"Use oversize Weapon" from Titan-Bloodline [Archive] - Wizards Community

"Use oversize Weapon" from Titan-Bloodline [Archive] - Wizards Community

Post/Author/DateTime Post
Sternenschwinge
05-23-05, 02:59 PM I'm playing a half Ogre/ half Goliath (Savage Species 3.0/ Races of Stone 3.5) with the "Titan- Bloodline" from Unearthed Arcana. He is large (Half- Ogre), powerful build (Goliath) and can use "Oversized Weapons".
What Weapon- category can he wield
1. one handed
2. two handed
3. + the monkey- grip feat ?

Any solutions ?
Thanks in advance :)
HailSpork
05-23-05, 04:40 PM I wouldn't let powerful build stack with large size. I mean, powerful build means that the creature is *almost* large and gains some of the benefits. When you mix a large creature and a creature that's almost large, you don't get a large being that's almost huge.
Aside from that, it looks like everything should stack. By 12th level, you could monkey-grip a gargantuan one-handed battle axe and deal 4d6(?) damage for an expected amount of 14. This is very important if you're using psionics and have the psychic warrior power "Vampiric Blade" (which only uses base dice of the weapon). Also important for intimidation.
oracleofbargth
05-23-05, 05:12 PM Well, Half-Ogre lets you start as Large,

Goliath gives you Powerful Build, which lets you act as though you are one size category larger than usual whenever it would benefit your character, so would let you use Huge weapons.

Titan bloodline gives you Use Oversize Weapons, which allows you to use weapons one size category larger than you would normally be able to use, so you can now use Gargantuan weapons. (1 or 2 handed)

Monkey grip lets you use one size category larger of weapon than you can normally with a -2 penalty, so you are now using a Collossal weapon (1 or 2 handed) with only a -2 penalty. Not bad for a technically Large character.

I was searching around, and found another way to get a Large character to use Collossal weapons: http://www.dndonlinegames.com/showpost.php?p=601852&postcount=21

Schmidit
Purveyor of Useless Info
GMT
07:01 PM
05-23-2005
Okay i had to go hunt this one up, it was just an intelectual exercise in how much i could break a single character, and just to freak out a DM.

A Goliath who had been permanatly enlarged, would take him from medium couted as large to large counted as huge. If you take the racial substitution class he can actually grow to huge when he rages. You then take oversize two weapon fighting and exotic wepon proficency bastard sword and use one in each hand. THen just to finish it off you monkey grip both of the bastard swords and you have a huge goliath who is weilding two collasal bastard sword with only a negative two penalty. That my friend is about as broken as it comes.
__________________

If you combine the two, you've got an exceptionally deadly combo. Too bad there isn't a size category larger than Collossal, since by mixing these two, you'd be able to do one or two better.
HailSpork
05-24-05, 12:58 AM I don't buy that powerful build and the large size of being a half-ogre stack. It's like saying that something that's almost large mixed with something large produces almost huge.
It makes sense that it'd stack with enlarge person, since if you enlarge something that's almost large, it becomes that much bigger.
lostone
05-24-05, 08:26 AM I don't buy that powerful build and the large size of being a half-ogre stack. It's like saying that something that's almost large mixed with something large produces almost huge.
It makes sense that it'd stack with enlarge person, since if you enlarge something that's almost large, it becomes that much bigger.I don't see why not. The Goliath can use large sized weapons because they are powerfully built, they have heavilly muscled for their size so using large weapons is easy for them. So if you increase their size with some ogre blood, they're still just as heavilly muscled, why couldn't they still use a weapon one size larger?
HailSpork
05-24-05, 11:10 AM Because the ogre part of them is also heavily muscled. The benefits from powerful build are included in being large sized.

You said it yourself: "they have heavilly muscled for their size".

Powerful build is like having a size category of "medium and a half". You don't mix a M.5 and an L and get an L.5.
lostone
05-24-05, 11:15 AM Because the ogre part of them is also heavily muscled. The benefits from powerful build are included in being large sized.

You said it yourself: "they have heavilly muscled for their size".

Powerful build is like having a size category of "medium and a half". You don't mix a M.5 and an L and get an L.5.Ok, so then with their Goliath blood and half-ogre blood they would be heavily muscled for their size, which is now large. So if they are heavily muscled for a large creature, why wouldn't they be able to easilly wield an oversized weapon the way a normal goliath would? You seem to think their strength wouldn't change, but a large size creature lifts twice as much as a medium sized creature of equivalent strength attribute, so if that scales up why wouldn't powerful build?

Or let me put it this way, if you allow enlarged Goliaths to use their powerful build ability, why not a goliath that is naturally large sized due to a template?
Lord Schpungus
05-24-05, 01:23 PM The problem is, Half-ogre is not a template. It's a race.

And even if you were to combine the two to get a half-goliath, half-half-ogre, you wouldn't get Large (Powerful Build). Let's say a half-ogre has a strength Factor of 8 (totally made up dimension). Then a Goliath would have a Strength Factor of 6. If you make an offspring from the two, you would expect to get a Strength Factor of 7 (half of H-O's SF=4, and half of goliath's SF=3, 4+3=7), not a Strength Factor of 14, like you are suggesting. Descendents have SOME of the qualities and abilities of each parent, not ALL qualities and abilities of Both.
lostone
05-24-05, 01:30 PM I figured he was using a half-ogre template from a dragon magazine. They've made half-everything at some point or another. And being a template it would add ogre characteristics to the full goliath race. In other words the offspring takes after the goliath side as far as powerful build goes, while being large sized, so the powerful build still applies and allow him to count as huge when beneficial.

Edit: Here we go. Half-ogre template, dragon 313. Size is increased by 1 size category, and it retains the qualities of the base creature.

And to quote from the Powerful Build a Goliath gets: "The physical stature of a goliath lets him function in many ways as if he were one size category larger." Bold mine. Not "counts as large size" but "one size category larger".

So if the templated Goliath is large size, he counts as "one size category larger", or Huge.
Ptarmigan
05-24-05, 02:52 PM By the wording, it seems lostone is right - a templated half-ogre goliath would be able to use huge weapons without penalty.

However, I don't think powerful build and monkey grip stack. My reasoning is that both powerful build and monkey grip allow you to use a weapon one size larger than the character. Thus, for a medium creature, powerful build and monkey grip both allow you to use large weapons, specifically. If the wording for either ability stated that you could use a weapon 'one size larger than you could normally wield', I'd say that they stack... but it seems that both abilities are based off the character's size, and not any pre-existing ability to wield weapons of a certain size. So, monkey grip and powerful build would stack with size increases (such as the half-ogre template or the enlarge spell) but not with each other.

I'm not sure about the wording on the oversized weapon ability from the Titan bloodline, so I can't comment on that...
lostone
05-24-05, 03:14 PM I'm not sure about the wording on the oversized weapon ability from the Titan bloodline, so I can't comment on that...It's as the Titan special ability:Oversized Weapon (Ex): A titan wields a great, two-handed warhammer (big enough for Gargantuan creatures) without penalty
oracleofbargth
05-24-05, 04:35 PM Well, in that case, his character should be able to use any Huge weapon with no penalty, would be able to Monkey Grip any Gargantuan weapon with only a -2 penalty, and be able to use a Gargantuan 2-handed warhammer with no penalty.

(Darn, no Collossal weapons, unless he adds in the Racial Substitution Levels for the Goliath Barbarian, or gives him a permanent enlarge.)
Ptarmigan
05-24-05, 04:48 PM Well, in that case, his character should be able to use any Huge weapon with no penalty, would be able to Monkey Grip any Gargantuan weapon with only a -2 penalty

The way I read it, he should be able use any Huge weapon with no penalty (via large size and powerful build) or use any Huge weapon at a -2 penalty (via large size and monkey grip). Basically, monkey grip and powerful build would overlap, not stack, making monkey grip useless to creatures with powerful build. This is just how the rules are written - I don't know if the intention is to let them stack or not.

An enlarged half-ogre goliath would be Huge sized and able to use Gargantuan weapons without penalty. The Wield Oversized Weapon epic feat from Complete Warrior would let such a character treat Colossal weapons as Gargantuan weapons... and this would stack with the effects of monkey grip or powerful build, because Wield Oversized Weapon is written with respect to the absolute size of the weapon, not with respect to the size of the weapon compared to the character's size (as both monkey grip and powerful build are).
oracleofbargth
05-24-05, 05:54 PM Going to the original sources:

Monkey Grip:
You can use one melee weapon that is one size larger than you in one hand. ...

Powerful Build:
A half-giant can use weapons designed for a creature one size larger without penalty. However, his space and reach remain those of a creature of his actual size. The benefits of this racial trait stack with the effects of powers, abilities, and spells that change the subject’s size category.

Well, darn. Although I'd be tempted to house rule that they stack, a strict reading of them says that they really shouldn't.

Now, my next question is whether or not the rules for "Enlarge Person" and the class ability from the substitution level for Goliath Barbarians should stack. (I don't have my copy of Races of Stone with me, or I'd look.) Looks like that will be the only way to get a character to wield collossal weapons.
oracleofbargth
05-24-05, 11:10 PM Well, I just looked it up, and the Mountain Rage ability from the substitution level does not stack with Powerful Build, so the only way for this character to wield a Collossal weapon would be with the epic Wield Oversize Weapon feat.

Unless there is still a rule that would allow a character to wield a one handed weapon one size category too large for him by using two hands...
Masterful_Norg
05-25-05, 01:04 AM Regardless of the final outcome of this discussion I vote that the weapon in question be either a full blade or a falcion. But how exactly would you be able to grip the handle if the diameter wasn't modified and wouldn't even a dagger made for a collosal creature give a reach greater than 5'?
Gnome_Dragon_Disciple
05-25-05, 02:55 AM First, take into account wether or not the character has the strength to carry the weapon as a light load (any more than that and I doubt a person would be able to wield it with any profficiency at all). Second, Monkey Grip implies that the character's hands can grip larger handles (monkey's fingers are much longer than human's when figured as a ratio of finger length to hand size).

That said, someone with Monkey Grip, Powerful Build, and Large size would have hands fairly on par with a gargantuan creature and MUCH larger than your typical large creature's hands.

Now if you really want to cheese it out, you'd take Oversized Two Weapon Fighting from Complete Adventurer with Power Critical (Complete Warrior, I think) and wield +1Gargantuan Keen Scimitars... 3d6 damage each with a 15-20 crit range. Since you'll have to be AT LEAST level 12 to get the Titan ability, you'll also have some money to spend on weapon enhancements like Shocking Burst (3d6 slashing + 1d6 shocking base damage for both scimitars, with a 6d6 slashing + 1d6 shocking plus + 1d10 shocking on a crit). Toss in a good BAB and you'll have 3 attacks per round with your main weapon and, assuming you've got the feats for it, at least 2 more attacks per round with your off hand weapon. Let's say half your attacks hit, rounded down that's 2 hits a round with an average of 28 damage pre-strength mod. Critting one in four times you roll (thanks to Power Critical, your odds are fairly good of confirming), that's more like 14 damage without the strength mod from one non-crit plus another 30 pre-strength from a crit for an average crit/non-crit combo reaching easilly 44 damage.

Now, pulling a strength mod out of my rear, I'll guess about Str 24 easilly given your race and the somewhat high-power nature of the question for a mod of +7. Figuring in some decent luck with two hits (both crits) and both doing above-average damage you're easilly looking at 100 damage in one round at level 12 without anything like, say, power attack, magic items, exotic materials like Deep Crystal from the XPH, Enlarge Person increasing your size and your weapon's size as a result (although the Giant creature type might mean Enlarge Person doesn't technically work on you), other buffing spells like Bull's Strength, and more damage-boosting enhancements on the weapons, or the presence of a Wu Jen in the party who is willing to make you Collossal-sized...

And although the size categories only technically go up to Colossal, it's a regular progression for size and damage increases with size category increase, not to mention stat modifiers with size increases. Cast Enlarge Person on the character in question, and technically its strength would increase by 8, dex would decrease by 2, con would increase by 4, natural armor increases by 3, and would take a -1 penalty to attack and AC (check page 291 of your Monster Manual 3.5). If this same character somehow increased from Huge to Gargantuan, it would gain another +8 str, +4 con, +4 AC, and -2 to Attack and AC, though no further pentalty to dex.

However, at gargantuan size, the weapon's damage can still increase by size categories past Colossal (and would too, with the build above) because the weapon damage increase follows a natural progression. Those scimitars would be 1d6 damage at Medium size or 2d6 at Huge. From Huge to one size category past Colossal (four sizes increased) would make a scimitar dealing 8d6 damage base.

For simplicity's sake, call it Colossal+.
Sternenschwinge
05-25-05, 07:45 AM I figured he was using a half-ogre template from a dragon magazine. They've made half-everything at some point or another. And being a template it would add ogre characteristics to the full goliath race. In other words the offspring takes after the goliath side as far as powerful build goes, while being large sized, so the powerful build still applies and allow him to count as huge when beneficial.

Edit: Here we go. Half-ogre template, dragon 313. Size is increased by 1 size category, and it retains the qualities of the base creature.

And to quote from the Powerful Build a Goliath gets: "The physical stature of a goliath lets him function in many ways as if he were one size category larger." Bold mine. Not "counts as large size" but "one size category larger".

That's the way I build him.
Altough i havn't really come to a conclusion, to what kind of weapons my character will be able to wield, I like to thank you so far for your input :)
So if the templated Goliath is large size, he counts as "one size category larger", or Huge.
It is really helpful.
Greetings, sternenschwinge.

Post/Author/DateTime	Post
Sternenschwinge 05-23-05, 02:59 PM	I'm playing a half Ogre/ half Goliath (Savage Species 3.0/ Races of Stone 3.5) with the "Titan- Bloodline" from Unearthed Arcana. He is large (Half- Ogre), powerful build (Goliath) and can use "Oversized Weapons". What Weapon- category can he wield 1. one handed 2. two handed 3. + the monkey- grip feat ? Any solutions ? Thanks in advance :)
HailSpork 05-23-05, 04:40 PM	I wouldn't let powerful build stack with large size. I mean, powerful build means that the creature is almost large and gains some of the benefits. When you mix a large creature and a creature that's almost large, you don't get a large being that's almost huge. Aside from that, it looks like everything should stack. By 12th level, you could monkey-grip a gargantuan one-handed battle axe and deal 4d6(?) damage for an expected amount of 14. This is very important if you're using psionics and have the psychic warrior power "Vampiric Blade" (which only uses base dice of the weapon). Also important for intimidation.
oracleofbargth 05-23-05, 05:12 PM	Well, Half-Ogre lets you start as Large, Goliath gives you Powerful Build, which lets you act as though you are one size category larger than usual whenever it would benefit your character, so would let you use Huge weapons. Titan bloodline gives you Use Oversize Weapons, which allows you to use weapons one size category larger than you would normally be able to use, so you can now use Gargantuan weapons. (1 or 2 handed) Monkey grip lets you use one size category larger of weapon than you can normally with a -2 penalty, so you are now using a Collossal weapon (1 or 2 handed) with only a -2 penalty. Not bad for a technically Large character. I was searching around, and found another way to get a Large character to use Collossal weapons: http://www.dndonlinegames.com/showpost.php?p=601852&postcount=21 Schmidit Purveyor of Useless Info GMT 07:01 PM 05-23-2005 Okay i had to go hunt this one up, it was just an intelectual exercise in how much i could break a single character, and just to freak out a DM. A Goliath who had been permanatly enlarged, would take him from medium couted as large to large counted as huge. If you take the racial substitution class he can actually grow to huge when he rages. You then take oversize two weapon fighting and exotic wepon proficency bastard sword and use one in each hand. THen just to finish it off you monkey grip both of the bastard swords and you have a huge goliath who is weilding two collasal bastard sword with only a negative two penalty. That my friend is about as broken as it comes. __________________ If you combine the two, you've got an exceptionally deadly combo. Too bad there isn't a size category larger than Collossal, since by mixing these two, you'd be able to do one or two better.
HailSpork 05-24-05, 12:58 AM	I don't buy that powerful build and the large size of being a half-ogre stack. It's like saying that something that's almost large mixed with something large produces almost huge. It makes sense that it'd stack with enlarge person, since if you enlarge something that's almost large, it becomes that much bigger.
lostone 05-24-05, 08:26 AM	I don't buy that powerful build and the large size of being a half-ogre stack. It's like saying that something that's almost large mixed with something large produces almost huge. It makes sense that it'd stack with enlarge person, since if you enlarge something that's almost large, it becomes that much bigger.I don't see why not. The Goliath can use large sized weapons because they are powerfully built, they have heavilly muscled for their size so using large weapons is easy for them. So if you increase their size with some ogre blood, they're still just as heavilly muscled, why couldn't they still use a weapon one size larger?
HailSpork 05-24-05, 11:10 AM	Because the ogre part of them is also heavily muscled. The benefits from powerful build are included in being large sized. You said it yourself: "they have heavilly muscled for their size". Powerful build is like having a size category of "medium and a half". You don't mix a M.5 and an L and get an L.5.
lostone 05-24-05, 11:15 AM	Because the ogre part of them is also heavily muscled. The benefits from powerful build are included in being large sized. You said it yourself: "they have heavilly muscled for their size". Powerful build is like having a size category of "medium and a half". You don't mix a M.5 and an L and get an L.5.Ok, so then with their Goliath blood and half-ogre blood they would be heavily muscled for their size, which is now large. So if they are heavily muscled for a large creature, why wouldn't they be able to easilly wield an oversized weapon the way a normal goliath would? You seem to think their strength wouldn't change, but a large size creature lifts twice as much as a medium sized creature of equivalent strength attribute, so if that scales up why wouldn't powerful build? Or let me put it this way, if you allow enlarged Goliaths to use their powerful build ability, why not a goliath that is naturally large sized due to a template?
Lord Schpungus 05-24-05, 01:23 PM	The problem is, Half-ogre is not a template. It's a race. And even if you were to combine the two to get a half-goliath, half-half-ogre, you wouldn't get Large (Powerful Build). Let's say a half-ogre has a strength Factor of 8 (totally made up dimension). Then a Goliath would have a Strength Factor of 6. If you make an offspring from the two, you would expect to get a Strength Factor of 7 (half of H-O's SF=4, and half of goliath's SF=3, 4+3=7), not a Strength Factor of 14, like you are suggesting. Descendents have SOME of the qualities and abilities of each parent, not ALL qualities and abilities of Both.
lostone 05-24-05, 01:30 PM	I figured he was using a half-ogre template from a dragon magazine. They've made half-everything at some point or another. And being a template it would add ogre characteristics to the full goliath race. In other words the offspring takes after the goliath side as far as powerful build goes, while being large sized, so the powerful build still applies and allow him to count as huge when beneficial. Edit: Here we go. Half-ogre template, dragon 313. Size is increased by 1 size category, and it retains the qualities of the base creature. And to quote from the Powerful Build a Goliath gets: "The physical stature of a goliath lets him function in many ways as if he were one size category larger." Bold mine. Not "counts as large size" but "one size category larger". So if the templated Goliath is large size, he counts as "one size category larger", or Huge.
Ptarmigan 05-24-05, 02:52 PM	By the wording, it seems lostone is right - a templated half-ogre goliath would be able to use huge weapons without penalty. However, I don't think powerful build and monkey grip stack. My reasoning is that both powerful build and monkey grip allow you to use a weapon one size larger than the character. Thus, for a medium creature, powerful build and monkey grip both allow you to use large weapons, specifically. If the wording for either ability stated that you could use a weapon 'one size larger than you could normally wield', I'd say that they stack... but it seems that both abilities are based off the character's size, and not any pre-existing ability to wield weapons of a certain size. So, monkey grip and powerful build would stack with size increases (such as the half-ogre template or the enlarge spell) but not with each other. I'm not sure about the wording on the oversized weapon ability from the Titan bloodline, so I can't comment on that...
lostone 05-24-05, 03:14 PM	I'm not sure about the wording on the oversized weapon ability from the Titan bloodline, so I can't comment on that...It's as the Titan special ability:Oversized Weapon (Ex): A titan wields a great, two-handed warhammer (big enough for Gargantuan creatures) without penalty
oracleofbargth 05-24-05, 04:35 PM	Well, in that case, his character should be able to use any Huge weapon with no penalty, would be able to Monkey Grip any Gargantuan weapon with only a -2 penalty, and be able to use a Gargantuan 2-handed warhammer with no penalty. (Darn, no Collossal weapons, unless he adds in the Racial Substitution Levels for the Goliath Barbarian, or gives him a permanent enlarge.)
Ptarmigan 05-24-05, 04:48 PM	Well, in that case, his character should be able to use any Huge weapon with no penalty, would be able to Monkey Grip any Gargantuan weapon with only a -2 penalty The way I read it, he should be able use any Huge weapon with no penalty (via large size and powerful build) or use any Huge weapon at a -2 penalty (via large size and monkey grip). Basically, monkey grip and powerful build would overlap, not stack, making monkey grip useless to creatures with powerful build. This is just how the rules are written - I don't know if the intention is to let them stack or not. An enlarged half-ogre goliath would be Huge sized and able to use Gargantuan weapons without penalty. The Wield Oversized Weapon epic feat from Complete Warrior would let such a character treat Colossal weapons as Gargantuan weapons... and this would stack with the effects of monkey grip or powerful build, because Wield Oversized Weapon is written with respect to the absolute size of the weapon, not with respect to the size of the weapon compared to the character's size (as both monkey grip and powerful build are).
oracleofbargth 05-24-05, 05:54 PM	Going to the original sources: Monkey Grip: You can use one melee weapon that is one size larger than you in one hand. ... Powerful Build: A half-giant can use weapons designed for a creature one size larger without penalty. However, his space and reach remain those of a creature of his actual size. The benefits of this racial trait stack with the effects of powers, abilities, and spells that change the subject’s size category. Well, darn. Although I'd be tempted to house rule that they stack, a strict reading of them says that they really shouldn't. Now, my next question is whether or not the rules for "Enlarge Person" and the class ability from the substitution level for Goliath Barbarians should stack. (I don't have my copy of Races of Stone with me, or I'd look.) Looks like that will be the only way to get a character to wield collossal weapons.
oracleofbargth 05-24-05, 11:10 PM	Well, I just looked it up, and the Mountain Rage ability from the substitution level does not stack with Powerful Build, so the only way for this character to wield a Collossal weapon would be with the epic Wield Oversize Weapon feat. Unless there is still a rule that would allow a character to wield a one handed weapon one size category too large for him by using two hands...
Masterful_Norg 05-25-05, 01:04 AM	Regardless of the final outcome of this discussion I vote that the weapon in question be either a full blade or a falcion. But how exactly would you be able to grip the handle if the diameter wasn't modified and wouldn't even a dagger made for a collosal creature give a reach greater than 5'?
Gnome_Dragon_Disciple 05-25-05, 02:55 AM	First, take into account wether or not the character has the strength to carry the weapon as a light load (any more than that and I doubt a person would be able to wield it with any profficiency at all). Second, Monkey Grip implies that the character's hands can grip larger handles (monkey's fingers are much longer than human's when figured as a ratio of finger length to hand size). That said, someone with Monkey Grip, Powerful Build, and Large size would have hands fairly on par with a gargantuan creature and MUCH larger than your typical large creature's hands. Now if you really want to cheese it out, you'd take Oversized Two Weapon Fighting from Complete Adventurer with Power Critical (Complete Warrior, I think) and wield +1Gargantuan Keen Scimitars... 3d6 damage each with a 15-20 crit range. Since you'll have to be AT LEAST level 12 to get the Titan ability, you'll also have some money to spend on weapon enhancements like Shocking Burst (3d6 slashing + 1d6 shocking base damage for both scimitars, with a 6d6 slashing + 1d6 shocking plus + 1d10 shocking on a crit). Toss in a good BAB and you'll have 3 attacks per round with your main weapon and, assuming you've got the feats for it, at least 2 more attacks per round with your off hand weapon. Let's say half your attacks hit, rounded down that's 2 hits a round with an average of 28 damage pre-strength mod. Critting one in four times you roll (thanks to Power Critical, your odds are fairly good of confirming), that's more like 14 damage without the strength mod from one non-crit plus another 30 pre-strength from a crit for an average crit/non-crit combo reaching easilly 44 damage. Now, pulling a strength mod out of my rear, I'll guess about Str 24 easilly given your race and the somewhat high-power nature of the question for a mod of +7. Figuring in some decent luck with two hits (both crits) and both doing above-average damage you're easilly looking at 100 damage in one round at level 12 without anything like, say, power attack, magic items, exotic materials like Deep Crystal from the XPH, Enlarge Person increasing your size and your weapon's size as a result (although the Giant creature type might mean Enlarge Person doesn't technically work on you), other buffing spells like Bull's Strength, and more damage-boosting enhancements on the weapons, or the presence of a Wu Jen in the party who is willing to make you Collossal-sized... And although the size categories only technically go up to Colossal, it's a regular progression for size and damage increases with size category increase, not to mention stat modifiers with size increases. Cast Enlarge Person on the character in question, and technically its strength would increase by 8, dex would decrease by 2, con would increase by 4, natural armor increases by 3, and would take a -1 penalty to attack and AC (check page 291 of your Monster Manual 3.5). If this same character somehow increased from Huge to Gargantuan, it would gain another +8 str, +4 con, +4 AC, and -2 to Attack and AC, though no further pentalty to dex. However, at gargantuan size, the weapon's damage can still increase by size categories past Colossal (and would too, with the build above) because the weapon damage increase follows a natural progression. Those scimitars would be 1d6 damage at Medium size or 2d6 at Huge. From Huge to one size category past Colossal (four sizes increased) would make a scimitar dealing 8d6 damage base. For simplicity's sake, call it Colossal+.
Sternenschwinge 05-25-05, 07:45 AM	I figured he was using a half-ogre template from a dragon magazine. They've made half-everything at some point or another. And being a template it would add ogre characteristics to the full goliath race. In other words the offspring takes after the goliath side as far as powerful build goes, while being large sized, so the powerful build still applies and allow him to count as huge when beneficial. Edit: Here we go. Half-ogre template, dragon 313. Size is increased by 1 size category, and it retains the qualities of the base creature. And to quote from the Powerful Build a Goliath gets: "The physical stature of a goliath lets him function in many ways as if he were one size category larger." Bold mine. Not "counts as large size" but "one size category larger". That's the way I build him. Altough i havn't really come to a conclusion, to what kind of weapons my character will be able to wield, I like to thank you so far for your input :) So if the templated Goliath is large size, he counts as "one size category larger", or Huge. It is really helpful. Greetings, sternenschwinge.