster, this hardly pays for the extra 24 skill points and extra 2 hp, but I have to play devil's advocate for a second. Last time I played an arcane trickster, we did start the game at 2nd level, and I did have rogue be my first level. With a base Int of 15 (we were using default array), I knew I would have room for 7 maximized arcane trickster skills (because I'd kick up my Int at 4th level). I carefully planned out the first few levels before I reached Arcane Trickster, and I'll tell you that I did "lose" many skill points through buying cross class skills. I bought cross class ranks in concentration, spellcraft, and knowledge (arcana), which took two rogue levels to "maximize" (my 3rd level, which was rogue 2, finished maximizing my wizard skills, since my new maximum was higher due to them being class skills for one class). About the d20 to d10 transition; I'm working on a XP = Character Point transition for d20, still using class levels but having characters purchase ability score increases, feats, and skills separately from their level progression. If I do this, I'll change the way multiclassing works; in order to multiclass, you'll need to purchase certain skills (for example, appropriate knowledges for caster classes) to represent the training you are recieving.
TavishArtair 06-16-06, 11:44 PM	What if everyone had a baseline, default 1st level? That is, everyone had to take a level of the same class, effectively, to start off with. We wouldn't even necessarily have to count this for XP purposes, but the idea of having a "level" makes it easier to explain. This first "level" could be worth, I don't know, 8 HP, maybe, and perhaps 16 base (4+Int) skill points, or less. This would apply to everyone who had a level of any PC class and did not have HD from another source... we could disregard this for most humanoids, but a 1st level orc fighter might still get the same. Yes, it would bump them up slightly, but probably not enough to have a dramatic impact.
Cheza 06-19-06, 09:45 AM	I think the "first level rule" already represents 4 normal levels of a specific class. So if you are a lvl-1 wizard, you already are at level 4. The first three levels however ain't openly shown. So you get 4 times your normal skillpoints and 2 times your average hitpoints (2x averave HPs = 1x maximized HPs). This represents childhood. If you don't like it, just add 3 levels of an generic class that doesn't count towards the HD of your character or on multiclass penalities. I would hardly suggest something "commoner class" like. So your 1st-lvl characters will add 3x (2+Int) skillpoints and 7 HPs (= average roll of 3x d4). The fourth level (the first specific class) will be added normally.
starfire311 06-19-06, 02:34 PM	I think the "first level rule" already represents 4 normal levels of a specific class. So if you are a lvl-1 wizard, you already are at level 4. The first three levels however ain't openly shown. So you get 4 times your normal skillpoints and 2 times your average hitpoints (2x averave HPs = 1x maximized HPs). This represents childhood. If you don't like it, just add 3 levels of an generic class that doesn't count towards the HD of your character or on multiclass penalities. I would hardly suggest something "commoner class" like. So your 1st-lvl characters will add 3x (2+Int) skillpoints and 7 HPs (= average roll of 3x d4). The fourth level (the first specific class) will be added normally. adding levels is similar to an idea I ahve been kicking around for awhile. This was to use D20 modern rules for D&D. For example you would have the attribute clsses like D20 modern, and then I would convert all teh D&D base classes to advanced classes with minimum Level 3 requirements to get into them, so you couldnt take your 1st level in barbarian until 4th level for example. BUt you culd be a strong 3/barbarian 1 or Smart 3/Wizard 1 this would nerf spellcasters a bit by losing 3 caster levels, I was thinking abouot offsetting that in someway by giving them more special abilities, but I havent come up with the wizard advanced class yet so not sure how I would handle it.
Hochiu 06-19-06, 03:09 PM	The only thing about the skill points quadrupled is that they represent EVERYTHING that is learned up til that point, I believe. That's why specific classes have more of a starting allocation of skills then others. There's a starting age for a reason, and it's not entirely unrealistic to assume that the first fifteen years of someones life is represented by the X 4 in the 1st level skill point calculation.
Thelon Fairblade 06-20-06, 09:41 AM	I think the idea of a "Base Set" of hp and skill points is a nifty idea. Say, all 1st level PC classes come with 8 HP, 16 skill points, Simple Weapon Prof; access to Profession, Craft as class skills at this level. Wizards get a spellbook and initial spells, rogues get 16 more skill points, fighters get weapon and armor training, paladins get weapon armor training, clerics get armor training, sorcerers get their familiar, Rangers get weapon training and armor training, Bards get weapon and armor training and their first instrument, barbarians get weapon and armor training and their first weapon, monks get improved unarmed strike and all their initial gear. Any character multiclassing into a new class after 1st level does *not* get these 1st level benefits. I.e. a Wizard 1 gets his spellbook and initial spells, but does not gain all weapons and all armor when he takes Fighter 1; he just gets the hp, BAB, and feat! Likewise that Rogue 1 with 32 initial skills multiclasses into Wizard to become an Arcane Trickster... he has no spellbook and no bonus 6 spells already detailed within it. I am in a campaign that did something much like this, in fact. We all (every player) had a "Level 0, Juvenile Delinquent" added to our characters. We got 2hp + CON bonus, 4+INT bonus skill points (with a reduced rogue class skill list), and a +1 bonus to a single save of our choice. This was a straight powerup, of course, but not game breaking at all. My druid had 4 ranks in Tumble -- but it was not a true class skill, and I couldn't get that 5th rank until Druid 7 -- plus 1 rank of Heal and 1 rank of Profession/Nursing. I also had 4 extra hits (14 Con), and a +1 extra bonus to my Fort save ("from resistances built up by being a part-time nurse at the free clinic"...). IMC, I require all characters to pre-plan their next level. So when they reach 3rd level, they get what they had planned out (and presumably were spending their off-time working on), and tell me what they are doing for 4th level. This includes feats, spell acquisition, attribute increases, as well as skill allotments. (I also allow them to freely change things around for the first 3 levels, actually, and after that they can still switch with the expenditure of time -- if you suddenly find yourself on a long sea voyage, you aren't trapped into that 4 point boost to Ride, and there's plenty of time to pick up Profession/Sailor!). You could take this concept, over 2 or 3 levels, and spread out the hp and skill points for each level. This is essentially the DMG-suggested "multiclassing at 1st level" rule. If you are a Rogue1 / Wizard1 in your planning, that's (8+2)/2 = 5 skp per level, and (6+4)/2 = d5 hp per level. At 1st level you get 5hp and 20 (plus 4*INT) skp, regardless of whether you play Rogue or Wizard at first. At 2nd level, you get d5 more hp, and 5 (+INT) more skp.
Tequila_Sunrise 06-21-06, 08:52 PM	Jules, you've missed the most simple and obvious solution: when a character multiclasses, allow them to figure their stats each separately with the assumption that each stat was maximized due to being the character's first level. For example, a wizard decides to work toward arcane trickster and so takes a level of rogue. You don't want this player to feel outted because she didn't take a level of rogue first and then wizard so you tell her to redo hp. A d6 maximized, and then roll a d4. Then, tell her to figure how many skill points she would have, had she taken her first level as rogue. Subtract her current skill points and vwallah! She gets a few more skill points than she 'should' get and is now a rogue 1/wizard 1 instead of a wizard 1/rogue 1. Btw, this is the system that I use...it also makes it a lot easier to create multilevelled NPCs.
Thelon Fairblade 06-23-06, 11:31 AM	That's basically the "average level 1 and level 2 together" solution. Simple, only one rule, requires a touch of preplanning.
JulesCARV 06-23-06, 02:50 PM	Tequila Sunrise -- so, in the case of a fighter/rogue, the character would take his fighter level first for the purposes of his maximized hit die, and his rogue level first for the purposes of his skill points?
Tequila_Sunrise 06-26-06, 01:12 AM	Tequila Sunrise -- so, in the case of a fighter/rogue, the character would take his fighter level first for the purposes of his maximized hit die, and his rogue level first for the purposes of his skill points? Exactly.
JulesCARV 07-22-06, 09:08 PM	BTW, I just thought I'd post that I've refined and consolidated some of my ideas, combining them with a new system of NPC classes. The new post includes the first level system as well as ideas for pre-adult progression and new NPC classes. (http://boards1.wizards.com/showthread.php?t=657787)
Goldenloveninja 08-20-06, 02:36 AM	I agree too, Tequila Sunrise. Although I also like the "starter package" type system, I think I prefer the re-total hp and skills way. However, it looks like a bookkeeping nightmare. Maybe they can "swap-out" hit dice, ie a mage gains a barbarian level, his full 4-hp first lvl dice turns to 12, and he rolls a 4 sided dice for this level (ie, gains 8+d4 hp). I guess a character sheet needs a new blank for full hit dice and 1st level skills (to better see when they change and what they change to). Nathan
Tequila_Sunrise 08-20-06, 11:35 PM	I agree too, Tequila Sunrise. Although I also like the "starter package" type system, I think I prefer the re-total hp and skills way. However, it looks like a bookkeeping nightmare. Maybe they can "swap-out" hit dice, ie a mage gains a barbarian level, his full 4-hp first lvl dice turns to 12, and he rolls a 4 sided dice for this level (ie, gains 8+d4 hp). I guess a character sheet needs a new blank for full hit dice and 1st level skills (to better see when they change and what they change to). Nathan I use average hp, so the 1st level HD 'swap out' isn't complicated. 1st level skills aren't complicated either, just add the skill point difference. (fighter to rogue = 6)
Goldenloveninja 08-21-06, 12:38 AM	If you're "refilling" the skill points, as if the character gains skills as a first level rogue, then its a difference of 6x4=24 rather than 6. Do you mean that characters get average hit points at first level too, rather than a full hit dice?
Jodjod 08-25-06, 02:59 AM	Absolutely easy-peasy-lemon-squeezy solution: - First level hitpoints = constitution score. Roll afterwards as normal for class. - First level skillpoints = intelligence score x2.
Tequila_Sunrise 08-26-06, 12:49 AM	If you're "refilling" the skill points, as if the character gains skills as a first level rogue, then its a difference of 6x4=24 rather than 6. Do you mean that characters get average hit points at first level too, rather than a full hit dice? I'm not good at explaining this stuff in detail thru postings. What I mean is that each total would be recalculated independantly, based on which is most advantageous for the character to maximize/quadruple at first level. If you want, you can define that statement in legal terms and post it for everyone's benefit.
fatal error 08-26-06, 01:13 AM	I think I might have a simple solution to this trouble of skill points, if not hit points (though I don't think the hit points are as big a deal, since they are rolled every level anyway, there's a large area for luck to have had more influence than your first level by level 6). Instead of getting 4x skill points and a max of 4 ranks at level one, you get 2x skill points, and a max of 2. At 2nd level, you then get 2x skill points again, to a max of 4. And at 3 you get 2x skill points a third time, and have a max ranks of 6. Essentially you just spread out those bonus skill points over the course of 3 levels. Now, it is still better to go rogue/wizard/rogue/wizard, but not by the same margin as it is currently better to go rogue/wizard rather than wizard/rogue. This system could be further altered to give these 'extra skill levels' at some other level. For example, you could get 2x skill points and +1 max rank at 1st, then 2x skill points and +1 max rank at 6th, and finally 2x skill points and +1 max rank at 12th, if you wanted to.
Goldenloveninja 08-28-06, 02:12 AM	How's this for legalese of one of these house rules? "When a character gains the first level in a base class after the first, she compares the Hit Die size of the new class with that of her other base classes. If the new class has the largest sized hit die, then the character gains the difference between the new Hit Die and the second largest Hit Die as extra hitpoints, as well as rolling for new hitpoints. Likewise, she compares skill points per level with all other base classes. If her new class has the highest skill points granted per level, then she gains the difference between the skill point count of the new base class and the second highest skill points granted per level, times four. This ensures that characters are on equal footing, regardless of the order that base classes are taken in. Prestige classes do not count for these calculations, as they cannot be taken at first level" PEACH please: my first real attempt at DnD legalese Nathan
FeceMan 08-29-06, 01:53 PM	I want to play a fighter with two HP at first level. This system seems overly complicated...call me stupid, but I don't really understand the concept of the "hitpoint floor". [And the other systems people have introduced are a one-way road to a headache should I travel down them in an attempt to correctly understand the rules and the twisted logic that invented them.] Despite this, the implementation of this system really, really hampers classes that depend on their skill points (like rogues or bards) and potentially cripples any class that depends on its hitpoints.
Tequila_Sunrise 08-30-06, 03:00 PM	I want to play a fighter with two HP at first level. Not sure why you'd want to do this but what's the problem? Just roll for your hp (chances are you'll get at least 2) and then just voluntarily lower it to 2...assuming your Con is 10-11. This system seems overly complicated...call me stupid, but I don't really understand the concept of the "hitpoint floor". [And the other systems people have introduced are a one-way road to a headache should I travel down them in an attempt to correctly understand the rules and the twisted logic that invented them.] Despite this, the implementation of this system really, really hampers classes that depend on their skill points (like rogues or bards) and potentially cripples any class that depends on its hitpoints. I totally agree. However, if you want to fix the problem that this thread is trying to fix and you don't like my simple solution I think you're up the creek without a paddle. I sincerely wish you luck in finding a better/simpler solution.