"Provoke Undead" [Archive] - Wizards Community

"Provoke Undead" [Archive] - Wizards Community

Post/Author/DateTime Post
LadyAlaria
06-05-07, 04:07 PM I believe your typical fighting cleric or paladin wants to destroy undead, rather than just make them run away. And in the movies when the exorcist-type presents his holy symbol forcefully, the demon is as likely to attack as it is to flee. Ergo, I am considering adding "Provoke" to the list of ways a cleric can use his turning capability. However, Provoking is a more powerful effect than Turning, since it usually will lead to the demise of the victim.

Proposed: A cleric who wishes to Provoke Undead may use one of his turning attempts to do so. For purposes of the turning check, the undead creature is treated as though they have two HD of Turning Resistance. If the cleric succeeds in the check, the victim is provoked into attacking the cleric and the cleric's party for the same duration of time as he would otherwise be "turned". If the check fails there is no effect whatsoever.

Evil and Neutral clerics may also Provoke in exactly the same manner. Any creatures that may be turned, such as elementals, can be provoked as well.

Sound reasonable? Is two HD sufficient penalty, or is it going to break at high levels?
TheAnthroDM
06-05-07, 04:31 PM Make it into a divine feat maybe? :thinks:

Provoke Undead[Divine]
You are able to use the power of your deity to provoke undead into attacking you.
Benefit: By spending two turn undead attempts you can provoke an undead creature into attacking you for a number of rounds equal to your charisma modifier.
Rhialto
06-05-07, 05:23 PM I'm not quite sure why you'd want to use this. I mean, if you encounter the undead, chances are pretty certain that they were going to attack you anyway.

To me, turn undead was intended as a way to give you a fighting chance against overwhelming odds. Imagne a horde of 500 zombies, and the only way to get past them is to turn enough of them to clear a path.

ETA: I have seen some variant cleric rules which allow the cleric to use his turn undead ability to harm the undead directly, rather than drive them back. That probably works better for what you are trying to achieve here.
LadyAlaria
06-05-07, 08:44 PM I'm not quite sure why you'd want to use this. I mean, if you encounter the undead, chances are pretty certain that they were going to attack you anyway.

Once you get past the skeletons and zombies, most undead are reasonably intelligent. I try to DM them as such.

So my average incorporeal undead spends most of his time inside a marble monument, peering out from time to time. When the party approaches he moans of the party's impending destruction. Then he flits about from haven to haven, using his incorporealness to best advantage and waiting for an opportunity to ambush. If sorely wounded he'll retreat, leaving the party with no way to truly "exorcise" him from the area.

And undead aren't the only things subject to turning. [/QUOTE]

To me, turn undead was intended as a way to give you a fighting chance against overwhelming odds. Imagne a horde of 500 zombies, and the only way to get past them is to turn enough of them to clear a path.

Nothing wrong with that. But it's not the only use for undead.

ETA: I have seen some variant cleric rules which allow the cleric to use his turn undead ability to harm the undead directly, rather than drive them back. That probably works better for what you are trying to achieve here.

Not really.

The specific reason this comes up is that my party's next adventure will require them to remove a wraith that is haunting a mausoleum. Turning is useless - the wraith will merely sink into the ground, safe from further harm. Unless the party can kill it in one round, it will simply retreat when it gets to a certain hit point level. So how can the party succeed?
TheAnthroDM
06-05-07, 08:49 PM The specific reason this comes up is that my party's next adventure will require them to remove a wraith that is haunting a mausoleum. Turning is useless - the wraith will merely sink into the ground, safe from further harm. Unless the party can kill it in one round, it will simply retreat when it gets to a certain hit point level. So how can the party succeed?

To my knowledge turning undead passes through any barrier not specifically geared against it.
LadyAlaria
06-05-07, 09:15 PM To my knowledge turning undead passes through any barrier not specifically geared against it.

So the wraith flees for a few rounds. He'll come back later. The party has still failed to exorcise the mausoleum. And no one is having fun.
TheAnthroDM
06-05-07, 09:50 PM So the wraith flees for a few rounds. He'll come back later. The party has still failed to exorcise the mausoleum. And no one is having fun.

Well this is true. But to my knowledge most undead do not regenerate health so it'll be damaged from the turning. For this particular case I do think that the Divine feat I outlined above could be put to good use, if with some modification as you see fit. This could be exactly what you're looking for.
CrazyOzzy
06-07-07, 01:06 PM I believe your typical fighting cleric or paladin wants to destroy undead, rather than just make them run away. And in the movies when the exorcist-type presents his holy symbol forcefully, the demon is as likely to attack as it is to flee. Ergo, I am considering adding "Provoke" to the list of ways a cleric can use his turning capability. However, Provoking is a more powerful effect than Turning, since it usually will lead to the demise of the victim.

Proposed: A cleric who wishes to Provoke Undead may use one of his turning attempts to do so. For purposes of the turning check, the undead creature is treated as though they have two HD of Turning Resistance. If the cleric succeeds in the check, the victim is provoked into attacking the cleric and the cleric's party for the same duration of time as he would otherwise be "turned". If the check fails there is no effect whatsoever.

Evil and Neutral clerics may also Provoke in exactly the same manner. Any creatures that may be turned, such as elementals, can be provoked as well.

Sound reasonable? Is two HD sufficient penalty, or is it going to break at high levels?

I like the idea LadyAlaria.

I see a very good use for it : Undead Creature attacks [INSERT SOFT PARTY TARGET HERE] - Cleric Provokes Undead - Undead Creature attacks Cleric - Cleric tanks Undead Creature and [INSERT SOFT PARTY TARGET HERE] lives.

Allow the Undead Creature a Will Save perhaps.
jimpaladin
06-10-07, 11:34 PM Are you worried that the party will become upset if the undead don't flee? I think it's a good idea, and if you don't want alot of legwork you could use the optional turning in Complete Divine. It does automatic damage to undead instead of "turning" them. This would "provoke" me if I was an intelligent undead. I would track down the SOB that caused pain to my immortal form and show him why he shouldn't mess with me.

And like I stated at the top, have the undead "hate" something about the party. you know time of day, certain color or religous memoroblia<sp>, etc. Even state it is unhallowed ground due to the undead being there making the turning harder.

I always liked the scene in Salem's Lot when the priest presents the cross forcefully and the Vampire is held at bay. But the priest loses his belief in his religon and the cross slowly fades as the Vampire comes toward the priest.:D Take that mister pc cleric man:cool:
LadyAlaria
06-11-07, 12:32 AM I like the idea LadyAlaria.

I see a very good use for it : Undead Creature attacks [INSERT SOFT PARTY TARGET HERE] - Cleric Provokes Undead - Undead Creature attacks Cleric - Cleric tanks Undead Creature and [INSERT SOFT PARTY TARGET HERE] lives.

Very good idea.

Allow the Undead Creature a Will Save perhaps.

That's one more roll, on top of the two rolls already required. I figure the 2hd bonus ("turn resistance") represents the fact that this is a somewhat more powerful effect, and thus merits a more difficult roll.
Light_Colonel
06-11-07, 09:21 AM Usually our gaming group deals with annoying incorporeal undead thusly:

Initiative Sequence:

FighterA
Rogue
FighterB
Undead
Wizard
Cleric

We will assume the situation is like you are describing, it shows up, attacks for a bit, gets wounded and leaves. No problem........

FighterA: "I delay until after the Undead"
Rogue: "I delay until after the Undead"
FighterB: "I delay until after the Undead"
Undead: *attacks and/or moves*

Now, if the Undead is being a jerk and doing the "move into an object and back out" trick over and over, at this point everyone (now going after the Undead) readies for the Undead to move out of hiding and attack/cast at it.

On the other hand, if the Undead is still just standing there, everyone attacks/casts, in all likelyhood killing it.
Werral
06-11-07, 07:10 PM Slowly the mist coalessed and the terrifying form of the Vampire Sorcerer stood before the party.

"So adventurers what have you to say?"

The Cleric raised the sun symbol of Pelor and said,

"In the name of Pelor I say you're a pansy and your mother does chuuls for copper pieces so she does."
Cariyaga
06-12-07, 05:02 AM And the Vampire Sorcerer screamed in agony, "NoOoOoOoOoOoOoO! I'm melting!"

The witty rogue says to the cleric, "Hey, I didn't know insults could hurt that much!"

The priest replies, "When it comes from a cleric of Pelor, it can."

And there was much rejoicing in the nearby town.
Sunic_Flames
06-12-07, 02:48 PM Slowly the mist coalessed and the terrifying form of the Vampire Sorcerer stood before the party.

"So adventurers what have you to say?"

The Cleric raised the sun symbol of Pelor and said,

"In the name of Pelor I say you're a pansy and your mother does chuuls for copper pieces so she does."And the Vampire Sorcerer screamed in agony, "NoOoOoOoOoOoOoO! I'm melting!"

The witty rogue says to the cleric, "Hey, I didn't know insults could hurt that much!"

The priest replies, "When it comes from a cleric of Pelor, it can."

And there was much rejoicing in the nearby town.

This quote is made of awesome and win.
Cariyaga
06-13-07, 01:31 PM Dual-wielding quotes FTW!

Post/Author/DateTime	Post
LadyAlaria 06-05-07, 04:07 PM	I believe your typical fighting cleric or paladin wants to destroy undead, rather than just make them run away. And in the movies when the exorcist-type presents his holy symbol forcefully, the demon is as likely to attack as it is to flee. Ergo, I am considering adding "Provoke" to the list of ways a cleric can use his turning capability. However, Provoking is a more powerful effect than Turning, since it usually will lead to the demise of the victim. Proposed: A cleric who wishes to Provoke Undead may use one of his turning attempts to do so. For purposes of the turning check, the undead creature is treated as though they have two HD of Turning Resistance. If the cleric succeeds in the check, the victim is provoked into attacking the cleric and the cleric's party for the same duration of time as he would otherwise be "turned". If the check fails there is no effect whatsoever. Evil and Neutral clerics may also Provoke in exactly the same manner. Any creatures that may be turned, such as elementals, can be provoked as well. Sound reasonable? Is two HD sufficient penalty, or is it going to break at high levels?
TheAnthroDM 06-05-07, 04:31 PM	Make it into a divine feat maybe? :thinks: Provoke Undead[Divine] You are able to use the power of your deity to provoke undead into attacking you. Benefit: By spending two turn undead attempts you can provoke an undead creature into attacking you for a number of rounds equal to your charisma modifier.
Rhialto 06-05-07, 05:23 PM	I'm not quite sure why you'd want to use this. I mean, if you encounter the undead, chances are pretty certain that they were going to attack you anyway. To me, turn undead was intended as a way to give you a fighting chance against overwhelming odds. Imagne a horde of 500 zombies, and the only way to get past them is to turn enough of them to clear a path. ETA: I have seen some variant cleric rules which allow the cleric to use his turn undead ability to harm the undead directly, rather than drive them back. That probably works better for what you are trying to achieve here.
LadyAlaria 06-05-07, 08:44 PM	I'm not quite sure why you'd want to use this. I mean, if you encounter the undead, chances are pretty certain that they were going to attack you anyway. Once you get past the skeletons and zombies, most undead are reasonably intelligent. I try to DM them as such. So my average incorporeal undead spends most of his time inside a marble monument, peering out from time to time. When the party approaches he moans of the party's impending destruction. Then he flits about from haven to haven, using his incorporealness to best advantage and waiting for an opportunity to ambush. If sorely wounded he'll retreat, leaving the party with no way to truly "exorcise" him from the area. And undead aren't the only things subject to turning. [/QUOTE] To me, turn undead was intended as a way to give you a fighting chance against overwhelming odds. Imagne a horde of 500 zombies, and the only way to get past them is to turn enough of them to clear a path. Nothing wrong with that. But it's not the only use for undead. ETA: I have seen some variant cleric rules which allow the cleric to use his turn undead ability to harm the undead directly, rather than drive them back. That probably works better for what you are trying to achieve here. Not really. The specific reason this comes up is that my party's next adventure will require them to remove a wraith that is haunting a mausoleum. Turning is useless - the wraith will merely sink into the ground, safe from further harm. Unless the party can kill it in one round, it will simply retreat when it gets to a certain hit point level. So how can the party succeed?
TheAnthroDM 06-05-07, 08:49 PM	The specific reason this comes up is that my party's next adventure will require them to remove a wraith that is haunting a mausoleum. Turning is useless - the wraith will merely sink into the ground, safe from further harm. Unless the party can kill it in one round, it will simply retreat when it gets to a certain hit point level. So how can the party succeed? To my knowledge turning undead passes through any barrier not specifically geared against it.
LadyAlaria 06-05-07, 09:15 PM	To my knowledge turning undead passes through any barrier not specifically geared against it. So the wraith flees for a few rounds. He'll come back later. The party has still failed to exorcise the mausoleum. And no one is having fun.
TheAnthroDM 06-05-07, 09:50 PM	So the wraith flees for a few rounds. He'll come back later. The party has still failed to exorcise the mausoleum. And no one is having fun. Well this is true. But to my knowledge most undead do not regenerate health so it'll be damaged from the turning. For this particular case I do think that the Divine feat I outlined above could be put to good use, if with some modification as you see fit. This could be exactly what you're looking for.
CrazyOzzy 06-07-07, 01:06 PM	I believe your typical fighting cleric or paladin wants to destroy undead, rather than just make them run away. And in the movies when the exorcist-type presents his holy symbol forcefully, the demon is as likely to attack as it is to flee. Ergo, I am considering adding "Provoke" to the list of ways a cleric can use his turning capability. However, Provoking is a more powerful effect than Turning, since it usually will lead to the demise of the victim. Proposed: A cleric who wishes to Provoke Undead may use one of his turning attempts to do so. For purposes of the turning check, the undead creature is treated as though they have two HD of Turning Resistance. If the cleric succeeds in the check, the victim is provoked into attacking the cleric and the cleric's party for the same duration of time as he would otherwise be "turned". If the check fails there is no effect whatsoever. Evil and Neutral clerics may also Provoke in exactly the same manner. Any creatures that may be turned, such as elementals, can be provoked as well. Sound reasonable? Is two HD sufficient penalty, or is it going to break at high levels? I like the idea LadyAlaria. I see a very good use for it : Undead Creature attacks [INSERT SOFT PARTY TARGET HERE] - Cleric Provokes Undead - Undead Creature attacks Cleric - Cleric tanks Undead Creature and [INSERT SOFT PARTY TARGET HERE] lives. Allow the Undead Creature a Will Save perhaps.
jimpaladin 06-10-07, 11:34 PM	Are you worried that the party will become upset if the undead don't flee? I think it's a good idea, and if you don't want alot of legwork you could use the optional turning in Complete Divine. It does automatic damage to undead instead of "turning" them. This would "provoke" me if I was an intelligent undead. I would track down the SOB that caused pain to my immortal form and show him why he shouldn't mess with me. And like I stated at the top, have the undead "hate" something about the party. you know time of day, certain color or religous memoroblia<sp>, etc. Even state it is unhallowed ground due to the undead being there making the turning harder. I always liked the scene in Salem's Lot when the priest presents the cross forcefully and the Vampire is held at bay. But the priest loses his belief in his religon and the cross slowly fades as the Vampire comes toward the priest.:D Take that mister pc cleric man:cool:
LadyAlaria 06-11-07, 12:32 AM	I like the idea LadyAlaria. I see a very good use for it : Undead Creature attacks [INSERT SOFT PARTY TARGET HERE] - Cleric Provokes Undead - Undead Creature attacks Cleric - Cleric tanks Undead Creature and [INSERT SOFT PARTY TARGET HERE] lives. Very good idea. Allow the Undead Creature a Will Save perhaps. That's one more roll, on top of the two rolls already required. I figure the 2hd bonus ("turn resistance") represents the fact that this is a somewhat more powerful effect, and thus merits a more difficult roll.
Light_Colonel 06-11-07, 09:21 AM	Usually our gaming group deals with annoying incorporeal undead thusly: Initiative Sequence: FighterA Rogue FighterB Undead Wizard Cleric We will assume the situation is like you are describing, it shows up, attacks for a bit, gets wounded and leaves. No problem........ FighterA: "I delay until after the Undead" Rogue: "I delay until after the Undead" FighterB: "I delay until after the Undead" Undead: attacks and/or moves Now, if the Undead is being a jerk and doing the "move into an object and back out" trick over and over, at this point everyone (now going after the Undead) readies for the Undead to move out of hiding and attack/cast at it. On the other hand, if the Undead is still just standing there, everyone attacks/casts, in all likelyhood killing it.
Werral 06-11-07, 07:10 PM	Slowly the mist coalessed and the terrifying form of the Vampire Sorcerer stood before the party. "So adventurers what have you to say?" The Cleric raised the sun symbol of Pelor and said, "In the name of Pelor I say you're a pansy and your mother does chuuls for copper pieces so she does."
Cariyaga 06-12-07, 05:02 AM	And the Vampire Sorcerer screamed in agony, "NoOoOoOoOoOoOoO! I'm melting!" The witty rogue says to the cleric, "Hey, I didn't know insults could hurt that much!" The priest replies, "When it comes from a cleric of Pelor, it can." And there was much rejoicing in the nearby town.
Sunic_Flames 06-12-07, 02:48 PM	Slowly the mist coalessed and the terrifying form of the Vampire Sorcerer stood before the party. "So adventurers what have you to say?" The Cleric raised the sun symbol of Pelor and said, "In the name of Pelor I say you're a pansy and your mother does chuuls for copper pieces so she does."And the Vampire Sorcerer screamed in agony, "NoOoOoOoOoOoOoO! I'm melting!" The witty rogue says to the cleric, "Hey, I didn't know insults could hurt that much!" The priest replies, "When it comes from a cleric of Pelor, it can." And there was much rejoicing in the nearby town. This quote is made of awesome and win.
Cariyaga 06-13-07, 01:31 PM	Dual-wielding quotes FTW!